Ethanol Production in Buffalo- A Natural
Several pieces of Buffalo’s milling past are poised to become a participant in its future. RiverWright Energy LLC, headed by businessmen Rick Smith and Kevin Townsell, is planning an $80 million ethanol production plant that is expected to employ 65 when completed in 2007. The facility will be located off of Childs Street and utilize four vacant grain elevators plus construction of an 80,000 sq.ft. production facility. In April, RiverWright also purchased a warehouse and mill located at 139-157 Buffalo River Place off of South Park Avenue for $120,000 from ConAgra/Maple Leaf Milling. Photo (queenseyes): Rick Smith surveys the future facility.
The facility will utilize up to 40 million bushels of corn annually, much of it arriving from the midwest via lake freighter. With few exceptions, corn is the primary feedstock for U.S. ethanol production. Ethanol can also be made from other products such as grain sorghum (milo), wheat, barley, sugar cane or beets, cheese whey, and potatoes.
Ethanol is used in reformulated gasoline (RFG) as set out in the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990. This standard requires an oxygenate, like ethanol, to be added to gasoline to help it burn more completely. At the state level, Washington , Minnesota, Montana, and Hawaii have passed ethanol-blended fuel requirements.
U.S. ethanol production is reaching unprecedented levels. Currently there are 101 ethanol production facilities in the U.S. and 47 more under construction. In 2004, 3.4 billion gallons of ethanol were produced in the nation, up from 2.81 billion gallons the previous year. By the end of 2005, the ethanol industry reached a capacity of more than 4 billion gallons.
In May, Governor George E. Pataki announced nearly $6 million in State funding to assist Western New York Energy in the development of the first dry mill ethanol plant in New York State. The $87.4 million facility will be located on 144 acres in the Town of Shelby, Orleans County. It is expected to produce 50 million gallons of ethanol a year and create 58 new jobs. The Buffalo facility is expected to produce 110 million gallons of ethanol annually.
Get connected: U.S. Coalition for Ethanol
This is a natural for Buffalo! Im glad that Medina got an ethanol plant since they lost a significant employer in their town but they are part of the 8 county region and the plant in Buffalo adds to our regions rich history in Chemicals and Energy.
But I have to toss in a dose of reality which I have posted many times in the past. Look at Buffalo Niagara for a minute:
1) Niagara Power Project (Hydro)
2) Heat Pumps
3) Wind Farms
4) Natural Gas Production in Southern Tier
5) Oil Production in Southern Tier
6) Huntington Station being converted to Coal Gasification
7) Buffalo NanoTechnologies (Ceramics for Fuel Cells)
8) Proposed Distributed Heating Technology for downtown business district
9) The GM Engine Plant is both the largest and one of the only Engine Plants in the world that make engines capable of running on E85!
And there is more!
Now in Gods name can someone answer me why the pig in a dress Hillary Clinton wants to make ROCHESTER a NATIONAL CENTER FOR ALTERNATIVE FUELS! Yes Pig! When Buffalo has as much industrial history and technology in this area and then ignores Buffalo for locating a national center for Alternative Fuels I condemn her!
Next reality point! Take a look at the Buffalo Niagara Enterprise's Target Industries:
http://www.buffaloniagara.org/Home/Doing_Business/TargetIndustries
http://www.buffaloniagara.org/Home/Doing_Business/IndustryClusterProfiles
Do you see Power Generation and Alternative Energy as a growing industry worth targeting! Look at the industries they have targeted! They are mostly consolidating industries and how many jobs have been created in those industries! Meanwhile we have 4 local announcements in Power Generation: 2 Ethanol Plants, GM E85 Engines, Huntington Coal Gasification without any BNE involvement!
What does that exactly say about Hillary Clinton and our so called experts and the Buffalo Niagara Enterprise!
GREAT NEWS !!!!! :D
- re-use of old grain silos
- total private investment
- new jobs
- increased shipping and rail traffic to buffalo
Sweeet!
L, when you aren't busy being a racist and anti-Semite, you often have opinions that are near coherent, which is why I imagine the moderators of this site tolerate you.
"Pig in a dress"? What purpose does that serve other than to undermine your argument? Disagree with her. Question her motives. Say she hasn't done enough or anything for the area. But, "pig in a dress"?
Really, who raised you?
Ethanol must be mixed with gasoline at a distributor. It cannot be piped. A strong argument for Buffalo to try to attract more refiners and distributors back to our local economy. Mobil was an idiot to have closed its refinery in Buffalo. Mobils refinery with our local ethanol production and GMs E85 engines .... you cant ask more more complementary industries to be colocated in an area.
Buffalo should also be looking at suppliers and secondary and tertiary technologies that complement power generation and Alternative Fuels. Isnt there a local company that makes power generation turbines? Add that to the list too!
And Bantam.
Hillary Clinton is an insincere media whore who patronizes national issues at the expense of her suffering consituents. Read the local industries involved in Power Generation & Alternative Fuels then tell my why she wants to make Rochester a national center instead of Buffalo!
Bantam tell me where are the local experts leading the Buffalo Niagara Partnership and explain to me why Material Science isnt a Target Industry and why Power Generation & Alternative Fuels a target industry? These people are supposed to be bringing jobs and industries to Buffalo and the there are whole sectors of our industrial economy that arent even on their radar!
Come on! We cant reform DC or Albany but we can certainly slap some of these people and wake them up from their self centered media whoring (Clinton) or myopic stupidity of our local economy (BNP)! Come on BNP what exactly do you have to say for yourself! How long are you going to ignore targeting the other 4-5 local industries that deserve your attention!
PS Bantam, I am not a racist or an anti-semite. I speak from fact, from experience, from moral and ethical beliefs. If that isnt good enough for you then your the one with the problem.
"you're" the one with a problem, L. A big spelling/editing problem.
Sometimes
when we get some good news
it would be nice
if people could be happy about it
instead of digging up other things to bitch about.
Just another opportunity to market buffalo, the local politians should ride this for all it is worth. Dont stop here we have to get the word out and take advantage of our insustrial past. Please dont stop here this could be our economic catalyst for our future. A HUGE step in the right direction.
WAIT!! IT AINT OVER YET!!! A frivulous lawsuit will be probably filed to stop this project too. SOMEONE keep an eye or two on NIMBY and BANANA lawyers...it aint over yet!!
And L.....MANY great people have been persecuted for speaking their minds , dont let those who would keep you from doing so, STOP you!!
What a great idea. You can almost feel "new buffalo" coming together.
However (and at the risk of sounding like a 'banana'), there are serious questions that need to be asked. One would think that a Sunday Edition front page story would have warranted a more thorough interview.
Below are some links to stories expressing concern regarding the pollution these plants can create. The second article is actually from the Des Moine Register, not exactly an unfair critic of the corn industry.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/03/tech/main508006.shtml
http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050911/NEWS03/509110345/1005
Our region has enough property that is need of industrial waste clean up as it is. One must be cautiously optimistic that this won't be yet another ,30-50 years down the road
"Now in Gods name can someone answer me why the pig in a dress Hillary Clinton wants to make ROCHESTER a NATIONAL CENTER FOR ALTERNATIVE FUELS!"
Because she has sewn up the vote here and needs to woo Rochester.
Dear Mr Heneghan,
The distillation process for ethanol is the same for beer and liquor. Are Beer and Liquor Distillors hazardous waste sites? No! Im not concerned.
Methanol is flammable and could be captured and sold as a commodity or burned to generate power for the plant.
Why? Because these ethanol factories are going to be changing dramatically in the next 5 years as sonics and genetically engineered enzymes are created to manufacture ethanol thus diversifying the fuel from grains to sewar waste and municipal waste and to faster growing alternatives like switchgrass while eliminating many of the current chemical additives in the process.
May I say that with the Bio-Informatics located in Buffalo it would be a perfect ancillary project for their computers and scientists....creating the next generation enzyme for fuel digestion and ethanol production, as well as, opportunities to come up with high tech alternatives to some of the chemicals...and advancements in the technology.
Plus your forgetting that this is NYS...not IOWA ...we have a very long history of chemical plants in our area and this plant should know better than to use anything but the latest equipment and processes. If they dont they will be inspected and monitored and fined.
Its going to be easier working with an Ethanol Plant than with the former Mobil Oil refinery that had a much more complex chemical process.
Id rather work with them knowing that improvements and solutions are but a few years away than pass on the opportunity and let another city take the plant and the technology and the future opportunities. Wouldnt you?
One has to ask with so many opportunities why that media whore Clinton wants to put a national center for alternative fuels in Rochester instead of Buffalo!
One has to ask with so many opportunities why Material Science, Power Generation&Distribution, Alternative Energy arent BNP target industries!
In a city starved for jobs....where are these people who are supposed to be experts representing us and leading our city into the future!
L,
I didn't use the word 'hazardous'...HMMM
The Red Herring. We could do better than this
Dave,
I don't want to argue that we should not do this because almost all of the science out there suggests it uses more energy than it creates.
My query is myopic. What is the cost to Buffalo. If it does all it purports
without any unreasonable consequences to the environment or other projects currently being negotiated for the waterfront, I don't care if it is 'junk science.'
It may even help our representatives curry votes from their brethren in the midwest on other issues near and dear to our hearts. Doubt it!
in reference to rochester getting an alternative fuel center...
Rochester has been hemorraging jobs at a f aster rate than buffalo in the last couple years.
Buffalo isn't the only city in WNY that needs help.
This project is so great. I never thought those grain elevators would ever be used again.
L you sound like a petulant child who needs all the toys in the chest and doesn't want to share. Hillary is the Senator of all of NYS not just Buffalo. She has to spread the ggodies around. What the phuck, is wrong with that, Buffalo has its center of excellence, now Rochester gets theirs. just too damn bad if you don't get all the attention all the time.
It just seems like E85 is a short term response to a greater problem. It doesn't rear itself as a long term response to sustainable energy, and I think we need to look a little further than that. Looking further also means taking giant risks - and I think Buffalo needs to take that type of leap to bring people back and bring jobs back.
l b the way ..why why don't you send that bitch of yours to hillary via GOLI. Tell him how you think it sucks that Rochester is getting something..
It 's interesting to speculate whether or not these businessmen would have even considered the City of Buffalo as the location for their new ethanol enterprise, had these "eyesores" (as the vacant grain elevators are so often described on this site and others) been demolished and unavailable to them. It will be exciting to see these legacies retrofitted, and let's hope the new construction is an architectural contribution to the city.
There seems to be very considerable statistical evidence that the production of corn ethanol is a wash, in terms of use of oil and petrochemicals. But, technology changes rapidly when necessity finally dictates, and maybe the use of other biomass will be part of this operation, too.
Anyway, it's great to see a plan that is both historic preservation and a step toward re-industrialization, assuming it will be carried out with adequate concerns for the health and safety of the community.
Ethanol may already be on the verge of becomming obsolete .ck the link
Its here now ,, all electric car with 450 mile range..
http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1
uutt, not quite its going to be a very long time before that car is in the $10,000 range.
Now let me respond to some points
1) Joe d, thanks
2) Thomas Heneghan....you didnt mention hazardous waste but the links/articles you referenced in your post did.
3) Dave may I suggest you google a magazine called the "New Scientist" and search for articles on ethanol. You will find that ethanol is infact more environmentally friendly than gasoline and biodiesal is even more so.
4) Dave and Heneghan, you should also check out "The New Scientist" for new technologies related to ethanol such as using sonics to break up the fiber raising yields 30% or more, new enzymes to which Buffalo's Bio-informatics could do R&D, etc all of which are going to replace chemicals involved in the process and reduce pollutants.
4) Dave and Heneghan, I would also like to introduce you to a company that is further down the curve to the next generation ethanol and biodiesal production. Its called Changing World Technologies and they have a process that takes everything organic: Plastics, Paper, Municipal Waste, Industrial Waste, etc. Imagine closing our Sewar Treatment plant and redirecting all our organic industrial and municipal waste to energy production.....we could make all of Squaw Island a Park. Check out their link.
5) Mark & Fargo how magnanimous of you to spread Buffalos economic future around the state but before you do may I recommend that you search to find out that Rochester has multiple Centers for Excellence while Buffalo has only one!
5.1) Center for Excellence in Infotonics
5.2) Center for Excellence in Optoelectronics
5.3) Center for Excellence in Photonics
5.4) Center for Excellence in AutoImmune Diseases (Huntingtons, HIV, etc)
6) Mark and Fargo, Id like to also inform you that NYS Center for Environment and Energy is located Syracuse.
http://www.syracusecoe.org/
http://www.esf.edu/energycenter/
So please explain to everyone why you think that Rochester deserves a NATIONAL CENTER FOR EXCELLENCE IN ROCHESTER when NYS's Center is in Syracuse and when Buffalo has more companies than Rochester and Syracuse involved in Material Science, Power Generation and Distribution and Alternative Energy.
Please explain why NYSs Center is in Syracuse but Hillary Clinton wants a National Center in Rochester! Will you not demand fairness, self respect, dignity for your hometown Buffalo! Have you no backbone to fight for your cities economic rights and future!
Why do I call Hillary Clinton a pig in a dress? Because look at how she wants to give the golden egg of yet another Center for Excellence to Rochester while ignoring Buffalo.....and here is where the pig part comes in....look at the pork she has delivered to her constituents who voted for her in Buffalo COMPARED TO THE PORK SHE HAS PUT IN HER OWN CAMPAIGN FUND NOT JUST FOR HER RE-ELECTION AS SENATOR BUT HER RUN FOR THE PRESIDENCY! THIS LITTLE PIGGY IS SITTING AT THE TABLE AND KEEPING ALL THE BACON FOR HER OWN SELFISH INTERESTS TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE BUFFALONIANS WHO TRUSTED HER, BELIEVED IN HER AND ELECTED HER!
When it comes to the BNP and Hillary Clinton and Louise Slaughter its Buffalo is consistently the little piggy thats gets none and is going wah wah wah all the way home.
Don't use corn for ethanol. Use Switchgrass.
It takes practically no energy to grow, very little fertilizer, very little water. Dirt Cheep and grows anywhere. People think Ethanol is produced from corn, but that is not true, it can be produced from many plants.
Switchgrass can produce up to 100 gallons of ethanol per metric ton. That's an extremely high yield. Swichgrass is native to Americas Midwest and easily takes hold in arid fields considered to be destroyed from over farming, and cotton growing.
Why aren't we doing this already if it's such a good idea? Because the corn lobby in Washington is very strong, and federal subsidies usually target corn based fuel production. We can only eat so much corn, so if we begin to use corn for things like ethanol production, the demand for corn will increase and therefore so will the price. And big agribusinesses will be making more money per ear of corn. That's why they are spending so much money pushing corn based ethanol.
Maybe as RiverWright Energy designs the new plant they will gear it toward Switchgrass based ethanol. It could substantially lower their overhead costs. Auburn University has been doing research on Switchgrass, Investors may want to contact Dave Bransby at Auburn to find out who else is growing Switchgrass.
Link to short overview
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html
My point in reference to pollutants, hazardous or otherwise, is location. Isn't this plant awfully close to what is purported to be a tourist destination? The only other urban plant just settled a lawsuit with locals due to the stench (Now for myself, I'll take anything over the Cheerio's)
As for the "ifs" and "buts" of new technologies...if you could turn dog waste into energy cheaply...big oil and the car makers would still cockblock it. Though I do see the Department of Energy has set 2030 for a goal of using ethanol as 30% of the nations fuel source. I think that's also when they said the first man will walk on Mars and the Missile Shield will be in place.
Long story short...the question should have been asked by the reporter.
and speaking of big agribusinesses, why would conagra turn this over so cheaply?
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/article.jsp?article_id=2097
ummmm...thanks for the info L?
syracuse and buffalo are still worse off than us. We get more money spent on us than them already. And im pretty sure Buffalo has more private investment than the other cities since we have more businesses. Because of this, they depend on the state to chip in even more than us. thats all.
i do in fact have a backbone lol. and i love buffalo to death-thats why i run a blog about it, thats why i turned down scholarships to move back from DC to go to UB. thats why i wont quit this city.
and i think i speak for everyone else who reads buffalorising-please chill out on the comments. you are knowledgable with good points but you're so damn pissed at everyone and everything. we're commenting here because we care and we love buffalo-just like you. sometimes the anger reaches a point where reading the comments here makes people not want to even bother with the site.
Corn or switchgrass in the silos--doesn't matter to me. Imagine: using a grain elevator to store grain!! If this keeps up, it might occur to someone that Central Terminal would make a great train station!
L, you've succumbed to wishful thinking about Changing World Technologies and depolymerization. The premise of depolymerization is that there will always be plentiful cheap oil creating plentiful industrial waste products to be converted in these plants. But when the oil flow is reduced, there will be a worldwide reduction in industrial production and there go the inputs needed to create this alternative energy. Not a long term solution.
It's kind of like believing that now that we have Wegman's, we don't need farms anymore.
dcoffee....they have been experimenting with ultrasonics and enzymes from things like termites to break down the fiber (lignin) in order to make other forms of plant material like switchgrass profitable. We arent there yet but when we are....most existing ethanol plants will switch over.
Ok mark...I will try to chill out alittle. 1) By the way mark....who exactly is "US?" 2) Also concerning your comment about Buffalo having more business and thus more private investment....take a look at the rates for entrepreneurs, small business startups, corporate headquarters, venture funds....Rochester is ahead of Buffalo in all categories...and Rochester does a pretty good job of badmouthing (my own personal experience) Buffalo & Syracuse in an attempt to get companies to relocate to the Rochester Metropolitan area. Prior to this ethanol plant what was Buffalos big corporate expansion a Laundry Facility at the Curtiss Wright Airplane Factory on Grider (I read both the Buffalo and Rochester Business Journals) compare that to Harris Electronics doubling their manufacturing capability. 3) Take a look at the census figures and you will find that 3 of the 8 counties in WNYs region have their population added to Rochesters 10 county region. So I have to respectfully disagree on Rochester hemmorhaging more jobs and being in worse shape than Buffalo and Syracuse.
BIA Mod, yes industrial production may slow down but unless your planning on a massive die off in population people will still consume with means there will still be some level of production and people will still poop. As long as there are people there will be consumer and industrial waste of some form. Changing World Technologies is the last step in the evolution of Ethanol and Biodiesel allowing any form of carbon based material as in input while providing an output of fuel.
Heck...you could take all those plans for distributed power off the shelves and take downtown off the grid! It would serve Niagara Mohawk right for abandoning downtown for the suburbs. Therefore, BIA Mod I have to respectfully disagree with you.
The BNP should expand their targets to expand and attract local business as well as their definition of local industrial clusters (IE Buffalos knowledge base).
Our elected representatives like Clinton need to consider and educate themselves on just what industries and technologies and employers are in what NYS region before they go setting up a national center in Rochester when Buffalo and Syracuse have an equal if not greater precedent or Ms Clinton needs to establish national centers in each city with different focal points but her blatant attempt to ignore Buffalo and Syracuse for the deeper pockets of campaign contributions in Rochester is utterly reprehensible and offensive.
like uutt says: tesla motors.. this car doesn't rely on any oil whatsoever. Sure it's not a $10,000 auto, but with Buffalo's reducing population - we need to consider downsizing. not making up some grand illusion that we will be the powerhouse city of the future.
downplay that every individual needs an automobile.
progress in the area of public transport. (allow busses to the mall. expand the subway. put busses into these suburban factories and businesses.) get people away from the money pit of owning an automobile. create exciting future-tech jobs and not just a progression of what there is already.
not only make the intelligent youth of buffalo stay, but make the intelligent youth of other cities want to relocate to Buffalo. E85 will be a flash in the pan when the global economy is running on electric, hydrogen cell, and solar vehicles.. not to mention that these vehicles will more than likely be public transport. Let's get back to the idea that owning an automobile is a commodity than few can really afford. Tell Higgins and Slaughter to get behind tearing down the skyway. Like Italy, Let's ban driving cars for a week and demand everyone ride a scooter. There's so many smart alternatives than to developing an E85 plant. Buffalo needs to get a bigger picture of whats going on. Drop lobbyist connections and just go for what the future demands. I think this is all I can manage for now. I need to get some sleep.
Trains and scooters.
Like the old joke goes, the pilot announced:
"Thank you for flying with us. We have landed in Buffalo NY. Please set your watches back 40 years."
Even better: let's buy a bunch of mules and use them to pull barges on the canal and really get some great modern transportation around here!
Only 65 jobs???...Well, I guess any new job is better than none.
This isn't simply about jobs. It's about revenue for the city and a step towards future development.
For all of you so critical of ethanol production, what makes you think we're going to switch energy standards to electric or hydrogen fueled vehicles. We've had the technology for decades. It hasn't been utilized for reasons of profit. Until it is economical for the corporate giants to move towards better energy standards, it isn't going to happen. Not in the United States, at least.
Brazil has switched to ethanol completely and is being applauded by the international community. Much of Europe and East Asia rely heavily on rail. Perhaps Sal the Mule hasn't been to Tokyo or Seoul. The United States and its hunger for automobiles and oil is anything but progressive. Ethanol is a step in the right direction as such massive change doesn't happen overnight.
So, why don't you all reserve your judgment and be happy that such a great asset is coming to the area.
Reserving judgement leads to one being a "little pregnant" does it not?
...and once again..I don't care if the technology works a scratch. As a Buffalo writer once put it.."Let's be careful out there..."
Mel: "what makes you think we're going to switch energy standards to electric or hydrogen fueled vehicles. We've had the technology for decades. It hasn't been utilized for reasons of profit."
Close but not quite. Instead of saying "profit", that should say something like "economic feasability". Even countries with nationalized energy sectors (where profit is a non-issue) have not switched in any real way to electric or hydrogen vehicles. Despite conspiracy theories, the technology you say has existed for decades to make this feasible on a large scale simply does not yet exist. And when it does it will likely be the result of profit-driven companies being the ones to develop the technology - profit is not the enemy here. But regardless, China, Cuba, or North Korea are welcome to beat us to the punch if they want... ok let's see those cars.... (...tapping foot...)
About a major switch to Ethanol, I'm open minded about it but another big question is whether we'd want to re-purpose enough farm land away from growing grain for food, or to convert currently unused land into huge new grain farms. If it was such a panacea a lot more nations besides Brazil would've done it by now as well. Hey if it goes great for them then others will follow their example; time will tell. It's nice to wish for an easy answer, but here's some real disadvantages as others have pointed out.
About train vs. car travel, well of course in tremenously dense population centers like Tokyo and Seoul, or even the NYC-Washington corrodor here, there's so many people traveling that a train can make a lot of sense (can take so long to drive to airports, board planes, etc. that short flights not worth it) and so enough trains can run to make schedules convenient. But to compare these to Buffalo is ridiculous. People still have the option to take a train instead of drive for trips to/from Buffalo. How many do? Not quite enough to justify re-opening Central Terminal as a train station, is it? Gee, maybe that's why it closed, beautiful as it is. It was built around 1930 when Buffalo was a top-20 (or so) population city and growing, and before air travel was affordable to the average person. As you may have noticed, those things have changed in the past 76 years.
First of all, WTF? How the hell does an article about an ethanol plant turn into a discussion about trains and public transportation? I digress.
Anyways, I think this is a great development for Buffalo. It will provide some jobs, but most importantly infuse life to any area of the city that has been languishing for decades. What a great way to take advantage of Buffalo’s plethora of grain elevators. I agree homework should be done on cleanliness, etc of ethanol plants. (I would hope that goes without saying given past industrial sins in Buffalo).
Beyond that this should be winner for Buffalo. Ethanol demand is growing, and there will be solid/steady demand for it for the foreseeable future. I guess the negativity directed towards this idea is just typical “negative Buffalo talk.” No doubt there is a relatively low ceiling for the demand of ethanol, but this project is relatively small in scale. I don’t think this project’s success is dependent on ethanol becoming the dominant fuel in the US. Rather this project will help to fill a market niche. Simple as that.
Let’s not make this out to be more than the nice modest (for most areas anyway) project it is meant to be.
I second Apollo's thought.
This is a nice little project that is an incremental step toward saving historic resources, re-engergizing Buffalo maritime uses, creating jobs, and reducing dependence on fossil fuels. Are there legitimate questions about corn-based ethonol? Yes. Would more jobs be nice? Yes. Is this project a foot in the door that may lead to other forms of enthonol production and more jobs? Quite probably.
Would it better if they were creating 10,000 new jobs each paying $75,000 a year in a plant that manufactured engines made of recycled glass that would run cars for 100 miles on a teaspoon of tap water? Sure, that would be great.
For those of you who don't know, Rick Smith has been very active for years in getting new life and use on the Buffalo River (Riverfest, etc., etc.). He's not about to suddenly set up some haz-mat plant and pump toxic waste into the River.
People really need to lighten up a bit and not just look for the silver lining in the clouds, but realize that the sun may actually be shining.
Notice, I did not derail the topic to transportation LOL
I think this is a wonderful opportunity to reuse our waterfront silos and it could lead to more re-use another company could very easily copy the idea and setup another plant for Biodiesel or depolymerization (as I posted about changingworldtechnologies)
Also with the return of lake freighters to the Port of Buffalo this is going to make it more feasible for a company like Barilla Pasta to have come to Buffalo. Its also going to help our intermodal freight and transhipment business.....you guys know that the Seneca Rail Yards just south of this location is being rebuilt by CSX as the auxilliary Port of NY/NJ. Therefore, the return of lake freighters has the potential to bring even more lake shipping and business to Buffalo and that means new industries and new jobs.
My biggest concern and gripe is that we need to leverage the technology in new local businesses. We should NOT look at it as 65 $35k jobs.
We SHOULD BE looking at it as an opportunity to:
-expand bio-informatics into enzyme research for the ethanol and biodiesel market (which is growing fast)
-ultrasonics which is another fast growing segment of the ethanol industry
-expanding our local energy and distribution businesses
-bringing a center for excellence in Material Science and having a segment of the Alternative Energy COE located in Buffalo
Leveraging existing businesses and existing technologies to expand and grow into the future.....thats my hope...and my gripe is that too often we DONT DO IT! As evidenced by previous statements about Clinton and BNP.
This is a good opportunity...cant we take the see and replant it and replant it....
Pete: About using farmland for ethanol crops instead of food crops. That is where Switchgrass comes in. it grows on barren soil that cannot sustain crops like corn, or grain. It used to cover the Midwest before it was cleared for farmland. Now that nutrients have been drained from the soil Switchgrass is one of the few crops that can grow there.
"Some Alabama farmers joke that there's no soil in Alabama to farm—two centuries of King Cotton and steady erosion haven't left much behind. Yet Bransby, a forage scientist at Auburn University, has found a crop that thrives there: Among the 19 research sites in the Eastern and Central United States raising switchgrass for the BFDP studies, Bransby's site holds the one-year record at 15 tons per acre."
From the DOE Office of Transportation
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html
"L: Notice, I did not derail the topic to transportation LOL"
Oh, were we talking about E85 the energy drink? Maybe I got all of that confused.
How can this be "derailed" into a topic about "transportation"?
The point I'm trying to make is that weighing what advantages this, as of yet unbuilt, plant will offer aren't great enough for me to get behind the idea/concept.
65 jobs is hardly "infusing life" into downtown Buffalo.
Nor is reusing the grain silos going to bring in maritime commerce.
Where has this worked?
Brazil doesn't use switchgrass or corn to make their ethonol (which is E100 now), they use sugar cane.. and the sugar cane yeilds more sugar than corn. Or rather - there's more bang for the buck.
Not to mention, why bring ourselves up-to-par with Brazil? We should be a world leader in future technology, not runner-up.
There're options such as the TelsaMotors car, Biodiesel cars, and the work going into developing better running electric cars. Why are these not worthy proponents for a downtown facility?
Why must the waterfront go to industry? Didn't we try this before and end up with what we have now?
I read in the comments that it's not "profitable" or "economically feasable" to push for EVs and biodiesels, but ethonol production is? This isn't going to help little upstate family farms. The corn will, probably, be shipped in from midwest argibusinesses that long ago cut out the family farmers. Not to mention E85 is still 15% petrol. And lots of oil is gobbled up along the production front as well.
I think it def. needs greater discussion and a long term plan to be made available to the public. Not just a spot on the Sunday paper and a reference point on BRO.
For me to even be remotely cautious doesn't make me a hater of Buffalo, so please stop steering the few people asking these questions into that. I live downtown and love this city. I'm just sick of all the unplanned/overplanned actions it's made.
One more and I'm stopping
http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.17809/article_detail.asp
L - ithium u may need a dose or two
l- I don't know where your info came from but NYS has only 5 centers of excelence. And the Infotonics center is in Canandagua (not Rochester) .These 5 centers are in Buffalo, Canandagua, syracuse, albany ad long island.
oh , and just in case you forgot, the buffalo area has the SUNY flagshp campus. Does that count foe anything as you balance the scales !!!!
l - and by the way , The national Center for Earhquake enginering is at Suny at buffalo - not in southern california.. so then why would you think it stange for alternative fuels ito be in Rochester...
oh my my my, you guys just dont read the previous posts do you.
Brazil uses sugar and gets more energy converted but even they discard the stalks because the fiber is useless in Ethanol.
All this talk about switchgrass.....is called Cellulosic Ethanol and it needs techology like ultrasonics or bioengineered enzymes can break down the fiber into digestable carbs....for fermentation...which is STILL A FEW YEARS AWAY..switchgrass is nice to talk about but its not a raw material YET! When the technology arrives then ethanol plants will convert the cellosic ethanol.
And in addition to Cellulosic Ethanol is depolymerization which allowed any carbon based waste from our garbage, our municipal sewar waste to industrial waste....and yields an end product of energy.
For those people talking about electric cars - Buffalo hasnt made electric cars since 1910 and hasnt made a full automobile since the Pierce Arrow so your kinda reaching into the realm of impossibility for Buffalo Niagara.
However, think creatively for a minute. Suppose we embraced the concept of distributed energy in downtown but used Ethanol or Biodiesel to take all of downtown off the grid? Youd get the density downtown just from people and companies wanting cheaper utilities!
fargo please read my previous posts about alternative energy in Buffalo Niagara and my previous post that the COE for Environment and energy is in Syracuse. If Clinton wants a national center in Rochester then there is something wrong with her.
Mongo-honey...if you have the time to think other people need lithium then you may need something yourself....idiot!
PS and who says that the other silos couldnt bring a biodiesel plant to Buffalo? Reference the New Scientist Article....Biodiesel is even easier than Ethanol.
http://www.newscientisttech.com/channel/tech/dn9519.html
Again, this is great news for our waterfront if we can leverage this growing industry into local R&D and local companies.
is this l's mommy speaking now or is this L -strang how the structure of paragraps change from day to day. And try to impress someone else with the verbose cut and paste crap. .R U Locked in your room constantly clicking on each post so you can see if you can respond? how freaky is that. The Manic depressive reference must have hit a nerve somewhere?..
Dave, I'm not getting your point above. Who are you saying should be the all-knowing judge of what's "worthy"? The two Ethanol guys are private citizens puting their own money at risk. Or at least talking and thinking about it. I won't be surprised if we never hear about it again but who knows. From Bflo News article, there's zero tax money involved. Their plan is to buy vacant land and abandoned elevators then try doing their thing on it. A long shot, but I wish them the best.
If anyone else in Buffalo wants to do any of the other ideas you and L mentioned, I hope they go for it too. As I see it, Ethanol has pros and cons, is not morally superior to pertroleum, but there might well be a market for it and if it's gonna be made somewhere why not here? I don't want to see any tax money handouts for this, however, so it's great that they're not asking for any.
For EVs I read recently the country furthest along is Iceland and they're running into big problems with hydrogen cell fueling station issues. A lot of R&D still needed, but it's being worked in many places.
L's idea for switching downtown to use a grid fueled only on Ethanol/Biodeisel just reminded me of the Simpsons monorail episode. It sounds like more of a Shelbyville idea - we wouldn't be interested.
::Starbuck-
Dave, I'm not getting your point above. Who are you saying should be the all-knowing judge of what's "worthy"? The two Ethanol guys are private citizens puting their own money at risk. Or at least talking and thinking about it. I won't be surprised if we never hear about it again but who knows. From Bflo News article, there's zero tax money involved. Their plan is to buy vacant land and abandoned elevators then try doing their thing on it. A long shot, but I wish them the best.::
I'm not saying there should be someone in charge giving green or red flags to everything. It's more or less me saying in this open forum that their endevour seems short sited. To give a Buffalo-esque response - I wanted them to pass and they ran it. Monday quarterbacking, sure.
It will be a shame if it fails. I've seen more information out there to suggest that E85 may be just a temporary fad, than some worthwhile pursuit. Something lobbyists and politicians will be pushing for, but for the wrong reasons.
I don't recall how much they're spending to start this project, but I would rather see an alternative I've mentioned previously.
As for the EVs, I've followed it somewhat, and I've heard there is work to do in regards to charging stations, but in the meantime they've prolonged battery life/milage. Last mention I remember was about 200 miles on a full charge. That seems to be plenty to get around Buffalo, and maybe even around Rochester and back. When returning home, these batteries charge in or around 8 hours.
A facility to r&d this would be great here, considering our climate. A big threat to an EVs battery life is the cold - and we have plenty of that (but maybe not as much as Iceland).
I'm not going to be throwing bananas at any cranes or backhoes if and when the time comes. I'm just trying to spread a little influence.
As far as EV's....the hybrid is here and it was the correct bet for the future....the next stage in hybrids will be plug-ins which allow you to run on electric all the time and only use the motor after you have used up your charge....which is great for ethanol and biodiesel engines.
and hey stargbuck...I was just brainstorming. Though I wouldnt be suprised if someone came up with a way to use ethanol or biodiesel as a cheaper replacement for natural gas or home heating oil...considering their run up in prices...and if that happens then applying it to a multi-occupant residential or commercial structure isnt so far fetched.
I would just like to see us brainstorm and leverage some of the hometown knowledge base, hometown technology and entrepreneurship to help our economy. Yah know what.....if a Buffalonian can spend his money at a Buffalo Company instead of sending our hard earned dollars out of state or out of the country..well...that can only help.
oh and fargo, check out this site...it will give you a better idea of the Centers for Excellence and other designations:
http://www.nystar.state.ny.us/Assets/photos/rescenlarge.jpg
http://www.nystar.state.ny.us/gennysis.htm
Buffalo has no Gen*NY*sis Centers!
Buffalo has no Advanced Research Centers!
and according to the site...Syracuse's COE in Environment and Energy has nothing to do with energy production or alternative energy which means that pound for pound Buffalo deserves a national center for alternative energy and distribution more than Rochester (my opinion)
Clinton stinks in her pandering to Rochester for a national center when Buffalo has more companies involved in a more diverse spetrum of alternative and clean energy.
Hey do these guys ever read BR who are building the ethanol plant. I wonder if they might build another in biodiesel and/or use their influence to put an R&D center in our area to keep their profitable business at the leading edge of technology.
great opportunity, great aritcle and responses.
L.. It amazes me that there is someone else in Buffalo that reads New Scientist!! i thought I was all alone!
Ethanol, long term solution, not really, better than supporting foreign fuel, jobs and wars. Hands down yes. Biodeisel, yes plaese!
l - isuggest ou reread my posts. you seem to ignore anything which contradicts you. Like for instance the center for phtonics is in Canandagua - not Rochester. You were also the one who suggested Syracuse deserved the alternative fuels center more than rochester becuse it hosted a similar NYS Center, Then after you went to the sites you referenced and did some quick on-line research you changed your story because you found out that what was located in Syracuse had nothing to do with alternative fuels. I already knew that. You should reread you own posts instead of telling everyone else to reread your posts.
I think people may be narrowing their focus too much on the use of ethanol as an alternative fuel. Ethanol has a wide range of uses and if not another drop of it was used for fuel, it would still have a huge market. This project seems like it could be a win for the city. A small win maybe, but a win nonetheless.
why are we concerned with re-purposing land from food production to energy production?
nearly all grain farmers in this country are paid by the government to produce LESS!
very few grain farms are anywhere near capacity. frequently farmers are paid not to farm their land in efforts to stabilize crop prices.
at our current production level, we are both the largest agricultural producer, and largest agricultural exporter, in the world. all that at only a fraction of our production capacity. so where does this concern about use of farm land come from?
Interesting article and great photos!
L I'd like you to add the following word to your vocabulary. Plagiarism - to present as one's own the ideas or words of another.
Combine that with your vitriol against Clinton and you come off as Ann Coulters clone. Clinton--- the ex first lady who would come to Buffalo when no-one else gave a damn about the city.
Did anyone read the First Business Buffalo today? It had an article about Flex Fuel Engines of which Buffalo is a world leader because of our GM Engine Plant another reason we should have that center in Buffalo.
http://buffalo.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2006/07/31/story2.html?page=4&b=1154318400^1321641
"Much American focus has been on biodiesel - a clean-burning, alternative fuel produced from such domestic resources as soybean oil or other fats and vegetable oil. Biodiesel contains no petroleum but can be mixed at any level with petroleum diesel to create a biodiesel blend, according to the National Biodiesel Board.
While biodiesel can be used by itself or blended with regular diesel fuel, a common mixture is 20 percent biodiesel and 80 percent petroleum diesel."
I just thought that I would remind everyone that we still have plenty of empty silos for a Biodiesel plant to compliment our ethanol plant. More jobs, more taxes and more technology home made in Buffalo.
People forget how much of our groundwater was poisoned because of MBTE as a fuel additive. Replacing MBTE with Ethanol is a better choice.
and 10-15% ethanol blended gasoline....20% biodiesel blend...hey guys thats money kept in our country instead of being sent overseas. Thats something a patriotic american should support.
stoke...where did I plagiarise? Ive provided references...certainly more references than many other posters....unless your one of those mean nazi-lesbian feminists that support Clinton for President because she has a boobs (was going to be more vulgar) instead of supporting her for the 200,000 jobs she was going to bring...whoops where are those jobs! Let me see what happened to those jobs! Maybe their in Rochester with her political donations and her national center for alternative energy? Nope because Clinton is a media whore that hasnt focussed on her constituents as she promised...she has been 100% about national issues for her own national reputation.....and the pork that was supposed to create those 200,000 jobs....check her campaign re-election warchest. She has been working for herself nor her constituents.
whoops maybe you got no boobs yourself you two bit jackass.Or R u just a fat girl on prozac. Whoops. Swallow another pill. .Crackpot fool.
whoops maybe you got no boobs yourself you two bit jackass.Or R u just a fat girl on prozac. Whoops. Swallow another pill. .Crackpot fool.
I see the conversation has turned constructive : )
no Ben McD its still constructive just not going to let people forget the millions of dollars in Clintons warchest...that she could have redirected to her constituents honoring her promise for 200,000 jobs, especially when Buffalo needs and deserves that national center for alternative energy. Nuff said.
I think this project is great and I really hope that another project follows on with soybeans in the other silos for Biodiesel!
Once again L ignores history in the pursuit of rhetorical excess. Buffalo had a few automobile manufacturers that outlived the Pierce-Arrow company, including a short-lived firm which produced a funky sportscar called the Playboy in the 1940s. We also made trucks and fire engines here after Pierce-Arrow folded.
L - your such a chode
Mr Jones, thanks for the history lesson it was appreciated as I really love to learn more and more about my hometown but if your in the camp that Buffalo should skip hybrids and flex fuel cars (ethanol and biodiesel) and skip right to manufacturing electric vehicles. I can only say...if you have the money to start an autoplant that makes better cars than the current automakers...then I wish you and your fellow investors good luck.
Me...Im going to stick with trying to leverage Buffalo's existing industries, its existing knowledge base and its natural geographical advantages to improve our local economy so Buffalo can have a better future.
L, im with you on the Hillary thing...She is a bombastic cah mongering bitch...no wonder Billy Boy cheated on her lesbian ass. She is a liar. Period. God help us if she were ever President, kiss our freedoms goodbye...our president after her would be Osama Yo Mama Shek Mahmoud Von Tootsie. We're screwed with her in any power position
Wow, it took me a while to read all of this but wow. To some people here I dont think you get the difference between brainstorming and facts. And I have to give it to you L, whether or not you are looking up "quick info" on the interenet or actually reading facts on this subject, the fact that your actually taking the time to do so i salute you. Someone commented earlier on not trying to make Buffalo this growing, booming city, cause that is IMO, far from being. But to downsize and focus on "fixing" what we have first before adding to this city that already has enought unused potential. Recycle Buffalo, we dont want a bigger city, at least not yet. We just want to see what is already here, made better. Yes, this ethenol plant is only going to create 50 something jobs, but with growth in traffic in and out of Buffalo, it will create more jobs elsewhere. Did I hear that one of the birproducts from creating ethenol is clean water? How accurate is this? If this were %100 true and tested, would this not be a turning point for our Greak Lake?
I hope they are successful. As long as it doesn't spew pollution or blow-up the nearest neighborhood, why be against it? Sure beats empty grain silos!
NOT in my neighborhood! If they do what Bush and his croonies want this plant will be listed under alochol and allowed to spew 1 1/2 times more toxins into the air. It also has side effects!
It causes low birth weight, premature births, malformation of babies, kids with asthma and the elderly with heart problems will cause even more problems!
As a adult that was literaly raised on top of a chemical dump, (Hickorywoods Development) I have first hand experiece and DO NOT want it in my neighborhood!
So all the people who live in the First Ward of Buffalo be prepared to move if your kids have asthma or if your elderly parents have heart conditions or you can just let them die!
in regards to methanol, a byproduct of ethanol prodcution. Methanol is a critical catalyst in the creation of biodiesel, which can run in a standard diesel engine with no mods. While US passenger cars do not use much diesel, semis, bus fleets, boats and farm equipment do.
E85 is being used in sweden in SAAB cars and they are unveiling E(100) cars as we speak. 100% ethanol!
The real clincher would be B100 (biodiesel) or E100 hybrid cars. 60mpg on no petroleum...
Im from Rochester (now in Philly) and I think that the entire westen NY region Syracuse through Buffalo, should be strong inmaking biofuels. The infrastructure, farms and transportation are all there.
Please look at the positive side of this, its great news.
L should just stick to a very detailed analysis of the ethanol industry and dump the political bs (this from someone who can't stand Hillary either). Let's be constructive and boost this region with balanced discussion, analysis and COMPROMISE -- something everyone seems to have forgotten.
it,s time to get on the ball stop all of this talking in lets get the water way's rolling just about everyone in buffalo know's this is buffalo's past and future lets start building this city back up with jobs,new housing, etc. RiverWrightEnergy LLC.this don't sound bad.
Yes Finally. You know as ehtanol production rises the failing auto makers will start to move more into a ethanol based system raising the worth of corn and wheat and cleaning the air our parents generation left us with. Not to mention you can't grow food in sand. As we move to make our own fuel with hard working farmers our oil money stays here in the States.The time of excess and waste is almost over! Congrats to Buffalo- move forward
I think there are some good Synergies betweeen promoting Ethanol in the WNY region and recognizing the industry push in the IndyCar Series (Indy 500), who races right in CNY at Watkins Glen International. Ethanol is the series official fuel with all cars running Ethanol in 2007.