Thanks for the thought experiment AtwaterLouse but I was hoping someone would build a case based on the details of the project. I am curious if the estimated taxes from the casino will pay for the city's support such as policing the area, maintaining the roads etc. What affect will 'having something to do downtown' have on the other options in the area? If you go to a theater and a casino, you will notice that the demographic is similar. Will this casino draw out of town visitors or are we just shifting money from the arts scene? What are the ramifications of having a major institution downtown that is technically not subject to the laws of the city, county and state? What affect will this have on the city's political scene? The Indian casinos in California are some of the biggest contributors to political campaigns in the state, take a look to see what they just got in return: http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_6249344?source=rss Note that in addition to the power of money, they also have the power of the vote, yet the citizens of Buffalo can't vote in any Seneca institution.

JohnnyWalker brought up a good point about jobs. Is there anything else I am missing though? It just doesn't seem like a net benefit to me and the potential downsides are huge.

Why would we need to be objective?

Gen P, I agree that nobody needs to look at this or anything objectively, but (1.) Keith seemed to be asking for objective pos/neg assessment and my response was toward his questions (2.) Some of those who subjectively oppose it don't just come out and say that. They present their subjective opposition using objective arguments, then when people point out fallacies or logical contradictions they say it doesn't matter.

Your subjective argument against it is upfront and I wouldn't try to change your mind. And again, I'm not saying the casino is a net overall positive. In fact I dispute that such a determination will ever be able to be made. It will be considered positive by people who enjoy going to casinos responsibly and by people who get jobs there and any dependents they support, landlord who rent to them, etc. (That's why my first answer to Keith's question about what are the positives was to say go ask the customers and employees.) And sure, it will be considered negative for others such as those who have gambling issues and their dependents, creditors, etc. or those who have moral objections. On the other hand, other gambling tempations already exist that could create similar problems for these same people. How to balance those complex things out? Impossible. But obviously there's a significant number of Buffalonians, thousands, who want to go to a casino, and hundreds or more others who will voluntarily apply for those jobs, so I don't see any point in singling out casino gambling as something to be legally forbidden when on the same street people can buy alcohol, lottery tickets, etc. or travel short distances to OTB, Hamburg Slots, etc., or gamble on the internet.

Biniskiewicz, Thanks. I'd want a free market soultion in preference to the NYS-Senecas deal as well, but that's not what the anti-gambling crowd is wanting. Far from it. They'd be opposing a general legalization of casino gambling every bit as strongly if not more so. Free market soultions seem very rare in NYS for anything. Govts here prefer the special deal approaches, and a majority of voters seem to not object much at election time.

In the case of liquor stores and bars and even OTB the tax money goes to the state, where it (presumably) goes toward the common good.

Hmmm.

http://www.secinfo.com/d11MXs.z1Qkb.d.htm Pursuant to and subject to the terms of the Compact, the Nation must currently pay 18 percent of its net slot machine drop to the State, with that percentage growing to 25 percent in December 2010.

http://www.empire.state.ny.us/press/press_display.asp?id=57 The State would receive a portion of the proceeds on a sliding scale of 18 percent for the first four years, 22 percent for years 5 to 7, and 25 percent for the remainder of the compact.

Twenty-five percent indefinitely will go to the NY state for those "presumably" good purposes you spek of. Twenty-five percent of money that people *voluntarily* spend, even though the state is not paying to build the casino, not paying to manitain it, not paying the employees, not paying the security.

Twenty Freakin Five Percent. Compares quite comparably to NYS taxes paid by bars and liquor stores, wouldn't you say? And that doesn't even count the NYS income taxes to be paid by the vast majority of employees who are non-Senecas.

Undoubtedly you will point to other competitors (N Falls, Ont., Vegas, soon Erie PA, Bethlehem, etc. and the internet) and say: there's your market! But it's not a free market and it's not a market within a region. Many will go to the casino here who cannot venture, for practical reasons, as often to the falls (much less Vegas).

It's not all out-of-town though - local options/competitors include various OTB in Buffalo, the slots at Hamburg, and probably others I can't think of. Internet gambling is certainly avalable here, as well as other expensive addicting temptations that send money out of town - cable TV for example.

a casino can have a disproportianately adverse impact on other competitive industries--restaurant and bar, in particular--because casinos often discount food and beverage dramatically in order to keep patrons at the tables longer.

Yeah, it's a jungle out there. Stores sell beer cheaper than bars. Bars often sell wings cheaper than LaNova. Strip clubs have naked chicks that regular bars don't. The Sabres charge crazy high beer prices and don't let you bring your own inside. Inconsistency all over the place. But most people (myself included) won't suddenly start doing most of my dining/drinking out at the casino. Some people will. It will all have to sort itself out, and it will. People who hold the 1000 or so new jobs will themsleves sometimes go out to eat/drink and might be sick of the casino so could be new customers for existing places. Overall it will likely make the restaurant/bar industry a little harder to be in. Life's a bitch sometimes.

Agree totally with your last paragraph about legalizing basically everything. Pretty much anything involving consenting adults shouldn't be a crime at all. With the freed up prison space, people who commit violence even once or steal repeatedly should be locked up and the key thrown away.

I thought about this some more and I still don't get it. Can someone in the pro-this casino camp please explain to me why this is a good idea? This isn't just an invitation to get jumped on either, I am truly interested in reading a reasoned response that explains why this casino is a good idea.

The jobs argument is a compelling one. Like I said, I wish Buffalo all the best, and I hope it works out.

AtwaterLouse, the reason people don't have to ask the same questions about bars and movie theaters is these pull in a small fraction of the money that the casino will pull in. This casino might not look like a lot now, but according to the plans, this will make a huge impact in the future. I am just trying to figure out if the impact will be positive or negative. So can you answer that?

I wouldnt really oppose this project if buffalo got more out of in in terms of taxes. i cant remember exact numbers but i read a news article on day that compared this casino to others around the country we are getting boned. all in all i guess its better than what was there before and the renderings of the real thing do look pretty cool.

It's just penny and nickel slots. There are like 7 quarter machines. No free booze as far as I could tell. No glamour here, just working class blokes tossing back a few bucks. I'll wait for the real thing if they ever build it.

Wow... great its here and its packed full of tourists from Cheektawaga. Never liked casino gambling ( I've been once it doesn't excite me) but I'm not completly against it. I just can't get over the fact that we're stuck with the Indians their crap and all the baggage that comes along with them.

When we have our neighbor to the South, Pennsylvania who has just recently legalized gambling. Shortly after that Las Vegas Sands Corp. announced their intentions to build a casino resort in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania on OLD BETHLEHEM STEEL LAND.

We're getting the short end of the stick with this one monetarily and attraction wise... would you rather have a blue shed? Or a building with a huge red feather on the top of it... do you know what that says to a visitor?

The best thing to do if nys residents wanted legalized gambling would have been to open it up to private investors.. instead of a corny ass indian casino we might have had something done by the Las Vegas Sands Corp and with our proximity to the falls don't even try to tell me that it wouldn't of happened.

Any questions or example.. see the Venetian.. and then the Seneca Niagara or the "Buffalo Creek"

I'm not anti-gambling; I'm not against some jobs; I'm not against something else to do downtown; But I also see that Buffalo will get virtually nothing tax-wise. As for spin-off development: Niagara Falls has a built-in tourism base and there is still nothing happening there. So what's the big fuss about?

outstanding... the native americans tell their opponants to stick it. Good for them.

Good for Buffalo.

Does anyone think that for Buffalo to have bars and liquor stores is a good idea? I thought about that some more, and I just don't get it. Seems to me bars and liquor stores can cause a lot of problems. And the city and state get hardly any of the money spent at them, certainly not the majority of the money. In some states the government owns at least the liquor stores but not here. Hmmm so let's see here, we all agree there's lots of potential problems caused by these bars and liquor stores, and not much of the money Buffalonians choose to spend at them (to the extent they even have a choice) goes to the government. In fact millions of dollars spent in bars and liquor stores leaves Buffalo and goes to out of town beer and liquor companies and distributors. Plus there's all those problems with abuse, addictions, irresponsible behavior, etc. Probably many checks cashed, and things pawned. So maybe Buffalo's bars and liquor stores should all be closed immediately. Can someone in the pro-these bars and these liquor stores camp please explain to me why these are a good idea? This isn't just an invitation to get jumped on either, I am truly interested in reading a reasoned response that explains why having these bars and these liquor stores is a good idea.

Casino benefits for Buffalo include 1000-1500 jobs with a starting salary of around $32,000 - $38,000 per year + a 401k plan + health insurance. How many local bars are that generous with their employees?

tanker..I think Im in good company ....from those who think gambling is wrong, to those who think the senecas are thugs, to those who dont believe in turning our downtown to a semi-autonomous reservation, to those who see the pitfalls of gambling and various addictions and vices.

tanker this is not a virtuous industry...this is an industry of vice owned and managed by a semi-autonomous indian reservation (thugs) that like to play their cards without concern for non-indians for the surrounding community.

tanker....dont worry I wont be taking the corner away from you or your children. LOL, I know that jacking off customers is good practice for the slot levers and daddies gotta play them slots. Why dont you be a normal father and instead of pimping...take them out for ice cream and fireworks this 4th!

Hey- look at all those senior citizens losing their disposible income. What glamor! What big time economic development. All that and Buffalo gets 2 cents for evey dollar spent on the slot machines (that's 8% of 25%, the City's share). What a great bargain! We'd get more spin-off from a bingo parlor.

If the Senecas expected to sell casino gambling on the basis of glamour and coolness, the photos in today's Buffalo News will cure anyone of that notion. Did everyone see the full profile shot of the old, pot-bellied guy in the dumpy white t-shirt? If anyone hoped to argue that gambling attracts hip, educated tourists with beaucoup bucks, this picture demolishes that fantasy. Thank you, Buffalo News, for providing an excellent public service for once.

Casino gambling is no economic development tool, it is just an efficient way to separate pathetic, overaged, overfed, and undereducated locals from their pensions. Hope all of you casino fans are ready to support your parents after they bankrupt themselves.

You are right Spaulding97, just think of all the new businesses that will open nearby: check cashing shops, bond agencies, pawn shops, liquor stores.....

If it was my backyard, I would be a NIMBY. As it is, good luck Buffalo, I hope this works out.

I'm there this weekend.... Sweet!!!!!!!!!!!

It looks pathetic but it is in some way a perfect fit for a big part of our community. Its sad.

General P, I agree and I think same thing when I see idiots bombed out of their minds on Chippewa, and other idiots slowing lines to a halt in Wilson Farms to buy their lottery tickets. Pathetic from my point of view, but yes as you say in some ways seems perfect for people who choose to do it. In fairness, there's also a few arts scene aspects I notice once in a while that I would never consider being involved in myself and sometimes the word pathetic comes to mind. To each, his or her own.

Is there anything else I am missing though? It just doesn't seem like a net benefit to me and the potential downsides are huge.

Keith, yes. What you're missing is that you're applying a bunch of criteria to the casino that apparently don't you do to any other Buffalo entertainment business such as bars, liquor stores, and others. The only way to logically address your concerns is to compare their applicability to those other business types. If you don't consider such comparisons, then all you're left with is just back and forth between bumper sticker arguments: "Casinos bad!" "Casinos good!", etc. Anyone who wants to do an economic analysis to prove casinos are beneficial can do that, and anyone who wants to do an analysis to prove the opposite can do that too. Way too much possible subjectivity in how data is looked at and how various complex factors are weighted.

I am curious if the estimated taxes from the casino will pay for the city's support such as policing the area, maintaining the roads etc.

As was pointed out, the city is not providing free ongoing security at the casino. Yes there could be cost from having to arrest people when incidents occur, but do you ask that same question when a new bar opens? Will the new bar generate enough extra taxes to pay for the city's extra "support"? I doubt you do ask that. Why not? And if we extend it to the whole set of bars in Buffalo, many hundreds, no doubt there's a lot of extra cost to the city to deal with the frequent occasions police are sent to bars. But you wouldn't use that as a reason to consider not allowing the bars to exist, would you?

What affect will 'having something to do downtown' have on the other options in the area?

Do express that same concern when a new theatre or gallery is opening? Why not? Do you even ask what effect would the new whatever-it-is will have on other options in the area? Or do you just figure the marketplace continuously sorts itself out as people voluntarily decide what they want to do with their time and money? If it's the latter approach, then why should the casino be looked at any differently? If some people decide to go to the casino instead of other options, then that implies those particular people are being offered something they like better, right?

Will this casino draw out of town visitors or are we just shifting money from the arts scene?

Is the above question ever a concern to you when a new restaurant, club, gallery, bar, or theatre opens? Does anyone worry about if it's just shifting money from the existing arts scene? Seems to me BRO always celebrates anything new opening and never raises a concern that it's just shifting money from the existing arts scene (even though every new thing that opens must shift money from existing options - shrinking city and all). So perhaps they just figure people will decide what they want to support, and that over time everything will work itself out in the marketplace. Why should it be any different for a casino? And who is to say the "arts scene" has any moral or ethical superiority over a casino? If you personally prefer the arts scene over a casino, then wonderful - support what you prefer. I'd probably agree with you in most cases but I have no interest in banning others from having a casino nearby just because I won't spend much time there. But if another Buffalonian prefers a casino over the arts scene, he or she can support that instead of, or in addition to the arts - however they want to allocate their time and money.

What are the ramifications of having a major institution downtown that is technically not subject to the laws of the city, county and state?

People should take that into account before deciding whether to go there. Not sure why "downtown" is all that relevant in the above issue. Same legal situation is present at casinos in Niagara Falls and on reservations, as well as at stores on reservations. I'm not happy with the whole situation we have in the country with the tribes having separate laws, etc. but whatever - that's how history played out and here we are. Would be better for the legislature someday to just legalize casinos outright for everyone but it didn't happen that way.

What affect will this have on the city's political scene?

What effect to bars have on the city's political scene? Actually they have a decent amount in terms of political contributions. If you ever look at the list of donors to mayoral and council candidates you'll see bar and restaurant owners well represented on that list. But I've never heard anyone use that to imply bars are bad for the city because successful bar owners can have disproportionate impact on the city's political scene.

It just doesn't seem like a net benefit to me and the potential downsides are huge.

Same can be said for many types of private sector businesses that are opened using non-public money. From individual perspectives such as mine or yours, many such businesses may not seem like a net benefit. I am not arguing it is a net benefit. I'm not even sure how to objectively determine whether or not it is. That argument seems pointless to me either way. The main thing I think is relevant here is that a portion of the population has shown they want to have the option of voluntarily engaging in casino gambling. On what basis should that portion of our fellow Buffalonians not be allowed to have access to a casino here to meet their desired entertainment preferences when at the same time we do allow the people here who enjoy drinking to have very wide access to bars and liquor stores without ever raising your great big list of concerns about those, and never raising the objection about whether bars have more downsides than upsides, or whether they are harmfully shifting money from the arts scene or having disproportionate police needs or political impacts?

al-alo - I agree with you. If we have a casino, it should be city or state-owned.

Hey, when the Senecas smarten up, they'll realize that prostitution and drugs are LEGAL on their land and capitalize on it! They can even shoot American Eagles or dump toxic waste because there are no laws against those activities either.

How do I become an Indian and join the clan?

Why doesn't the casino capatalize on the Holdem Poker craze and set up a room just for local guys playing home games? It would be something different that your friends smoky living room - a bit glitzier maybe, with food and drink service.

Could this be so bad?

shorten it up. the interior plan of the casino may be fine. but most of the exterior is just average if you take away the office tower. almost like they spend more money on that and then just leave us with an under modeled building. sure nice colors with the drawing.. but take away the effects and its as plain as a polar bear.The Staten Island Ferry Terminal is more exciting to look at.

hey Chris69 is that your IQ. Some little piece of shit no doubt who has the nerve to call other people trash . Asshole. Do you have a job yet? When you get one and pay taxes , then you do with your money what you want. But don't ever think you have a right to tell people who do work how to spend their money.

the reason people don't have to ask the same questions about bars and movie theaters is these pull in a small fraction of the money that the casino will pull in.

Say what??? If you mean that any one bar will pull in "a small fraction" of money the casino will pull in, then yes of course. But if you're implying the casino will pull in much more money then the total spent here on alcohol (in all bars and stores), then you're way off. Alcohol will rule by far. Best quick estimate I can make on that is the casino will pull in well less than half of money we spend on alcohol here - probably well less than a third, maybe less. Still a lot of money but if it's really even that successful then won't that just mean it's what people decided they prefer?

Or even if somehow the casino does take in much more money than total alcohol sales here as your comment might imply, which won't happen, but if it did then again won't that simply indicate people here decided they'd rather spend more money on casino gambling than alcohol. It's their money, so shouldn't they spend it on what they want?

How would that be either positive or negative? Since it's the result of people's voluntary choices, it would just "be".

I am just trying to figure out if the impact will be positive or negative. So can you answer that?

By the way, a question: applying your way of framing things as "positive or negative", I'm curious whether you would you say that the impact of bars in Buffalo was positive or negative in 2006?

See, there's no reasonable objective way to answer a question like that is there?

Anti-alcohol people could find many ways to argue it was very negative and would focus on health issues, liver damage, bar fights, domestic violence, DUI, lost productivity, etc. And pro-alcohol people could make many positive arguments - jobs created, social opportunities, fun, beer is good - lots of facts like that.

Likewise with the casino, arguments of whether positives outweigh negatives or vise-versa will never give an objective satisfactory result. It's just too complex. Best to err on the side of personal freedom.

Is the impact of chicken wings positive or negative?

Health experts point out the fat and health damage so they vote negative. Restaurant owners would point out jobs created so they'd vote positive. Who breaks the tie - the chickens? Well they don't get a vote the poor things... poor delicious things.

well....another mafioso thug...has just moved to Buffalo and their called the Senecas

and as far as casino patrons...their just pure selfish trash deprived of any real moral or ethical backbone....go ahead give your money to mafioso thugs so you can yank a lever....

YOH....YANK THIS....you morons!

The senecas arent going to do anything beneficial for Buffalo except take your money (that you might have saved, re-invested or spent at a local tax paying business) and use it to buy, bribe and threaten you and your local elected leaders!

LOL....one can only hope that its their daughter they see prostituting the corner as they walk in or their child in gambling addiction counseling. Since thats where they are spending their money....it should be their progeny that suffer the consequences.

Chris69, so you like to make fun of Senior Citizens who gamble. I think you ought get some Kahones and go down to the casino and tell that directly to the customers going in. Stand up for what you believe in , instead of hiding behind a keyboard and a fake name like the snivelling coward that you are.

Booooooooooo Boooooooo Boooooooooo

As far as police services, the Senecas have contracted with the city of Buffalo to provide for 4 uniformed and 1 plain clothes police officers. The city won the bid over the Sheriffs dept and The state police, The money will be used to eventually hire 4 or 5 additioal police officers for the city.

This future casino is not the dream catcher a piece of architecture should be. It’s a disappointing attempt at capturing the excitement of casino gaming. Lots of the focus seems to be on the office tower with the rest of the lot split almost equally for parking and for gaming.(even a cubist knows that’s a no no) Everything seems flat and just about the opposite of what a casino should do. It looks more like a high-end bingo hall. The non casino areas of the plan are interesting with the office tower and gardens that extend inside.(this is the strong point) They also do well with the private drive, but nothing seems to be imposing enough, and i question whether the designer has any experience with casinos?

Unfortunately the people that fight against casinos do it for a reason. If this casino is a redneck version of the international space station, of course it will fail buffalo. (People don’t want that [among a greater list]) But the design is about as exciting as an American dollar bill. (has the same kind of rhythm also). Why don’t you make something that has a more inviting façade and less like a California school. I can’t wait out check out that parking garage. Is the price tag 125 million? Sounds like someone is eager to make a big profit.

LOL Maybe it will be you selling your little a@# on the corner, #$%@head.

I think the suburbs just moved a little further out this morning.

and it does provide a big answer for people who say "what is there to do downtown" we will see where this takes us, it could be a catalyst for development or a big money sucker. as always i'm optimistic. where is the location of the casino? how far is it from where the waterfront project is?

Sorry - Need to spell check Outstanding... the Native Americans tell their opponents to stick it. Good for them.

Good for Buffalo.

Sweet. The casino is about as classy as the trailer homes on the reservation. Nothing says Buffalo like spreading the dirty poverty stricken reservation into down town...as if the east side isn't bad enough. Maybe the Senecas will figure out a way to sell cheap gas and cigarettes at the casino shed to really maiximize revenue. This casion project is rediculous and insulting to the city.

That brothel massage parlor across the street from the casino site is one place that will probably see an increase in business now that the casino has opened. lol

For some reason I don't think Chris69 will be heading to the casino.... me either.

Anyone wanna go into business with me opening a Dollar General next door??

Can anyone tell me what the difference is between the slots machines at one casino and another. still trying to figure out why people were waiting so long, such an agonizing wait, for this day while casinos already dot our landscape. Anyone?

Keith, by saying "this casino" are you asking only for explanations of why people might favor the NYS-Senecas deal specifically? Or if NYS had legalized non-Indian casinos like NJ for example, would you still be asking the same question? I think the reason they did it via Indians was for political feasibility, beacuse non-Indian casinos just couldn't get approved by the state legislature. Or is some or all of what you just don't get is why any casino should be in Buffalo regardless of Indian or non-Indian?

man did you go overboard with your extrapolation . what about jerks like me that think its a crummy design and offers no aesthetic value? The decision to have a drink for social reasons is hardly the problem of this project. You can talk about the phenomena of freedom of choice and cram it down our throats, meanwhile our lungs collapse from the hodgepodge like pressure of non winning aesthetics, all of their concepts refute like an eye patch over some vestibule.

For all of you that are complaining about the casino's aesthetics, wake up and smell the coffee. It's intended to be the TEMPORARY casino, until they can move ahead on the $125 million PERMANENT casino. MJS

it does provide some temporary entertainment for some people.But that design is one big flat line.

hey tony, what about a family dollar too?