Buffalorising has been redesigned.

Oppps, that dark brick photo (last-bottom) is not the Webb Building, this is the empty building on Huron St. Unless Rocco is renovating this one too ( I can only hope)

I saw Rocco this morning surveying his most recent creation when I was on the patio with my coffee. Its great to see this progressing, but I lost my favorite view =(

More great news for Buffalo, we're getting there!

Room rocks! Pay them a visit. The owners couldn't be nicer.

Can we stop with the Rocco love fest? First, the guy is an employee of Burke Builders, not the Donald Trump of the Genesee Village.

Second, the "key to the city" yap has to stop. I applaud what he and Burke have accomplished in this neck of the woods, but lets not forget the in-fill garbage they built - and which is now rotting away - on the East Side.

This site is BUFFALO Rising, not "I Can Spend $1200 A Month On Rent" Rising. Key to the city my ass.

Gene, thanks.

Memo to Rocco.... instead of "for rent, $1500", can you conceptualize, "for sale $150,000"???

Let the love shine on. I want to live in the Webb building next to a brewery!

Haters like William Zabka All-Stars make me ill. I don't give a good goddam who Rocco works for or that he may have been responsible for some poor development choices in the past or that his units are for rent instead of for sale. Here's what matters: long before Bashar Issa came into town, Rocco Termini was capturing people's imagination with the prospect of cool downtown living. He wasn't the only one. Ben Oblitz, Chris Jacobs, Eran Epstein and others were and are right there with him. But Termini is, right now, the king of cool downtown living and he's helping to create residential density with development after development.

Units for sale will come. But I hope rents stay high. A critical mass of urban professionals and hip empty-nesters with enough disposable cash to drop on high rents? Think of what that does for retail development. Think of the lifestyle infrastructure they'll need and can afford.

And for people who can't afford high rent, there's IS Lofts (very cool Termini project but already completely occupied) and Holling Place.

I BOW DOWN to Rocco!

Hater Hater, re-read my post. I never complained about the cost of these rentals or the lack of for-sale properties downtown. Others did. I actually agree 100% with the bulk of what you posted.

My only point was that we stop deifying a man who - while he's been successful in this neck of the woods, WHICH I HAVE ALREADY COMMENDED HIM FOR if you bothered to read my original post - has negatively impacted the already-poor conditions on the city's East Side. If this were his entire body of work, I would be right in line with the rest of you. Unfortunately, it isn't and I'm not.

I took umbrage ONLY with the "key to the city" talk; not the rents, not the lack of condos. The point is merely that anyone worthy of a key to the city would not bask in the glow of these upscale projects while allowing sub-standard ones to languish a short distance away. I personally have nothing against Mr. Termini or his employers and hope for the sake of Buffalo every project they undertake succeeds beyond their wildest dreams... I just think it silly to praise-to-the-heavens a man/company responsible for the pathetic conditions they have created just up the street.

Again, this is BUFFALO Rising. Mr. Termini and his employers have done a FANTASTIC job in the Genesee Village (or whatever we're calling it now), but I'll save my "keys to the city" for someone who doesn't help Buffalo with one hand, while smothering her with the next.

Very impressive..... I especially love the double-sided fireplace. For years I've been wanting to add a room on to my house just to get a double-sided fireplace. The way Buffalo has been progressing some of us won't know the city in a few years. I hardly knew it from the slideshow.

The quality of these places leave alot to be desired. In five years they will look tacky and old. Poor quality and workmenship. As for the tenants paying $1200 to $1500, they are all filled with multiple occupants. Lots of bartenders, waitresses, etc.. Whatever the name of the building at Main and Goodell is called has been pretty much destroyed by this. You can take em out of the suburbs.....

William Zabka All-Stars, I get a little carried away (I'm the first to admit it) when I spend a day looking at these projects. When I think of the Greystone and the Webb Building being restored I can hardly believe it. I have stared in awe a these types of buildings always wondering when (and if) the day would ever come... and when that day arrived would they meet a wrecking ball or an enthusiast.

The fact that Rocco pursued a day care center for the Webb Building (and landed one) shows that he understands the needs of the city. I'm merely pointing out these key developments that will help to shape our downtown. I will refrain from giving away any more keys to the city. Maybe a key to Buffalo Rising?

Queenseyes - I appreciate the response, thank you.

Believe me when I say I share your optimism regarding these and other projects, and I applaud what Rocco and others have done with what others have called "nothing." I, too, stare in awe at some of these seemingly "lost" structures and think "what if." The fact Rocco and others have taken that "if" and run with it gives me a sense of optimism I believe you share.

I only worry we are so starved for this kind of development that we're willing to give a free pass to people with the blemishes on their resume Rocco and Burke have (had?) because they are targeting the demographic we all believe will lead to Buffalo's rebirth, while those blemishes still harm the rank-and-file Buffalonian.

Keep up the good work... Buffalo is truly rising!

Does it concern anyone that the urban renaissance is practically devoid of an equivalent renaissance in JOB CREATION!

Does it concern anyone that the urban renaissance of $1200 apartments for rent is happening in a city that cares more for public servant union extortion of kickbacks, salaries and benefits than they do in educating kids to be good community citizens and in educating kids for jobs that would allow them to afford those $1200 apartments.

We have a wonderful little racket here with public servants (government) subsidizing the poor citizens and illegals instead of those downsized or outsourced out of jobs....while the police ask for more money to fight a crime wave their losing...while the teachers ask for more money to accomplish decreasing standards of education.

What a cycle! Birth them in poverty then educate them in ignorance and then arrest them when they fail to survive in the economy.

And the average Buffalonian property owner cant even manage the simplest demonstration of civic pride by planting a tree much less maintaining their home.

Until the government is downsized and these unions are broken...Buffalo should change its title from the city of good neighbors to the city of broken dreams (stolen dreams civil servants)

No Buffalo public school graduate is ever going to work at Roswell or the Bio-Informatics campus unless their a janitor thanks to Rumore!

Love the $1200 units but who is going to live in them?

Downtown housing options keep growing and keep filling up quickly. That is a VERY good sign for downtown Buffalo.

I agree with Bruce. Where is the demand coming from for $1200 to $1500 city apartments and a 600' tall skyscraper? Are companies based in Toronto or NYC really -- really -- going to relocate operations here? A residential, office and hotel space renaissance is all warm and fuzzy, but what about an industrial renaissance to create and keep high paying jobs here? Or to entice large multinational companies to headquarter here?

I fear a coming glut of office, residential and hotel space in downtown Buffalo. I just don't see the demand for it. And until our tax, government and union structures are revamped to attract private sector business, and the public school system improved to serve the community instead of the teacher's union, there will never be that demand.

No, that IS the Webb Building in the last photo. The one on Huron is a parking ramp.

I originally attached the Huron parking ramp whithout paying too much attention and then Gene was good enough to catch my mistake this morning. The current photo is of the Webb Building.

re all these ppl who say "where is the demand coming from... blah, blah, blah?!"
without opining whether there is or isn't a demand, have any of you done any type of research one way or the other? seems to me a lot of ppl say "there is no demand for these rents, or office space." then riddle me this- why is it that these types of lofts/apts are being built as such a pace? the answer- b/c there is a demand. i've tried and couldnt get into several of them. re office space- class A (the only suitable kind) has a vacancy of around 3%. thats extremely low, and therefore explains why cos are trying to build more. the outdated B and C space will become apts, cheap, start up incubators or demo'd. and thats the way it should be. i just dont understand when ppl say there is no demand without having done any of the research that developers do as a matter of course.

Bruce-

There's more demand than supply for lofts at $1200.00 a pop. The employees/scientists/researchers/entrepreneurs/doctors located in and around the medical corridor are the main tenants of these lofts.

Remember they are not creating 1000's of lofts. They are creating hundreds of lofts which is less then the demand for those style lofts.

Rocco can have my keys anytime. Oh wait, he already has a landlord spare. Rocco is the best landlord in the city, and he deserves all the recognition he is getting. David Burke is a class act as well.

Who the heck cares who employes who anyways? hater is exactly the word for you.

Keep rents high so we develop a downtown that is safe, fun, young, and full of people who are driven to succeed. Low rent means more crime. Buying condos downtown is actually a great idea. So props for that comment. That will actually add an influx of people who genuinely care for the surroundings of downtown. Plus they will be stakeholders in the new downtown renaissance that is currently under way.

fyi: I dont believe in the new skyscraper at all. I am having a lot of problems with that fact that this guy chose Buffalo to put up a skyscraper rather than 50 other U.S. cities that have a growing economy and a proven commercial base of tenants. Something stinks about this whole thing, I just don't know what.

The people that live here need to change their attitudes; I'm so tired of the negative people. With all that is going on in this city for the first time in decades, how can people still be so negative??????

I'll chime in about the "demand" for downtown living spaces. When I walked the downtown housing tour in August, it was a real eye opener to see just how many residential complexes are scattered around the center city, most in plain sight yet tucked away. And most were pretty much fully leased.

Yeah the demand is there.

But (sorry if this sounds like a broken record) the availability of condos/townhouses for purchase and investment is sadly lacking. In the past 6 months I have visited places like Charlotte, Oklahoma City, St. Louis and Detroit... the amount of residential conversion happening NOW would make your head spin.

I chatted with numerous other people walking the housing tour looking to buy...they shared my frustration.

For the record... I have check in hand to buy now... show me a decent place downtown. 150-300K range... I will rule out the 46th floor in Basher's new digs (too pricey for me) or Waterfront Village (too suburban and sterile). City Centre and Cobblestone Lofts on the radar screen. Any ideas? Let me know.

And for the record, I don't mean to slam on Rocco. People like him, Jacobs, Obletz are true heroes and deserve our continuing praise.

Sport-
St. Mary's Square at S. Elmwood and Edward is another downtown condo option that is relatively inexpensive (most units around $100k). Have patience, the condo options are coming, though slowly. Rentals are the downtown pioneers- once the market is proven, condo developments follow. We're getting there.

Where was the booming economy that pushed the sprawl in this region for the past 20 years? We have been loosing jobs and people but developing more and more. No one questioned the necessity or need to build Cross Point's Million acre office campus out in no mans land. Why is there such a negative assumption of demand for Buffalo developments?

This negativity is very one sided, and anti-city. Bruce remember that Buffalo actually has shrunk its government size, ~30% during the Masiello administration. They also voted out their own seats in the council, other suburban municipalities should follow our lead for once. I am not saying we are done, far from it. Still a long way to go with Cops and Teachers unions to actually care about the community they service, but one step at a time.

Buffalo is not as backwards anymore as people like to think and I think that all this new development and change is a direct result of that.

I agree with Newtocity....although I sort of understand the skepticism of the people of Buffalo. So many empty promises of progress has left them doubtful of all new development...I believe the main reason Mr. Issa chose Buffalo for his new tower is that most of the other cities that he could have chosen have been developed to the hilt some have been overdeveloped. So why not Buffalo..there hasn't been any thing developed here of this magnitude in about 35 years or more so maybe it's finally time that Buffalo can get some 21st century development ..I think it's a good look for the city.

No I agree that this development is needed and should be happening. Buffalo was left out of the last 25 year real estate boom so in many ways we are very late to the game.

No my point is that in all the bravado the same momentum towards job growth is still dead. The business developers so willing to put up a complex in the suburbs like clarence have not been convinced on the Buffalo Forge site, or Niagara Street or Exchange or Genesee, etc.

We are building a downtown lopsided community with very little business growth, very little business development and devoid families with children.

Give me news of another 2000 jobs from a major employer along with the 2000 downtown housing units, then you can say that Buffalo is turning a corner.

Until that time we are educating our kids to be janitors instead of scientists the way the public schools are teaching our kids while paying the highest school taxes in the nation.

Well, is the demand question not a fair one? I haven't done the research so I don't know, that's why I'm asking... Why a 40-storey skyscraper now? What's changed in our local economy to warrant construction of the city's tallest building, the first since 1970? What companies are demanding square footage of A grade office space in downtown Buffalo that necessitates a 600' skyscraper? Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about development in Buffalo, with or without a stimulated economy (it's scarier without though). But I'm curious to know where the demand is coming from because I don't have the time or resources to do the research myself. That's why I posted the question on this board. Has anyone here done the research? Can you enlighten me without bashing me? Thanks.

Check out the skyscrapercity web site for Manchester and you will see that this guy Issa has laft a trail of broken promises equal to the worst we have seen in Buffalo in the past.

Here is the link to the site complete with photo's of Issa's version of the Aquafalls Project. Big hole for many years.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=10302743#post10302743

2000 jobs? 2000 lofts?

Do you expect things to change in 2-3 years? Time is needed to turn this city around. This city is screwed up big time. Bottom line is that there is enough demand for the lofts being built, and there is condos in the pipeline for the near future. If you want to know more about condos, call Tim Wannamaker's office and they will tell you who will be developing condos in the next few years.

In the last 5 years, Buffalo has experienced more growth in construction than all of the last 15 years combined. You see construction everywhere. Blue cross, Hampton INN, new era, federal building, housing court, numerous residential complexes (lofts), $1 Billion Buffalo Public School reconstruction project, the new ECC Downtown Education and Public Safety Campus, numerous new buildings in the Medical corridor...

Man, just look around..things are changing. If you need to have 2000 jobs and 2000 lofts to comfort your definition of a city turning around then I would imagine you are in the minority.

So Buffalo is late in the game? So what? Should we just crumble and move away? i don't get your point at all. Do you have one? or are you just going to criticize all the good things Buffalo residents/businesses are trying to do to turn our city around.

I believe this city is turning around. For the first time ever, downtown Buffalo is attracting young professionals with higher disposable incomes. you can call it "lopsided" all you want. it is the smart way to build a better downtown. Small Businesses do not relocate to an area with low disposable income levels. I would rather see a lopsided community than another fruitbelt. Period.

Sorry for rambling...im done commenting...this is just frustrating to see comments from people who just don't have any vision or patience.

Well Sally Buffalo is extremely underbuilt with regards to Class A office space so there is a strong possibility that this tower could actually get built.

There was a report that Buffalo could double its growth rate if there was enough Class A residential and commercial space available and so there is demand and stronger demand in the city could help deflate the over-built suburban and exurban office parks that are getting built.

I have to agree that Office buildings along Niagara, South Park, Genesee and Exchange to name a few are much better alternatives to Office Parks in Pembroke, Clarence, Lancaster and such.

So the problem is two fold. One there is not enough speculative commercial real estate development in downtown Buffalo and we are doing a horrible job attracting new job growth to our city.

Please note at some point suburban sprawl is going to cross the Erie County Line and then those wonderful jobs will no longer be adding to our county tax base. Sound familiar? Its what killed downtown Buffalo and the inner city neighborhoods. Those suburban and exurban office park developers must be lured back into the city or everyone in the couny will be suffering the consequences.

The skyscaper wont be buit till 40% of it is leased. Issa is sending recruiters to different cities (NYC, Toronto, Chicago) to sell the space to companys to locate here. That is how you get businesses here. With a brand new Class A space with Views in a changing downtown such as Buffalo, why wouldn't this work? Think positive people.

Maybe this should be a lesson to our politicians and to the Buffalo Niagara Enterprise/Buffalo Niagara Partnership. Issa is marketing Class A office space to companies willing to expand in Buffalo....maybe we need to talk less and build more.

This is a dream come true for the residents of the neighborhood that has been around since the mid-1800s. To see the housing explosion and, now, to have Rocco take on what others have deemed either a good place for a new parking lot via demolition by neglect or impossible to re-create via adaptive reuse, is a godsend.

For over 12 years I have fought to see the Graystone emerge like a phoenix from the ashes and now it's coming through. Rocco looks beyond the surface and sees what many haven't the ability to see.

Regarding the Issa Tower: Although I like the design, I am a bit concerned over the lack of connectivity between Mr. Issa and the surrounding residential community. To hear the "community" expressed as the downtown structures (commercial and government) by the representative of Cannon Design the other evening and then to find out that Mr. Issa could not attend the presentation due to another committment (which also ended in a visit to Roxy's to view the "Stripteaser Show) was a bit of a downer.

Therefore, yes, Rocco can have a key to the West Village - he's providing not only a great financial opportunity for himself and his other partners, but also a boom to the oldest and most continually resided in neighborhood in Buffalo. Thanks, Rocco!

I very much like the idea of purchasing for $120k-$150k... The talk of the new condos being $500k+ is terrifying. I really want to buy downtown.. but for that? impossible.

See photo's of Issa's current projects under construction

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=40512

For those who have not been keeping up with the facts and reality. Demand for downtown Buffalo lofts and condos are high. So high that it's next to impossible to rent or buy one in downtown Buffalo. Thus the need exists to construct or renovate more housing options.

Having taken the loft tour of downtown Buffalo in late August, I was very impressed with the range and variety of lofts that have been created over the last 5-years. However, it was even more impressive to discover that most and in many cases all of the available lofts were already leased and thus very little is actually available on the market downtown. This is a great problem to have since it means that developers will build and renovate more units.

Some people have an old attitude and at the same time old information about what is actually already happening downtown. Some people find it much easier to just be negative and ignore reality.

I took the loft tour in August with a friend from NYC who is a Buffalo native interested in returning to Buffalo and buying a condo downtown. Fortunately, the renovation of the Statler Towers and other projects will offer viable options for my friend to buy a condo downtown and return home to Buffalo.

ok, please excuse my obvious ignorance about economic development, but enough with the "where are the jobs?" rant!

in it's heyday, this city was an enterprising city, and this is many years later. Times are changin', but some things remain the same - intellectual workers have always been able to create a different sort of economic status for themselves and their communities (please refer to exhibit A: BR) - please, I'm pleading, can we consider a modern version of productive, profitable work that is independent of this plea for a savior in the form of "he who will bring us 2000 jobs" ... far be it from me to over-simplify the issues, but I shudder to think of more cubicle/technician-style type of jobs, and I'll trust that the type of people coming to live in the new developments will be fully capable of contributing to lush employment possibilities (different in my mind from 'a job workin' for the man', call me crazy)

meanwhile - can someone produce some numbers on how many jobs new construction creates?

Arete wants everyone to be an entrepreneur instead of a salary person. Im laughing my arse off!

The Buffalo Public Schools cant turn out graduates that do any better than janitor work and many couldnt even get a job at the Macy's cosmetic counter and Arete thinks that the average Buffalo citizen that wont even plant a tree can count high enough to run and manage a business.

hahahahah....arete say something else funny. Why not tell them to use their savings to open that business....hahaha....unfortunately the only people that actually have savings are those over paid unaccountable public servants and why would they need to start a business...if they want more money...they just send their union demands to an arbitrator that issues an edict to raise taxes.

Arete has a good point about the construction jobs. Everywhere i go i see buildings either being built or fixed up. Every part of the city is alive with construction. Not to say that all those jobs equal one Bethlehem Steel - it just means that for the first time we can see a more productive job market. Throw in a bunch of entrepreneurs, thousands of lawyers, a solid medical industry, the gov't (that will always be our biggest employer) private enteprise, banking, tech (Softbank just relocated into the HSBC building) - for the first time we are starting to attract out-of-towners who like what they see here. An artist can even make a living here, look at Artspace moving onto Main Street. Next year will be even bigger for Buffalo. Buffalo is changing and these changes will bring different job opportunities. There will be no more 2000 job injections. We will have to rely on small growth spurts and ..... as many entrepreneurs as we can get our hands on.

As one who has seen this city littered with promises made and broken over 30+ years, I wish Mr. Issa well in his effort. But, we've seen and heard it before. My expectations are set appropriately. The rosey hue has faded from my glasses. I'll believe the Buffalo City Tower when I see, touch and watch white collar employees walking into and out of it.

sportsroadtrip, devin: I have an idea for you. Contact me at Pyramid Brokerage if interested.

tottaly off topic, but that first image looks remarkibly like the center pompidou in paris, which is one of the most celebrated buildings of the past 150 years.
http://www.hiptravelguide.com/paris/pompidou.jpg

if we only had truly 'visionary' developers in this city...

sigh...

Sally- thanks for the link. Something to consider. However, there may be circumstances in Manchester that have been problematic. Who knows? Maybe it's best if we don't count the chicks before they've hatched. Anyway, this project looks great and I hope the next round of development will be for condos or even town house type in-fill.

As a gainfully employed well-traveled graduate level educated urban planner deeply engaged in the housing subfield -I really think William's and Bruce's points are dead on. (And not tooting my own horn, I'm just addressing the potential questions that often arise when people make counterpoints on BR re: person's background, experience, etc). That being said, official studies, unofficial studies, focus groups, general research, doctoral and master's level research projects, etc. regarding housing development/redevelopment/neighborhood stabilization have two common themes interwoven with the analysis. 1. Access/proximity to employment; and 2, Access/proximity to ancillary services. There is not enough simultaneous development in either one of these areas to truly and consisently draw an "urbancentric" resident population everyone is interested in. I live in the Elmwood Village and can walk within a mile to a grocery store, bar, gas station, dry cleaner, library, bank, etc. If I am living in the downtown area - I still need to get into some form of transportation and access a true and measurable level of services at least 5 miles away. If I need to get into my car and drive to access these types of services, what is the incentive to move into the city? Additionally, the numbers of people that keep claiming that all of the medical campus, white collar professionals are looking for housing - that may be true. But unfortunately folks, the number of these professionals is finite. The numbers of these folks looking to live in a downtown area is finite....and...the numbers of these folks who want to live in a highly dense urban area lacking a consistent base of services is even MORE finite.

I make a decent salary for myself and would be considered a white collar professional. I would rather take the solid construction of a house or apartment in the Elmwood Village that allows me to leave my car parked and walk two blocks to get what I need than move into a slightly inflated downtown loft where I have to drive even farther to services any day of the week.

No I agree that this development is needed and should be happening. Buffalo was left out of the last 25 year real estate boom so in many ways we are very late to the game.

No my point is that in all the bravado the same momentum towards job growth is still dead. The business developers so willing to put up a complex in the suburbs like clarence have not been convinced on the Buffalo Forge site, or Niagara Street or Exchange or Genesee, etc.

We are building a downtown lopsided community with very little business growth, very little business development and devoid families with children.

Give me news of another 2000 jobs from a major employer along with the 2000 downtown housing units, then you can say that Buffalo is turning a corner.

Until that time we are educating our kids to be janitors instead of scientists the way the public schools are teaching our kids while paying the highest school taxes in the nation.

Where exactly are the jobs?

A boss once told me, instead of sitting around asking where is my job, one should be asking how can I make myself a job/jobworthy as a minimum, then I should be asking how can I make another job for somebody else. If everybody had this mentality, where would we be now?

That is the culture of growth. Innovation, efficienices, the drive to excell, etc drive growth. We can be part of it or watch it pass us by, like pawns, as most have been.

During the boon times here way before my birth, maybe we got lazy around here and expected everything to fall in our laps forever, or for someone else to come pick us back up. All while making excuses. I've known personally people who came to this country with $100 and retired very comfortably. No excuses there.

We can only control ourselves, and then influence others. We should all be asking what is our influence?

Urbangirl,

The problem with your analysis is that the demand has been shown to be there to a factual certainty. You can throw all the statistics you want at it but the fact is that the apartments coming on line downtown have rented as soon as they have been completed at rents far higher than the rest of the metro area. Buildings such as the Webb will yield spectacular apartments that will also rent or sell fast.

There has been an unmet demand for new housing in downtown and the city in general that has not been satisfied by Buffalo's myopic development community. Now the log jam has broken and we are seeing the results of pent up demand.

It is funny how the complainers and second guessers come out of the woodwork when there is a new proposal in the city....Oh they will never fill that office space ....or....This area is shrinking, why do we need new housing in the city.....You never hear that kind of talk when some large new subdivision or office park in Amherst is proposed.

Steel,

I'm not saying the demand doesn't exist - I'm saying the demand is finite. There is a veritable portion of residents in the WNY region that a. cannot afford $1200+ rents b. can afford $1200+ rents and don't want to have to travel a significant distance from their new location in the downtown core. I fully support downtown development/redevelopment and do so both via my career and my hobbies. Please don't attribute my statement to complaining and second guessing. I'm bringing up a real point which has yet to be addressed. There should be an equally strong if not more so, push towards the cultivation of businesses providing daily amenities and services.

this is a fantastic development- now if we could only get those M&T parking lots converted to a park (underground parking would be fine, a good compromise actually).

Urban Girl,
Regarding your comment: "I live in the Elmwood Village and can walk within a mile to a grocery store, bar, gas station, dry cleaner, library, bank, etc."
Well, I live Downtown and can walk within a mile to a grocery store, bar, gas station,dry cleaner, library, bank, etc. Not only that but I can use the Metro for free to get to these and other services I need. Sure, we don't have some of the basic clothing items we need but then again neither does Elmwood. We DO have many of the services we need and I find that I rarely need my car. Yes, we could use more (hardware store) but we are certainly not stranded here with no services as you seem to think.