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Joel Giambra Promises a Lawsuit to Halt ECC Science Building In Amherst

Former county executive Joel Giambra promised a lawsuit at yesterday’s Common Council hearing on Erie Community College’s plans to expand its North Campus in Amherst. “There will be a lawsuit,” said Giambra. “A group of attorneys have been assembled. They’re looking at the state statute on sprawl.” At issue is the application of New York State Smart Growth Public Infrastructure Policy Act, which requires state infrastructure agencies such as SUNY to make investments that are consistent, to the extent practicable, with defined smart growth criteria.

Giambra was one of about 40 people to file into the Common Council chambers to protest ECC’s expansion plans. “I was looking forward to Mark Poloncarz undoing a lot of the bad decisions that were done during the Collins administration,” said Buffalo resident Ed Cardoni. “I thought that this would be one of them, and I’m very disappointed that the decision has been made, hopefully it can be stopped, to do this development at the North Campus. It just doesn’t make any sense.”

Young Citizens for ECC, an advocacy group for Erie Community College, has been vocal for two years about the proposed expansion, which they say is an opportunity to grow ECC’s City Campus and link students to job and internship opportunities of the Buffalo Niagara Medical Campus.

In recent weeks the group rattled off a slew of stats that they say support expanding the City Campus, many of which come directly from an ECC study released by the Poloncarz administration:

47% of ECC’s students live in the City of Buffalo, yet the City Campus, due to its limited programs, serves only 25% of ECC’s students.

More students who live in the City of Buffalo commute to the North Campus (2,994 students) than attend the City Campus (2,465 students).

52% of North Campus students live in the City of Buffalo, while only 9% of North Campus students are from Amherst.

Bernice Radle, co-chair of Young Citizens for ECC, set down her book of statistics on Tuesday to speak more directly to her own personal story. “I grew up in extreme poverty,” said Radle. “My only option was a good education.” In a city where 30% of households do not have access to a car and depend on public transit, Radle said that Erie Community College must focus on the needs of low- and moderate-income people who face barriers to obtaining a college education. “City of Buffalo residents who are poor should not have hurdles,” said Radle. “This should be the easiest thing for them. College should be a no-brainer. It should not be an uphill battle for them to go and get a two-year degree.”

The Council urged County Executive Poloncarz to reconsider his endorsement of the North Campus proposal and to take a second look at a County-owned parking lot at North Division and Oak streets that was acquired for City Campus expansion back in 2002. “We have by and large shut down access to a future, to a good future, for many students,” said Ellicott District Councilmember Darius Pridgen. “It is an asinine decision.”

“We also want to hold Mark Poloncarz accountable,” said Niagara District Councilmember David Rivera. “On this particular issue, I think he’s failing, he’s failing the citizens of the City of Buffalo.”

Radle urged Buffalo residents to contact County Executive Mark C. Poloncarz (countyexecutive@erie.gov) to express their views on ECC’s expansion.

Written by Mike Puma

Mike Puma

Writing for Buffalo Rising since 2009 covering development news, historic preservation, and Buffalo history. Works professionally in historic preservation.

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  • jstraubinger

    Ahhhhh, another round of mickeyharmon versus 95% of the Buffalo Rising posters

    • whateverr

      jstraubingerOn quick count, looks around 80% (roughly 12 of 15 posters) were agreeing with you in the previous ECC thread.  

      Other 3 were Mickey, solong, falling… and not sure how to tally what saltecks said in that one about NCCC/ECC merge – wasn’t clear what impact that would have on the set of campuses.
      Aside from that, I’m curious was pointing out that Mickey had a minority view among posters, whether it’s 5% or 20%, intended to compliment him in a ‘dissent is patriotic’ spirit like some bumper stickers used to say back in the mid 2000s? 
      …or to degrade his viewpoint for not being popular on here? 
      or to try discouraging him by pointing out that unpopularity?

      No big deal either way, but just wondering is all.

      • jstraubinger

        whateverr jstraubinger  I was the first one to post to this and given how much the other day’s thread seemed to be mickeyharmon vs almost everyone else, I anticipated another round of the same. My comment was not intended to encourage or discourage anyone from expressing their opinion. Perhaps with another cup of coffee, I might not have posted anything.

        • whateverr

          Thanks for clarifying.

      • MickeyHarper

        whateverr jstraubinger 
        Yes, let’s ridicule someone with a different perspective and different opinion. Let’s ignore a dissenting voice. Let’s tell him he’s not “popular”. He’s not like the rest of us. That’s Buffalo…Talking Proud !!

    • MickeyHarper

      jstraubinger 
      To which ECC campus does your Uncle Joel send his kids?

  • rlcambria

    With the major expansion of the BNMC downtown…why would ECC even entertain building this in Amherst? Someone has their hand in the cookie jar.

    • MickeyHarper

      rlcambria 
      It’s all about Joel working for developers who want to develop land at North.

  • jvgriffis

    So I’m kind of confused about why ECC is pushing so hard for that silly N campus nonsense. I hate to think “corruption” all the time, but really, what else is there that’d make them completely ignore the overwhelming opinion? Who’s asking for N campus expansion? Why the hell are there 3 campuses in one piddly county?!? Gah.

    • jstraubinger

      jvgriffis It certainly appears that ECC North and the new building have been a done deal since it was first announced several years ago. The consultants study report  and the cleverness by half of changing the building’s purpose from health sciences to STEM sure have “rubber stamp” written all over it. James Allen, the head of the Amherst IDA , and some other interested parties in Amherst and Clarence are very powerful in development circles and almost always get what they want. The other question you have to ask is “Why isn’t ECC interested in partnering in anyway with the BNMC”?

      • NotaYuppieHipster

        jstraubinger Specifically how do you want ECC to partner with BNMC?  Will BNMC guarantee hiring x number of ECC one year certificate and two year associate degree graduates by 2020, let’s say?  How many?  Look at all the different specific health science programs at ECC.  How many from each program will be hired by BNMC?  How many from each program are working there now?

        • EB_Blue

          NotaYuppieHipster jstraubinger Hundreds will. Others may use their training and internships to find jobs elsewhere. Even more will take general studies courses, history courses, English courses, and otherwise to advance to four-year programs and go on to become teachers, paralegals, project managers, or whatever. The point is that the City Campus is on the whole the most accessible, centrally located, and convenient location for the largest number of Erie County residents. The proximity to the BNMC is one of the benefits of growing the City Campus, the smallest of ECC’s three campuses. There are a hundred reasons to do so, and no justifiable reasons for growing the Amherst campus at its expense.

  • buffaloroam

    Here is what I just sent the Poloncarz,(whipped together while at work so may not be edited perfectly-but wanted to get something out) I encourage you to write one of your own.

    Dear Executive Poloncarz,
    As an expatriate of Buffalo and Erie County I wanted to
    express my disappointment with the decision to locate the new “STEMS” building
    at ECC North Campus instead of Downtown. As a resident of a Ithaca, a college
    town, I have seen firsthand the benefits that colleges and universities have on
    their host cities. It would be infinitely wiser to move most of ECC’s services
    to Downtown Buffalo.
    Buffalo and Erie County have a history of making wrongheaded
    decisions when it comes to urban planning and smart growth. A lot of these
    decisions are simultaneously based on racism and classism.  The purpose of
    a 2 year college is to provide an affordable education to those that need it
    most. Based on your own studies most of the students at the North Campus come
    from the city while only 9% come from Amherst. Wouldn’t it make sense to expand
    the school with most of the students live and where there is public
    transportation? It would make it easier for students of all of Erie County to
    get to classes if they were downtown.  Downtown is the center of the
    transportation network including the highways and public transport. 
    Offering these services in Amherst makes it much more difficult for the
    majority of students to access these services as Amherst is not in the center
    of the region nor does it have the public transportation or highway systems
    that Buffalo has.   
    Downtown Buffalo and the region in general is making changes
    and is getting some life back. People are investing in Downtown again. Why at
    this time would the county take its limited resources and invest in Amherst
    instead of downtown Buffalo. The people of Amherst are actually fighting against
    so much development in their town. What downtown Buffalo lacks that most other
    small cities have is an institution of higher learning.  
    It is really disappointing that in 2013 we are still arguing
    over city vs. suburb in this region. The city is the center of the region and
    the government should support it as such. Thanks for your time.

    • NotaYuppieHipster

      buffaloroam Are you really so bored working in Ithaca that you spend so much time posting about Buffalo?  Sorry but that doesn’t seem to speak well of Ithaca being all that invigorating.

    • MickeyHarper

      buffaloroam 
      Which community college is responsible for the bustling growth in Ithaca? TCCC is 20 miles away in a rural setting.  Cornell U and Ithaca College keep Ithaca on the map.
      ECC isnt UB and it never will be. Commuter college versus a large University. Completely different entities…completely different community impact.

      • EB_Blue

        MickeyHarper buffaloroam The laws of the universe operate differently at community colleges than they do at other SUNY institutions? Bringing as many as 16,000 students to downtown Buffalo will absolutely no effect? You can’t be taken seriously.

        • MickeyHarper

          EB_Blue MickeyHarper buffaloroam 
          You’ve never been on a community college campus; you don’t get the difference between community college students and students at 4 year colleges. Ther are VERY different.

  • Stan Da Man

    How about this – instead of renovating the Amherst campus, why doesn’t ECC sell the North campus (the land is worth a fortune) and use the profits to build a new campus downtown?
    No one wants that crappy campus in Williamsville.

    • Michael DiPasquale

      Stan Da Man 
      That was Joel Giambra’s idea many years ago.

      • MickeyHarper

        Michael DiPasquale Stan Da Man 
        Joel is paid by developers that want to develop land at ECC North. That’s what this is all about.

        • Michael DiPasquale

          MickeyHarper Michael DiPasquale Stan Da Man
          Care to tell us how you know this  before you make such a charge?
          You don’t seem to like Giambra. That’s a shame because he knows a lot about cities and urban development.

        • MickeyHarper

          Michael DiPasquale MickeyHarper Stan Da Man 
          Come on, really? If you live in Buffalo it is common knowledge. Where does Joel live now? Who gives him a paycheck? Which fundraisers does he attend? I don’t like that Joel wants to develop ECC North into more of an office park.

        • Michael DiPasquale

          MickeyHarper Michael DiPasquale Stan Da Man 
          Sorry, but you lose credibility when you deal in hearsay. 
          You want to make a point that will be taken seriously? Stick to the facts.

        • MickeyHarper

          Michael DiPasquale MickeyHarper Stan Da Man 
          It is a fact…Your ignorance doesn’t make a fact “hearsay”. Do your homework man!

        • Michael DiPasquale

          MickeyHarper Michael DiPasquale Stan Da Man 
          Tell us some facts please. I don’t do homework.

        • MickeyHarper

          Michael DiPasquale MickeyHarper Stan Da Man 
          If you don’t do homework, then everything is “hearsay”. Your ignorance doesn’t negate a fact.
          A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS DANGEROUS THING.

        • MickeyHarper

          Michael DiPasquale MickeyHarper Stan Da Man            
          Joel lives in Williamsville (Town of Amherst), NY since 2006. His consulting job office is located in Amherst, kids all went to private high schools in Kenmore, Amherst and Williamsville, daughter’s business is in East Amherst ($$) and before that in Kenmore.
          Seems HYPOCRITICAL, doesn’t it?  Say one thing, but then do the opposite.  Gee, what else could be his motivation? ($$$)  Wake up!

  • Northbuff

    Adequate student parking at city campus must be addressed. Building the new building in the city near the growing BNMC is a no brainer considering many medical industry related classes will be offered in the new building.
    Also can anyone name a city the size of Buffalo that has lost so many residents but still supports 3 separate community college campuses in one county?

    • Mike_Puma

      Northbuff Looks like there is plenty of opportunity to address the “parking issues” in the immediate area, see the link. Since 50% of downtown is parking (surface or ramps) it would be a nice opportunity to building a mixed use ramp with some ground floor retail
      http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1024/4725126630_a58e3ee448_b.jpg

  • Stan Da Man

    Would anyone be opposed to ECC building a unified, modern campus on the Outer Harbor?
    I’d rather have the football stadium, but putting ECC there would get the metro rail extended and bring thousands of kids downtown every day.

    • Michael DiPasquale

      Stan Da Man 
      Yes I object!!
      ECC should expand in the downtown core. That is the area of the city that already has the infrastructure to support more students. We already have mass transit, parking, and vacant land.
      Giambra is right. The state and the county should not be creating more sprawl.

  • Michael DiPasquale

    Joel Giambra and others are right on. And their idea to address the impact that ECC expansion has on sprawl makes perfect sense.

  • CPBarrett

    How about we avoid a lawsuit and simply schedule a meeting at the Buffalo Club for key members of the ECC Board of Directors and the WNY Regional Council and lock the door until they come to the agreement that downtown is a better fit? Anti-Sprawl projects (Smart Growth) are one of the three Regional Council areas of focus for which all state grants applications submitted from WNY via the CFA process must address.  If ECC wants any State funding for this building or programming to be held in it from these state agencies, the downtown location choice wins.

  • pampiniform

    So a lawsuit, I don’t see how this could end badly.  I imagine a couple of years from now after it bounces around the courts, if we’re lucky, we might actually wind up with a healthcare program somewhere.  
    Frankly, I don’t have any plans on attending the place and couldn’t care less where they actually put the campus.  It would probably be nice if they put it downtown.  I do have a few thoughts though:

     I have worked down at the medical campus.  The focus there is on high level medical research and graduate medical education.  That’s where the money is.   ECC trains people to do nursing and basic medical work.  There really isn’t any reason that an ECC medical program would benefit from that proximity.
    Did anyone actually analyze where the people who would attend ECC for medical programs are from in the county?   What if city residents make up a small percentage of those particular programs? Would that make a difference?

    I am not sure that I get the whole sprawl thing.  If I’m not mistaken, isn’t ECC north campus already there?

    • Michael DiPasquale

      pampiniform
      You should care. If the center city suffers the whole region suffers.
      Public money should go towards projects that are in the public’s best interest.
      Subsidizing sprawl is not in the public’s best interest.

    • buffaloroam

      pampiniform  
      Think your on the wrong website if you don’t understand the whole sprawl thing.

      • whateverr

        buffaloroam
        roam>”your on the wrong website”
        That’s an interesting remark.  Are you implying that there’s an ideological litmus test to comment on here?  Maybe in addition to the ‘Like’ button, there should be one for you to vote on who you feel should go away to some other website?

      • pampiniform

        buffaloroam From what I see of it here on this site, the term sprawl seems to be assigned to whatever you don’t happen to like.  I don’t get how you can dismiss building a building on an existing campus in an already built up area is sprawl.

    • EB_Blue

      pampiniform You’re uninformed. You think the 17,000 people who will work at the Medical Campus by 2017 are all doctorates? 50% of all healthcare workers in the United States are trained at community colleges.

      • MickeyHarper

        EB_Blue pampiniform 
        ECC’s graduation rate if 18%. Every 3 year cycle, 82% drop-out. If there are 17,000 jobs to fill, very few will come as a graduate from ECC.

      • NotaYuppieHipster

        EB_Blue pampiniform Again, how many workers at the Medical campus are currently one year certificate or two year associate degree graduates? How many do you project by 2017?  Give me number, not percentages based upon the entire population of the US. I can’t find any indication that anybody suggested all Medical campus workers  have doctorates.  If you want to prove your point, you have to come up with real numbers and realistic projections.

        • EB_Blue

          NotaYuppieHipster EB_Blue pampiniform Again, give me $75,000 and I’ll survey all the employers at BNMC, so that you a Buffalo Rising commenter can be satisfied that Buffalo is not all that different from the nation as a whole, and that we don’t have 17,000 doctorates from Yale working at the BNMC.

  • solonggone

    Here is an idea…
    Since people want to claim a county asset as ‘property’ of the City of Buffalo because of the % of students who attend the school…how about having the City of Buffalo fund the majority of Erie Counties cost for ECC?

    • Stan Da Man

      I’m guessing you’re white and live in the suburbs.
      Heaven forbid your county taxes don’t go towards something in your immediate neighborhood.

      • solonggone

        Stan Da Man The point I am trying to make is about the attitude of some city residents.  
        If they would come out and say – Hey, we don’t want to give or don’t have any money to put towards this this but it would really help us ALL out, that would be one thing.  That’s a common sense argument.  
        But that’s not what is being said.  What’s being said is THIS belongs to US and we’re going to SUE to have it and the opinions of people outside of the city don’t matter….but we don’t want to give or don’t have any money to put towards this this as well.  
        You seem to try and connect a white elitist tone to my comment but fail to see the elitist entitlement tone from everyone else.  
        Drop the ‘synergy’ argument with the medical campus.  Don’t use the enrollment % argument unless you want to talk about funding % as well.  Don’t let the people who want to rebuild the city on public works projects like this lead the voice.  
        If the argument was simply….Erie County would be better off if the Community College was located closest to the residents need it most…and in doing this the entire county will be better off…a lot of the opposition would go away.  
        The arrogance of Buffalo residents, common on BRO, is part of the reason why the County residents don’t give a damn as to what happens in the city.  When one of the most vocal leaders in this is a guy who lives in Chicago telling folks who live in the burbs just how wrong they are….you’re gonna have a hard time.  
        That’s my point.

        • EB_Blue

          solonggone Stan Da Man No, the Common Council is saying the parking lot should be to expand the City Campus (which people from all over the region attend), not for it to remain a parking lot at a purchase cost of $17,500 per space. If you paid attention, you’d notice also that the Common Council offered up for consideration an even larger City-owned parking lot at Ellicott and Clinton for ECC expansion. Get the facts.

        • le80

          solonggone Kindly explain why the synergy argument should be dropped.  Also how is the entire country not better off by putting the campus closest to the population that would use it? You’re just throwing out random banter w/o backing it up with any facts.

        • Michael DiPasquale

          solonggone Stan Da Man 
          The lawsuit would be based on anti sprawl legislation. Not on “this belongs to us”.

        • MickeyHarper

          EB_Blue solonggone Stan Da Man 
          If most students take the bus, why care about extra parking lots?

        • buffaloroam

          solonggone Stan Da Man  
          Yeah, nobody likes an elitist argument. That’s kinda funny of you to try and make a reverse elitist argument out of those of us who are saying that the Campus should be built downtown so that it is accessible to all. Pretty arrogant to wish for a Community College that made sense and for a downtown that worked and was the pride of the REGION and for poor and working class folks to be able to get an education. We are so f#%king elitist aren’t we. This doesn’t belong to Buffalo or Amherst it belongs to all of Erie County and if you looked at the three campus system you would see that it is redundant and costly and that it doesn’t serve the economic or academic needs of the county. It serves to line the pockets of a few developers.

        • Stan Da Man

          MickeyHarper EB_Blue solonggone Stan Da Man Exactly.

        • solonggone

          le80
          I think the County would be better off if more city residents were educated. 
          I also agree that it’s easier for most city residents to access the downtown campus.  
          All I am saying in addition to those facts is that ECC is a COUNTY Community College.  It’s not a CITY COLLEGE.  
          What I am hearing is Pro-Buffalo folks want a COUNTY asset to be placed in the City to benefit less than half of the student body.  
          What I am hearing is people wanting the residents of the County to pay for the development of the city in a tone that has ZERO regard for the county resident.  Even though 70% of the County lives OUTSIDE of the City.  
          That’s pretty damn arrogant if you ask me.  Like I said, I think it would be much different if the tone was different.  
          As for the synergy argument, can you cite anything that shows the Medical Campus is going to expand or even include a program for ECC students?  Just what is the ‘synergy’ that people keep talking about?  Just because both are related to ‘medical’ does not mean they are going to work together.

        • buffaloroam

          solonggone le80

        • buffaloroam

          solonggone le80
          So long, if anyone has an elitist argument it is you. You basically said in your passage here 
          “What I am hearing is people wanting the residents of the County to pay
          for the development of the city in a tone that has ZERO regard for the
          county resident.  Even though 70% of the County lives OUTSIDE of the
          City. 
          that the city of buffalo residents are not part of the county.  Actually city of buffalo residents are part of the county just in case you didn’t know that. Just for the record the city is the largest entity within the county with more than twice the population of the second most populated entity.  just so you know  Solong buffalo is actually part of the county… not sure from your post that you knew that. 
          Secondly, your saying that ECC is a county community college and not a city community college. Correct?  So tell me how it benefits all the residents of West Seneca, Hamburg, Orchard Park, Colden, Elma, East Aurora to have to travel to Amherst to get to class instead of downtown???? Wouldn’t a new STEM center serve ALL of Erie County if it was centrally located?  I am just trying to use your argument here that ECC is for ALL of Erie county and not just one municipality.

        • buffaloroam

          solonggone le80  
          Solong, For your next post can you explain to me how all of erie county is served by making 85% of the county drive to the northern section of the county to take some junior college classes??? I would like to hear your rational for that.

        • solonggone

          @Michael DiPasquale @Stan Da Man 
          The sprawl argument is comical to me.  
          It is the purpose of this article to augment the state’s environmental policy by declaring a fiscally prudent state policy of maximizing the social, economic and environmental benefits from public infrastructure development through minimizing unnecessary costs of sprawl development including environmental degradation, disinvestment in urban and suburban communities and loss of open space induced by sprawl facilitated by the funding or development of new or expanded transportation, sewer and waste water treatment, water, education, housing and other publicly supported infrastructure inconsistent with smart growth  public infrastructure criteria.
          To suggest this is sprawl is to suggest that Amherst is still a tiny of town of 60,000 residents.  By all accounts Amherst is a growing town in population with it’s own economy and services.  

          The reason I used 60,000 residents is that was about the population when ECC opened the North Campus in 1960.  The population is now double that.  So just what is Amherst going to look like in 2050?

        • solonggone

          buffaloroam le80
          So using your logic, since Buffalo is the largest entity in the County it should get preferential treatment?
          The reason I ask is how does your argument project out over 50 years?  What will you say when the population of Amherst is equal to or greater than Buffalo?  Because it’s on track to be that.

        • MickeyHarper

          buffaloroam solonggone le80 
          ECC students typically have many academic deficiencies and are required to complete developmental coursework before matriculating into a program. The point is…they linger.  Of those 18% who do graduate, their time-to-completion in much longer.  Most will be stuck in basic/general education classes for a while.

        • buffaloroam

          solonggone buffaloroam le80  
          That’s a completely stupid argument. And that wasn’t my argument. Go back and re-read my post.

        • solonggone

          buffaloroam le80 
          The person who picks up the check usually has a big say as to where you eat.

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          buffaloroam solonggone Stan Da Man There aren’t any poor or working class folks in Cheektowaga or Amherst for that matter?  Man, you really need to get out more often.

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          buffaloroam Folks from Orchard Park, Hamburg and the rest of the southern tier benefit by the presence of ECC’s south campus?.Do you want to eliminate the South Campus?  North campus, too? What about the green space afforded to the people of Amherst and Williamsville so their kids have a chance to play soccer and the like?  Get rid of that for more corporate development shoeboxes and more traffic?

        • Stan Da Man

          NotaYuppieHipster buffaloroam “What about the soccer fields for the Youth Soccer Leagues”
          HAHAHAHAHAHHA
          First-world problems. Suburbanites thinking outside of their sheltered existence is always too much to ask.

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          Stan Da Man  Seems you don’t like kids. Or at least kids who don’t live in the city.   That’s a shame.  I live in the city.  I am working class.  Please stop being so hateful and stop making unwarranted assumptions.

        • Stan Da Man

          NotaYuppieHipster Stan Da Man Why would anyone in the city care about the soccer field adjacent to ECC North. Maybe Amherst should have thought about greenspace before they ruined a majority of their town with ugly homes and strip malls.

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          Stan Da Man So then you have no problem if people in the suburbs don’t care about and don’t want their money to be spent on development in the city? You seem to conveniently forget that Amherst pays a lot of taxes for development and all sorts of cultural activities in the city.  That’s a good thing, I think. It’s not good that you seem too enraptured by a hatred of all things suburban.

        • Stan Da Man

          NotaYuppieHipster Stan Da Man The rich have to pay taxes. Boo-hoo. Maybe if the conservatives I know didn’t give 10% of their salary to the zillion-dollar cult known as the Catholic Church, they could afford to pay their fair share and moan less about how blacks and poors are ruining America. If you live in the county, you pay county taxes – living in a particular part of the county doesn’t give you special entitlement as to where the money goes.

        • Michael DiPasquale

          solonggone 
          The fact that Amherst acts like it has “its own economy and services” is part of the problem. Amherst thrives at the expense of the city. 
          When people and jobs move to Amherst the city and entire region suffer. Does the city really need more abandoned buildings and retail strips in its older neighborhoods? No!
          That’s what the Smart Growth law tries to address: it’s time to favor existing, older parts of our counties.
          When one of the safest and most prosperous zip codes in the country sits next to one of the poorest, you know there is a problem.
          A region with such a stark socio-economic division cannot thrive. The city needs help, and the county needs to stop subsidizing the suburbs at the expense of the city.

        • Michael DiPasquale

          NotaYuppieHipster buffaloroam 
          You’re being ironic, right?

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          Stan Da Man You’re reducing your arguments to confronting a straw man of your own making.  I would love to see the rich have to pay a greater share of taxes. Seems you hate Catholics, too.  Ever notice how many Catholics there are in Erie County?  Ever consider how the Catholic Church sponsors all sorts of anti-poverty programs in the city through Catholic Charities?

        • Stan Da Man

          NotaYuppieHipster Stan Da Man I don’t hate Catholics, I hate the fact that religion breeds greed which breeds elitism which breeds racism..When there’s smoke there’s fire – usually anyone falling into one of the above categories also has the other shameful traits.

        • solonggone

          Stan Da Man NotaYuppieHipster 
          I really want to thank you Stan for taking the conversation the direction you did.

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          Stan Da Man If religion simply breeds greed, how could Catholic Charities even exist?

        • solonggone

          Michael DiPasquale
          Amherst thrives because it does what a municipality is supposed to do.  This whole ‘at the expense of Buffalo’ argument is bull shit.
          People abandoned the City because it can’t shake the stupid.  The whole entitlement tone you’re taking only reinforces the divide between the COB and surrounding towns.  
          You’re correct in saying the the gains in Amherst has come mostly from the city but that’s the fault of the city.  There are countless things that Buffalo can do to make itself a more desirable place to live yet it fails to do this.  All your asking is to get bailed out without correcting the cause.  
          Putting a new building on a Campus that has been around for over 50 years is not sprawl.  If they were talking about moving the campus to Clarence…then you would have something.  
          To your last point…
          I agree the city needs help.  But for you to say that the towns outside of the City should subsidize the city is silly.  
          You’re basically saying what I have posted as the underlying tone in that people expect 70% of Erie County folks to fund the rebuild of the COB.  Essentially pay for it but don’t have a say in it.  That’s Bull Shit.  
          Like it or not, the little brother in Amherst grew up over the last 50 years and now it has a voice to go with it.  
          I am not saying the county shouldn’t work together.  It should!  
          I am not saying that items shouldn’t be viewed regionally.  They should!  
          What I am saying is Buffalo does not get to call all of the shots.  It’s not 1950.

        • Stan Da Man

          NotaYuppieHipster Stan Da Man Because it’s a ruze. Catholics who are horrible people are allowed to buy indulgences for their sin. It’s all under the guise of “charity”. Do something meager for the poor, commit all the sin you want.

        • EB_Blue

          solonggone le80 47% of ECC’s students are from the City. The City Campus should be the hub, not the smallest, of the three campuses. Keep all three campuses if you’d like, but any growth should occur downtown because that’s where investment makes the most sense for the college, for the students, and for the fastest growing sectors of the region’s economy. Common sense.

        • EB_Blue

          NotaYuppieHipster buffaloroam solonggone Stan Da Man If there are poor people in Cheektowaga, and particularly if they don’t drive, the City Campus is still the most accessible.

        • GinghamQuaker

          Stan Da Man NotaYuppieHipster is the Catholic Church more of a cult than Government? Because Government seems pretty cultish to me, and accomplishes far less (with more money) than the Catholic Church.

  • quote of the day:
    “It should not be an uphill battle for them to go and get a two-year degree.”
    bingo.  it should be easier to go to school than to go to jail or on welfare.

  • Gobills716

    I would rather see the investment downtown but I’m confused on why people act like Amherst has no right getting this building? Some posters even suggesting corruption (or RACISM)…Amherst is the largest source of county tax revenue. It has 120,000 residents. Is home to two major shopping centers and numerous other stores and restaurants, all of which make up a huge chunk of the revenue of the county. Building this building in Buffalo doesn’t help the COUNTY anymore than building it in Amherst.

    • Stan Da Man

      Gobills716 Yes, because White Flight led the sprint to the suburbs years ago. Look how glamorous Transit Road looks!
      We need to reconnect Amherst with the city, despite the objections of “f*ck you, got mine!” conservatives. I know a few businesses in Williamsville that just went under – imagine if there was an extra 5,000 people coming to Williamsville on an expanded metrorail every day to support their business district. 
      But no, can’t give the blacks direct access to Amherst. There goes the neighborhood!

      • thegangler

        Stan Da Man I thought you weren’t coming back?

      • Gobills716

        What??? Take a deep breath Stan…everything is going to be okay.

    • buffaloroam

      Gobills716 
      So is the county helped by housing one prosperous suburb and a dead major city? The best counties in the country Cook County, Manhattan County, Cuyahoga County,  Allegheny County PA, are all known for their one prosperous suburb and their dying cities with a dying downtown area. Right?  That’s what I am hearing here. This idea that the suburbs are in competition with the city and that if the city wins it’s a loss for Amherst. Is that what your saying?

      • Gobills716

        I didn’t realize Cleveland and Pittsburgh are located in the “best counties” in the country.

        • buffaloroam

          Gobills716  Have you ever been to either of these two cities? Downtown Pittsburg rocks and its partly because of the proximity of its colleges and universities downtown.

        • buffaloroam

          Gobills716  
          Also, that’s not my point. the point is that they have cities that work that are destinations and we don’t. We have a giant growing prosperous suburb connected to a dying city. And then folks like you advocate that it is better this way. Gobills you are on the wrong website. This one is called Buffalo rising not sinking.

        • Gobills716

          Yes, I have been blessed and been able to make it to BOTH Cleveland AND Pittsburgh in my lifetime.
          Sorry to break it to you but building a new building for ECC will not revitalize downtown Buffalo. It will be nice but not life changing, nor will it be life changing if the building gets built in Amherst…this is the point of my original comment. I would prefer the building to be built in Buffalo but it’s not the end of the world if it is built in Amherst.

        • Gobills716

          Work on your reading comprehension…read the first line of my original post and then tell me that I advocate that we should invest in Amherst and let the city rot.

        • EB_Blue

          Gobills716 Revitalizing downtown isn’t the point, even though it is obvious that it will help. The point is that downtown Buffalo is the most accessible location for all Erie County residents, especially those who depend on public transit. 30% of all households in the City don’t even have access to a car. Those are the folks ECC was founded to help the most.

        • biniszkiewicz

          Gobills716
          hear, hear!

    • EB_Blue

      Gobills716The majority of folks who attend ECC’s North Campus live in the City. Only 9% of North Campus students are from Amherst. The campus shouldn’t be there at all, let alone expanded.

      • Gobills716

        I never once said I think the building should be built in Amherst, I simply questioned why people think there is a war between the City and the neighboring towns?
        As I originally stated, I support building the new building downtown but I sure as hell don’t think corruption or racism is behind ECCs decision. Maybe ECC has decided to construct the building on the Amherst Campus because building the new building downtown would force them to relocate a plethora of academic departments (Relocation = money) Maybe it makes the most sense to keep the building in Amherst closer to the other science departments? Some people on this site really need to relax, it’s not life or death.

  • EB_Blue

    The more facts that Bernice and her friends put forward, the more this entire thing smells to high heaven. Poloncarz should read his own study.

    • NotaYuppieHipster

      EB_Blue: Last time I noticed, Polencarz was elected by a majority of Erie County residents.  You seem to want to initiate rule by an elitist few  — how many are in the Young Citizens for ECC group?  A couple hundred out of how many Erie County residents?  And how many of them are ECC students?  Again, very few if even a handful. .The study concluded that given the needs of the county as a whole, a STEMS building will best be situated on the North Campus.  How many one year certificate or two year associate degree graduates are employed at the medical campus now?  Projected in the future?  Maybe you should actually read the study because it’s obvious you haven’t.

      • Michael DiPasquale

        NotaYuppieHipster EB_Blue 
        A “study” is how UB ended up in  Amherst, how the Bills stadium ended up in Orchard Park, how Humboldt Parkway was ripped out, the Convention Center was built and on and on. 
        Don’t put so much faith in these studies. They’re  used to cover the behinds of the folks that commissioned them.

        • MickeyHarper

          Michael DiPasquale NotaYuppieHipster EB_Blue 
          ECC is not and never will be UB.  Forcing all of ECC downtown will never make up Buffalo’s loss of UB.

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          Michael DiPasquale  The study also calls for the development of a workforce training center of excellence or the like downtown which in all likelihood and logically will be affiliated with ECC.  Again, I would really like to see somebody answer the questions I’ve posed about how many existing workers currently employed throughout the medical campus are graduates of ECC one year certificate and two year associate degree Health Science programs?  How many from each of the 20 or so ECC Health Science programs?  How many will be hired in the future?  Over the next five years?  Over the next 10 years?

        • Michael DiPasquale

          MickeyHarper Michael DiPasquale NotaYuppieHipster EB_Blue 
          It will help.

        • EB_Blue

          NotaYuppieHipster Michael DiPasquale Yeah, I’ll get right on top of that. Send the check for $75,000 and I’ll survey all the employers at the BNMC. Or, for free, how about I give you some common sense? Where do nurses, medical office assistants, respiratory therapists, X-ray technicians, and folks in a few dozen other professions get educated? Do you seriously think the 17,000 people who will work at the BNMC by 2017 all have doctorate degrees from Yale?

        • EB_Blue

          According to the American Association of Community Colleges, more than 50% of all health sciences workers in the United States are educated at community colleges.

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          EB_Blue Of course Health Science two year graduates get educated at community colleges.  Where are ECC Health Science grads getting their jobs now? All you have to do is ask the placement office at ECC for their yearly report.  It won’t cost $75,000.  You think they are getting jobs all over the BNMC?  Prove it.  And maybe you should actually read the study past the first few pages.

        • EB_Blue

          NotaYuppieHipster EB_Blue No, I bet employees are getting jobs from colleges all over that offer two-year degrees. NCCC, Trocaire, ECC, all over the country, you name it. What’s your point? Is it that ECC won’t benefit from having direct relationships with medical institutions like so many community colleges across the country? Is it that Amherst is the best location for ECC’s expansion? That it’s the most accessible, centrally located, and beneficial location for students? What exactly is your point, aside from your obsession with how many BNMC employees are nurses or x-ray technicians as opposed to graduate-level cancer researchers?

      • EB_Blue

        NotaYuppieHipster EB_Blue The Amherst decision is being put forward by elitists who earned their place on the ECC Board of Trustees through campaign contributions. This decision is being fought by people who have nothing but passion and a voice. You live in an alternative universe.

  • whateverr

    I’m neutral on the location choice (and critical of county funding mechanism regardless of location, not even sure if a new building is needed now)… 
    but those issues should be decided by the set of people who are elected as legislators and executives – so I hope Joel Gimabra’s lawsuit loses very badly.

    The idea that a judge should overrule that it’s somehow illegal for elected officials to decide to locate a new building in Amherst instead of Buffalo looks totally ridiculous.

    • buffaloroam

      whateverr  
      except if those elected officials don’t follow the law.

      • whateverr

        Of course they should have to obey the law, but the idea that a law would be interpreted in that way looks ridiculous.  
        Many counties in NY state have non-urban campuses for community colleges even though the counties have cities in them… Monroe, Onondaga, Niagara, Genesee, …
        Is the claim that spending for facilities on any of those is illegal?   What wording in law is being violated?

        • Stan Da Man

          whateverr Did you even read the article and the basis of Giambra’s lawsuit?

        • buffaloroam

          whateverr  
           Onondaga’s main campus is in the city of Syracuse. How many of those colleges have a downtown branch like Buffalo does. I am not a lawyer and haven’t read the law. I wish that Joel would of done a better job with this when he was in office and we wouldn’t be having this problem now.

        • whateverr

          Yes, Stan, and it doesn’t look to my citizen layman’s reading that it at all says it’s illegal to ever construct anything on campuses in Amherst, Sanborn, Henrietta, Liverpool, etc.
          Is http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$ENV6-0107$$@TXENV06-0107+&LIST=LAW+&BROWSER=BROWSER+&TOKEN=06349431+&TARGET=VIEW say that?
          “3. Before making any commitment, including entering into an agreement
          or incurring any indebtedness for the purpose of acquiring,
          constructing, or financing any project covered by the provisions of this
          article, the chief executive officer of a state infrastructure agency
          shall attest in a written smart growth impact statement that the
          project, to the extent practicable, meets the relevant criteria set
          forth in subdivision two of this section, unless in any respect the
          project does not meet such criteria or compliance is considered to be
          impracticable, which shall be detailed in a statement of justification.”

        • whateverr

          roam, Onondaga has a suburban Liverpool campus (so are you saying it’s illegal for them to ever build anything on that branch?  Really?  Illegal?)
          And the Syracuse branch although in city limits is not at all in downtown – it’s in a very low density sprawly part of Syracuse/city.

          Monroe’s community college has a major presence in suburban Brighton (I erred in saying Henrietta previously).  Genesee’s main campus is very visible from the Thruway – not at all in the city part of Batavia (might be in town of Batavia, but it’s very isolated, although there is also some presence in city of Batavia).

          Amherst is very developed at this point, probably very similar in density to where the ‘city’ campus in Syracuse is. Amherst is certainly more dense a setting than where Genesee community college main campus is away from city of Batavia, and I think very similar density to Rochester’s in Brighton.
          Again for now arguing about what’s legal, not merits on either side separate from that.

        • MickeyHarper

          nyc lines whateverr 
          You already have transportation access at City Campus, but more city residents choose to travel to North Campus. ECC students get free bus passes. No problem there.

        • buffaloroam

          MickeyHarper nyc lines whateverr  
          more people go to north campus because that is where their classes are offered, not out of some choice.

        • MickeyHarper

          buffaloroam MickeyHarper nyc lines whateverr 
          Almost all classes are offered at all 3 campuses. Students matriculated into Dental Hygiene, Auto Tech and IT are limited to campuses.  Unless all the Buffalo residents are matriculated in these programs, then they can get classes at any of 3 campuses.

        • MickeyHarper

          nyc lines MickeyHarper 
          North Campus is where most ECC attend classes. It’s a busy campus. Twice as big as City and South combined. North is where the students are.

        • MickeyHarper

          nyc lines MickeyHarper 
          More students find their way to ECC North.

        • Stan Da Man

          MickeyHarper nyc lines No shit – they have no other option but to find transportation out to Amherst.

        • MickeyHarper

          Stan Da Man MickeyHarper nyc lines 
          What difference does it make if students take a metro bus north or south on Main street? Other options: Buff State, Medaille, Canisius, UB, UB-EOC.

        • MickeyHarper

          nyc lines MickeyHarper 
          Agreed. But more students still choose to come to North Campus.

        • Stan Da Man

          MickeyHarper nyc lines …ECC North has a larger campus with more classes offered. Students don’t choose, they *have* to go there if they’re enrolled at ECC and the downtown campus doesn’t offer their class.

        • MickeyHarper

          Stan Da Man MickeyHarper nyc lines 
          Half of all ECC students are enrolled in Liberal Arts, General Studies or non-matriculated. Thier courses are all offered on all 3 campuses.

        • EB_Blue

          MickeyHarper buffaloroam nyc lines whateverr That’s just plain incorrect, MickeyHarper. Almost all programs are NOT offered at all three campuses. The ECC study makes this plain.

        • whateverr

          nyc lines
          Again, focusing on wording of the law in question (not debating merits like the elected county legislature can do)….

          There is public transit between ECC North & different parts of the city/county including downtown – several regular routes as well as the ECC shuttle “67A”.

          From the NFTA Trip planner for today July 18 over the next hour from now, here’s two possible itinerary options, one using shuttle route 67A and one using a combo of route 66B (Amherst) and route 48C (Transit):
          “Itinerary #1
          Walk 0.1 mile NW from ECC CITY CAMPUS to
          Depart Washington Street & South Division Street At 04:20 PM 
          On 67A ECC NORTH 67A VIA EXPWY
          Arrive Youngs Road & ECC North Campus At 05:04 PM
          Walk 0.1 mile SW to ECC NORTH CAMPUS”
          [total time 44 minutes]

          “Itinerary #2
          Walk 0.1 mile NW from ECC CITY CAMPUS to
          Depart Washington Street & South Division Street At 04:45 PM 
          On 66B NO. AMHERST 66B VIA EXPWY
          Arrive Main Street & South Forest Road At 05:07 PM
          Transfer to
          Depart Main Street & South Forest Road At 05:14 PM 
          On 48C TRANSIT- VIA EASTERN HILLS E.C.C.N.
          Arrive Youngs Road & ECC North Campus At 05:24 PM
          Walk 0.1 mile SW to ECC NORTH CAMPUS”
          [total time 39 minutes]

          Keeping in mind a court ruling will affect what’s allowed for 60+ counties in NYS, what’s illegal under that law’s wording if an elected county legislature ever wants to build something for a community college on a suburban campus even when there’s also a city campus available?

          If courts interpret that vague law wording linked from the article to be outlawing that, then Giambra will win his lawsuit and so be it.
          However, what I’m saying is I don’t see how the law is saying that looking at the whole thing (which isn’t very long) even though it does mention public transportation.

          If the state assembly, senate, & Cuomo want for new buildings on suburban campuses to be outlawed for all counties that have a city campus, then they should try to pass a law that plainly says that.

        • whateverr

          nyc lines”It will never be so black and white to say if you have a city campus it is illegal to build on the suburban campus.”  

          If it’s true that the state leg would never say it that clearly in a law (& I think probably you’re correct on that), then I’d contend the reason it’s true is a majority in the state leg didn’t/doesn’t intend for it to be against state law.  

          Thus it’d be a ridiculous overreach if a state judge legally interpreted wording in a way the leg majority didn’t intend.  That’s why I think the court should & will decide against Giambra if he goes through with a suit that tries to argue on that basis for outlawing inner ring suburban campus building projects.  

          Time will tell.  I’ll hope Giambra does file the suit so we can see the result either way.  One thing the state won’t have is a unique law or interpretation for only Erie County about this that doesn’t also apply in those other places I mentioned and more.

          If the decision is to be reversed and the new building put in the city (or not built at all, which might be an ok choice) then it should be the elected legislatures (county &/or state) who decide that on the merits through their budget writing authority, &/or Poloncarz &/or Cuomo if they want to use their powers to intervene – which either easily could do.

    • Michael DiPasquale

      whateverr 
      Yes, it  looks totally ridiculous until it’s built and it’s too late to unbuild it.
      How ridiculous is it that some politicians in a room decided to move UB to Amherst?

      • whateverr

        To answer your question, I’m not sure if it was a ridiculous decision on merits way back then in the ’50s or ’60s – when the waterfront area was still being heavily polluted by steel plants every day and if a large enough parcel elsewhere downtown wasn’t being offered to UB. 

        When I go past Grover Cleveland golf course I’ll sometimes think that could’ve been a good location for it – but I recall reading somewhere that a deed restriction prevented such a use. I’ve no idea if that’s true.

        Anyhow, the city has all of Buff State, plus UB schools of medicine, nursing, pharmacy, architecture and some others.   The rest of UB being under 5 miles away in Amherst isn’t truly ridiculous or unfair.  If a good site had been available in the city back then, maybe that could’ve been fine too but they concluded it wasn’t.

        Regarding “politicians in a room” deciding back then, I don’t know if public opinion was mostly opposed to what they decided.  There might’ve been a community majority agreeing with the politicians.  I don’t know.   

        I also have no idea what countywide public opinion is about this new building for ECC, or about the ECC campus location topic in general.   A voter referendum to decide would sound like a good idea to me.

    • EB_Blue

      whateverr SUNY must meet the smart growth criteria, unless it isn’t “practicable,” in which case the investment must otherwise be justified. Is it practicable to build downtown instead of Amherst? Yes. Has the process established by the smart growth law been followed? Probably not. I’m no attorney, but I find the argument interesting (there’s also SEQRA that must be followed).

      • whateverr

        EB_Blue
        My reading of that doesn’t conclude that adding a building in a well developed part of Amherst (Main-Youngs) is at all necessarily inconsistent with the criteria.
        It isn’t as though Poloncarz & the county legislators are trying to build a new campus in Alden, Eden, or Concord.

        The court will decide (if Giambra goes through with suit), but just for fun for now, I’d wonder …. are you also saying that law’s wording really outlaws GCCC from ever constructing a new building on their main campus outside of the city of Batavia because the college also has a small presence within the city there?   
        Or in Monroe, that it’s currently illegal for anything to ever be built on the Brighton campus of MCCC?   
        Same for Sanborn campus in Niagara, Liverpool campus in  Onondaga, etc?
        If the state legislators intended for any and all of that to be illegal, why not write a law which directly says that?

  • Michael DiPasquale

    There are many reasons to expand ECC in the city, including helping to revitalize downtown, being accessible to more students by public transit, proximity to UB Med School, UB EOC and BNMC.
    But what are the  advantages of expanding in Amherst?

    • EB_Blue

      Michael DiPasquale There are NO advantages.

    • NotaYuppieHipster

      Michael DiPasquale There is also a large and growing medical corridor in Amherst, where there are facilities at which ECC Health Science graduates actually intern and get jobs (and still nobody has ventured to prove their claim that ECC grads are or will be working all over the place at BNMC).  Also look at the study in terms of where the jobs are for graduates from ECC’s Technologies programs. Additionally, the targeted programs for the building are already located at the North Campus.  What would be the cost of moving these programs downtown and re-installing the training equipment these programs utilize? So there is also a cost savings advantage. ECC (and Erie County) is penalized a lot of $$$ when Erie County students go to NCCC; most of these expat students would otherwise opt to go to North Campus, not City or South. And maybe the development is better characterized as an upgrading rather than expansion.  Again, the development is taking place on the existing campus, not apart from it.

      • EB_Blue

        NotaYuppieHipster Michael DiPasquale The cost for steel, brick, glass, flooring, HVAC systems, lab equipment would all be the same. The County owns land at North Campus and it owns land at City Campus. Cost is not what’s driving this decision.

      • EB_Blue

        And where exactly is the Amherst Medical Corridor? Does it have 17,000 employees? Does it have access to 35 bus routes, three highways, an intercity bus terminal, and 32,700 parking spaces, like downtown does?

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          EB_Blue You really need to get out of the city once in a while.

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          EB_Blue How many of those 17,000 employees are graduates of ECC?  C’mon, cant you even come up with a guestimate?

        • EB_Blue

          NotaYuppieHipster EB_Blue My guestimate is half were trained at community colleges, based on what is typical across the United States.

        • EB_Blue

          So where is the Amherst Medical Corridor? Is it around the great metropolis emerging at the edges of Millard Fillmore Suburban Hospital, a branch of Kaleida with 265 beds? Or is it near the Amherst Dental Group offices on Hopkins Road in Williamsville?

      • Michael DiPasquale

        NotaYuppieHipster Michael DiPasquale 
        Please tell us what the “growing medical corridor in Amherst is”. There is no such thing.

  • NotaYuppieHipster

    There is an ECC City Campus which has recently undergone millions of dollars of renovations.  The study supports the creation of a workforce development center or the like which will in all likelihood be affiliated with ECC to supported by NYS Regional Development Corporation funding. 
    Instead of being Luddites intent on stopping development on the ECC North Campus (it is not getting sprawled anywhere other than where it is already located), why not focus on supporting the development of the workforce development center of excellence downtown?

    • Michael DiPasquale

      NotaYuppieHipster 
      The fact that “sprawl” already exists in Amherst is no reason to create more, and make things worse.

      • NotaYuppieHipster

        Michael DiPasquale Sorry, but I don’t consider it”sprawl” if the development is on an existing campus.  It would be sprawl if a satellite location was established apart from the existing campus.  And if you want to convince me and others to support the construction of the ECC facility downtown, you have to inform us exactly how many ECC Health Science one year certificate and two year associate degree program graduates are currently employed throughout the BNMC.  And how many are projected to be hired in the next five years and the next ten years?  And please break those numbers down by each of the twenty or so programs offered by ECC.  C’mon all you young urban planners!  Rise to the challenge – or admit that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

        • buffaloroam

          NotaYuppieHipster Michael DiPasquale 
          Why don’t you break down all 20,000 students at the University at Buffalo North Campus and tell us how many are working in the Amherst area when they graduate. When your done with that you can do the same for Buffalo State, Canisius, St. Bonnies and for that matter you can do Syracuse U and Cornell too. 
          What’s the point of this stupid argument? Building the campus downtown makes sense. If you can’t see that then no amount of us “urban planners” explaining that to you would convince your naive brain otherwise.

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          Go ahead. Get nastier and nastier.  That really helps your cause (not). ECC actually does track it’s graduates and you can find out where they are getting employed.  How does proximity to BNMC help ECC students if they aren’t getting and aren’t projected to get jobs there? Really, wasn’t that the crux of your (former) argument?

        • EB_Blue

          How can you possibly argue that ECC graduates won’t get jobs at BNMC? Or ignore the one hundred other reasons that expanding the City Campus makes sense?

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          EB_Blue Look at the job projections for the BNMC.  What type of job titles are they?  For the most part, are they the type of jobs that one year certificate and two year associate degree Health Sciences grads can be expected to fill?  Do you have any understanding of regional job market analysis?

        • EB_Blue

          NotaYuppieHipster EB_Blue Yes, they are the types of jobs for which community colleges now train. Who works at Children’s Hospital? Kaleida? Nurses, x-ray technicians, medical office assistants, you name it. Go away.

        • EB_Blue

          NotaYuppieHipster And by the way, how good of you to create such a clever screen name just to respond to this single post.

        • Blinky

          EB_Blue Do you live in the city?  Are you aware that Children’s Hospital is located on the West Side and is not a member institution of the BNMC?  And Kaleida was in that area long before the advent of BNMC and ECC students were getting internships and jobs there at that time. To be sure, Kaleida is the health care delivery backbone of the BNMC.  But where else do you think ECC Health Science grads will get jobs in the overall complex.  Please be specific.

        • Michael DiPasquale

          NotaYuppieHipster Michael DiPasquale 
          Your statement that the ECC campus would be sprawl “if a satellite location was established” is false. Sprawl is when you choose to put development in the suburbs when there are perfectly good options downtown.

    • EB_Blue

      NotaYuppieHipster There is no financial commitment to that facility. Why is it insufficient to say that City residents are underserved (they make up 47% of ECC’s students, yet the City Campus has only enough programs to serve 25% of ECC’s students). The new health sciences facility doesn’t belong eight miles away on Youngs Rd. This is COMMON SENSE.

      • NotaYuppieHipster

        EB_Blue  Are you suggesting that Governor Cuomo is jiving us with all his talk of the Buffalo Billion and a commitment to some kind of a workforce development center of excellence downtown???  Let’s not forget the role the Cuomo administration had in the study (studies, actually).  Do you even know specifically what academic programs are targeted for the proposed new facility?  They are not all Health Sciences. I’m not responding to any more responses until advocates of a facility downtown come up with some real data as to how many ECC Health Sciences grads are currently employed throughout the BNMC, projected to be so employed in the future, etc. Youi’ve made the proximity of the downtown medical corridor to be the fulcrum of your arguments — now show us how that proximity relates to jobs for ECC Health Science graduates.  I’m not saying it can’t be done. Maybe it can.  But if you can’t come up with that kind of supporting evidence, your arguments remain largely specious and simply a matter of rah-rah urban boosterism – not a bad thing in itself but hardly a good argument..

        • EB_Blue

          NotaYuppieHipster EB_Blue 7 of the 10 programs slated for the facility are in the health sciences. They’re on the page 4 of the study.

        • EB_Blue

          Again, give me $75,000 and I’ll survey all the BNMC employers so that you as a Buffalo Rising commenter can be assured that Buffalo isn’t all that different from the nation as a whole (50% of all health sciences workers are educated at community colleges), and that 17,000 slated to work at the BNMC by 2017 do not all have doctorates from Yale.

        • buffaloroam

          NotaYuppieHipster EB_Blue  
          “Fulcrum of your arguments” BullSh$t!  Where was the BNMC ten or 12 years ago when moving ECC downtown was proposed by Giambra? It didn’t even exist. You can make a full case “fulcrum” and all about moving ECC downtown without ever even mentioning the BNMC.

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          buffaloroam   So you’ve given up on the arguments that have been made by Young Citizens for ECC regarding proximity to the BNMC.  Wise choice!

        • buffaloroam

          NotaYuppieHipster buffaloroam  
          I haven’t given up on them. They are still there (and are pretty powerful) whether you want to deny them or not. All I am saying is that I can make a pretty darn good case without them. Downtown revitalization, common sense urban planning, accessibility, academic needs being fulfilled for the most students etc.

        • buffaloroam

          NotaYuppieHipster buffaloroam  
          Hipster, What is it that you have against this argument? BNMC is only the largest collection of hospitals and doctor’s offices in all of upstate NY. Why is it so hard to accept that a good percentage of people who come out with medical degree’s from ECC would end up getting employed there. After all 7out of 10 programs in the “Health Sciences Building” are going to be in the Health Sciences.

        • NotaYuppieHipster

          buffaloroam  Name those 7 programs. Name the job titles linked to them that you think ECC Health Science grads are filling there now.  How many are employed there in each academic/job pathway?How many more in 5 years?  In 10 years?  Numbers are real.  Your arguments are purely rhetorical.

        • EB_Blue

          NotaYuppieHipsterbuffaloroamThe seven of ten programs slated for the “STEM” facility at North Campus are anatomy and physiology, biomanufacturing, medical lab technology, medical assisting, nursing, and respiratory care. Page 4 of the ECC study.

        • EB_Blue

          NotaYuppieHipster buffaloroam By the way, gaze into your crystal ball and tell us all how many ECC North Campus students will be employed at the “Amherst Medical Corridor” in 2030.

        • Blinky

          EB_Blue  I don’t know about the other guy, but given that the ECC building is going to be built on the North campus (done deal, sorry), I don’t think a crystal ball is needed to foretell that more ECC Health Science grads will probably be employed in the Amherst Health Services Delivery Corridor, and other suburban locales as well.  The Buffalo News has featured more than a few articles about it in the past few years.

    • EB_Blue

      NotaYuppieHipster And what does fixing the roof at the Old Post Office have to do with where an expansion is best suited? THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY ARGUMENT FOR THIS B. S. DECISION TO EXPAND THE AMHERST CAMPUS. Shame on Poloncarz!

  • EB_Blue

    WBFO had a good sum-up of the public meeting:
    http://news.wbfo.org/post/critics-blast-ecc-north-expansion

  • foreverbflo

    Maybe ECC has some kind of longterm agreement with NFTA?

  • jstraubinger

    Let’s see, UB is affiliated with the BNMC in a very obvious and big way. D’Youville has classroom space in  the Innovation Center. Other area colleges are inquiring about partnering or finding roles with the BNMC. There is a Health Sciences Charter High School that moved in from Tondawonda to a location on Ellicott St that is very nearby the BNMC. Even the Amherst Chamber of Commerce has an office in the Innovation Center for what purposes we can only guess. Yet in all this contraversary about the location of this building we have heard nothing from the ECC about partnering with the BNMC on anything, ever. The BNMC is a jobs generator so why is the ECC avoiding it like the plague?

  • WIGS

    In 1955, City of Buffalo Mayor, Steven Pankow said in his State of the City speech: “SUBURBANITIS. Nothing perturbs me more than this subject. I am studying the Toronto Metropolitan Plan.” Here we are 58 years later and Erie County/Western New York is still making dumb decisions. 
    One wonders if Buffalo/WNY had followed in Toronto’s footsteps if things would be different today, instead of every little village and town fighting each other for an ever decreasing slice of the pie.
    I am a graduate of both ECC ’06 (North Campus) and Buffalo State ’08. With all the development in the Buffalo Niagara Medical Campus it only makes sense to build a new science building in the city, close to most of the present and future healthcare/medical research jobs in the region. A stronger core makes a stronger city and region as a whole. 
    I now live in Calgary which is experiencing growth that Western New York hasn’t seen since the early 20th century. With an impressively strong downtown/inner city core that employs ~140,000 people and one of the most successful LRT systems in North America. Living here is like living in the Buffalo that could have been, what Buffalonians thought the city and area would be like when they built the massive City Hall. 
    Sadly, fast forward decades to the present and the WNY region is still making dumb mistakes. Shameful. or as the youth of today say: “epic FAIL”

    • NotaYuppieHipster

      WIGS You think ECC two year graduates in the health sciences are going to be employed to do medical research?

      • EB_Blue

        NotaYuppieHipster WIGS Now you’re just being annoying and ignorant.

    • le80

      WIGS Stop making sense.  Clearly whatever other cities are doing right can’t possibly work for Buffalo.  We’re different!  <sarcasm>

  • biniszkiewicz

    Three observations:
    1. Many on this site seem inclined to support  the idea of selling the suburban campuses (the land at the Amherst campus is indeed valuable) and using that money to build a great downtown campus for reasons variously cited above. The unified campus debate, revisited a decade later.
    Here’s a reason to fear that downtown campus scenario:
    That Amherst land is valuable only because developers covet it. For what purpose? Office buildings, that’s what. Possibly some high density residential thrown in, too. Does that help? That land is exceptionally well situated. Great roads, airport, desirable suburb. . . speaking as a commercial real estate professional, that land would attract big interest. 
    Isn’t the city better off with a lightly developed ECC North, as opposed to opening up a huge swath of developable land in the very heart of Amherst? That development could not help but suck the air out of other regional development, including Buffalo’s. It would hurt the downtown office market more than the downtown campus would help us.

    2. Pampiniform, NotaYuppie, others hit the nail squarely, imo. The case has not been made to me that medical campus proximity would benefit ECC students.
    I also have to agree that the sense of entitlement among city residents for county investment is embarrassing. Look where Erie County throws everybody’s tax money every day: offices downtown. The Rath Building, the Sheriffs dept, the courts, other agencies . . . The money to pay for that downtown development comes from all of Erie County, and we receive far more than we give, from a financial point of view. We ought express appreciation for that support once in a while instead of trying to bite the hand that feeds at every opportunity.

    3. I miss the down vote.

    • pampiniform

      3. Me too. It kind of takes a lot of the fun out of this site.

    • Spock1

      biniszkiewiczI also have to agree that the sense of entitlement among city residents for county investment is embarrassing. 
      Aren’t those here making the anti-city argument expressing sense of entitlement too?  It seems both sides are making the argument that this project should be located in a part of the region more aligned with their personal preferences (myself included, I say put it downtown).  Maybe the city residents make you embarrassed as a city resident, but they aren’t the only side of the argument  expressing entitlement.   

       The money to pay for that downtown development comes from all of Erie
      County, and we receive far more than we give, from a financial point of
      view.
      That’s one of the many pitfalls of the hyper-localism model of government that we have stubbornly clung to.  There is going to be some inevitable redistribution across municipal boundaries for regional investments, considering the abundance of largely obsolete and overlapping municipalities.  That redistribution goes in both directions though as massive amounts of subsidies are required to sustain sprawl culture.  
      As far as the downvotes  go, I don’t miss them, and I could do without the upvote.    The whole voting thing seems to encourage ideological swarming.

    • EB_Blue

      biniszkiewicz 1. I don’t know how many folks support a consolidation, but that’s not what this issue is about. It’s about where the most appropriate location for this particular investment. 47% of ECC students are from the city; the City Campus has only so many programs to serve 25% of ECC students. The City Campus is the most accessible and convenient campus for them and the majority of folks in Erie County. There is land available in downtown Buffalo to do it. The proximity to BNMC and other downtown jobs only adds to the convenience. So, why Amherst?
      2. The idea that folks fighting for this investment are motivated by entitlement is a distortion. Where is the need the greatest? Where will the return on investment be the greatest? What is the most convenient location, not just for folks who drive but take transit, too? How can the answer possibly be Youngs Rd.?

    • le80

      biniszkiewicz 2:  A quick search on Buffalo Internships reveal the majority are in Buffalo (with many in the technology/medical field) and only 3 in Amherst within the first 5 pages of search results..  So if you’re already busing 45+ min from Buffalo to class, that’s another 45 back to a potential internship.  Repeat.  
       http://www.simplyhired.com/a/jobs/list/q-internships/l-buffalo%2C+ny/pn-2

      • EB_Blue

        le80 biniszkiewicz The North Campus is not only inconvenient for internships, but for nearly everything. Maybe students can walk 40 minutes to the Eastern Hills Mall for a coffee between classes.

      • solonggone

        le80 biniszkiewicz
        Le80 – Regarding your link:
        I took the address for Roswell Park and narrowed the search to just 5 miles from 665 Elm St  Buffalo, NY 14263.  
        Found several positions for a Pharmacy Intern but all require significantly more education than what is found with an ECC student.  The one low skill ‘internship’ I found was for a work from home entry level data processing position.  
        Stopped looking after page 8.  The reason is this is just one site.  The greater point is NOBODY has been able to show a list of possible internships for ECC students at the medical campus.  A call to ECC is all that’s needed.  A similar call to Buff St., UB or any of the other universities in the area can produce a list or companies they work with.  
        The reason why no list has been presented is that it does not exist.  Does not matter the location.  Internships are a competitive area and there simply more qualified students at the local universities.

        • EB_Blue

          solonggone le80 biniszkiewicz Community colleges are often stepping stones to four-year programs at other institutions. Under Poloncarz’s plan, programs that prepare students for four-year institutions would be shifted to the suburbs, while the City Campus is reforged to focus on remedial programs and blue collar job training. This kind of elitism (four year programs for suburbanites, GED courses and training for rapidly declining manufacturing jobs for City residents) is appalling.

        • solonggone

          EB_Blue le80 biniszkiewicz
          While you think it’s appalling.  How realistic is it?  Honest question.  Sometimes speaking honestly can be insulting at the same time but without intent.  
          We hear all of the time that what the COB needs is good jobs for those who are under the thumb of poverty.  But so many don’t have the skills to qualify for those entry level positions.  But when a solution is presented…you seem to want to reject it as insulting.  
          While your claim is true that Community Colleges are often stepping stones to four-year programs, they are also great tools to COMPLETE a two-year program and enter the workforce competitively.
          I think you need to get a reality check.  When the BPS graduates less than half of its students….a County funded program for GED students to gain skills for jobs that are above entry level minimum wage is a damn good thing.  To suggest otherwise is a bit ignorant.

        • EB_Blue

          solonggone EB_Blue le80 biniszkiewicz No, a solution is to provide as many avenues of personal advancement as possible, not set the low bar because it’s the City. With 52% of North Campus students living in the City, not the suburbs, that clearly shows a high level of interest of City residents in classes and programs that are offered exclusively in Amherst. Having blue collar job training is good, no doubt, but limiting options this way is indeed appalling.

        • EB_Blue

          solonggone  EB_Blue And in what fields are jobs growing the fastest in Buffalo? It’s the health sciences. Jobs in manufacturing plummeted by more than 40% since 2000.

        • Blinky

          EB_Blue  Seems you are unaware of the rising tide of jobs in advanced manufacturing in WNY.  Do you ever read the Buffalo News? Watch TV?  Or do you just rely completely on alternative media sources?  I suggest you try them all to get a broader and more insightful an nuanced view of reality.

        • EB_Blue

          BlinkyEB_BlueBuffalo loses 35,900 manufacturing jobs since 2000: http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/news/2010/12/27/99-top-markets-lose-manufacturing-jobs.html

        • Blinky

          EB_Blue There’s a HUGE difference between traditional manufacturing jobs and advanced manufacturing jobs.  Call up just about any administrative official at ECC and ask them about job placement rates for advanced manufacturing one year certificate and two year associate degree graduates (or even non-graduates).

        • EB_Blue

          Blinky EB_Blue No, jobs in advanced manufacturing are expected to decline at least another 6% by 2020. Job placement by new students will come only from retirements. No matter how you slice it, this is an industry in which there will be fewer jobs, not more, in the coming years. It is not a growth sector.

        • Blinky

          EB_Blue The federal and NYS government is going out of it’s way in investing your tax dollars in  advanced manufacturing training.  You must be outraged!  Vote out those insipid foolish scoundrels.  Or you could read the ECC study beyond the first few pages to find out how local manufacturers are going begging for a sufficient number of ECC advanced manufacturing grads The supply cannot meet the demand.  Or you could do some more in-depth research beyond some misguided headlines.

        • EB_Blue

          Blinky EB_Blue No, I think it’s fine. Retirees need to be replaced and there are too few young folks skilled as mechanics and the like. But there are also too few young folks skilled as nurses, x-ray technicians, medical office assistants, and other professions in a GROWING profession. Those programs ought to be as accessible as possible to the widest number of people. That means shifting those programs downtown.

        • EB_Blue

          Blinky GROWING sector*

    • solonggone

      biniszkiewicz
      That Amherst land is valuable only because developers covet it. For what purpose? Office buildings, that’s what. Possibly some high density residential thrown in, too. Does that help? That land is exceptionally well situated. Great roads, airport, desirable suburb. . . speaking as a commercial real estate professional, that land would attract big interest. 
      It’s crazy to think what Amherst would do with that much land.  A bit amusing that people fail to consider the fact that the TOA would not just let that campus ‘fall apart’ if ECC moved.
      I would be redeveloped in a matter of years and it would be very attractive to both residents and companies in the region.

    • Michael DiPasquale

      biniszkiewicz 
      It is not logical that selling land in Amherst to developers is going to hurt downtown. Downtown is becoming more popular than ever for housing, entertainment and offices. This will only increase when Canalside and HarborCenter are built out.
      A critical mass of students at one central downtown ECC can reap great benefits for the city and will add to the momentum developing there.

      • Blinky

        Michael DiPasquale
        When Canalside and HarborCenter are built out?  I’ll be happy if and when somebody fixes the creaky wooden lawn chair that almost killed me the other night.
        A critical mass of students downtown?  What about the UB Bailey-Main campus? How come nobody is byoching about all the money that is going into construction there, a lot more than the measely $30 million for ECC, just a few miles down the road from ECC North?  Why shouldn’t that UB campus go downtown, too, if you want a critical mass of students to spur downtown development?

  • eastamherstbias

    I would rather ECC move everything to Amherst unless there is ample parking in the City for the students.

    • EB_Blue

      eastamherstbias So 32,700 parking spaces in downtown Buffalo isn’t enough?

      • eastamherstbias

        EB_Blue eastamherstbias 
        coming from someone who went to UB….nope.

        • EB_Blue

          eastamherstbias EB_Blue So you want the rest of downtown Buffalo demolished so it’s even more convenient to go there?

        • EB_Blue

          Half of downtown already demolished for 32,700 parking spaces hasn’t gone far enough?

        • eastamherstbias

          EB_Blue eastamherstbias 
          Actually I am pretty confident we can find more to demolish to fit a football stadium, new convention center and a new ECC downtown along with ample parking.

        • EB_Blue

          eastamherstbias EB_Blue Name one downtown building that should be demolished for more parking.

        • eastamherstbias

          EB_Blue eastamherstbias 
          SKYWAY, grain elevators, pilot field (move to stadium/convention complex.

    • Michael DiPasquale

      eastamherstbias 
      Well, at least you’re honest. And you’ve got the name to prove it.

  • TominBuff

    I find it amusing the people who say that they disagree with Joel Giambra’s Lawsuit against ECC.
    Would we have Canalside if not for a lawsuit?
    When the government is making a decision for the wrong reasons then sometimes a lawsuit is the only way to force the truth into the public sphere.
    We don’t always win. We won with Canalside, delayed the peace bridge plaza and lost the Columbus homes. Im glad that Joel is bringing a lawsuit.
    Think of all the kids who cannot afford transportation, college costs. They need jobs to goto college and repay their student loans. They wont get those job opportunities out in North Campus. If this were a battle of city versus county then Id say let the politicians battle it out. We must not forget this is about out kids.

    • whateverr

      TominBuff
      tom>”Would we have Canalside if not for a lawsuit?”

      Yes, I think we would because I don’t recall a lawsuit having an impact in how Canalside turned out (for better or worse – I’m not a fan of Canalside, but I don’t blame it on lawsuits, I blame the politicians who decided).

      What lawsuit are you referring to about Canalside?
      The only one I recall was by Goldman and some others which lost in court (although it had merit in my view) regarding public govt funding for retail there.  The court upheld the legality of Bass Pro (or any retailer) receiving that govt funding from NYS/ECHDC.  So I don’t see how that lawsuit had any effect either way on how Canalside turned out so far.  Bass Pro lost interest for other reasons – not because govt funding was ever withdrawn.  

      Am I overlooking any lawsuit that did have a big effect on Canalside?

      • whateverr

        nyc linesThe original walls are important to some people no doubt, but even if they’d been replaced by new replica walls as NYS wanted to do at first, I don’t see reason to think the overall Canalside project would be any different here in 2013 in context of how Tom worded it “Would we have Canalside if not for a lawsuit?”
        If Tom meant Would Canalside have the original walls if not for a lawsuit? – then yes it’s an example, true.  

        However, the boardwalk, the in-progress faux shallow new canals, the cobblestone pavement, concert space, Clinton’s Dish, the future kid’s museum, etc., etc – it still isn’t apparent to me how a lawsuit caused any of that to happen in general.

      • Michael DiPasquale

        whateverr nyc lines 
        Tim Tielman and his proposed lawsuits is what made Canalside.  It’s not perfect, but much better than the original proposal that Tim stopped.

    • whateverr

      TominBuff
      tom>”I find it amusing the people who say that they disagree with Joel Giambra’s Lawsuit against ECC.”

      And I’m amused if anyone really thinks the lawsuit has legal merit but can’t or wont point to anything in the law’s wording that would be violated by ECC (or MCC, GCC, OCC, NCCC, …) ever constructing any building in a well-developed inner ring suburb such as Amherst (or Brighton, Liverpool, Sanborn, …. etc – any inner burb statewide).  The http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=@SLENV0A6+&LIST=LAW+&BROWSER=BROWSER+&TOKEN=06349431+&TARGET=VIEW, same link Mike P included in the post.  It isn’t very long.

      So maybe there’s a lot of amusement going on for different reasons!

      As I replied to nyc yesterday, I hope Giambra does file suit – so I don’t ‘disagree’ with his filing of it – but I’d predict & hope he loses badly in court because the law’s wording doesn’t forbid what Poloncarz wants to do, and judges shouldn’t weigh in on subjective merits aside from a law’s wording.  
      If Giambra chickens out by not filing suit after all this buildup, then we won’t find out if his interpretation of that law is as wrong as I think.  

      If the court says he’s correct and I’m wrong, that’d be good to know too.  If that surprisingly happens, I’d predict the state leg would quickly make clear through additional legislation that they don’t intend for inner suburb community college campus construction to be illegal across NY state.  We’ll see what happens.  

      Continuing amusement all around…

  • MikePatRaleigh

    Way to bring the ruckus! 
    I did not realize how many ECC students are Buffalo residents.
    There are few things more refreshing than a policy argument soundly based in demographic information and a legal argument based upon state law.
    I am excited to see the NYS Smart Growth Public Infrastructure Policy Act in action.
    It is the purpose of this article to augment the state’s environmental
    policy by declaring a fiscally prudent state policy of maximizing the
    social, economic and environmental benefits from public infrastructure
    development through minimizing unnecessary costs of sprawl development
    including environmental degradation, disinvestment in urban and suburban
    communities and loss of open space induced by sprawl facilitated by the
    funding or development of new or expanded transportation, sewer and
    waste water treatment, water, education, housing and other publicly
    supported infrastructure inconsistent with smart growth public
    infrastructure criteria.

  • solonggone

    Reviewed the study again.  http://www2.erie.gov/environment/sites/www2.erie.gov.environment/files/uploads/24%20May%202013%20ECC%20Program%20Needs%20Analysis%20and%20Space%20Utilization%20Assessment.pdf
    Some interesting points.
    The total enrollment for ECC is 12,956 students. While it’s true that 46.7 (6,593 students) of ECC students are city residents, the breakdown is intesting.45% of those (2,994 students) attend the North Campus.  That’s just 23% of the entire student body.37% of those (2,465 students) already attend the Downtown Campus. This is 19% of the entire student body.15% of those (995 students) attend the South Campus. This is 7% of the student body.1% of those (70 students) are cross enrolled.
    So really 47% conversation is REALLY ABOUT the about the 2,994 city residents or the 25% who attend the North Campus.  A bit of a differnet conversation…..
    Now going further….
    1,834 students who live in Erie County attend Niagara County Community College.  Whereas only 488 students who live in Niagara County attend Erie County Community College.  That is a net loss of 1346 students.

    So from what I can see, the DT campus advocates are fighting to build out that campus for less than 25% of the student body who is supposidly inconvienced by the North Campus location.  Although this is debatable as if you look at Figure 4.12 – North Campus Students’ Residences Density Map you will see the most dense areas of the city are on the Amherst/Cheektowaga border…not the East Side, South or Noth Buffalo but right smack dab between the two campuses.  
    But this conversation is happening without mention of the 1346 students who live in Erie County but go to NCCC.  Not only does Erir County have to subsidize this but the question that should be answered is where do those  1346 students or even the entire 1,834 block students who live in Erie County but pick NCCC live?
    The reason I ask is if those students can come back to ECC, the current 47%…which is really 23% is going to be lower.  
    With some additional data I took 1 in 2 to 1 in 4 and it’s possible it’s 1 in 8.  Fun.

    • EB_Blue

      solonggone
      This
      is the only meritorious but still specious argument that has been
      brought up by folks advocating for a new building at ECC North. The
      question for them is, what in the world makes them think a new building
      will attract back 1,346 students? 
      The
      ECC study demonstrates that most of these students are enrolled in
      programs that are also offered at ECC, so why go there? The buildings at
      NCCC are just as crappy and depressing as they are at ECC North. The
      only difference that can be accounted for is the lower tuition at NCCC. 
      The
      cost of maintaining three campuses with three redundant sets of
      administrative staff, plus underutilized buildings at the three
      campuses, is a main factor in the difference in tuition. Start to
      consolidate programs into a single, more efficient location, and you may
      see ECC compete. 
      The
      missing piece of the puzzle is not a new building on Youngs Rd. This is
      simply gambling with the State’s money, at the expense of building up a
      campus that is accessible to the largest share of Erie County
      residents.

      • solonggone

        EB_Blue
        Suggesting that ECC consolidate to a single city campus is a silly idea on multiple levels.
        1 – Like it or not, the funding comes from the county and what do you think County residents are going to do if ECC essentially becomes Buffalo City College?  They are going to stop funding it.  
        2 – As other Real Estate experts have suggested, removing the North Campus would only further exacerbate the flight issues from the city as the TOA would have a massive parcel of land to redevelop.  
        Say the new homeless shelter being propsed next to First Niagara becomes problematic…you don’t think Amherst is going to pitch a World Class banking campus at the ECC site?  Replace any large business in Buffalo with First Niagara by the way because all would be getting the same pitch.
        If it does not work out to relocate a business there…several thousand residents could move right into the Williamsville Central School district just east of the Village.  
        Either would happen and both would be at a direct blow to the COB.

        • EB_Blue

          solonggone EB_Blue This issue isn’t about consolidation, but about which campus to expand.

        • EB_Blue

          But yes, consolidating the health sciences programs into one campus would make a lot of sense.

        • solonggone

          EB_Blue 
          If you really think consolidating ECC into one campus makes sense…it’s obvious you have a narrow perspective.  That’s a shame.

        • EB_Blue

          solonggone EB_Blue I didn’t say that. I think making the City Campus the flagship of the three-campus system makes sense.

        • solonggone

          EB_Blue
          I think the opposit.  My opinion is based on a personal projection of a couple of things.  They are:Amherst and the areas surrounding the North Campus are going to grow and I am looking at this build over the next 50 years.I think the focus on 4 year degrees is going to decline in the next decade or so.  The costs are just too prohibitive and I don’t see this reversing.
          Because of these two things, I see the use of the North Campus only growing.  
          I would be interested in seeing some data models on enrollment in ten year segements going back to the 70s or so..

        • solonggone

          nyc lines
          You serious Clark?  Do you have access to a map?
          Proximitty to the Airport and Thurway are items that other locations do not have.  Throw in all of the other benefits of Amherst being Amherst and you would have developers wetting themselves over the parcel.

        • solonggone

          nyc lines Being close to the airport and thurway are just two of the selling points.  
          Just where do you think the 120k residents of Amherst work guy?  What about the 30k in Clarence?  You think they are living in those homes working for the post office?   Building close to the work force is desirable.
          First up would be First Niagara.  
          Sales Pitch:  Brand new location, close to your employees and we won’t allow a homeless shelter to be built next door.  Remember, they just fired the guy who was all Pro-Buffalo.
          But this is also assuming residential does not go there.   Developers have been itching to build a ‘walkable community’ in the town for a while.  It failed by UB but I am sure the businesses located in the Village of Williamsville would love a couple of thousand new customers right down the road.  
          Sales Pitch: Located in the Williamsville School district (which Forest/Mill & South are not at capacity by the way) and walking distance to the Village.  
          Keep on saying so what.  It’s amusing.  Amherst has been kicking the sh*t out of the city when given the chance and boy would they turn that parcel around.

        • solonggone

          nyc lines You obiously have no clue as to what you’re talking about when it comes to Amherst.  
          The southern section of Amherst (South of Maple) is completly developed or the lots that do exist are privatly owned, scattered and small.  
          The Northen section of Amherst, while still having plenty of land, is not close to being similar.  From infrastructure to the water table..it’s really two different towns north and south of Maple.  
          Going further, even with keeping the athletic fields, the ECC campus is 75 acres.  That’s a massive amount of land and larger than the entire Medical Campus.  
          I am sure the Amherst IDA, in concert with Benderson, Uniland or similar will come up with a nice offering for one of the larger companies in the area.  
          As for not being worried about companies fleeing the COB for Amherst…it appears that in addition to not understanding Amherst you have a similar challenge with the history of Buffalo.

        • solonggone

          nyc lines I never said the BNMC would relocate.  
          What I am saying is regardless of what happens…Amherst wins.  But what is going to happen is this building will be built and the tiny voices will go away shortly after.  
          Keep mentioning Delaware North and ignoring all of the other firms that can be pitched.  If that’s what you’re into I guess.

    • EB_Blue

      Your analysis also misses the point. The fact that more City residents commute to the North Campus than attend the City Campus is one of the main arguments for shifting programs back to the City Campus. You can’t explain why City residents would travel to the North Campus except that the North Campus offers programs that aren’t offered at the more accessible campus in downtown Buffalo. The bus-load of city kids getting dropped off at Main Street and Youngs Road are not going there because its the most convenient choice for them.

      • solonggone

        EB_Blue
        Do you have any data to back this up?  What I posted was not really an analysis but rather data.  It seems as if the conversation has been in an echochamber and data has been light…so I wanted to put that out there.  
        You did not comment so I am going to ask a specific question as I am enjoying our dialog here.
        Do you consider the COB to be the same from all locations?  Did you view Figure 4.12 – North Campus Students’ Residences Density Map?
        A student in University Heights is not the same as a Student who lives in South Buffalo, North Buffalo or the First Ward.  
        To lump all of the COB students together when there are parts of the city that that Amherst campus is closer…is disingenuous at best.

        • EB_Blue

          solonggone EB_Blue A student in University Heights has more abundant public transit options to get to City Campus than to North Campus. Traffic on Main Street in the City is better, too, if going by car.

        • solonggone

          EB_Blue
          So how many of the students use public transportation?  People seem to talk about that a lot but I have yet to see data on it.  I like data.  
          I don’t like the fact that people are grouping all city residents together regrarding geography or grouping all as needing public transportation.  
          One item people are also not talking about are the Williamsville Tolls.  There has been a good amount of chatter off that and I do think it’s going to happen.  When it does, ECC North is going to be very easily accessed by the thruway system.
          Remember, this is about the NEXT 50 years.  Not today and not what happened 50 years ago.

        • EB_Blue

          solonggone EB_Blue The study didn’t ask that basic question. It’s questionable whether ECC knows how many of its students depend upon public transportation. That is indeed one question that should be answered before $30 million is thrown out the window. It is known, however, that 30% of Buffalo households do not have access to a car.

        • solonggone

          EB_Blue
          I agree that more data should be collected but it appears as if both sides ‘have enough’ for them to go public so sadly I doubt it will happen.

        • Blinky

          EB_Blue With a tiny bit of effort, you could find out how many parking permits are issued at each campus (although since there is a lack of college owned parking for city campus, that campus would be underestimated)..

  • west156th

    Former Buffalonian looking from the outside in. I’m glad that Joel Giambra promised a lawsuit regarding the plans to extend the North Campus in Amherst. I recall growing up in Buffalo when there was a debate (Eire County legislature) about locating a “Dome” stadium for the Bills, at a downtown site called the “Crossroads” vs the sites in Orchard Park or Hamburg. The location of the stadium in “no mans land” Orchard Park was the beginning of the death knell for downtown Buffalo, that was piggy-back on by locating the SUNY campus in Amherst, instead of expnading to a downtown location. Can you imagine what downtown Buffalo would have looked like if both of those projects were placed where they should have been. Both were located without any foresight as to what a downtown Buffalo location would do for the metro Buffalo. Seems like history is repeating itself with the issue of the Amherst ECC campus.
    One would have thought (I) would have thought that the powers that be in the city, county, state  had learned from mistakes in the past. Seems like that is not the case. I remember when downtown Buffalo was just that, a bustling, thriving area for the all the people of Western New to visit, shop and work. Please don’t make another (common sense) mistake…….
    .

  • Blinky

    As a city of Buffalo resident, I agree with Mr. Biniszkiewicz below.   It sure seems the Giambra followers are actually anti-city.  I wonder why? I can understand Giambra’s position given his politics and affiliations but not the young naïve city people blindly following his long ago lost crusade. There is no doubt that if the developers descend upon the ECC North Campus like greedy vultures if that land ever goes up for sale.  More offices in Amherst, less for Buffalo.  More corporate HQs in Amherst, less for Buffalo. More Geicos for Amherst, less for Buffalo  Obviously a case of nickel wise and dollar foolish, biting off their noses to spite their faces because of their all-encompassing hatred for suburbanites.

    • EB_Blue

      Blinky The ECC North Campus site is big by city standards, but not by suburban (sprawl) standards. The land area of the campus is no greater than the Wehrle Youngs Office Park (across Wehlre Drive from the North Campus). On the theoretical assumption that an office park were developed at the site, it would be a fair trade if it meant bringing the educational opportunities of ECC closer to where City residents could access it.

    • EB_Blue

      Blinky Besides, this issue is not about consolidation, but about which campus to expand. The new building belongs in Buffalo, where both the need and return on investment is the greatest.

      • Blinky

        EB_Blue I haven’t read anything about the North campus expanding beyond it’s boundaries.  The proposed development is on campus in an area not utilized for sports.  I think there will be a Frankenstein mob scene against Giambra and the politicians by the Williamsville villagers if you ever try to take away the green space for their children. But that’s not going to happen.  Why do you keep going on an on ad infinitum when you should know this is a done deal supported by Cuomo, Polencarz and pretty much all elected officials outside of the city of Buffalo?

        • EB_Blue

          Because politicians can change their mind. As far as I can tell, there is no wellspring of grassroots support for a new facility at ECC North. It’s being driven by a slim majority of the college’s Board of Trustees. They’re obsessed with ending the debate about consolidation, and so they propose building a new facility at ECC North in spite of a very weak case for its need and in spite of all the evidence that the region would benefit more from it being located downtown.

        • Blinky

          EB_Blue Really, a slim majority of the ECC BOT?  Which trustees are supporting locating the facility downtown? As far as I’ve read or heard from reputable sources, the debate about consolidation went down with Giambra long ago. Can you name one elected official outside the city of Buffalo who supports consolidation of the three campuses?

        • EB_Blue

          Blinky EB_Blue Again, it’s not about consolidation, but about whether it’s appropriate to construct a new academic facility at the North Campus as opposed to the City Campus. There are indeed voices on the ECC Board of Trustees that have been opposed to this decision.

        • Blinky

          One last try.  Can you name those trustees.  You brought up consolidation as if were still an option.  Again can you name one elected official outside of Buffalo who supports consolidation (or the construction of the new facility in downtown Buffalo for that matter)?

        • solonggone

          Blinky I would also like to know of any voices outside of the COB.  I asked google and got nothing.
          Care to share EB_Blue?

        • EB_Blue

          BlinkyErnestine Green and Hormoz Monsouri have both been vocal against the North Campus expansion. There’s been some turnover at the Board of Trustees, but I understand some of the new members are skeptical as well.

        • EB_Blue

          solonggone Blinky Yes, I hear Kevin Rudd, the prime minister of Australia, is in favor of growing the downtown campus.

        • Blinky

          EB_Blue  Really?  Ernestine Green is against the projected new North Campus development? Any documented proof of that?  Monsouri is not longer on the BOT.  You need to back your claim on that count with something substantial as welll.    Which new members of the BOT are skeptical?  Name names otherwise you are just foolishly rumor mongering.

        • EB_Blue

          Blinky EB_Blue Why is it important for a politician from Marilla to be for or against a building in Amherst? Why would they care? It doesn’t matter to their constituents. And since when does it not matter if nearly every politician in Buffalo is in favor of growing the City Campus? When do politicians in Buffalo ever agree on any issue, unless the common sense behind it is overwhelming?

        • EB_Blue

          Blinky EB_Blue Yes, Ernestine was featured on the cover of USA Today for her brave stance. Every journalist in the world attends ECC’s  Board of Trustees meetings. Folks from Gasport to Beijing are interested in what a community college board member thinks about where to build a new classroom building. Look it up. She’s literally quoted in every issue every published of The Economist.

        • EB_Blue

          Blinky EB_Blue Thanks for your wish of good luck!

        • Michael DiPasquale

          Blinky EB_Blue 
          All bets are off if there’s a lawsuit.

        • Blinky

          EB_Blue Minutes are taken and votes are recorded in BOT minutes. If any board member wants to take a courageous or any kind of public stance, they can request that their statement be recorded in the minutes.

    • TominBuff

      Blinky 
      I don’t agree with that at all. There are many such as National Fuel and Geico that wouldn’t accept the city unless they got zero taxes, free parking and a parade (sarcasm).
      Buffalo is doing a better job competing with the suburbs as evidenced by the Life Sciences Campus…and that’s what this is really about…putting students closer to potential jobs at nursing homes, childrens hospital, buffalo general and the other tenants of the medical campus. This is about the best place for education and the best place students can get jobs to pay for that education.
      As far as 3 campus, its stupid. Most ECC students commute with a car to the campus. With access to a car ECC is in direct competition with NCC and GCC, as well as, the other local colleges. Infact, whenever courses were closed out at ECC I took them at NCC or GCC and transferred them (particularly if they were summer courses). My opinion is a true regional community campus that does just that…coordinates with NCC and GCC…and eliminates the North Campus.
      Buffalo needs to take a clue from Rochester…Buffalo needs to develop a lot more urban residential apartments that are on par in price and quality with the suburbs…and Buffalo needs to develop more urban alternatives to suburban office parks.

      • solonggone

        TominBuff Blinky
        The life sciences campus is a great development but I think it’s silly to use that as an example of ‘competing’ with the burbs.  Can you show me any project in the burbs that collected over $300 million in funding from state, federal, philanthropic and industry sources?  
        Please don’t try to use IDA tax breaks either.  Those are not the same.

        • saltecks

          solonggone TominBuff Blinky How much did the North Campus cost?

        • saltecks

          solonggone TominBuff Blinky SUNYaB North Campus.

      • Blinky

        TominBuff The Life Sciences Campus or whatever you want to call it is getting massive public funding that is politically coordinated so it has that advantage in attracting more investment. For sure, lots of people drive cars and prefer to use them over public transportation. And aside from a small, dedicated group of urban pioneers (props for them!), most suburbanites are not going to opt for the city.  It’s simply too ingrained in their cultural upbringing and practices — and economics tides in, too.   Maybe if gas prices really skyrocket, that will change.  But last I noticed, the US is quite ready to fight wars to avoid that scenario.

        • whateverr

          Blinky
          “the US is quite ready to fight wars to avoid that scenario”

          Ready for wars, perhaps/debatable, but Persian Gulf imports are now under 10% of U.S. oil use (22% of the 45% we import) and falling.
          http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/energy_in_brief/foreign_oil_dependence.cfm

          U.S. domestic production is on a long term upswing, along with other sources in North America & other parts of the western hemisphere.
          The Obama administration’s energy department predicts under-$5/gallon prices on gasoline for as far out a time interval as they look (27 years out, through 2040).  http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/aeo/er/pdf/0383er(2013).pdf –
          “Real prices (in 2011 dollars) for motor gasoline and diesel delivered to the transportation sector in the AEO2013 Reference case increase from $3.45 and $3.58 per gallon, respectively, in 2011 to $4.32 and $4.94 per gallon in 2040.”

          So if anyone is still hoping for $10/gallon prices in today’s dollars, there might be a very long many-decade wait for that if the federal govt’s price projections are accurate.

  • TominBuff

    Lets put alittle perspective (my perspective) here because people are all over the map in their opinions and comments.
    -there will never be cheap oil again even if the US becomes energy independent. The US and Canada will sell oil on the world market at world prices rather than let americans drive on $2 or $3 gas.
    -Chippewa,  Larkin District, Canalside and Life Sciences Campus (plus Allentown Art Festival, Taste of Buffalo, etc) all prove that people from the suburbs will come to Buffalo is they feel safe, if its convenient and if they are not harassed with nuisance parking tickets and potholes.
    -The North Campus is also a temporary phenomenon built at 2x our population and when mass transit was replaced by cars. If and when Light Rail ever goes to the airport and UB Amherst then it will be the North Campus that is disconnected rather than the City Campus. This will eventually happen.
    -next we must look at where the jobs are being created and right now…they are in the medical sciences…prompting this building. Its madness to fail to take advantage of those internships and jobs by continuing to invest in the North Campus.
    -Last point…I can understand a southtowns campus. The city and its northern suburbs are more densely populated than southern Erie County. Plus the distance between ECC and the next community college in the southern tier is much more significant than between ECC and GCC or NCC. It would be to the benefit of Erie, Genessee and Niagara Counties to cooperate rather than for Erie County to maintain 3 campus.
    As far as federal and state monies…well…that’s a problem isn’t it. Suburbs do things cheaper and more honestly and with less politics. Urban politics are will with graft and patronage and politics. The main logic supporting the city is its the geographical center that can serve all taxpaying citizens.
    Erie County and Buffalo must find a way to get urban job centers created and residential apartments that rival the suburbs in cost and convenience built or people will continue to choose the suburbs.

    • solonggone

      TominBuff 
      You’re making some pretty strong assumptions.  I get the whole ‘Buffalo is gonna rise again’ banter.  It’s nice and makes people feel warm like a good bourbon.  That said, Amherst is not going to die.  No matter how much people want it to happen.  
      If there ever comes a day where Buffalo rebounds…Amherst is going to resemble parts of Toronto or San Diego…essentially becoming small cities attached to a larger one.  
      If Buffalo makes a gain, Amherst is going to grow in step.  Additionally, Amherst will continue to grow at Buffalos expense.  The only variable is what Buffalo does.  Why people don’t realize this is beyond me.

      • TominBuff

        solonggone TominBuff 
        I agree to a point, If you went back to 1960s when Tonawanda was where Amherst is today then people would have been saying Tonawanda would grow as you predict. Yet Tonawanda is aging…its retail is leaving…its population is dropping and its job growth is closer to other aging suburbs like Kenmore.
        Amherst will grow but only to a point then remain stable because of UBs presence but unless Buffalo experiences some population and job growth…and Erie County (and all the municipalities) adopts some smart growth principles…this is the more likely scenario:
        Aging suburbs will continue its outmigration…Amherst will see an exodus east to Lancaster and north to Wheatfield. as Tonawanda saw an outmigration to North Tonawanda and Amherst and Wheatfield. Erie County with population living in suburbs close the Erie County Border will choose a small additional commute puts them in Niagara County or Genessee County with the benefit of lower taxes, less regulation and FEWER UNEDUCATED MINORITIES, less corruption, less patronage, smaller unions At which point Erie County will lose control over its domain much as Buffalo did as population left its municipal borders.
        You see…its the age group demographic of teens through 30s and young families…that determine jobs and retail…because they have the highest disposable incomes. Young families avoid the city because the public schools so its doubtful they will come back to the city unless Buffalo implements school choice and school vouchers to parents can have the choice of private or parochial schools. Buffalo must cater to the single, married w/o children and senior citizens…for residents. Many of them demand conveniences and services on par with the suburbs like well maintained parks, properly maintained streets and well maintained properties.

  • Seydlitz

    Good god, this is why nothing ever changes in this area. Now they’re going to sue until ECC just gives up on the whole thing, history continues to repeat.

    • Michael DiPasquale

      Seydlitz 
      You’ve got it backwards. With any luck, the ECC project as proposed will be stopped. And so will our history of doing misguided projects like building UB in Amherst.

  • Blinky

    Here’s a url from the Buffalo News about the purportedly nonexistent Amherst Medical Corridor:  http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111002/BUSINESS/310029945  “A magnet for medical care; Amherst’s health corridor is sizable and it offers the Northtowns an array of services”  by Jonathan D. Epstein.   Please note that the businesses considered are predominantly health care services establishments which have interned and employed more than a few ECC Health Science technician grads, and not so much of a concentration of medical research businesses which don’t typically employ ECC grads..

  • eastamherstbias

    I hate how there are multiple campuses of ub and ecc.

  • eastamherstbias

    Most people aren’t. How is wanting a unified campus a bad thing?

  • briancbray

    I can’t find it in the article, but why is he going to sue to stop the project other than the fact that he doesn’t like the project?

  • whateverr

    nyc lines  I’d go farther and say even if he is being paid by downtown developers, I don’t think that by itself discredits his arguments at all.

    I disagree with the substance of some of his arguments about ECC, and also feel the lawsuit will be totally lacking legal merit if he files it, but hypothetically if people are paying him to make efforts at lobbying or filing suits – that doesn’t affect really the issues either way.

    And I agree with what you said about Amherst (if he lives there or in any burb), that doesn’t affect it either.

    Just as it also doesn’t for Poloncarz who chooses to live in the city of Buffalo (according to recent news of the burglary in his home) even while he thinks the new building should be on the North campus in Amherst.

    Not everybody decides their viewpoints about public policy issues like this one by basing it on their personal likes & dislikes.  Some people do, perhaps, and some don’t.