Buffalorising has been redesigned.

3,000 square feet and you actually have the audacity to actually call it a department store!?! For crying out loud my house is bigger than that.

I think Anna was using "Department Store" in the sense of a mixed variety of goods offered under one roof, rather than the typical size that usually accompanies the term. Down, girl...

Don't worry if Sally had anything good to say it would be a secret.

Termini has some nerve, building new apartments, shops, and service without knocking something down for lots of free on-site parking! If this keeps up, downtown's hardwon title as the surface lot mecca of western New York is seriously in threat! This could spell a disastrous collapse in the demolition and paving industries! I am, like, *so* sick of all these obstructionists standing in the way of progress!

Hey Sally-

If you have nothing good to say.... I read almost all of the comments on this site and you almost never have a positive thing to say.

It may be time for you to look for a new city to live in. Buffalo seems to be really letting you down. Maybe you would be happy in say... Siberia

Thanks Rocco. I can only hope your lead gives other developers the inspiration to do similar projects. Buffalo has made some great progress the past 3 years. Looking forward to a great downtown again and hoping it's sooner than later.

let's see some retail, restaurant, or anything on the 700 block...there is a pretty good amount of foot traffic.

This is a great opportunity to provide decent places to shop for the new residents of downtown.

A friend of mine rents a loft on Oak Street and said that there are still quite a few vacancies and quite a bit of turn-over in the building. Most people complain of the lack of everything in the area.

I applaud this project! I will ensure that I stop in to each of the stores at least once a week when they open, and will spread the word with others at HSBC. Maybe we could make this a weekly lunch break stop during the spring, summer and fall?

I have the utmost respect for Rocco - he is single handedly turning our city around.

Our political efforts should be directed more toward assisting people like Rocco, who are passionate about Buffalo as opposed to a Bass Pro.

The pace is quickening, it is a matter of time before we see real growth.

I can't wait to be able to do all my shopping downtown again. I miss the department stores and other great retailers. Glad someone like Rocco and others are bringing it back. Congrats!

One thing I do believe is missing (and I do miss) is a Music Store. Like a FYE, Virgin, or....A place to buy cd's and dvd's. That would be a great addition to downtown retail....Just a thought.

Mr. Termini.

Thank you for all your efforts and successes in rebuilding downtown. The hope you offer us is one of the reasons young people will return to Buffalo. You do us, the residents of Buffalo, much honor. Keep up the good work!

-John

Egad Sally what would make you happy? Are you Rick from Columbus?

what a smart, smart man... this is a great idea. exactly what downtown needs to prove itself to business owners on a trial basis.

Rocco, Rocco, Rocco...

Thank you for the foresight and dedication to our city. You "kick against the pricks" and get things done that many have been told are impossible. Maybe you should be heading up Economic Development for the city. That way, all the little guys will have a chance to grab a piece of the pie.

Let me say one thing to the naysayers:
When someone who has been and continues to be obviously successful in their endeavors and continues to consider not only the needs of their tenants to assure that success, but sees it as a venture to bring up the quality of life for others in the area, then we should celebrate it.

We've seen and heard from Issa who seems dedicated to create a visual model that can become his own statuary for his image and likeness, but the plans that Rocco has devised, started, completed, and continue to come to the forefront of the needs of downtowners (and I include West Villagers in that count) are exactly what we need as a community of growth and prosperity.

Personally, I would like to see Issa's Tower relocated to the area around the HSBC Building where it would fit better, not detract from the architecture of the government sector, and become a gateway for these types of highrises while keeping the nature of historic districts in tact.

As an active member of the West Village area, I would say we are truly blessed with the well thought out plans Mr. Termini provides us and all of downtown.

what clever marketing. this would have the feeling of a department store. [and sally...who stated how large a department store is?]

As a new resident of Buffalo (moved from Vegas), I see nothing but signs that this city is about to explode with growth! So many of the long-time residents are very bitter and should probably moved to Vegas and relax in the sun! Why did I move here from vegas...a JOB opportunity in BUFFALO! Growth? YES!

I love Buffalo. But you cannot create a reality just by saying that we are a prosperous growing city over and over. You need facts to back it up -facts which are not there - yet. You also cannot call a collection of kiosks a Department Store and expect to have any credibility. This site likes to pretend that things are coming along great in Buffalo yet our population continues to decline every year. Optimism is a great thing but blind optimism just makes this site look ridiculous on so many occasions. BR needs to add a dose of realism to it's outlook. Not negativity, but realism. They need to call a 3,000 sq foot store what it is - a very baby step, not a Deapartment Store. They need to call these small 20-30 unit loft conversions what they are baby steps that may help SLOW the population loss. They are sure not large enough to turn the losses into a gain - at least not yet. So quit pretending we are what you wish we were.

Back to this incubator concept- How does it work? Is it similar to what you'd see at an antique mall? Each retailer has a space and there's one cashier? Or does each need to be present to staff their space while the 'incubator' is open for business?

Sally,
As much as I may hate seeing the petty back and forth on your negativity, I am prompted to respond to your comment. I think one of the reasons people come to BR is for precisely what you deride, the unbridaled optimism. Where else can you hear people appauld the virtues of neighborhoods long since forgotten? Where else can you really feel the yearning for a better Buffalo? Don't get me wrong, Donn Esmonde isn't horrible but there is only so many times I can look to him for my Buffalo-ra-ra fix. This is a place of diverse ideas and many voices but united by the optimism of a better tomorrow.
I don't read all your comments so I can't comment on that but to deny all that is positive going on by calling all of it "baby steps" may just be a little overboard. I get it, you're cautious.
My father often remarks that 35 years ago they were talking about a new bridge and they still haven't done anything - he takes this as a reflection of who our community is. I would like to focus on the present, finally people are moving forward and developing things. This is no longer the time to be cautious - it has run its course. Where the reality of a new tomorrow begins is within the optimism championed here.
John

but you have to admit that things have been changing, for the better. There are more renovation or new build projects going through city hall in the past 3 years than there was in the prior 25 years combines. That has to mean something?

The cities tax base has grown not shrunken and while no trend is instantly reversed I don't think it is fool hearted to celebrate the good. If you talk to ANY mayor, or urban planner that has been through a city renaissance, every single one of them always says exactly that. You need to take baby steps and then cheer about it the whole way, otherwise people "not in the know" will have no idea anything is happening at all. It is more of a perception game than most people like to admit.

I think we are a city that is on the rise, are we some booming metropolis that can't control its growth.... nope, should we want that? probably not. We need to understand that slow but steady growth is good. Explosions of businesses that bubble from nothing always bust. I would rather see us slowly and sustainably grow than just create a bigger fall in the next recession / depression.

For the first time in many decades we seem to be on the right track to be what we want even if we are not there yet.

BCB great point. Sally aka "Debbie Downer"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Downer

Unfortunately, Sally's shiny disposition can be found on other local blogs as well. Sally's "realism" is based on what appears as an anti-Buffalo attitude and does not contain anything constructive - just constant negativity. Instead of seeing the "realistic" attempts of Termini to rebuild downtown retail through this incubator she chooses to nit-pick over terminology. She denies that there are encouraging signs that are reason for optimism and instead points out the well known fact of Buffalo's continued declining population.

BR

sbrof - I do admit that things in a small part of the city are getting better. Downtown seems to have bottomed out in the mid 90's and is starting to make a small comeback. The turnaround is so small and tenuous however that there exists the possibility that it will not take hold. It will take several more years of small progress before we will know that a turnaround has happened. When I see that the Oak Lofts are having difficulties it worries me. i fear that the comeback may be maxing out.

sally is not being a debbie downer.. she's just speaking the truth.. these things are baby steps that do little to stopping the population drain. it's great that new lofts open but the cost is less people in the elmwood area, (have you seen how many apartments are available in the artvoice? it's at historic levels) most aren't coming from the suburbs or out of town.
all these baby steps are fine, but until a major employer sets up shop in our fair city, that's all will ever have.. baby steps, leading to baby size progress..

Sally writes "When I see that the Oak Lofts are having difficulties it worries me. i fear that the comeback may be maxing out."

You fear? ... or you HOPE....

Something tells me you wouldn't be happy with our success.

i love how any thoughts of realism on Buffalo Rising, get attacked as negativity.. sounds like George Bush's America.. attack the people who speak out! Just because someone doesn't see it the same way you do, doesn't mean they're wishing failure..

I don't mind realism. Syruppy optimism nausiates me. There are too many rose colored glasses worn by BRO readers seeking refuge from negativity. But Sally, you're not being realistic when you say that maybe a very small part of buffalo has gotten a little bit better in baby steps.

Chippewa 25 years ago was skid row.
Hertel is doing well.
Elmwood is more upscale today than 25 years ago; more vibrant, more desirable, more life and money in it.
Count all the new buildings being developed downtown.
Look at all the housing built near downtown in the last two decades (not the apartments of today, but the despised vynil victorians where slum stood not long ago).
Can you say Medical Campus?
Allentown is stronger than 10 years ago.
Delaware Ave. is better than 15 years ago.
Main Street is poised for rebirth in the 500-1200 blocks and it's not slowing the progress of more development around town.
The Waterfront is poised for great things and one can recall a time when even the condo developments there now were questioned.

So, Sally, be critical. 3,000 sqaure feet do not a department store make. But remember that department stores continue to flea cities, as has happened recently in Pittsburgh (that's why there are target and home depot and more big boxes to come on Elmwood where a quarter century ago there were derelict factories). 3,000 square feet is a baby step. But the transforation of Rocco's block is not a baby step. That's a real step. And give Rocco some love: he has done much there.

Be critical. But don't deny progress. There has been a lot.

getting all hung up over wording and syntax instead of embracing and sharing ideas is a huge impedement to positive growth, in any situation. "department store" was used to describe the open setting with varied merchandise and departments (which, incidentally, if you look it up is the definition). stop nitpicking and start using your mind to think for yourself.

I think frequently that people don't feel buffalo's downtown is "vibrant" unless it's like other cities -- Giant Macy's/Nordstroms type-stores, etc. etc. To me, this is a measured, reasonable step, extremely realistic, but the type of building block that can become the basis of change, as the Calument Arts Cafe was to Chippewa.

And frankly, these are the most appropriate steps a city like Buffalo can take. I'm in no hurry for us to generate a major brand-specific downtown retail core, as bad as that may sound in terms of tax revenue. To me, that's more "silver-bullet" thinking. Instead, in the 4 years I have been home, I see the number of small, resident-owned business as the backbone of our commerce in the areas people look to most. What if we took all the money we were thinking about giving to one company, and created a thousand-plus $10,000 start-up or improvement low-cost loans? How many new businesses would we see then? (yes, I know, what % would fail, blah blah blah..)

It's a values call on Sally being "realistic" or "negative". As long as the thinking doesn't hinder anyone reaching for something new, i say it's fine. The reason why BRO fills a psychological need is that sometimes people just need to believe, to see things differently, to make change. Personally, I'm happy to be a part of telling the other side of the coin.

You are right there has been a lot of positives in the downtown area in the last 2-3 years. But there was also a massive amount of downtown development in the 70's (HSBC's 40 story building, the Hilton, the bus station, the convention center etc) and there was a lot of development in the 80's as well (BOA building, Key Centre, Pilot Field, Crawdaddies, Waterfront village etc.Goldome Centre, City Condo's etc) in fact the dollar value adjusted for inflation for the 70's or 80's far exceeds anything going on downtown now. Yet the City continued to decline in wealth and population. Given that I think it is unrealistic to think $40-50 million and a hundred or so apartments signifies a total rebirth.

Right on Anna. Some people just don't get it. Anywho, in regards to Sally, if she is so negative in thinking, why is she even reading BRO in the first place? This site is intended to show the PROGRESS and HAPPENINGS in Buffalo. If Sally wants to hear the negative stories, she can read the Buffalo News or watch Channel 7 News.
I do believe our downtown is changing for the better. So many things are happening, changing and more to come. Almost everyday, something new is announced. All very exciting.

Sally, do you live in the suburbs? I ask this because that is the exact rhetoric I hear from my uninformed suburban friends.

Marilyn, You said...

"Personally, I would like to see Issa's Tower relocated to the area around the HSBC Building where it would fit better, not detract from the architecture of the government sector, and become a gateway for these types of highrises while keeping the nature of historic districts in tact."

IF this ever gets built and that is a BIG IF, it would be a GREAT thing for downtown and you are already nitpicking over where it should get built?

This wouldn't be a NIMBY issue would it???

"This site is intended to show the PROGRESS and HAPPENINGS in Buffalo. If Sally wants to hear the negative stories, she can read the Buffalo News or watch Channel 7 News."

wow.. so no actual conversation on what is wrong.. according that quote, we should be here to blow sunshine up each other's arses

LA ; I have lived in the City since 1982, I grew up in Pa.

LA - I hear more negative rhetoric from friends in the city than those in the suburbs. Why throw stones at the suburbs and castigate an entire population of potential supporters because they choose to live in the 'burbs.

I moved my family to the suburbs when my oldest son was in 3rd grade, we won't return to the city until the Public schools are brought up to par with their suburban counterparts. The suburban schools are not perfect, but at least the teachers appear to care about my children's well being.

That said, I am still a huge backer of the city, both in donations of time and money to a wide variety of causes.

I believe that the city is probably a few years away from recovery, but every step and set-back counts. Sometimes the setbacks are more important than construction or relocation of a business.

Keep the faith in the City of Buffalo and Western New York as a whole. We should work together to improve this entire area, it won't happen if we focus on one neighborhood at the expense of another.

Closing your mind on the suburbs is just as bad as being a suburbanite who is fears the city and could care less if it crumbled to oblivion.

Sally, the difference with the development from the 70's-90's is that most of the developments were considered "Silver Bullets", most were not mixed projects but stand alones which still do'nt create much activity and not one of them included living spaces to create that 24/7 destination we are doing today. Also, withen thoses decades, Buffalo was a big joke, tourism was worse, and people were simply afraid to come downtown to shop and walk around- image problem. I know it still lingers today, but it's far better safe than it was 10 years ago. People are now walking thier dogs along the Pedestrian Mall (You would have never seen that 5 years ago), parents with strollers (suburban yuppie type- just for an idea) are now walking along Chippewa St in the day time (who would have pictured this a few years ago?) Soccer mom's hanging out downtown at Spot, Salsaritas and more. ..Point being , people are finally coming back Downtown. Developers are taking notice and it's easier to sell buildings here than it was not too long ago. We have a market and people want it. Only the next censious report will show us just how many moved away and how many have actually stayed.

Also Sally, the large developments from the 1960's -early 80's included tearing down multi-blocks around them to create the "Shovel Ready" sites. Which even today, some are either STILL parking lots or have been turned into mini parks (like on South and North Division Street). We are not doing this anymore, we are now creating underground parking, building on these empty lots and leaving the surrounding blocks alone.

After they do the population count for Buffalo at the end of this decade...it is likely to see a population increase. Thousands of new people are moving into downtown Buffalo with a substantial increase expected following the large project completions. Population decline may be over. What is that a sign of?

Former Buffalonian....

Don't lump all city schools and teachers based on your limited experience. We have had a WONDERFUL experience in the Buffalo Public Schools. Dedicated teachers who care tremendously and administrators who know each and every pupil.

I see what my kids can do compared to their suburban kin and my kids run circles around them.

Not to turn this to a school debate. But that is the kind of suburban knocking that many of us cannot stand. Your limited experience is not the experience of many of us.

Its funny because someone said in another topic that east aurora was a role model for development. Now this building has alot of character. sally great work today.. though i am young enough to remember that most of our problems were from external influence, and maybe modern department store does not mean what you think it is.

i think its crazy to complain that some people want to be happy, why not try and understand why they are making these actions instead of gussing how awful it will be

go sabres!

What makes or breaks anything is people. It is all of us.

People who take the low risk-low effort route end up with viynl sided plywood houses and cinder block buisnesses surrounded by asphalt. It reflects a movie set in all the permanence it gives off. Seeing that it is a majority of society, thats what much of our metropolitan area looks like. No team effort, no desire to create something great. Just scurrying further and further out like rats. Being detached, they win the honor of pointing fingers back at the places they moved out of, dubbing those places as failures, not themselves. They are no different from the big bad corporations they proclaim to be pure evil and only self interested. Ditching their history and neighborhoods as quickly as the corportions are throwing aside thier jobs.

Like the high school in-crowd, they rather ridicule those who who bust thier asses and take a risk at saving and rebuilding something worthwhile. It being easier to knock something down than taking the risk of investing oneself in something that may fail, or require some effort and faith.

Critism/realism has its place. People should stand up when they are pushed around or being taken advantage of. But a lot of the "realism" here comes off as older siblings trying to discurage thier younger ones from attaining goals that they themselves could not.

No one on this site is blind to the problems around here. No needs reminding of what a vast majority of the city looks like, and most likely what the first ring suburbs are going to start looking like. All we have to do is take a walk or drive. But all of this is a failure of our own doing, on an individual level. What we support, what we demand, and what we accept. If we accept selling our house every 10 years and moving further out, well then this is what we end up with. Hope you enjoy it. But just because you left your crap behind, doesn't mean its not yours.

For the minority that find this unacceptable, and not only want to see change, but be a part of it: this is a great place to share our triumphs, defeats, and future challenges.

These 30 yrd old jabs, sterotypes, and rehashed negative comments are just as nausiating and pathetic as the 30 yrs of stagnation around here. Go a head and blame the politicians, but take the time to reaccess what you actions have done to help anything.

Dear "it's good to be realistic":

Just so you know, the population in the Elmwood Village has been steadily INCREASING since 1990. It is the only neighborhood in Buffalo that can lay claim to that (of course with downtown gaining new residential units, it is now increasing in population). Since 1990 the overall population of Buffalo has decreased over 35,000. Elmwood has held its own- so before making claims that Elmwood has lost population people check your facts.

By the way, I am an urban planner with over 8 years of experience using census info.

WoW! NIcely put MJ!

BCB how are thousands of people moving into the 150 or so newly created (since 2000) living spaces downtown. Get real the most recent cencus est showed a city population drop 0f 13,000 since 2,000. source www.census.gov

sbgal - What school do your children attend? I would like to look into that and will consider moving back if the schools are truly on par. Not to make this a debate about the Buffalo Public Schools; however my child's school had 3 different principals in 4 years; the teachers failed to schedule or maintain teacher conferences, and were rarely available to discuss my child's progress. When confronted, one teacher actually said "I don't have to listen to you, I answer to the union". That is a direct quote. I brought this up to the new principal who stated that she was new on the job and did not want to do anything to "upset" the teachers. Granted, this took place over 5 years ago; however speaking with friends from our North Buffalo neighborhood, the situation hasn't changed. Maybe things are better in South Buffalo. Let me know and I will look into it.

My limited exposure to the Buffalo Public Schools was enough to make me move to Clarence Schools, where I am able to correspond with principals at both of my kid's schools via email or phone whenever needed, teacher conferences happen regularly, and the entire culture of the school appears to be educational based (as opposed to the control and maintain culture of the former school).

My wife and I would love to move back into the city; as long as the educational opportunities are there.

The Buffalo School system today is not much different from how it was 40 years ago. They don't care about the kids, only a paycheck, have way too many people on the Board of Education for a city of our size. Over use of city cell phones? GET YOUR OWN FUCKING CELL PHONES! City owned vehicals? GET YOUR OWN FUCKING CAR! This is how spoiled the local officials are here, take advantage of the tax payers (US) and do so little, not knowing what exactly it is they are suppost to be doing as far as their job. Also, remember, we have over 400 Erie County Politics working when NYC has just over 200. DOES THIS MAKE SCENSE TO ANYONE?

Former Buffalonian,

I have kids at Tapestry Charter School and know other families with kids at Olmsted #64 and Bennett Park Montessori. All of us are very happy with our and our childrens' experience. I'd love to find out how Elmwood Village Charter School is doing. The more good schools the better in Buffalo the better IMO. Just like at any school - public or private - you need to be active in your child's education by learning about the different teachers and trying to steer them accordingly. High school presents tough choices currently. As far as high schools, I only know that a neighbor has one kid at City Honors and is extremely pleased. Tapestry has started a high school and is adding a grade a year (currently only 9th grade). I can't speak to any other high schools.

I like that my kids are exposed to things growning up in the city that I was only infrequently or not at all as a child. They are growing up to love the city and appreciate what WNY has to offer. They also understand that it's not all sunshine and roses, some people are very very poor and that they have a responsibility to help out in their own small way. Clarence is a top notch school district. You have to do what you feel is right for your family and your kids.

BR

population in the Elmwood Village has been steadily INCREASING since 1990. It is the only neighborhood in Buffalo that can lay claim to that (of course with downtown gaining new residential units, it is now increasing in population). Since 1990 the overall population of Buffalo has decreased over 35,000.

Fact Checker's numbers back up Sally's point about Buffalo's progress being baby steps, since the one growing area is a relatively small part of Buffalo. I'd estimate the "Elmwood area" is about 5% of Buffalo in area and population - perhaps even less.

Even if one adds in the downtown/Main and Hertel areas as successful, there's still huge chunks of Buffalo, by far the majority of area and population, in real decline... Masten, Fillmore, Broadway, Walden, Bailey, Riverside, even Univ Heights (streets such as Winspear and Minnesota are becoming very run down with much growing street crime).

Ken, I certainly agree with the capitalized "IF" you used regarding a build on Issa's tower. However, I did use the word "personally" when describing what I would "personally" like to see regarding the placement.

I've always considered "NIMBY" as a term used when something is being planted in a 'hood and the folks just don't want it there due to stereotypes, but I guess it can be used rather universally. I don't consider my personal opinion of a 40+ story glass cathedral jutting on high and out from historic buildings under 25 stories NIMBY-ism, but I guess there's an opinion that it can be.

However, look at the view from all angles. If this 40+ story structure does get built, it would seem to stick out like a sore thumb in that area. However, it would be a great compliment to the HSBC building due to its height, a strong welcoome to folks coming in to town from the south or southeast, and maybe encourage additional structures like it to group together similar to Dallas and other cities like it.

But, let's face it, in an area comprised of 25 or so stories, it would seem a bit ostentacious. (sp)

Though i agree that it would be an exciting drive,im not sure if we want all that tower traffic to one side near the harbor. I would like to see a rendering coming from the south down the 190. The tower would really help make the middle feel bolder.

Dear Starbuck-

The Elmwood neighborhood is easily 10 to 12% of the total Buffalo population. The census tracts on the west side of Elmwood Avenue are some of the most densely populated in the city.

My point was that in areas that are mostly revitalized and walkable, people will not only keep the population steady but it actually will increase.

I was on the census.gov website yesterday and saw a very startling number. In one estimate of population for Buffalo it showed the 2005 population to be 256,492. This was vastly lower than the 279,745 number on most of the other published reports on the website. If that lower number were true, that would mean a loss in population of 71,631 between 1990 and 2005 or 11.54 people a day. 1990 population was 328,723.

Copy and paste this link for the 256,492 population estimate:
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=&geo_id=16000US3611000&_geoContext=01000US%7C04000US36%7C16000US3611000&_street=&_county=buffalo&_cityTown=buffalo&_state=04000US36&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=160&_submenuId=factsheet_1&ds_name=null&_ci_nbr=null&qr_name=null®=null%3Anull&_keyword=&_industry=

I am going to be spending a little time on the Census.gov website to see how their numbers are achieved.

If you click on my red "Fact Checker" name in my post above it will take you to the Census.gov link that is shown in my post.

In a previous comment I said that there were two separate 2005 estimates for the population of Buffalo. One showed 256,492 and the other showed 279,745.

The 256,492 comes with this footnote on the census.gov website:

Note: The 2005 American Community Survey universe is limited to the household population and excludes the population living in institutions, college dormitories, and other group quarters.

The lower estimate therefore does not show the entire population of Buffalo. Unfortunately, it still shows a population loss of 48,978 between 1990 and 2005 or 8.95 people a day.

I look forward to the 2010 census numbers to see if there is a decrease in the loss of population or if the area is still losing significant population.

The NY Times has a general article on population gains and losses for the entire US including NY State:
Arizona Displaces Nevada as Fastest-Growing State
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/22/us/22census.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

Are charter schools part of the public school system? No one has given me a straight answer to this question.

Yes, they are part of the public school system.

Curious - I'm not sure what you mean by the public school system. The schools are public (i.e., open to all city residents and not subject to tuition). I'm fuzzy on this part but believe that these schools can receive their charters from different places (state - SUNY, or city - BPS). I think all city charter schools, except Enterprise Charter School, are chartered at the state level and therefore not subject to supervision/oversight from Superintendent Williams or the Buffalo School Board or BTF collective bargaining agreement.

Hope that helps.

Fact Checker, Thanks for clarification and hope you keep reporting more of what you find from the census info. Facts and perspective are sorely lacking at times around here.

About whether my estimate of 5% and yours of 10-12%, obviously it depends on what constitutes the "Elmwood neighborhood". You can include more area than I did, that's fine I'll accept your definition. But my point still holds, in that 88-90% of Buffalo is outside of this and the vast majority of that (both geographically and population-wise) is unfortunately by no means having a rebound, renaissance, or whatever word we want to use.

As Jen mentioned, census figures reported today are interesting and put NY state in the bottom 4 out of 50 for the recent population trend.

And within NY, upstate is doing much worse than downstate so that puts us even furhter down.

Also, the NYS Labor Dept today reported that for job growth over the past 12 months Buffalo/Niagara is at the very bottom of metro urban areas in NYS. In fact, they said we are the only one of those regions that had a net loss of total jobs over the past year while we've been ummm... "rebounding".

So here we are, the worst performing job market in a state that itself is very close to last place in population growth.

None of this is meant to deny the development successes downtown, but in the big picture we should admit that at the moment Obnoxious Sally's point about baby steps sounds pretty accurate.