Buffalorising has been redesigned.

The good news ... Rocco does it again!

The bad news.... "32 loft units FOR RENT".

Homebuyers who have checks in hand and wish to invest in the long term future of Buffalo, denied again. Indifferent transients coming in with two suitcases, first months rent, last months rent and security welcomed with open arms.

*sigh*

Rocco Termini has a very positive history and this should be no exception. The Webb building has some great character and it's re-use will be good for Buffalo. Keep up the success!

Goooooooooooooooo, Rocco! Can't wait until February (the planned start date for the Graystone). Rocco, you're my hero!

Great news. Rocco has a great track record and totally "gets it" when it comes to good urban development.

Right now developers are still getting their feet wet with the rental market. Hopefully someday soon the downtown housing market will mature into a greater mix of rental and condo units.

thesportsroadtrip,
So you think all apartment dwellers are the scum of the earth?

I wonder how much Carl paid for that building? Buying buildings on the cheap and letting them rot quietly is certainly paying off for him. I bet he even regrets knocking down the Harbor Inn now. (Nahh. Probably not.)

I know this doesn't answer the condo buyer's lament entirely, but I'll repeat my previous suggestion. Why don't a bunch of people who want to have an equity stake in something, but can't find the condos they want, get together, form an LLC or something, buy a whole building and divy it up among yourselves. Who knows, maybe Carl's got some other gem he's hiding away somewhere.

oh they will eventually convert those apartments into condos....

my question for rocco with all his experience with old historic buildings is why isnt anyone seeking his counsel for rebuilding historic wharf buildings around the Western Terminus of the Erie Canal.

Now thats someplace that really needs his expertise....and ideas

Forgive the snarkiness, but not only is it great to see the light at the end of the tunnel for the Webb, but it also gives me pleasure to watch someone show up Carl Paladino. He could have done this and reaped the proceeds and praise, but, no, he was bound and determined to demolish it for more d*mned parking. Mr. Demolition By Neglect, meet Mr. Profit From Preservation.

A little info. on the project, and in general rehabilitations of National Register listed buildings or buildings within an NR district. Rocco is using the 20% Historic Preservation Investment Tax Credit which requires a building to be income producing, condo conversion is not eligible for the credit. After five years the building can be converted to condos without facing recapture of the tax credits.

Perhaps these apartments COULD be converted to condos, but why bother? As $2,000 + a month apartments, that's immense cash flow for Signature and Rocco. I'm with roadtrip - the lack of condo development in Buffalo is astounding and disheartening. I love that there are dozens of new housing options in and around downtown, but until permanent residents start moving in there won't be the call for the every day services and businesses the downtown core truly needs.

And you'll forgive me for (again) not drinking the Rocco Termini Kool-Aid. I love what he's done on Ellicott and hopefully with this building, but until he rectifies his in-fill disasters on the East Side I'm going to refrain from handing over my first born to a man who helped contribute to the blight of our fellow Buffalonians just a short distance away.

Although I love the new living spaces that are populating downtown, until condos go up our downtown will never be able to live up to its potential. We have enough thousand dollar rentals!!!

the pierce bldg. on main has YET to lease one of their units. talk about PRIMED for condo conversion.......

Despite the lack of downtown condos there are still options for all those waiting with checks in hand to purchase... In the West Village, on my street alone there are at least two houses for sale and two or three more that are available but not officially on the market.

I would love to see some people come in and buy these 19th century homes, roll up their sleeves and be a part of the revitalization downtown. Some new energy would be a welcomed addition.

but as soon as you get condo owners you get people like at the "landmark" condo tower off of Gate circle, all of a sudden you have people more interested into their return on investment than the wellbeing of the community overall. Once housing stopped being a home and started being a commodity everything hit the crapper. For me lets renovate and rebuild and get that critical mass of people in downtown before condo's come along.

There is still plenty of room for growth so don't get too disheartened guys, this is all just the beginning.

PS there is nothing inherently wrong with renters, they are people too ;-)

Have any urban explorers been able to get into the Greystone building to take pictures? Would be interesting to see what condition the interior of that structure looks like....

Justin:

No offense but no one want's in on a block with 5 houses for sale. It portends decline.

Reply to point above --- I don't wish to denigrate renters and if I come across as mean spirited, my humble apologies.

32 new living units at Webb translates into 60 new people living downtown, whether owners or tenants that's a good thing.

I spent the whole day last summer doing the housing tour, and bumping into other tour participants, I kept hearing the same refrain - potential new city dwellers wanted to be tethered to a mortgage payment and not a rent payment.

Nonetheless, new developments coming on the market for sale soon we hope - Cobblestone Loft, new Waterfront Village tower, 700 block. Man oh man, would be nice to see construction fencing, shovels in the ground, and sales offices with pretty balloons and hot real estate chicks selling units. For now these developments are mere concepts much ballyhooed on Buffalo Rising.

sbrof - the fact is, you're not going to "renovate and rebuild and get that critical mass of people in downtown" by throwing up rentals that go for anywhere between $1,000 and $2,000 a month. The population of Buffalo - which, let's not forget, is declining by the day - simply cannot sustain it. Look at the new apartments at the Pierce Building on Main Street... not one unit leased. Same with the Johnson & Sons building on Elmwood - the one-bedrooms are leased entirely, but the pricey, two-bedrooms on the third floor are all vacant from what I'm told.

I wish Plaza Group and Rocco the best in that area with these pricer, more upscale rentals... but time will tell as to whether or not they can actually achieve a significant percentage of rented units at those prices.

I also wonder how you propose to achieve a "critical mass" of people downtown BEFORE condos come along. Shouldn't their development be part-and-parcel with apartment development? You can't create a critical mass with renters only. You need to give people the option of buying, which in turn would drive the need to develop more essential services in currently undeveloped sections of the city. THEN you develop more rentals and condos and start creating that critical mass. Let's face it - people who own have a vested interest in improving their surroundings, whereas people who rent can just pack up and move on.

I know if I rented at Elk Terminal I wouldn't have a problem driving everywhere else for dry cleaning, groceries, etc. because what the hell... its only temporary, and when I buy my own place I'll be sure to move to an area where I can walk to everything. But I know if I owned in the Cobblestone Lofts and made that area MY HOME and not just a place I was passing through, I'd be pushing for all kinds of development that would make that corner of the city LIVEABLE.

I agree that these rentals at their current prices are not going to last forever, and we should bring ownership into the mix asap. Many renters choose their home as wisely as a home buyer and often they are the ones that will choose the urban lifestyle. That lack of investment means they actually can enjoy living someplace that feels fluctuation's in the housing market.

How many home buyers are going to choose a place that they feel is still a risk? People who buy homes now a days want a sure fire return on their investment. Until we can change the image of downtown for those people most will just continue to buy into the only place they think they can make money from. (suburbia)

I do think there are some that will take the risks and choose the lifestyle of city living and getting those people into condos is really important to this shift, but if everything on the market now was only condos I don't think you would fill half as many as have already been filled. I could be wrong, but I think we still need to prove to people that we are on the rise and that Downtown is a viable option for investment. After that has been accomplished there will be the flood of interested condo owners. There are still too many people with cold feet when it come to city living.

If there were so many people who want to pay top dollar for a condo I don't see why there wouldn't already be developers clamoring to build for them. If you pay 150K / 200K+ per unit I am sure that would be enough money to finance a building renovation without the need for historical tax incentives and the like. So either the market isn't ready or the developers hired the wrong people for market studies.

Baby steps, remember 6 years ago there was only a couple places to live in downtown proper.
US Census 1990 = 1,518 people
US Census 2000 = 1,936 people
US Census 2010 = 4,000 - 5,000 - 8,000 ? ;-)

sbrof...the question you posed below is a great one.

If there were so many people who want to pay top dollar for a condo I don't see why there wouldn't already be developers clamoring to build for them?

Side note on downtown apartments...Everytime I drive by the small building at Broadway and Ellicott that was renovated, I wonder why the apartments aren't rented(at least some of them?) and where the retailer is that is going to occupy the first floor.

Sally -
No offense taken - some see the glass half empty - others half full.

Ken and sbrof - your argument is a flawed one. If people held true to the "if the demand is huge, where is the supply" argument, we never would have seen Elk Terminal, the Sidway, the Ellicott Lofts, and the Belesara/io (the one on Main Street). It takes a little vision and a stomach for risk to pull of a housing "revolution." It worked out well for those offering rentals, who's going to step up to the plate and offer condos?

And I'm not just talking about the $250,000-300,000 and up units the Cobblestone Lofts and refurbished Statler are likely to offer. I'm talking about "starter" condos in the $150,000 range. Last I checked, the old St. Mary's School for the Deaf condos were COMPLETELY filled.

sally, look before you leap. Instead of slamming an area due to housing available, that happens to be mostly owned by a family moving out of state, why don't you walk around, review the housing stock and rise of an area? It's easy to criticize when one has no idea what they're talking about.

One more question:
Are you "L" in sheep's clithing?

I agree W.Z.A.S. that someone does need to break the market more, to prove you can buy into downtown. There are condo's in CityCentre Tower now (full?) There still must be something holding the developers back otherwise why wouldn't they follow suit. Perception? Law? Cost? Crime (real / perceived)?

Where are the St Mary's School for the Deaf condos?

Isn't the development that is supposed to be going in near the Sidway supposed to be built as condos? Maybe they will help.

The historic Webb Building is a beautiful architectural gem that should have never been allowed to deteriorate to its current condition. I am very happy to see that restoration and repair work is advancing on this fine downtown landmark which will bring more high quality housing opportunities into downtown. A very high quality adaptive reuse project indeed. God bless Rocco Termini for saving another historic landmark.