Buffalorising has been redesigned.

If anyone knew how to attract more riders it would've been done years ago. The fact of the matter is that it's a light rail system that goes nowhere. For the majority of people in WNY who live in the suburbs, the subway is not an option to get to Elmwood, Hertel, or Allentown. Everyone just drives to those areas. If there was a stop right in the heart of Elmwood, or Hertel, from a subway that started in Amherst maybe it'd be an option.

In Buffalo the car is the #1 way of getting around for majority of people, I don't know anyone who would drive to the UB station and then take the subway to Allentown.

Bucky,

Such a typical, negative response.

For starters, outside of the largest cities, the "Park and Ride" concept is universally viewed as a "non starter" by urban planners ... not in Buffalo. Each morning the Park & Rides at University and La Salle stations are filled with suburbanites that use Metro ... despite the fact that Buffalo has almost no traffic. This is not seen in other mid-size cities. I've lived on Niagara Falls Blvd. across from the University station for four years and love Metro. I take it whenever I can and I will say this ... a surprising number of suburbanites use it to get to Sheas, Bisons/Sabres Games and, yes, to get to Allentown/Chippewa night life (one way). Hell, my girlfriend's Mom, a Tonawanda resident, uses the Metro to get to work at Roswell Park.

The issue is the hours of Metro's operation. It should really run till 2AM at the earliest. Anytime I've ever driven to Allentown at night, was because I knew the Metro would not be running past midnight.

The answer is expanded Metro hours.

Regarding the original question, the answer is UB. UB needs to be pressed into accepting its role as an "anchor tenant" in Buffalo. If you take the "UB Stampede" inter-campus shuttle's daily ridership, you will find enough passenger trips to justify federal funds for an expansion of Metro into Amherst.
The University must be pressured at every turn.

First of all bucky, in Buffalo that isn't true. 2/3 of us in the city don't have cars. It's really sad that many of those folks are out of reach of the light rail system.

As far as out system goes, it's really the best way to get anywhere on the main street corridor or downtown. Buffalo's downtown is very walkable. Once you're downtown there is no need to get back in the car, you can get anywhere you need to go within minutes.

Perhaps is people knew how fast light rail was it would be better utilized. It takes me just 6 minutes to go from Canisisus College to UB South. It takes at least double that driving. From UB South to North Campus on the Stampede buses it takes a whopping 15-20 minutes. My transit and that of tens of thousands of students alone could be cut in half by expansion. Perhaps people don't know that.

I'd like to know what happened to the idea about using existing rail lines for ground level light rail. Seeing as the track already exists, only the overhead wireing and stations need to be put in.

I think a campaign that shows the demographic of those that use the system would help make it better used. I tell my friends and they say I'm crazy. Many don't know.

I know something is wrong when Rochester has a front page article in their newspaper the Democrat&Chronicle touting the reasons and routes why its time for them to bring light rail to their city while saying that their neighbor (Buffalo) doesnt use or expand their light rail because of ignorance, incompetence, corruption and short sightedness. Quote "Buffalo is a national aberration!"

Note to Mel,

While I'd love to see Buffalo become a city where 2/3 of residents can forego cars, we're not at that stage yet. Maybe when gas reaches $10 a gallon, we'll finally get off our butts and expand Metro Rail.

"In Buffalo (Erie County, NY), the proportion with two cars will increase from 46 percent of 371,800 households in 1996 to 48 percent of 362,500 households in 2001, according to Urban Decision Systems."

From:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4021/is_n12_v18/ai_18894247
Who needs two cars? - automobile ownership statistics

BTW, bicycles are permitted on Metro Rail as long as a wheelchair user doesn't need the space at the front or back of the car.

I didn't say 2/3 forego the use of cars, I said 2/3 of people don't have them. Check out the East Side and Lower West if you want proof. Household statistics skew the data. I'm talking about people, and most in Buffalo don't have cars.

BTW, information comes from SUNY Buffalo Regional Knowledge Network.

Ahhh and so the TRUTH comes out as to why the NFTA will not build the airport extension even though they have admitted to significantly increasing their downtown-airport bus service enough to prove a light rail extension could be profitably run.

Sandra Snyder Schoellkopf runs airportparking.com. No doubt that they dont want a light rail connection because it would bankrupt their airport parking business....as free park&rides were offered.

This is shameful and a smart reporter would bring this travesty to the eye of the public. The Snyder and Schoellkopf families to well known and respected pillars of the community to be making their money off of the impediments to Buffalo's future.

A light rail extension would increase the property value of those parking lots to make them PRIME locations for commercial development. They might loose the business but not money on land which has appreciated and would appreciate significantly more with an extension...to the point where they could be leasing commercial property or roll the money over into a more lucratrive business venture!

As pillars of the community they have a responsibility...shame on them!

And to let ROCHESTER call Buffalo a NATIONAL ABERRATION regarding light rail...is horrific....its painting our city as a no growth bunch of redeck illiterates that cant manage to do anything but collect a paycheck and nudge their head just alittle further up either their own ass or a politicians.

Good points.
- the rail is being used
- it is vital to the area and a great asset
- it would absolutely be more successful if it reached the amherst campus (as an aside - perhaps there's a cheaper way if the rail extensions is not possible - Los Angeles has a few mass transit lines that run as chained busses with doors that open on the side, sort of a train car with wheels. as they approach intersections the lights change to give them preference. ete etc. perhaps that's cheaper. either way...) Bringing quicker transportation between UB campuses would be a huge win for ridership, while they are at it they could hit the boulevard mall corridor which would provide lots of low cost workers to the mall area shops. business people would profit from this and poor folks in the city that want a job in a safe place to work would benefit.

- can we get over all the old racist reasons we didn't take it the suburbs? really, when are people going to realize that everyone is in the game together?

- find, and then support, the legitimate hard working honest people in the minority communities instead of lumping them together in a stereotype and then abandoning ALL of them to the 1% (5%? whatever, it's a minority out of a law-abiding majority) of thugs that terrorize the actual honest, decent people there in their own neighborhoods.

amherst has like the lowest crime in the nation. I think they can sacrifice a few resources to not be quite so damned safe in order to foster the greater good. there's such a thing as cutting off your nose to spite your face and there may be a picture of Amherst in the encyclopedia under the definition... amherst is a nice place but having a lack of compassion and vision and community connection works to hurt the area as a whole - eventually including amherst...
enlarge your vision people... starting with your hearts, minds, and then your wallets will benefit as a nice side effect too..

Look its been almost 30 years since Buffalo built its Light Rail and dont fall for this lack of Federal Funds Bull shot!

Cleveland managed to extend their rail system and their in worse shape than Buffalo in many ways!

The fact of the matter is that Buffalo's NFTA and GBNRTC are not even submitting the applications to be rejected! This is insanity. Who refuses to take a test because they think they will fail? No one! Everyone takes the test and hopes that the odds are in their favor they will pass...and if they dont...there is no penalty for retaking it just as there is no penalty for resubmitting the paperwork annually! The NFTA needs to put the federal government in the position of saying "NO" where Clinton, Schumer, Higgins and the rest of our local congressional delegation can stand behind our applications instead of this perpetual holding pattern of assumptions.

Its a nice article but it also neglects that Buffalo is presently paying for Metropolitan Transportation Bonds...aka NYC subways. If our community was united around a light rail extension then we could have demanded equal funding for light rail with NYC which would have certainly created a more fair and equitable deal for Buffalonians!

The Airport Corridor-profitable
The UB Amherst Corridor-profitable
and I have no dount that a small park&ride extension for the Southtowns along South Park would be enormously successful as people avoid the skyway closings and tolls and weather.
and I have no doubt that a Niagara Falls extension would be enormously profitable opening Buffalo up to the intenational visitors that visit Niagara Falls daily.

And actually there should be (2) applications....a two pronged approach. The first obviously should be for federal and state funding for a full light rail extension but the second should be an annual application for the addition of just 1 or 2 stations. If we did that then we would accumulate a full line within a decade.

Does anyone have any idea the millions of dollars that could be pumped into our local economy! Yet our NFTA and GBNRTC wont even submit the applications! Now thats worthy of tar and feathering! Someone should look up the NFTA Board of Directors find out their home addresses and spit on them and their families! I bet they dont even live in Buffalo as their making these horrific decisions that say that our metropolitan area is not viable! Get that Buffalonians....I bet non-Buffalonians who dont even ride mass transit are telling you that your metropolitan area is not viable. Yep thats worth a wad of spit or worse!

Dare I say... this sounds like some NEW BUFFALO thinking to me!!!!

Love it!

New ideas and solutions to old & continuing problems/ issues.

That is so true. I never heard of the NFTA submitting requests for Expansion when NYC did last year. NYC did get approved, but after residents voted and made an ad campaign in favor of it. They are now extending the Number 6 train down Lexington Ave from 96Th.-59Th. Street and later more in the lower east side.
My point? NYC made a request, it's locals wanted it, demanded it...and they got it. Buffalo can do the same...Demand it, make posters, get signitures...Next time, Make NFTA request the funds for our Rail Expansion.

Not to sound cynical ,but in the plan to open Main St. to traffic, the Theater St. station will be moved about 1/4 mile further downtown.
So those of you who live north of W. Tupper will now need to board at Allen and pay $3 each time for a round trip. Moving the first "no fare" station further away from the population center will create quite a profit for the NFTA, not to mention an inconvenience for all living in the vicinity of the soon to be defunct Theater District station.
If this affects you (or you just don't like to see people ripped off) fax a letter to: Peter Ringo, P.E.
DiDonato Associates
689 Main Street
Buffalo, NY 14203
FAX 716-656-1967

What are the actual figures for ridership based on the city's size?
As for the subway stations--they don't strike me as any worse and it many cases better than the dirty staircase down the hole in the ground that account for most of Toronto's access.

Ride Captain,

Get real ... what a non-issue. Public transit is not a "money maker." In fact, the farebox doesn't even cover 40% of operating costs. No one is getting rich off the proposed changes.

Eric,

Truth be told, the only viable expansion that would meet the federal ridership criteria would be the UB-UB North extension. The ridership is there and its measurable. The Airport ridership is insufficiant and even with planned growth around a new line, it's entirely to speculative.

As stated before, the "missing link" is UB. That one entity holds the entire key to Metro's expansion

Cheap parking downtown only promotes people to drive and park. We should let the market take over that price and stop subsidizing parking.

Hours of operation! EXACTLY! No one is asking for trains every 5 minutes at 2am, even one an hour, to bridge the gap between 12am and 6am would be nice. At least you can get home. People can grab food at Town or Jims if they need to kill time.

UB does and MUST become a bigger player in this city. Have they finalized the deal to let us ride the system or are they still digging their suburban heels in the ground?

I don’t think we can ignore the reasons why metro rail got stopped from expanding to North Campus in the first place because most people that I have told never knew. People who live their lives outside of our circles do not realize why it was never built out they just assume some dumb politicians stopped it. Amherst needs to understand that if we do not all start working together the very thing that they have been trying to protect themselves from is going to be coming to their front door.

Anyone read the Esmonde Column in the news a couple days ago. Tonawanda, Cheektowaga, West Seneca, all are loosing population at higher or almost equal levels as Buffalo but are not seeing the same kinds of investment like Buffalo is seeing. We tried to work together, for years talking about regionalism and working together as for our collective future but the city constantly got laughed at. ohh not our problem, in our own little subdivided world...

Well give it another couple years and their budgets will start crumbling just like ours did. Suburbanites need to wake up and realize we are all in this together and the fiefdoms of the past are not going to work for much longer.

Back to NFTA, I think they have about 19-20,000 people per day that take the train. Mostly estimates because they dont really have a good way of counting. They base it off of statistics from ticket machine sales and ticket checkers.

Better bus connections would be nice as well. If they focused their bus schedules that intersect train stations the system would tie itself together much nicer. You know when the train is going to be there, plan to have a bus there 5 minutes after. Not hard, but it would imporve access to Elmwood, Hertel and everywhere else in buffalo with no extra money just proper planning. I know they try.. but the NFTA doens't to a great job at this.

IRR Soldier,
I dont know what your relationship is to the military but I didnt know that they excepted traitors, hypocrits and ignorant people such as yourself. Yes your a hypocrit to Buffalo if you dont support light rail while depressed Buffalo's tax dollars are being used to finance greedy NYC subways thru the Metropolitan Bond Act while low cost Niagara Power has been re-allocated to NYS and is used to run NYC subways too!

Your a traitor to Buffalo if you would deny us the federal and state funds to extend our light rail which would mean million upon million of dollars pumped into our local economy.

And your ignorant of the financial viability of light rail extensions because the NFTA's own numbers show that the Light Rail is more profitable and has lower operating costs than buses!
Yes-the numbers for replacing the UB intercampus buses with light rail prove financial viability but you neglect that the airport is approaching 6 MILLION PASSENGERS PER YEAR AND THE NFTA IS SIGNIFICANTLY EXPANDING BUS SERVICE BETWEEN THE AIRPORT AND DOWNTOWN WHICH WOULD ALSO MAKE THAT CORRIDOR!

You know with almost 8-10 million visitors per year in Niagara Falls that corridor isnt far behind in profitability.

Tell me something soldier....are as ignorant traitors and hypocritical with affairs of the military as you are with the civic affairs of Buffalo!

I fear for our country IRR soldier if our military has its head as far up its ass as yours is! If you cant be loyal to poor and depressed Buffalo and Buffalonians then find another city to live your life but if your in Buffalo you should be willing to sacrifice your life for a better future for Buffalo....just as you would expect a soldier to sacrifice his life for a better future for his country!

If Rochester finds the federal and state money to bring back their subway system 1927 - 1957 and Buffalo continues to sit on its ass and say that it cannot then I will publish the home addresses of the NFTA President and Board along with the names of their kids so someone can open a hole in their head for the light of day to penetrate their dark souls!

I bet these people and their kids dont even live in Buffalo or ride mass transit and their making decisions of Buffalos Metropolitan transportation! They dont even believe in the service they are providing. Thats the problem!

The other problem is that Albany appoints the board of directors to the NFTA and GBNRTC which is why they wont break with Albany to grow our city and why they have no spine to refuse to pay Buffalo tax dollars to support NYC subways!

These people really need to be executed in Niagara Square for participating in the destruction of our city! Treat them just like the italians treated Mussolini....hang them and their kids in Niagara Square and let people beat their bodies until they fall apart. Thats what the NFTA Board and Meckler deserve!

UB does have the power to get an extension to North Campus. And if people campaigned for and spread public awarenes of the benefits of an airport connecter, then NFTA would consider it.

While the Park&Ride increases ridership of the metro, it did prevent the renaissance of the University Heights. Other light rail projects have resulted in a renaissance for the neighborhoods where the stations are located. However, Park&Ride means that people dont have to live in the neighborhood to ride the metro. Also, if the Parking lot is adjacent to the station, then people walking to their cars from the station (or vice versa) wont even bother to stop at the neighborhood bakery or cafe or whatever. A lot of people love the Park&Ride, but it prevented a renaissance of the University Heights. (Of course, we all know that UB has been more responsible for the downfall of the heights more than anyone, but the Park&Ride certainly didnt help).

Lastly, to ease traffic on Elmwood, make it more pedestrian friendly, and increase shoppers and restaurant patrons- a streetcar running along Elmwood from Buff State to downtown would solve all of these problems. Granted, people from the suburbs would still have to drive to Buff State, but this isnt just for the suburbanites spending an afternoon in the city. Its for everyone. All neighborhoods connected (Buff State/museums, entire Elmwood strip, Allentown, Downtown) would benefit from a streetcar. Just like Portland.

Let's not get so hostile. Why don't Buffalonians do anything about the situation? Petition, anyone? 280,000 people in Buffalo, that's enough to demand change with or without support from UB or our suburbs.

When did I say I was AGAINST Metro Rail????

I specifically said I LOVED it!

That said, the UB-UB North extension is the only viable option given federal ridership requirements.

is pokey the head of the new buffalo-jihadists or something. jesus christ we're talking about public transportation here.

spit on the NFTA board of directors and their families???
tar and feathering???

what is your problem?

BR needs to get their new comment stuff up soon-im sick of these psychos ranting all the time.

anyways what i wanted to say is that even though the UB connection is the most important element of the light-rail's success I think that the Airport one is the most logical since
1) its NFTA entity to NFTA entity
2) easily use old existing rails.
Too many obstacles to overcome with Amherst still.

I agree with mark, these posts can start to tilt toward the psycho end of things...
So for people that get mad and passionate about these topics... if you've never had to do it before, now may be the time to realize that yes, people hear you, we are reading your comments and taking your thoughts into consideration, and so you don't have to be so over the top with your expressions. We get your points without the hyperbole and the references to violence. that's a little crazy and I suggest a timeout and maybe taking a few deep breaths and then posting something sane and thoughtful. people write off ranters rather than listen, so just shouting louder and adding more hyperbole doesn't add to the weight of the arguments. let the facts stand for themselves, make your points in a strong way and just let that do your convincing. Otherwise you tend to have the opposite effect that you desire... just my $.02.

and don't forget those who no longer live in Buffalo, but still wish to see it succeed.

By the way... the subway was built with expansion in mind. Some tunnels are already dug (where there would be major intersections) and the electrical capacity already exists for major expansion.

A guy in one of my classes at Canisius College researched and wrote about all of this a few years ago.

Those ranting psychos all sound like multiple personalities of "L".
Just ignore him.

Otherwise, great post! Metro rail is one of our more underrated assets. People do indeed use and it love it. It just needs to be expanded into a complete system to really work properly.

The NFTA actually commissioned a study by Parsons Brinkerhoff a few years ago to look at expansion of Metro. My understanding is that when a draft came in saying that a number of routes were potentially viable it was sent back to the consultants with direction to change those findings and a reminder that he who pays the piper calls the tune. I heard this second hand, but from people who might have been in a position to know.

The subway doesn't go where I go, simply enough. I am on the West Side, 2 miles from the Delavan station. By the time I'd get there, I might as well drive (or even walk!) to downtown. However, I also have no reason to go downtown, anymore - neither have my neighbors. Dealing with City Hall was my last reason, and that can be done by mail. The Library was another reason, but since the only evening hours are on Thursday & now blocked by traffic for the "thursday at the square", it is pointless to try.

Note to Mel: at least 3/4 of all Buffalo households DO have cars; I'd put the figure closer to 90%. Only the poorest of the poor do not have one car.

An airport extension of the light rail wouldn't accomplish anything that express buses can at much less cost. The East Side is NOT going to be a transit necessity within our lifetimes. (Thank you, NFTA, for finally increasing service via the 204 route! )

Any hope for light-rail or trolley serice will be through simple, on-street, slow routes, using off-the-shelf streetcars from European makers and lowered expectations. An Elmwood trolley might be nice, attractive to visitors, and even 'cute', but it can't be any faster than the car traffic blocking its way . That's not a reason to avoid it, though - cute and attractive can count for more than speed.

DrKay

I won't even touch the fact thay I give a reference for my stats and you don't. I will say debate your assertion that light rail can't accomplish anything buses can't. Light rail wins big time on speed no matter how fast the buses run. LIght rail wins on the expanded demographic of people willing to use it. Buses have a far worse perception than trains. So, no matter what, you'd have less ridership of buses than trains. Third bus routes and times are confusing. Already I have three examples of why light rail is better than buses in less than a minute. Seems like a no brainer here.

I think DrKay was refering to my comment about the benefits of an Elmwood streetcar. It is true that the streetcar would not travel significantly faster than the car traffic on Elmwood. However, in Portland, the traffic lights are timed to be green whenever a streetcar is approaching the intersection, so the streetcar would have that advantage.

The more important advantage of the streetcar, however, is that it provides transportation down Elmwood for those who do not wish to drive or take the bus. Many would agree with me that more people would be willing to take a light rail train or streetcar than a bus, especially if they are not familiar with the bus routes. The problem with the Elmwood strip is that those who wish to drive to Elmwood, park their cars, and do some shopping or get a bite to eat cannot access all of Elmwood on foot, just as the residents of the Delaware District and the West Side can only walk so far from their homes.

The streetcar, however, enables the average suburbanite to park, say, in the Albright-Knox Museum lot, enjoy the museum, take the streetcar down to Spot Coffee, then get back on and go all the way downtown if they want, eat anywhere on Elmwood, in Allentown, or Downtown, do some shopping wherever, get back on the streetcar, and arrive back at the museum lot. The streetcar would also serve all the residents/students of Buff State, Delaware District/West Side, Allentown, West Village, and Downtown as they do their own commuting, shopping, and eating.

If you question the success of the streetcar, check out the Portland Streetcar website (i probably can't paste the link).

also, I agree with Mel that a light rail extension to the airport would be far better than any express bus route. I know I sound like a broken record talking about Portland over and over again, but they finally built a light rail extension to the airport, and despite the fact that it opened a day before 9/11, ridership during that first week and continuing today has suprised everyone.

The reason i constantly refer to Portland, Or is because it was built up on a similar scale to Buffalo, but made some brilliant decisions when Buffalo was shooting itself in the foot.

Subway Sammy, is there anyway to share your your friends report on how many tunnels were dug and how far....is it enough to add another station or two?

This would be a fascinating read for all of us trying so hard to even get a small extension to our existing light rail.

The eastside is most definitely a viable transportation corridor with almost 6 million passengers patronizing our airport and millions patronizing the Galleria complex and recent planned expansion at ECC downtown campus... its imperative that these two regional engines be connected with downtown and the waterfront.

Quotes from the Parkins Brinkerhoff
"The Amherst Corridor contains a fewer number of activity centers compared to the other centers but these are some of the regions largest individual centers"

"The Airport Corridor contains a significant number of concentrated employment and transportation centers compared to the other corridors"

"The Amherst corridor is projected to experience the greatest rate of population growth although the total population ranks 3rd among the six corridors growing to just 200,000 by 2020

The Airport corridor is projected to REVERSE is past population declines and grow to over 250,000 people by 2020.

"Currently Metro has a low debt burden. Examining data from 1994-1999 Metro is well under its usual liability amount and will have no debt by 2004"

"There are six sources of operating subsidies for transit
other divisions of NFTA such as small boat harbor, Buffalo Airport, Niagara Falls Airport, Buffalo Bus Station, Niagara Falls Bus Station
-FTA (federal transit administration and other divisions of USDOT
-NYS
-Erie County
-Peace Bride Authority

Other sources could include
-new state and local government sources
-leasing NFTA properties for commercial purposes
-Corporate Service Passes such as those by Medaille, Canisius and the COE Life Sciences Campus for Light Rail ridership
-rental of commercial space in the transit stations
-sharing of thruway tolls for light rail operating revenue
-sharing of peace bridge tolls for light rail operating revenue"

"40% of the entire NFTA ridership is on the 6.4 mile Light Rail"

"The existing rail line is the KEY to the current, continuing, and future cost effectiveness of the NFTA transit business"

"Extending the rail line in a new corridor could potentially double ridership without doubling operating costs thus reducing the cost per unit of service" THE AIRPORT CORRIDOR AND THE AMHERST CORRIDORS COULD TRIPLE THE RIDERSHIP REDUCING OPERATING COSTS BY A THIRD"

"Based on data from existing studies the Airport Corridor would be the most cost effective using the FTA New Start Programs cost effectiveness Index (CEI)" BUFFALOS METRICS FOR FEDERAL FUNDS FOR NEW STARTS ARE WELL WITHIN THE REASONABLE RANGE WHEN COMPARED TO INDIVIDUAL PROJECTS IN OTHER CITIES

The airport corridor ridership does not include major investments and increased ridership at the Buffalo Niagara Airport, growth at the Galleria, growth at ECC downtown campus which would only further substantiate the viability of the extensions success

The southtowns Corridor would represent the second best performing extension based on the CEI because of the relatively limited transportation service in the area by I90 and Route5.

Costs aside, which are alot. But why not extensions of the rail into suburbs. One into the tonawandas, with a park and ride, one in Amherst with park and ride, etc. Who wouldn't rather park their car a few miles from their house and take the train to work, especially in the winter. The train is a great option to skip winter driving. Plus with gas so high you can save money. Even encourage offices to buy Metro passes for workers. You know some tax credits or what not.

Streetcars are also a great idea, I bet a lot easier and cheaper to lay down rails then dig tunnels. You could have them for Elmwood, delaware, main st, bailey and other major routes.

Re Houston light rail:

It is true that federal funds were denied for the Houston rail expansion - but only after several members of the *Texas* (emphasis added) Congressional delegation intervened and made sure no federal money was available.

"Hot Tub" Tom Delay proudly *campaigned* in his suburban (Sugarland) Houston district that his efforts prevented expansion of Houston's rail. He listed this intervention as an accomplishment in a city that some of the most congested roads in the nation.

Buffalo does not have a monopoly on inept or foolish politicians.

I thought this was interesting, I searched on Google for "federal transportation funds light rail". The first result explained that in 2003 over $3 billion was authorized for the transportation funds people refer to. 40% of those funds goes to construction of new rail systems. While that isn't very much money it could build 48 miles worth of light rail, assuming average construction costs of 25 million (from Wikipedia).

Our goal for expansion in the region should be above ground with the exception of getting to North Campus. Using the existing unused rail lines in Buffalo, construction costs would be significantly reduced.

But the NFTA and GBNRTC will not even submit the TEA-21 forms nor will they look for the new funds for a light rail extension!

Gladys over at the CRTC will not submit her petition to local elected officials after the NFTA ignored it nor will Gladys have meetings in communities along the potential corridors for light rail extension.

Gladys has never had a CRTC meeting in South Buffalo, the airport or Niagara Falls!

We are passing millions of dollars in investment in our local community the potential revitalization of South Buffalo and the eastside Airport Corridor while bringing millions of people from Niagara Falls to Buffalo.

Petitions dont work
Citizens Committees like the CRTC dont work

Seriously whats it going to take?

The 2000 Census : 26% of Buffalo city residents have no access to an automobile. My guess that 90% of households have a car was based on what I see in my neighborhood. For example, on my block of about 40 houses, I'm aware of only 1 head-of-household without a car (and that's only because of physical disability) .

By the way, it's easy to explain why the subway carries such a large percentage of the NFTA's riders - it's because there are so few on the buses!

Let's understand one thing: public transportation is not profitable--and should not be expected to be profitable--for the same reasons that public schools, public police departments, and public fire departments are not profitable, and are not expected to be profitable.

We fund these things out of our tax revenues because they are things that a civilized society needs and that the market cannot or should not supply.

Once again DrKay wants to play with words. Ownership of a motor vehicle is different from access to one. The reason I used statistics of ownership is because a 15 year old has access to his dad's car, but that doesn't mean he can use it and it doesn't mean his dad wants to cart him around. Real life example: I am 20, I have no car, I have no license, there are four cars in my driveway, I use public transportation to get around. Public transportation reaches people of all ages and situations everyday!

Wonderful post! For what it is, our current (albiet unfinished) Metro Rail line is well-used and liked by those who have a reason to use it. What we need are more people who can use it and have a reason to.

Anyhoo...

The mains reasons our metro system is not seeing any expansion lately...

1. Regional priorities- Most of the regional population owns cars, drives everwhere, and lives in places where driving is the only way of getting around conveniently. Therefore, the vast majority of the people aren't exactly clamoring for improved an improved mass transit system.

Metro Rail will NOT be expanded until a broad swath of the REGIONAL population demands it. The city of Buffalo doesn't hold enough political or economic sway to demand it alone. Is a broad majority of city residents even demanding it?

This is a pouplar support issue. Blaming the lack of rail expansion on citizen voulnteer groups and NFTA management is futile.

2. Downtown. The focal point of the regional mass transit system is Downtown Buffalo. Radial lines feeding a downtown core is the only efficient and effective way for a regional mass transit network to properly work. If more of the region's residents had an eveyday need for going Downtown, there would be more of an impetus to expand the system. Then there would be more popular support for such a system, which all goes back to point #1 I made.

As downtown continues to see more investment, more and more people will have a use for it. Once enough of the population has a reason for going downtown on a semi-regular basis, expect to see popular enthusiasm for improved this regional transit system.

3. Gas prices- Believe it or not, transport fuels are still very cheap here. Compare our gas prices to what people in Europe pay, this becomes quite apparent. Until gas prices get to about $5/ a gallon, the failed suburban utopia experiment will continue to chug along and people will keep driving everywhere.

Once people start going bankrupt because they can't afford to drive to work (and everywhere else) and heat an oversized home, they might begin reconsidering their lifestyles.

Until then, this will be a slow, incremental process.

The best thing all of you can do to improve transit is to inform your friends and families about the importance of our urban core and the modes of transportation needed to strenghten it.

Urban Critic,
Do you work for the NFTA or GBNRTC? It sounds like an official response.

This is the same bull we have been hearing for 30 years and not just from the NFTA and GBNRTC but from Albany etc.

Dont invest in Buffalo's future because there is a high risk of failure. Therefore their lack of investment puts the risk on everyone who does take a chance on Buffalo and their risks and failures act as evidence to obstruct future investment. A SELF FULFILLING PROFECY!

If more Buffalonians had a need to go downtown then there would be a cause for expanding light rail.
Well thats just bull! The airport is approaching 6+ million passengers a year, the Peace Bridge handles 6-8 million passengers a year, Niagara Falls handles another 6-10 million visitors a year and dont forget to add in the railroads and buses. These are numbers that other cities would beg to have such a diverse regional dynamic to tap into for business and tourism. HOWEVER ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC BECAUSE THEY DONT ALREADY VISIT EVERY REGIONAL ASSET THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION TO CREATE AN AMENITY FOR THEM TO USE! ITS ANOTHER SELF FULFILLING PROFECY! THEY DONT GO NOW SO IF WE BUILD IT THEY WONT GO IF ITS AVAILABLE! On the contrary, if the light rail was extended the probability is that we would have international, regional and locals patronizing more of our regional assets and the result would be that the NFTA and our local regional assets would become more profitable and require less taxpayer subsidies to meet their operating expenses. YOU HAVE TO INVEST TO GROW! FAILURE TO INVEST IS GUARANTEED TO YIELD NO GROWTH! THUS A SELF FULFILLING PROFECY!

The NFTA will not expand until people demand it! Excuse me! The NFTA is in the transportation business and that is their charter to exist! No waterfront real estate development! WHAT SUCCESSFUL ORGANIZATION SAYS THAT THEIR CUSTOMERS MUST DEMAND THEY DO THEIR JOB!
-did the citizens of Buffalo have to demand that the Buffalo harbor be dredged to accept ships big enough to traverse the Welland Canal. No thats a business decision not a civic decision and they didnt and the Port of Buffalo got bypassed.
-did the citizens of Buffalo demand waterfront development in the outer harbor. Yes! And did the NFTA who owned the property do it! NO! So much for the demands for citizens!
No need to continue you get the point.

Dont blame the citizens! The NFTA and GBNRTC has had 30 years to make the case to the public and to elected representatives as to why our regional assets should be connected by light rail and they have utterly dis-invested themselves of any responsibility to the public.

As Mr Ostrowski would say if the NFTA doesnt deserve the right to its charter or for it to exist and should be disbanded and/or privatized. If the NFTA isnt willing to run its light rail business then it shouldnt have the responsibilities for any transportation or outer harbor related responsibilities.

nice post,

I can't help but notice that this same conversation takes place time and time again on BR every time another article/post regarding Buffalo's transit future is posted. Many of the same ideas continue to be expressed and many seem to agree on the core idea that Buffalo needs improved transit service, whether it be expanded light rail and rail hours, different bus routes and hours, etc.

The fact that it has been around 30 years since the NFTA has installed the first (only) line, and that they have done nothing to expand the existing network is ridiculous. At the time the first line was installed, Buffalo had just under 400,000 residents. It now has lost over 100,000 residents, or more than 25% of its population, and population decrease continues to be cited for the reason why to not extend the network. Some, including downtown businesses, have even gone as far as to blame the lightrail for their ailments, and support returning cars to main street. This will be a complete and total waste of money. Why not spend the money going into this project on increasing the scope of the Metro? Beaurocracy and Politics could get funding to do deconstructive work on a part of the system that works perfectly well, but somehow they can't get money to improve the service that already exists? I don't buy it.

It just goes to show you the strangle-hold the automobile industry has on American politics. We can build hundreds of millions of dollars woth of highways to nowhere (mostly in the southeast US), but can't justify spending that sort of money on trains to somewhere that people might actually have a chance of using? There's a multi-million dollar "bypass" being built in Grundy, VA... where you say? Exactly.

Can BR be used as a way to organize movements instead of just intelligent debate? There seem to be a number of very intelligent and passionate people in Buffalo (many of whom post here), and it seems a shame that they are underutilized in the planning (or lack-of-planning) of Buffalo's future.

Im laughing
Does the Science Museum need citizens to tell them to expand their exhibits?
Does the Historical Museum need citizens to tell them about Buffalos History and what to collect?
Does the Botanical Gardens need citizens to tell them what plants to collect and display?
Does the Zoo need citizens to them what animals they should have?
Does the Parks need citizens to tell them when to mow the lawn or restore/add a feature?

Feedback from citizens and donations from citizens are great but thats their job to put together an organization and service that people want to use! Its their responsibility to know, grow and package their services for the public good!

We would like them to be profitable...we would like them to break even...but non-profits serve a public good and that is why they are given the gift of being a non-profit and so far:
-The Science Center is expanding (GBNRTC approved them decking over the Kensington in their expansion) and the Science Center is partnering with the Historical Museum on the Great Lakes Museum.
-The Historical Society created the Pan Am Celebration, the Make/Invented in Buffalo exhibition and the History of Transportation Exhibition and is pursuing Presidential Libraries.
-The Botanical Gardens are refurbing their entire building and even the Zoo is adding exhibits.
-The Olmstead Conservancy is restoring all the Olmstead Parks

And they are doing it without the public telling them. These local institutions come up with a plan and then inform the citizens of the benefits and new services that they are providing.

Only the NFTA and the GBNRTC refuse to fulfill their responsibilities towards light rail, refuse to submit the forms for federal and state capital reimbursement, refuse to partner with local elected officials at all levels of government, refuse to accept petitions and protests as public demand, refuse refuse refuse!

The NFTA should and could be an engine of growth for our local economy connecting people and jobs and services, bringing suburban developers into the city as they redevelop the land surrounding a light rail corridor, stabilizing communities, bringing state and federal funds to stimulate our local economy and using our tax dollars for local investment instead of allowing them to be redirected to NYC subways through Albany sponsored Metropolitan Bond Acts.

Its like the Thruway saying they need all of Buffalo's tolls for the Buffalo Metropolitan segments of the Thruway...which is utterly false...they take those Buffalo Tolls and put them into a general fund where they are siphoned off for other sections of the state.

Just like they used to be allowed to take the federal funds for Buffalo Transportation projects and put them into a NYS General Fund. Ever wonder why everything in Buffalo is always late...its because the funds were always siphoned off for downstate projects...while allowing dribbles to flow into western ny.....resulting in failed projects and over-runs....which then made it even harder to substantiate investment in our community because of the negative reputation facilitated by Albany. The same Albany that will not let the NFTA have loyalty to their local community: Buffalo!

Ok.....so yeah, you state the obvious...tons of cars drive over the Peace Bridge and lots of people use the airport... what the hell is your point? and what sort of context does this have with my argument?

My point has nothing to do with whether or not light rail should be extended. Personally, I think it would work wonders for our urban core and region.

My point is that politicans and NFTA officials aren't going to give a crap about this issue until their constituents start putting pressure on them. Many of them have no incentive to pursue this issue at all unless somehow their careers suddenly depended upon it. People like Brian Higgins, who actually care about this sort of stuff, are in the minority.

there already is pressure on them....all of them politicians and the NFTA

there needs to be more pressure and they should be personally and professionally attacked until they start doing their jobs

Here in Columbus transportation officials this summer made a smart decision to NOT build a light rail system.

If only Buffalo leaders 30 years ago had such foresight. The Columbus are has 500,000 more residents and growing and decides it doesn't need rail.

So there's no way Buffalo needs anymore rail.

Imagine investing that $1 billion into downtown infrastructure instead of light rail! Imagine all that could be built for that money.

Or just imagine all the money being dumped by taxpayers each year into the existing Metro Rail!

Too bad they won't shut down the Metro Rail and put that money to better use. In the percentage of population, nobody rides the damn thing anyway!

Rick...do us a favor and stay the fu** in Columbus...its a nice place and Buffalonians dont need someone from Columbus telling us not to invest in our city or what to do with it.

People do ride it, our light rail has some of the highest ridership in the nation!

The taxpayers only support about 30% of public transportation and its actually cheaper to run light rail than buses because you get more service, light rail is cheaper than buses in labor, benefits and operation...and we get low cost Niagara Power.

We know what your doing...your an outsider trying to remove the competition for jobs...so Rick dont pull that Bull with Buffalonians or you might be floating down the Niagara River on your next visit.

Hey Rick should Buffalo just hang up a sign that says....Buffalo is closed....see our new home in Columbus...and the remaining 300,000 people can join you in Columbus.

If your an expatriot who cares about Buffalo then you maintain your memberships with the Philharmonic, the Zoo, the Historical Museum, the Science Museum, the Naval Park, the Olmstead Conservancy, the Central Terminal...etc.

Its quite a different thing to be in another city and NOT support any of the things that would improve our economy, improve our quality of life and make Buffalo a better place.....and even worse to TELL BUFFALONIANS WHAT THEY SHOULDNT DO FOR THEIR OWN COMMUNITY!

Who does this guy think he is....

Pokey, I am sure that you are in jest with your Niagara River comment. Please refrain from threatening ex-pats. Everyone is welcome to submit their own opinions whether we agree with them or not. Let's not get this thread any more off track (no pun intended)... and please be nice.

queenseyes, your right! and for the most part people can be right or wrong and be entitled to their opinion....but when someone who dislikes Buffalo tells Buffalonians not to champion a cause for their city...well...you can see where that would inflame a homeboy.

L-
The only additional 'tunnel' built is the 'Tonawanda turn out' at the LaSalle station. It was decided that short spurs off the main line would be added so that if/when an extension using the railroad corridor was constructed, it wouldn't interfere with the existing system. I think that is why the rail system only went to Amherst Street when it first opened- the LaSalle Station and turn-outs weren't completed yet. Who says we don't plan in Buffalo?!?! Unfortunately those turn-outs haven't grown in length in twenty years. :-/

Back on track . . . I spent nearly my entire life living in and commuting by car in the suburbs. Three years ago I decided to try using public transportation -- didn't sell my car until I was sure I could make it work. Luckily, I have a car to borrow when absolutely necessary, but I'm a busser and trainer and lovin' it. A year-and-a-half ago we moved into the city and that makes the switch to public transportation even easier. Granted, I live and work on a bus/train line, but I'd certainly think twice before making a move that would require that I purchase a car!

Our system works, if you really want it to work. (And I'm not talking about those who need a car for their job.) Naturally, I'm all for anything that would lead to the expansion of the system.

http://www.nfta.com/boc.asp
NFTA Board of Commissioners
Gregory Stamm
HEnry Sloma
Eunice Lewin
Theodore Katra
Peter Demakos
Carmen Granto
William Hudson
Stephen Juhasz
Mary Martino
James Roscetti

Lawrence Meckler, Executive Director
716-855-7369

Their pictures are posted on the NFTA website. Call them! Write them! Memorize the names and if you meet someone with that last name ask them what and if there is any relation! Then ask them why their family is more loyal to Albany than to Buffalo and why they will not use their responsibilities to advance and promote light rail extensions!

Talk to them!
Talk to their family!
Google their name for home addresses and phone numbers!

Lets show them just how much they are a part of the Buffalo Community and that even though they probably dont live in Buffalo or ride mass transit they still have a responsibility to the citizens of this city and we will hold them to it!

Gladys and her group obviously doesnt have the spine to do what the average Buffalo Joe and Jane should be doing as a citizen activist!

Ask any business person to run the numbers for business expansion and they will make you rerun the numbers with different options until they get a viable business plan to expand their business.

The NFTA asks to rerun the numbers to contract their business plan and responsibilities. Its time all 50,000 signatores of the petition started calling their office, calling their home and relatives and if necessary ringing their doorbell of them and their relatives.

Let them know that they cant sit in an ivory tower collecting a paycheck for decreasing service and then ask them if they ride buses or light rail to work, ask them where they live and if they are not a customer of their own services they should resign.

Gumby asks what I've been wondering for some time. How often do the officers and administrators of the NFTA use Metro Rail or our buses? They seem excited about and committed to the airport but little else.

If they had to put up with those disorienting and claustrophobia-inducing bus advertising wrappers, they'd be rid of them tomorrow.

All I'm saying is that, given a choice, the enormous amount of money that would be spent on light rail could be better spent elsewhere, like refurishing hundreds of old homes or improving downtown infrastructure or developing the waterfront, etc.

Once things like those are improved, then you can start thinking about mass transit.

Cities the size of Buffalo simply do not have enough people to make mass transit financially viable. I worked in and around Buffalo for 15 years and never saw a true traffic jam.

Besides, this is Buffalo, where they can't build a simple bridge or BassPro shop or convention center or waterfront.

So even if someone does decide to build more light rail, we'd never see it in our lifetimes.

Perhaps I'd see it in my lifetime, Rick. I hate to lump everyone into a pile, but your generation is the worst this country has ever seen. You grew up with the benefits of being the greatest in the world and you squander your opportunities. You lack vision and innovation. Some of us simply aren't happy with the status quo. Who are you to say we shouldn't do anything about it?

By the way, who cares about traffic. Traffic is not the motivation for public transportation. As far as light rail goes it's all about being cheap, efficient, clean, and widely available. This is what public transportation offers a community things that your car will definately not be able to compete with in your lifetime.

Guess what, Rick? There's a lot more choice in the matter. I choose a developed waterfront, hip downtown, vibrant suburbs, and contemporary transportation. It isn't as simple as pick one or the other. That simply isn't the way development works. Buffalonians want all these things and there is no reason why they all can't happen.

Hey Rick,

A list of cities smaller than Buffalo that have light rail systems.

Austria
Gmunden-Haag
Graz-Innsbruck-LInz
Salzburg

Belarus
Mazyr
vitebsk

Belgium
Chaleroi

Croatia
Osijek

I really don't have to go on. I've haven't even gotten through the C's. So stop saying the region can't support a system. It's not a population issue, Rick. Try again.

Very funny, Mel.

Any U.S. cities? You can't possibly compare European lifestyles with car-loving Americans. Our transportation systems are vastly different. Those cities probably don't have the espansive highway system we do, either.

Also, I too would want everything for Buffalo that you mentioned. But unfortunately I do live in the Real World and there's only so much government money to go around so, yes, you do have to choose which projects you want.

Traffic IS the issue.

At this point, why in the world would someone want to spend an hour to get to work taking light rail when they can drive to work in 20 minutes?

Light rail is more expensive to take, even with today's high gas prices.

A car gives me freedom - I can come and go as I please and if I decide I want to stop off at a store or restaurant on the way home, I can't do that with public transportation.

I'm not against mass transit, but you need the masses for it to work. There has to be a need for it to be successful and WNY simply doesn't have enough people, or the potential of growth, to support a light rail system.

Why spend a billion dollars on light rail when everyone drives to work?

First a billion dollars would gives us a system paramount to NYC. No one is asking for that.

Since when can't you go to work with public transport. I do, it takes 6 minutes, my dad drives downtown and it takes him 15. I can stop at and walk to dozens of restaurants on my way home.

Perhaps you havne't been to Europe Rick. The highway system is may not be as expansive as it is in the US but that's because they got away from it faster, probably because they don't have people like you to hold things back. But don't presume highways don't exist. I've spent enough time in Austria to make a decent comparison to New York State. Things are actually quite similar.

Public transportation is cheaper than having a car. Let's do some math. $600 a year is all that it cost for public transportation here. How much does a car cost? Well there's the car, which already costs more. The car must be maintained. The car must be fueled. The driver needs insurance. That's several thousand dollars for the car owner. You lose again.

Last thing, the real world extends further than the US. The rest of the world and the vast majority of it is on board when it comes to public transport. I don't know what world you live in but I'm trying to catch up with the rest of the planet.

Also, it's a bit unfair to ask for cities in the US as Buffalo is the smallest with a system. But, Rochester and Birmingham are just two cities that have proposed light rail systems in the past year. Both are smaller than Buffalo.

First of all, it would easily be $1 billion for new light rail, depending on how extensive the system is. Buffalo's current Metro Rail cost a half a billion and that was 30 years ago!

Second, you don't incorporate that cost into the cost of using mass transit. All of our taxes go up to subsidize that system. Which, by the way, drives away business from WNY, too.

Third, i would never follow anyting that's done in Europe. Why follow someone that's so far behind us technologically, socially, etc. Europeans are lazy and failures, why would we want to do what they do? We always have to bail them out, whether it's war or economically.

Fourth, you're very limited to the number of shops, restaurants, etc. if you rely on mass transit.

By the way, you live with your dad and work in the same area and it takes him twice as long to get to work? You'll have to explain that one, but I know from my mass transit experience in Maryland that even there, with all the traffic, it's still faster to drive to work.

For my sister outside of Chicago it takes her 10 or 15 minutes just to drive to the train station. Ditto for me in Maryland.

I'm not going to waste time going into work 30 minutes earlier or leave 30 minutes later just to catch a train. I'd rather have the freedom a car gives me.

Which brings me to my final point - Americans love cars. They love the freedom they bring. They are not going to give that up unless they have a great reason to, namely if it's cheaper and quicker to use mass transit, which it isn't and likely never will be in Buffalo.

Ahhh Buffalo.... Our beautiful lady by the lake. How we praise her and damn her in the same breath... Of course we should expand the metro rail. That being said, we need to have it done in a way that best serves the entire region.

Some years ago there was road work being done on Niagara Falls blvd. During that road work they unearthed train tracks running right down the middle of the road - work was halted. After some investigation it was found that there was at one time a trolley service that ran from Buffalo to Niagara Falls, HMmmm.

When you look at almost any old photos of Buffalo you'll find the evidence of trolley traffic. This worked for Buffalo at a time when there were a LOT more people in Buffalo.

Give the people an easier way to do something and more often than not they will flock to it. This is neither good nor bad inherently, but rather a fact of human nature.

I would not site the disappearance of easy access rail transportation as a reason for the decline of the population of buffalo, but a correlation could be made.

The existing rail line down main st. was obviously built to try and coax people downtown, that did not work. They envisioned a grand pedestrian mall, with the metro bisecting an urban shopping extravaganza. No such luck. I guess you roll the dice...

Any further development of the metro rail should strive to "connect the dots". Centers of commerce, industry and population. A station at the Walden Galleria makes a lot of sense, a station at Maple and Hopkins in Amherst does not. Think of the Metro rail from a business perspective. Put the stations where people ARE or where they want to GO. Airport - Makes sense (providing you are making the supposition that a large portion of airport patrons head into the city). Peace Bridge (?) - makes no sense. Think like you own a little shop in the city that does quite well. You want to expand and remain profitable, where do you go? Again, where the people ARE, and where they GO.

I love this part of the world; we have a lot going on.
- Metro Rail of Dreams, if you dig it they will come.
ALLONS!!!

Our system had such a large price tag because of the underground construction costs. No one wants to build underground. Avergage cost is $25 mil a mile. Buffalo would be cheaper because all proposed lines and several stations along the way already exist!

It's great you have experience in Maryland, but this post is about BUFFALO. How can you tell me I'm limited, you're not even here? How can you possibly argue with me if you don't even have knowledge of the system that I use everyday?

It's clear from your comments about Europe that you are indeed a stupid American. You are possibly the most provincial and ignorant person I've ever talked to.

For 10% of Buffalonians it is cheaper and quicker to use the light rail. You just wouldn't know about it's success and use since YOU AREN'T HERE. It would be for many more if they only had access to it.

One more thing, you love cars. You can hardly speak for 300 million people. You shouldn't even be speakign for the ones that live in WNY for that matter. You aren't even one of us.

I lived and worked in and around Buffalo for the first 40 years of my life so I'm sure I know the town better than you.

And you can hardly speak for 1 million people who live in WNY.

From the last I heard, Metro Rail gets about 25,000 riders/ day? That's nothing. To help 10 percent of Buffalonians? Big deal. And people's and businesses' tax dollars are being spent so you can ride a train to work? The Metro Rail gets 30 percent of its funding from taxpayers!! And you wonder why no business wants to move to WNY?

All I'm saying is there are many better ways to improve Buffalo and energies should be directed in those directions.

You're a typical Buffalonian - looking for a Silver Bullet to solve Buffalo's woes.

Ultimately, how does more light rail help WNY?

Does it take more cars off the road? No, since we don't have traffic problems.

So how does it help WNY? What problem does it solve?

Christ, Buffalo desperately needs a new Peace Bridge, which would solve a lot of problems, and you people are worried about light rail?????

No, I'm not looking for a silver bullet. Look at all of my posts and tell me when I touted rail as a source for economic development. I haven't. I just think public transportation should be appropratly funded and moved towards. All around it's better for everyone than driving. BTW, not everyone has a car to tout their lazy but around in like you. Do some research before you spar with me!

I also haven't tried to speak for anyone but myself. You are the "bloviator".

You may have been here before but I've been here the most recent 20 and reside here now. I'm the future, you're old news. There's no question that my opinion and those of my peers matters more than your failed generation.

Ultimately, how does more light rail help WNY?

Does it take more cars off the road? No, since we don't have traffic problems.

So how does it help WNY? What problem does it solve?

Christ, Buffalo desperately needs a new Peace Bridge, which would solve a lot of problems, and you people are worried about light rail?????

How? It provides tranportation for the masses. Lowers costs of transportation as well because, guess what Rick, light rail is cheaper to operate than buses. Our small contribution to a more environmentally friendly world. That's benefit enough for me. Hundreds of cities and millions if not billions of people have been convinced.

You'd have people believe they're wrong becasue some of them live in Europe. Well they live in Asia, South America, North, Austrailia, and Africa.

Another thing, you can stop using "we". You don't live here anymore.

So you just want light rail to help the environment? There are a lot of other, cheaper ways to help the environment, like building more fuel-effcient cars instead of hybrids or ethanol cars, which only hurt the environment. The automakers can make them, they choose not to.

Light rail may be cheaper than buses, but it's not cheaper than driving your own car.

Driving your own car is also less time consuming.

And the less time we use getting to and from work, the more time we have to work or spend with our families or do volunteer work or anything else that advances society.

Maybe if those people in Asia, South America, etc. weren't so busy riding the train, they'd actually do some work and not have to have the U.S. bail them out all the time.

More ignorance, Rick. The environment is only one of the benefits I mentioned. Where did you get the information that's it's cheaper than cars, I already broke down the economics for you. And don't try saying that it needs to be tax payer funded. It does, but so do the roads and highways you drive on. They require far more money than a track.

Driving is more time consuming compared to rail. Rail moves faster than cars, a lot faster. I like to read a book or the newspaper during my trip. Although my commutes are short, I've managed to read 4 books this summer just on my commute.

You obviously don't know sciene either. You're right that the automakers could make more fuel efficient vehicles. Why don't they though? Why should they invest in it when they stand to make better profits the way things are now with you driving around all day. Hybrids and ethanol aren't bad for the envrionment. Ethanol we put in gasoline makes the gas burn MORE effiently. Brazil has recently switched to all ethanol and has been praised by the international community, including the US. Gasp!

For someone so old, you seem to be ignorant on history too. It's pretty obvious you haven't been overseas or you wouldn't be able to say things like that.

In Maryland, by the time I drove to the train station and waited for light rail, I could have been almost halfway to work. Why do you think so few people take mass transit? It takes way too long!!!! Hello!!

Sure, trains move faster than cars, but you also have to take the time to get to the trains and then get from the trains to work. Then there are all the stops it has to make. A little common sense, please.

I don't know science? A switch to ethanol would literally ruin the world. If we used all the corn we grown right now for ethanol, it would only save us 15 percent of fuel consumption. And then we'd have no corn left over to eat or feed our livestock. Ditto for soybeans.

Not to mention it's bad for the environment because of all of the natural gas or oil used to make the ethanol. I know, I write about it all the time. I live in Ohio - one of the largest ethanol-producing states. Also, the process consumes trillions of gallons of water. We have a water shortage as it is - no water and no food: that's a good alternative!

Brazil's ethanol program is a disaster! The government spends billions per year subsidizing it, prices are kept reasonable because the corn and surgar used are gathered by child slave labor and most of Brazil is poor so few people own cars so there's not much fuel consumption.

Plus, since it was such a failure to run cars only on ethanol - many cars wouldn't start in cold weather - the country stopped making ethanol-only cars six years ago!

A major reason why Brazil has become energy self-sufficient is because it is producing a lot more of it's OWN oil!!! Ethanol accounts for less than 10 percent of liquid energy sources.

And I don't need to go overseas to know that one-third of the world outside of the U.S. doesn't even have electricity - including much of Brazil. Not to mention the hundreds of billions of dollars we send to other countries in foreign aid.

So, yeah, the rest of the world is really kicking ass.

Mel stop talking to this Rick....he either works for the NFTA or he is an expat who doesnt support any local issues and is more saboteur/pessimist.

Why even engage in a conversation with someone who doesnt wish you, or Buffalo or Buffalonians the best as many of our expats do?

This person hasnt donated money or maintained any memberships in any of our non-profits and culturals nor does he vote in our area so his only weapon is his toxic pessimism which he hopes to infect those people who stayed in Buffalo. So dont engage him and allow his contagion to spread.

Mel even with hybrids there is still a need for mass transit. The plans for the next generation hybrids are infact not even electric their hydrolic and capture 30-40% more fuel efficiency, biodiesel and ethanol are better fillers than the MTBE that poisoned our drinking water but looking into the future all transportation alternatives are gaining value. High Speed Rail is making a comeback to compete with air for distances under 300mph just as mass transit is making a comeback as an alternative to cars and if California can embrace Mass Transit then that says alot for the future of the rest of the country.

http://www.nfta.com/boc.asp
NFTA Board of Commissioners
Gregory Stamm
HEnry Sloma
Eunice Lewin
Theodore Katra
Peter Demakos
Carmen Granto
William Hudson
Stephen Juhasz
Mary Martino
James Roscetti

Lawrence Meckler, Executive Director
716-855-7369

Their pictures are posted on the NFTA website. Call them! Write them! Memorize the names and if you meet someone with that last name ask them what and if there is any relation! Then ask them why their family is more loyal to Albany than to Buffalo and why they will not use their responsibilities to advance and promote light rail extensions!

Talk to them (at home or work)!
Talk to their family! (at home or work)
make a personal visit (at home or work)
Google their name for home addresses and phone numbers!

Lets show them just how much they are a part of the Buffalo Community and that even though they probably dont live in Buffalo or ride mass transit they still have a responsibility to the citizens of this city and we will hold them to it!

Gladys and her group obviously doesnt have the spine to do what the average Buffalo Joe and Jane should be doing as a citizen activist!

In Maryland, by the time I drove to the train station and waited for light rail, I could have been almost halfway to work. Why do you think so few people take mass transit? It takes way too long!!!! Hello!!

Sure, trains move faster than cars, but you also have to take the time to get to the trains and then get from the trains to work. Then there are all the stops it has to make. A little common sense, please.

I don't know science? A switch to ethanol would literally ruin the world. If we used all the corn we grown right now for ethanol, it would only save us 15 percent of fuel consumption. And then we'd have no corn left over to eat or feed our livestock. Ditto for soybeans.

Not to mention it's bad for the environment because of all of the natural gas or oil used to make the ethanol. I know, I write about it all the time. I live in Ohio - one of the largest ethanol-producing states. Also, the process consumes trillions of gallons of water. We have a water shortage as it is - no water and no food: that's a good alternative!

Brazil's ethanol program is a disaster! The government spends billions per year subsidizing it, prices are kept reasonable because the corn and surgar used are gathered by child slave labor and most of Brazil is poor so few people own cars so there's not much fuel consumption.

Plus, since it was such a failure to run cars only on ethanol - many cars wouldn't start in cold weather - the country stopped making ethanol-only cars six years ago!

A major reason why Brazil has become energy self-sufficient is because it is producing a lot more of it's OWN oil!!! Ethanol accounts for less than 10 percent of liquid energy sources.

And I don't need to go overseas to know that one-third of the world outside of the U.S. doesn't even have electricity - including much of Brazil. Not to mention the hundreds of billions of dollars we send to other countries in foreign aid.

So, yeah, the rest of the world is really kicking ass.

Just because I make comments you disagree with means I don't want to see Buffalo succeed? Can you get any more narrow-minded? That's part of the mindset that's held Buffalo back.

I'm simply saying that in Buffalo's position, money could be invested a lot better than in a mass transit system - there is no 'mass' in WNY! It's like Springfield getting a monorail!

Spend the money instead on fixing up blighted neighborhoods or more development for the waterfront or to build a new damn Peace Bridge. Or in business incubators. Those would help the city much more than any light rail.

That said, I have been a huge supporter of high-speed rail for years. There are even plans to hook up Cincinnati-Cleveland-Chicago-Buffalo into a system. That would be awesome!

I guess you forgot that cars make stops too. Actually, in urban environments they make more stops than cars. Gasp!

Since when do you need to burn oil or gas to make ethanol. There are lots of other sources of energy. Two in WNY include wind and hydroelectric. And ethanol production produces water as a biproduct. Not that there's a water shortage anyway. Living in the Great Lakes region, you of all people shouldn't complain about water. But that isn't the point.

It's good that you're proud of your country, but you take it to a level of blind faith. Before you start bashing other nations expalain why we can't even take care of New Orleans. Explain why we're 26th in education. Explain why when it comes to public welfare, the US is the worst of any industrialized nation.

In conclusion, you are a troll. This will be my last response to you.

You really need to educate and humble yourself. I hope your job gets outsourced to India.

Outsourcing is good for our economy. Ask any economist - Democrat or Republican.

We're doing pretty damn good for a country ranked 26th in education - whatever that means. Best economy. Best health-care system. Best productivity. Most of the important innovations in the past century have come from the U.S.

I'll take that.

At least I never resorted to name-calling in any of my posts.

Thought I could have an open-minded debate. Guess I was wrong. If you disagree with people on this site, they don't want to hear it.

Rick disqualifies himself from any further notice, when he says " outsourcing is good for our economy". It will never be good for ANY economy, anywhere.

Thank you Dr. Kay for clearing that up. I am glad that we have such an economic expert on this thread who can make sweeping generalizations about such complicated topics as outsourcing... that don't have anything to do with the topic of the comment board. Thank you for contributing positively to this discussion.

Look this is a ridiculous argument because there is nor justification for ignoring bringing federal and state monies to extend our light rail in Buffalo.

There is no argument to allowing Albany to continually overtax our region with buracracy and unfunded mandates and continue to redirect our taxes and tolls and fees to general funds in Albany that are then redirected to NYC and Long Island.

There is no argument about the stupidity of thinking that a penny saved is a penny returned to local taxpayers...because a penny saved is returned to Albany general funds and not to local taxpayers!

Buffalo, according to the Federal Government, is one of the best cities in the nation for high speed rail and bullet trains because of its close proximity to other major cities within a 300mile radius and becoming a high speed rail center will only enhance our role as a transportation center helping our airport too!

As far as the argument about air travel and rail travel, there is no argument...air is better for long distance travel but its a high volitility industry susceptable to fuel prices and terrorism....rail is equally competitive over shorter distances under 300miles and is desperately needed as an alternative should a calamity shut down our airports again.

As far as mass transit versus cars, there is no argument. If Buffalo is to survive then it must expand on its historical role as a regional hub for air, rail, bus, car, ship, canal, light rail, etc. With a metropolitan area of over a million we cannot let 1 million cars descend on the city...so we create transportation alternatives...so people can use their cars and mass transit to suit different needs. Yes there are people who have cars and take the light rail to hockey (sports), theater (entertainment), retail (restaurants), etc to save themselves from the parking, tickets and traffic jams.

There is no doubt that a light rail to UB, to the Airport, to South Buffalo and Niagara Falls are all needed and would all be patronized and would all be no more or less a burden than the existing system but with the multiplier effect of bringing the disposable incomes and jobs of hundreds of thousands of people to our city.

YES, no one is talking about the multiplier effect. You know why cities want their airports to be hubs...because of the multiplier effects...do you know why cities want major employers over 1000 -2000 employees because of the multiplier effect. The big reason why the Convention Center is beneficial to our region....you guessed it...the multiplier effect. YET YOU IDIOTS TALK ONLY OF THE FINANCIAL VIABILITY OF LIGHT RAIL WITHOUT ANY DISCUSSION OF THE MULTIPLIER EFFECT THAT LIGHT RAIL EXTENSIONS HAVE ON DOWNTOWN AND THE CORRIDORS BEING SERVED.

YOU EVEN TALK ABOUT TAXES WITHOUT ANY CONCEPT OF ALBANY AND HOW ALBANY SIPHONS SAVINGS BACK TO THE GENERAL FUNDS OR SEES THE SAVINGS AND CUTS THEIR STATE AID. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TAXPAYER SAVINGS!

LOOK AT OUR NIAGARA POWER...LOOK AT THE METROPOLITAN BOND ACT...LOOK AT OUR TOLL BOOTHS...ALL SIPHON MONEY FROM BUFFALO BACK TO THE ALBANY GENERAL FUND FOR DOWNSTATE.

THE CLEAR LESSON FOR BUFFALO IS NOT TO SPEND ON EXPENDITURES (SALARIES, BENEFITS) BUT TO SPEND ON INVESTMENT (BUILDINGS, INFRASTRUCTURE, BROWNFIELDS, DEVELOPMENT)!

TO WHICH LIGHT RAIL IS AN INVESTMENT NOT AN EXPENSE!

First of all, downstate supports WNY, not the other way around. Everyone downstate complains that their tax money goes to subsidize WNY - and they're right.

Second, in the 1960s the city of Buffalo had more than 400,000 people - it was booming. And it was booming without mass transit. If a bigger, better Buffalo didn't need it then, why would it need it now?

Buffalo is already the smallest city in the nation that has a rail system.

Buffalo simply isn't a big enough of a city to support a light rail system. Even if half the commuters rode the light rail, it wouldn't be enough.

That said, I agree about the multiplier affect.

People say Buffalo's always look for a silver bullet. Well, silver bullets work!! Look at the new museum in Milwaukee. It brings thousands of new people downtown. Ditto for new convention centers.

And those silver bullets translate into hundreds of peripheral jobs.

Build a light rail system? No.

Build a new convention center, comedy hall of fame, Lake Erie museum, waterfront amusement park? Absolutely.

Simply put:

Why would someone near the airport or in Tonawanda take a train downtown when they could get there twice as fast by driving?

Buffalo had a trolley and Light Rail System and Interurban up until the late 50s so you could argue that the the decline that Buffalo saw in the late 60s could have been mitigated if the previous system still existed instead of being allowed to be dismantled.

Rick do you work for the NFTA...why are such a putz! No one agrees with you ....idiot! What are you even doing in the Buffalo chat room when your in Colombus!

Buffalos future is in its new convention center, new Great Lakes Museum on the waterfront, recreated Erie Canal Wharf, etc but their success depends on a thriving downtown...and a thriving downtown depends on connecting our regional assets in Niagara Falls, the Airport, UB Amherst and South Buffalo. Studies which have been posted above all say that extending Buffalos light rail is possible and would be break even to profitable.

BTW, you think downstate supports upstate....well I wouldnt say that to the people who live in the economies of Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, or Utica/Rome. There is practically a bible of lost and cancelled and over-budget and over cost projects because of Abans unfunded mandates, buracracy and outright theft of funds allocated for upstate into Albanys general fund with then gets redirected to supposedly higher priority projects downstate.....I would tell Buffalonians that downstate is supporting them....their libel to remind you of the extortion of thruway tolls and others

Your an idiot that doesnt know or care a damn about Buffalo as can be easily evidenced by your statements. When the people of Buffalo tar and feather the NFTA then I hope they come get you in Columbus.

But no one has answered my simple question:

Why would someone ride a light rail downtown when it would be quicker to drive?

Unless you can answer that simple question, then there's no need for light rail.

And no, I don't work for the NFTA - it's one of the biggest reasons why WNY is where it is.

According to the U.S. Dept. of Transportation, only 0.4 percent of Buffalo workers take the Metro Rail to work.

No one on this chat room has been able to explain, in specifics, how light rail will help WNY!!!!!!

Will it make it easier for people to get around? No. Driving is much quicker.

Other than moving people around, there is no purpose for light rail.

Can't anyone explain, specifically, how more light rail will help Buffalo?????

your not a resi