City December 11, 2012 12:00 AM

Cities: Rather Than Patronizing Young People, Give Them What They Ask For

Cities: Rather Than Patronizing Young People, Give Them What They Ask For
This story is a repost from the excellent Cleveland base urbanism blog Rustwire .  Rustwire is one of the best blogs written today on American cities, often cutting straight to the truth that no one is talking about.  This story was written about Cleveland but, just change the city name to Buffalo and it is quite relevant to Western New York.  It deals with keeping young talent from fleeing to greener pastures and the foibles of a clueless leadership in that pursuit. The issues in Cleveland are virtually the same as in Buffalo.  

This story puts it bluntly.  As nice and great and misunderstood as Cleveland (Buffalo) is, it is not as good as it should be and is often not as good as the places that people are fleeing too.  There I said it.  Buffalo is not that great.  That is not to say it isn't a great place to be.  But, to keep youthful talent Buffalo and its leadership need to know what kind of city younger generations want and then give it to them.  Saying Buffalo is a great under rated place is not enough. Here is a hint.  More parking lots and demolition of unique places is not going to do it.  Current demographics are showing that younger generations are not looking for mom and dad's car oriented lifestyle. Sure, jobs are important but guess what? Jobs go where people want to be. People will never be attracted to Buffalo because of its abundance of great cheap parking. Read on and see what I mean - Rustwire:

Nothing makes me roll my eyes like a civic campaign aimed at attracting young people. 

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a worthy cause. It's just that 90 percent of the time, the way they are executed ranges from cluelessly patronizing to counter productive to outright embarrassing. 

In one example that really sticks in my mind the guilty party was Columbus, Ohio. Perhaps eight years ago the city got some kind of grant and they spent $30,000 to have some self-styled "Gen Y" expert come tell them how they could retain and attract young people. All I could think was why didn't they just ask they young people that live there what they want and maybe put the $30,000 toward that?

Lesser and greater crimes have been committed by cities and states across the industrial Midwest and beyond -- each one grasping for some special, elusive formula that entrances young people: drawing them in, making them stay put. And 90 percent of them are good for a few laughs at best.

The city of Cleveland -- you knew that was coming, didn't you? -- is working on a new one of these babies right now. There is a new initiative called Global Cleveland and it started out as some kind of civic effort to attract immigrants. But one of the major goals of this initiative apparently, is also to attract "boomerangers" back to Cleveland. Boomerangers, you see, are youngish, well-educated people that split for places like New York and DC. For some reason, these guys have been identified as "winnable" and Global Cleveland's working on promoting a wholesale reversal.

Now, admittedly, I don't know a ton about Global Cleveland. But what I do know about it, has prompted some reflexive eye-rolling on my part. Here's what I've heard they've been doing: hosting focus groups with actual "boomerangers," writing a blog telling prospective "boomerangers" how great Cleveland is, and they have done sort of a media campaign. See: Rust Belt Chic article in Salon.

So okay. What's wrong with that you are probably wondering? Why does that make the author -- a Cleveland young pro of the coveted variety -- want to bang her head against the nearest hard object? They are ASKING young people what they want, sort of. Blogs ARE cool -- as we all know. But as a Millennial who actually moved to Cleveland on my own free will without family attachments -- I think they are missing the mark badly.

The biggest problem for me is that this campaign seems to rely on the assumption that this blog has devoted itself to counteracting: a myth, narrative, or whatever, so well-worn, so beloved by Clevelanders. That is the myth that Cleveland is a great place to live -- better than other places even -- and that our real problem is not one of the many obvious shortcomings frequently mentioned in the national press, but a woeful and incorrect "image problem."

This is a narrative that everyone in Cleveland LOVES. This is a narrative that if you challenge -- people will insult you personally and fiercely. Challenging the notion that Cleveland is inherently superior to other places, as crazy as it may sound to those outside the rust belt, makes you sort of a political dissident here.

But I think it is wrong, convenient but wrong. I think it is favored because it requires nothing of us. It indulges our delusional vanities and nurses our wounded egos. Now, don't get me wrong, I agree that Cleveland has its charms. The art museum, the metroparks, the lake, etc. But look, all cities have assets.

The problem for Cleveland is the net package of assets and shortcomings that Cleveland represents is not compelling enough right now to attract young people, immigrants whatever, they way they are in places like San Francisco, New York, Boston.

So, this is a totally radical position for some odd reason and a bunch of people are probably going to attack me in the comments for even saying it. But why on earth doesn't Cleveland try to be more like New York, or Boston or San Francisco?

I'm serious. There is not a secret formula. The places that are succeeding, they aren't making a riddle of their methods. They are working very hard to make their environments hospitable to young people. How are they doing that? Through a whole movement called "livability."

What is livability? Well it incorporates a whole bunch of things: bustling sidewalks, community spaces. But if I had to summarize it succinctly, I would say it is the freedom to get around and lead a fulfilling life without a car. This is exactly what New York, San Francisco, Chicago, Boston and a handful of other cities that are winning the young-people-attracting game are focused on.

Jeff Speck -- author of Suburban Nation -- wrote in his recent book Walkable City:

A small number of forward-thinking cities are gobbling up the loin's share of post-teen suburbanites and empty nesters with the wherewithal to live where they want, while most midsized American cities go hungry.

He continues:

Even New York and San Francisco sometimes get things wrong, but they will continue to poach the country's best and brightest unless our other, more normal cities can learn from their successes while avoiding their mistakes.

Now, I know what you are about to say. You are about to say "but!! But!!! Cleveland doesn't have as much money as New York." Or even worse: "What works in New York won't work in Cleveland!!" To which I say, nonsense!

Young creatives crave walkable urban places. I am one of them. And believe it or not that is the major reason I moved to Cleveland. Cleveland has been blessed, by nature of its old age, with a relatively walkable built environment and even a decent transit system. But somehow Cleveland's can't recognize that this is its greatest asset. It continues suburbanizing the city -- to a greater or lesser extent -- and it embarks on a new marketing campaign to tell the world it's not nearly as bad here as everyone thinks.

Or what about when the city of Cleveland wanted to tear down a historic downtown building and replace it with a parking garage? And hundreds of young people expressed opposition? Again right there, young people who live in Cleveland were expressing their preferences very clearly: they want a dense, walkable downtown -- not a car repository for suburbanites. Again, that is the moment the city had a chance to win the hearts and loyalty of young people, but again, young people's clearly expressed preferences were outweighed by those of a favored developer.Example: If 75 young people show up at a public meeting and demand a bike lane: there -- right there is part of your answer. Cleveland's existing young people want bike lanes. But somehow, in the actual hierarchy of city priorities, 75 young people's wishes rank far, far behind those of favored developers. A young professional attraction campaign that tackled that problem: that would be a campaign I could get behind.

If Cleveland is losing young people to other cities, the correct response is to look at what is attractive about those places and emulate them to the extent that we can -- and I think we can in a big way. New York has Jeanette Sadik-Khan and pedestrian plazas. Chicago has Gabe Klein and cycle tracks. Those are the young professional attraction mechanisms in those cities -- they are city employees empowered to make real changes to the built environment. And they are killing us, while we fumble for our own solution, or deny that we have a problem.

A least, that's the way I see it, and it's painful to watch.

-A.S

DSC01272.JPG

*Images are my own of Madison Wisconsin and are not from the original story.  Madison is a delightful walkable and vibrant urban city.  


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This is a great read--thanks for posting. I couldn't agree more with your opening, and the original piece (and, yes, Cleveland is interchangeable with Buffalo in this).

Score: 7 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I don't know what Cleveland is like as I've never been there, but Buffalo at least has SOME walkable neighborhoods that appeal to young professionals or artists looking for that sort of thing... it never feels like enough. For every Elmwood Village in the city you've got areas with wide swaths of undeveloped lots and untapped potential.

Score: 7 ( 9 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

We do have some nice walkable areas, but they aren't well connected to each other. It's dicey to get between Hertel, EV, Allentown, Grant and the Marina without a car. Our major roads in the city are horrific by bicycle, and taking side streets is rough too. I'm talking oblivious drivers, potholes, crime and too few bike lanes. Too many drivers (but not all) aren't aware of their surroundings, and think they have priority over cyclists and pedestrians.

I know we are taking some steps toward being more bike-friendly, but if I was a car-averse millenial urbanite considering a move to Buffalo I'd check the city's website. The city's bike lane maps haven't been updated since 2006, and it's hard to find any recent bike lane map even if you google "bike lanes Buffalo map." In the "Our City" section of the city's website, there is no section about how to get around Buffalo, nor anything about moving to Buffalo (there's nothing official on the first page of Google either, if you search for "moving to Buffalo.")

Maybe I'm just having a cynical morning, but it seems like the city is being run as a game for politicians and their buddies, and the real changes that benefit Buffalo are coming from citizen groups and non-profits.

replied to Shoey
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Let me describe Cleveland like this ...

Take Buffalo. Double it. Now, imagine that after WWII, the influx of blacks from the South settled not on the Lower East Side, but in Allentown, migrating northward towards Delaware Park and Kenmore from there. The East Side and South Side remain blue collar and white; the West Side and North Buffalo are predominantly black.

That's Cleveland. It used to be blue collar West Side, wealthy East Side. The East Side experienced racial transition throughout the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, and was the site of some very destructive riots during the Civil Rights era.

Cleveland proper doesn't have an equivalent to Allentown, Elmwood Village or North Buffalo. Ohio City: imagine a gentrifying Broadway-Fillmore. Tremont: Allentown without Allen Street, where the restaurants, bars and galleries are scattered through the neighborhood. Waterloo: picture a cluster of art galleries and a venerable music club on East Delavan near Bailey. There's the blue ghetto of Kamm's Corners, which is Caz Park's long lost twin. East 185th: a nicer Kaisertown. Little Italy: a tiny but vibrant Italian-American enclave, but like Little Italy in Manhattan, really more of a tourist attraction.

Cleveland Heights has a few small pedestrian-oriented clusters; Coventry, Cedar-Lee, and Cedar-Fairmont. Put them together, and you might have a third of Elmwood Village. Detroit Street in Lakewood: some pedestrian-friendly areas, but pockmarked with too much post-WWII commercial.

When I lived in Cleveland, I bought my then-girlfriend, a life-long Clevelander who had never been to Buffalo, to my hometown for a week. I'll end this post with her impression:

"Buffalonians really use their neighborhoods a lot more then Clevelanders."

replied to Shoey
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Thanks for this--I have wondered about the differentiation between the two cities (never having been to Cleve). Some people slam it ("it's been bombed out, like Detroit"), others say that it is positioned between Pitts and Bflo in terms of revitalization.

I think Cleve has also lost more of its Fortune 500 over the past decade, which is changing the landscape of that city.

replied to Dan
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> I have wondered about the differentiation between the two cities (never having been to Cleve). Some people slam it ("it's been bombed out, like Detroit"), others say that it is positioned between Pitts and Bflo in terms of revitalization.

You're welcome!

Another way to look at it:

The East Side of the City of Cleveland is the most "Detroitish" part of town, with some large expanses of urban prairie. There's some bright spots like University Circle, the Cleveland Clinic area, and holdout neighborhoods on the edge like North Collinwood and Mill Creek; like Buffalo's Kensington in the late 1980s.

The West Side closely resembles Lovejoy, Kaisertown, and South Buffalo; maybe Broadway-Fillmore in the 1980s with a touch of Allentown and West Village for the Ohio City area.

East suburban Cleveland is generally very well off, liberal, and diverse; it's where the area's old money is centered. The Chagrin Valley and southern Lake County area is flat-out over-the-top RICH in a way that is unmatched by anything in Buffalo or its suburbs. We're talking polo club (http://www.clevelandpolo.com/) and fox hunting (http://www.thecvhunt.org/) rich. Suburbs along the lake (Mentor, Willowick, etc) are more middle class, a mix of white and blue collar. Geauga County - exurban sprawl, uniformly upper middle class.

West suburban Cleveland is more lower-middle to middle class, with new money further out in Westlake, Brunswick, etc. Strongly white ethnic, with a more "Buffalonian" feel than the East Side. The suburbs along the lake to the west (Rocky River, Bay Village, etc) are generally affluent.

Gay men generally live in suburban Lakewood (west). Lesbians gravitate to Cleveland Heights (east). The region's very large (80K+) Jewish community is centered on Beachwood (east); like Amherst, it's the one suburb everybody loves to hate. Parma (west) is their Cheektowaga. very Polish, blue-collar, and the butt of a lot of jokes, but quite a bit nicer than Buffalo's neighbor to the East.

TL/DR:

Cleveland's downtown > Buffalo's downtown
Buffalo's neighborhoods > Cleveland's neighborhoods
Cleveland's suburbs >>> Buffalo's suburbs

replied to Travelrrr
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The Buffalo old money never left the city, unlike Cleveland's, which deserted it. In Buffalo (and Pittsburgh), the suburbs and the country were for second homes...not for primary residence, with some exceptions. By the way, there is still polo in Buffalo, as well as the hunt.

replied to Dan
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> The Buffalo old money never left the city, unlike Cleveland's, which deserted it.

Much different socio-geographic factors at work in Cleveland.

* Wealthy neighborhoods along Euclid Avenue faced growing intrusion by commercial and industrial uses. Delaware Avenue and its neighboring blocks didn't suffer the same fate. Imagine warehouses, commercial bakeries and machine shops along Linwood and Elmwood.

* Development in Cleveland spilled over its city limits years earlier than in Buffalo. Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights were being developed around the same time as North Buffalo and Central Park. Snyder and Eggertsville also experienced some growth during that tinme, but development came to a halt after the housing crash of 1927.

* The black population in Cleveland migrated towards the city's middle and upper income neighborhoods on the East Side, not towards more modest lower/middle income areas as in Buffalo.

* Areas at the bottom of the beach ridge that runs a few miles to the south of the Lake Erie shoreline suffered from bad air pollution. Those that could afford it moved to areas above the ridge, which today is Cleveland/Shaker/University Heights, South Euclid, Beachwood, Gates Mills, Pepper Pike, etc.

* There is still old money (Hannas, etc) in Bratenahl, a very wealthy enclave on the Lake Erie shore about three miles east of downtown Cleveland. Bratenahl is its own city, and is completely surrounded by some very rough neighborhoods in Cleveland.

replied to EricOak
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Euclid Ave was once even grander than our own Delaware Ave. It was known around the world. Today, only a handful of the old mansions are left, and it's much more a commercial street. IT's very sad, but we are lucky that we still have much of our intact.

replied to Dan
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I would hate to compare Cleveland to Buffalo. Cleveland has one weird vibe to it, can’t explain it I’ve lived there. Buffalo is starting to get it. They just have to get over all the whining about taxes, union wages, and parking for causing all the problems holding the city back. People are not flocking to NYC, Boston, San Francisco, or Toronto for their low wages and low cost of living? So Buffalo Stop knocking down the city center for more cheap parking or what some mega box developer says you need or you will end up like Cleveland.

Score: 9 ( 19 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

No, but they are flocking to areas like Austin, Raleigh, and Atlanta for lower taxes and affordable housing. Oh, and jobs, which business owners create fewer of when there are more tax burdens on them.

replied to bung
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Actually the two fastest growing cities in the United States are New York and Los Angeles, seems like taxes have little to do with growth and even less to do with "job creation". We should have learned that lesson during the eight years of job losses that coincided with the Bush tax cuts. The job creators in this county are consumers, enlarge the middle class by demanding fair wages and watch the economy expand.

replied to GinghamQuaker
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You're wrong. http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2012/04/18/americas-fastest-growing-cities/. If ny and la are growing, it's because they are global magnets with different dynamics going on than the rest of the country. Exceptions not rules. Numbers don't lie.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Some people don't like numbers. It kills their opinions.

Buffalo is so far down the list that a comparison to places like NY and LA is downright silly.

Notice how Steel injected Madison Wisconsin? That's perspective. I would go as far to say that a comparison to places like Charlotte is not even realistice. They have 20 years of growth.


The biggest challenge for Buffalo, as it relates to this conversation, is not mass transit. It's not civic ammeneties. It's housing stock. In order to create walkable neighborhoods you need 1st level retail/commercial on main corridors. Stacked on this retail is dense housing. That's the 1-2 punch if you ask me.

Now take the hatred for suburban folks and set it to the side. The challenge with the city is they built out rather than up...inside of the city.

Looking at the picture at the bottom of the post...that is what Niagara Street should look like from City Hall to Porter Ave. Going west from Niagara St to the river should be lined with mid-rise housing. That's what should have happened.

What actually happened was suburban style homes (in the city) with low density new builds along the main corridor. Mix in empty existing mid-rises and you have a recipe for failure.

replied to Tim
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look at my "numbers" in the link below, apology accepted.

replied to longgone
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Confirming what I speculated yesterday -
the "growth" in NYC is very small and due to its net positive birth/death rate outpacing its net negative migration to/from other places.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/census/popcur.shtml
"The most recent estimates from the Census Bureau indicate the following:
a) Positive natural increase – more births than deaths added more than 84,000 persons to New York City's population between April of 2010 and July of 2011.
b) An overall net migration loss of 14,300 persons, the result of a negative net domestic migration loss of 74,400 persons, largely offset by a gain of 60,100 persons through net international migration. While immigration continues to support the city's population, the net loss through domestic migration is below levels seen in most of the last decade.
While estimates of net migration are difficult to calculate for the last decade because of issues surrounding the accuracy of the 2010 Census count, it appears that is the annual net migration losses in the most recent Census Bureau estimate are lower than in the earlier years of the last decade. …"


And the Census estimates that NYC had even larger losses in net migration in the 2000-2010 decade (last sentence in excerpt above).

So, NYC's population "gain" (which as a % is very small, under 3% total over 10 years) is indeed due to its number of births being high enough to overcome its _losses_ in migration.
In other words, more people are leaving NYC than moving in, although not by as many as the birth/death difference.
(it's the NYC gov website saying it, not me - no shooting the messenger, lol)

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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The link you posted ranks growth according to "projections" of economic and population gain and "factors in" median income and unemployment.
The fastest growing cities in the US are indeed New York and Los Angeles. http://www.citymayors.com/gratis/uscities_growth.html

replied to Tim
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BRL, that link you provided shows raw numbers, not "fastest" rates of growth.

If you'd said most growing instead of fastest growing it would be true. But it isn't about the rate.

In other words, the way that table looks at it would be like someone trying to say the U.S. economy is doing better than Canada's based on some raw number of jobs (or raw number of dollars, etc.) while ignoring that the US is so much larger than Canada.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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The link I posted from City Mayors Statistics is clearly titled "The Fastest Growing US Cities" ranked 1-100. LA is #1 and NY is #2. I think you are splitting hairs to argue "most growing" is more approprate but I will accept that. My point was that taxes have little to do with the success or failure of our cities.

replied to whatever
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BRL, despite their title, I don't think it's hair splitting for this BR discussion because as my previous link showed, NYC's growth figures are so low in % (under 3% over 10 years) that the raw number increase is traced to the birthrate of its 8M people there - not by increasing adults who are choosing where to live.

Among adults migrating among places, NYC has actually in recent years been losing some on a net basis as that link described, and this other one shows too
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2011/10/28-young-adults-frey
At the above in tables under the maps, it shows that among young adults 25-34 the NYC population dropped by 47,000 from 2005-'07 (before Recession start) and again by losing another 22,000 more in 2008-'10 (after Recession start).
NYC and LA both declined among 25-34 year olds during both intervals.
Cities which gained among 25-34 year olds during both intervals include Dallas, Houston, and Portland.

On your point about tax policy - well, I don't think many people would deny that it's one big factor in how much growth/decline happens in jobs & population. Even lefties such as Spitzer and Cuomo have said they think it's one big factor.
Of course there's other factors too including other laws & regulations, and climate/weather, natural geography & resources, historic presence of certain industries (finance in NYC, tech in Silicon Valley, etc.), and others.
But if you want to argue that tax policy isn't one major factor involved at all, you're free to.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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I accepted your "most growing" point, my point is that most people (except maybe the 1% and other greedy types) don't let taxes get in the way of their dreams and aspirations. People move to places they believe will meet their needs and desires, taxes are unlikely to be a factor for the vast majority of us.

replied to whatever
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BRL>"taxes are unlikely to be a factor for the vast majority of us"

Ok, and 'the vast majority of us' never hire & employ even one full-time employee either. Not to mention multiple employees. People either work for the govt (which as a practical matter can employ only some) or they depend on some often-'greedy' employer.

If we compare recent decades of total job growth in say Tennessee, N. Carolina, New Hampshire, Georgia, etc - all states with very different govt policies than NYS - to that of metro areas in WNY or Upstate NY … it's a pretty stark difference. The question isn't whether tax policy is the only major factor in that (there's also others like those I mentioned before - weather, laws/regulations, etc), but is it one major factor?

Not a small potion of the 99% will include their perceived career opportunities as one major factor among several when choosing where to move.

So while tax policy might not be a direct factor for most people, not all factors are direct.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Even just the number of births to people who already live there in a huge megacity of 8M people like NYC or 3M people like LA can make raw growth counts look much larger than what could possibly happen in the vast majority of cities which have a few hundred thousand people or around 1M, etc.

That's another reason why percentages (rates) are usually compared.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Huh? BRL, c'mon, this claim isn't even close to true - not even by blog comment standards.
BRL>"the two fastest growing cities in the United States are New York and Los Angeles"

Those are the two largest, but nowhere near the two "fastest growing".
Not even close.

Both the NYC and LA grew by less than 1% in the 2011 estimate (since 2010), 0.85% and 0.71%, while many dozens of cities grew by more than triple or quadruple those rates - including Austin (+3.8%), Denver (+3.3%), Raleigh (+3.1%), Tampa, Atlanta, Charlotte, San Antonio, Miami, Arlington TX, Houston, Boise, Dallas, Oklahoma City, Orlando, … all of those over 2%.
Can click here for a nice table for the above, can order it by % change.

Your claim is also way, way off in the Census counts for 2000-2010.
NYC and LA metros each grew by under 3% that decade.
http://rocdocs.democratandchronicle.com/database/population-us-cities
Many cities grew far faster, including for just a few examples ...
Houston 7%, Phoenix 9%, San Antonio 16%, Columbus 11%, Miami 10%, Nashville 11%, and - get this - Raleigh 46%.
That isn't missing a decimal. The city of Raleigh NC grew from 276,000 residents in 2000 to over 403,000 in 2010. That's 46.3%, while NYC was growing by 2.1% and LA by 2.6%.

And that's after massive growth the previous decades too. Table in right hand column here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleigh,_North_Carolina#Demographics
"1980 150,255 22.3%
1990 212,092 41.2%
2000 276,093 30.2%
2010 403,892 46.3%
Est. 2011 416,468 3.1%"

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Don't forget that in cities such as Raleigh and others there is a certain amount of annexation of neighboring towns that contributes to population growth. So comparing %'s isn't always the best way to go either. Raleigh also has more available land for growth so it absorbs urban and suburban growth while new york is absorbing exclusively urban growth as its boundaries are fixed. No denying that a place like Raleigh has momentum for growth but we can't get crazy comparing numbers because numbers alone are not pure facts any way you look at them.


replied to whatever
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Their county grew in population by similar %'s in recent decades - bounds of county haven't changed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_County,_North_Carolina#Demographics
"1980 301,327 31.9%
1990 423,380 40.5%
2000 627,846 48.3%
2010 900,993 43.5%"

It's a good point in general to keep in mind, but during 46% city growth 2000-2010 (while its county population grew by 43.5%) the annexed parts look pretty small.

medium green shaded parts in this map

replied to nyc
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> Austin, Raleigh, and Atlanta for lower taxes and affordable housing.

I lived in Austin. It isn't that affordable, unless you're far from downtown, in sprawly areas that more closely resembled suburban Dallas. Sure, Obama signs might be plentiful, but it's still Texas-style suburbia, and it's often very hard on the eyes.

Texas has no state income tax. Property taxes are very high, though; not quite Buffalo/WNY high, but far from the bargain one might expect.

replied to GinghamQuaker
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The Toronto Area (GTA) has one of the fastest growing populations in North America. More than half of those residents were born outside of Canada. It’s the rich diversity makes Toronto one of the most multicultural cities in the world. It also makes it an exciting place to work and live. Not cheap parking and low cost of living. The people moving in are also the job creators. Businesses look at quality of life, age, and education demographics when choosing an area to set up shop. The young educated are not choosing to live in an urban area by the cost of parking or taxes.

replied to GinghamQuaker
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A lot of the southern city growth is weather related because it’s nice and warm. Go south the wages are generally not as good the schools are awful outside major cities. The better schools are in the cities where the northerners have moved to. Housing and taxes are lower is some cases but, you end up paying in other ways. Go to Georgia your auto registration is based on the value of your car you could be paying $100s of dollars a year registration. Move to Florida or any other southern coastal area and you’ll pay $1000 per year for hurricane insurance or $2000 a year if you live in the trailer park. That’s why a lot of people don’t get hurricane insurance. That’s why they go crying to the federal government every time there house gets washed out. So the high tax paying northern states end up paying to bail them out. To get political now the more southern republican a state is, the more government welfare it receives.

replied to GinghamQuaker
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But,I would have to admit University Circle, Little Italy, has really cleaned up since I lived there in the mid. `80s. Even Coventry Ave., where we used to skate and drink quarts of Genny before the Rocky Horror Picture show back in the day. Even today city center is still a mess, a sea of mostly closed parking ramps unless a game is going on. The drivers are still clueless, as for cycling you might as well cycle down the 33 in the wrong direction you would have about the same chance of survival.

replied to bung
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"Sure, jobs are important but guess what? Jobs go where people want to be"

Steel: Why don't you test your theory and move to Buffalo and see if your firm packs up and follows you here?

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I think that was a stupid statement on Steel's part since obviously businesses are located where they are for a myriad of reasons other than just having access to a large employable population.

Also, people want to be where the jobs/ certain industries are, so the argument is circular. I mean why else would you move to small/midsized cities in the South/South West? Certainly not for the culture.

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You are absolutely right. The issue of where jobs are is very complex. But New York State has a very high cost structure. That is a fact and Buffalo is not in control of that and won't be as long as NYC is part of the state. That in mind Buffalo needs to compete on a plain that it can control - that being its physical form. Turning the city into a sprawl wasteland will just add another burden on the negative of high cost. The southwest has a low cost profile for the time being but that is not going to last. Wait until you see what happens to these cities when the additional costs of aging infrastructure and limited resources start to make an impact. They won't last long.

replied to No_Illusions
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Steel> That in mind Buffalo needs to compete on a plain that it can control - that being its physical form.

This. Buffalo and Pittsburgh, and to a much more limited extent Cleveland, are perhaps the only cities in the United States that offer the walkable, vibrant urban living experience that so many now crave, at a price that is still accessible. In the rest of the country, housing in neighborhoods like Allentown, Elmwood Village and North Buffalo -- hell, even Kenmore -- is now mostly priced beyond the range of what the middle class can afford.

Even in otherwise affordable metropolitan areas, housing near dense, walkable neighborhoods is priced beyond the range of affordability by those making 80%-120% of the median household income for the region. Atlanta is cheap ... outside of the Perimeter. Austin is cheap ... north of Research, south of Ben White, and nowhere near the Mopac. Detroit is dirt cheap ... but not anywhere within walking distance to downtown Royal Oak, Birmingham, or the few other suburban centers with village-like main streets.

replied to STEEL
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Amen to that.

I travel around the country, and I often find myself in the very cities that are described as "best places for young people" or "to start a business" or whatever. Usually, that means Denver, Seattle, Portland, Richmond, Austin, Dallas/Houston, Charlotte, and so on.

When I go there, I usually take a day or so to explore the city and what's what. Every place has their own version of the Artvoice, so I check that out for things to do and places to see.

Invariably, the city will have just one Actor's Equity theater, and then at most two or three other theaters. The big museum in town will be new and designed by a starchitect, but is empty of anything worth seeing. The really cool hipster area that the hotel concierge tells me I must check out is about four blocks long, and has two or three funky boutiques, a brewpub or two, and few converted warehouses. (To be honest, only Portland - both of them -- actually have a fairly large hipster areas and a decent number of cool bars and restaurants).

So why are they thriving and Buffalo is not? Jobs for young people. Coming out of college with six figure debt really leave little room to select a city based on walkability. You need a job. And even if you don't have one, your chances of getting a job in any number of fields is better in these cities than Buffalo.

These cities attract young people IN SPITE of a lack of liveability. Humans are amazingly adapable, and even the most diehard urbanist will live in the suburbs of some tacky city if it's the only job he can find. You will also notice that all these cities are far more expensive to live in than Buffalo.

We need to develop the types of businesses that hire young people. It has little to do with taxes or cost of living, as these cities are located in both high tax and low tax environments, and most are more expensive than Buffalo.

replied to Dan
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young people who live in Cleveland were expressing their preferences very clearly: they want a dense, walkable downtown -- not a car repository for suburbanites.

amen.

young buffalonians are making themselves heard, too: don't expand ecc north, bring the health sciences program downtown.

don't demolish trico; put it back to work. like, maybe hosting a health science program for ecc, amongst other things.

and they're right. so, buffalonians under 40: i'll put the question to you directly. do you feel like you're being heard or being patronized?

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Being heard? No way. I can't tell you how many times I've contacted city council members and haven't heard a response back from them, period. The mayor's outreach to gen-y-ers is also little to non-existent. increased transit fares, decreased transit times, no work at all done on extending light rail, and no initiative made to even encourage usage of public transport. Sitting in your car for 2-3 hours a day is a depressing thought just to do errands and go home. Youth care more about the environment than other generations and few in Buffalo recognize that.

replied to grad94
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"Sitting in your car for 2-3 hours a day is a depressing thought just to do errands and go home."

I'm confused at this statement, are you suggesting it's faster to run errands by public transit? What's depressing is the thought of waiting around for public transportation to take me somewhat close to my destination and then repeating that to get home. I know I'll get downvoted like crazy but one of the main advantages of a city like ours is that I can live the urban lifestyle AND afford a decent car without making over 6 figures.

Making Buffalo more walkable/bikeable is great, I'd love that. However let's not kid ourselves and blame cars for this. Buffalo would be more walkable if there were more companies hiring in the city proper, not for the lack of bike lanes necessarily.

replied to P2bbuffalonian
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Saying that because the public transport system that we have created is crappy proves that public transportation has to be crappy makes no sense. If cities like Buffalo were more compactly built with a very good transit system much of your daily routine could be handled without any kind of vehicle at all. I lived in Boston and Chicago for many years without a car. It was rarely a burden and most often a great benefit. The perception that car ownership is a necessity is just something we tell ourselves to make it seem logical that we do so many stupid things to accommodate them.

replied to brownteeth
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I won't argue that if our public transpo were better, more efficient and encompassing that I still wouldn't use it, of course I would. What I am saying is that until there is more employment opportunities in the city along with amenities like better retail and grocery options, most of us will still need a car to take care of daily business.

I don't think we should accomodate cars/parking more than any other city our size does, but I think its naive to think we'll ever be in the ranks of NYC, Chicago, Toronto, etc when it comes to public transpo.

replied to STEEL
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Yes, in several cities I've lived, it was faster to use public transport. Obviously I'm not referencing the efficiency of Buffalo because of decreased bus times and increased fairs. While the whole six-figure salary and car may be the ideal for you, statistics show Gen-Yers are looking for an increased quality of life via a job that makes them happy - even if that means taking a low salary. There are also studies that show that the Home-Car-Work-Car-Home commute leads to cases of depression and in many cases asocial behavior. I would ride a bus with people over driving by myself any day, even if it meant an extra 20 minutes. Learning to co-exist and sit with people who arent your family, friends, or co-workers for a couple hours a day has numerous benefits for your social health. However, this attitude is the minority since the majority Americans prefer living within their comfort zone of having constant individual choice, even if that means damaging the environment and paying more for gas. But the country will have to adapt to when Gen Y gets older and that day will come

replied to brownteeth
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I don't disagree with you and personally have no problem co-existing in public settings with anyone. For me, I'm a very busy guy with a lot on my plate on any given day. Even if we had a transit system as good as a major city I'd still likely prefer my car simply because I'm not limited to where or when I want to go somewhere.

Having more decent employment options will draw people to work in the city but if Buffalo had more amenities in the city/downtown like clothing retailers, groceries and other daily essentials it will help attract and retain people in general to live in the city. The fact remains that I cannot buy clothes, electronics, most housewares, or even a weeks worth of decent groceries without driving to a location that has enough of those goods. I certainly do not have time to wait for a bus to take care of those needs.

replied to P2bbuffalonian
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You fail to realize that lack of shopping in the city correlates to driving that is convenient and cheap. There is not law of the universe that says driving yourself around at will has to be easy and cheap. There is no converse law that says public transit needs to be difficult and slow. We have subjugated everything to easy driving. We have thrown away most of the city and paved over vast areas of land for cars. You can't buy shirts in the city because it is easy to drive on gigantic highways plowed through city neighborhoods and parks and then can park free - except it is not really free. We pay big through hidden subsidies for that 'free' parking. As long as WNY loves its easy driving-at-will the city will continue to degrade and it will be looked at as a second rate place by the kind of people who do the moving and shaking in this country. There are cities that recognize urbanism as a powerful growth tool. That is a trend Buffalo cannot afford to miss.

replied to brownteeth
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I don't fail to realize that. That's why I want those things in the city. I would like to rely on my car less, but not completely. That's my personal preference and also why Buffalo works better for me than you.

I would love to see the 190 & 33 removed or at least many of the off ramps. I would love to undo sprawl and the false notion that parking is a problem in the city. I just think it will be more likely to bring the "suburban" retailers into the city than it will be to remove all the infrastructure that killed the city. I think that retail would also provide jobs for many college students thus keeping them in the city, at least while in school. That would also help draw tourists, primarily Canadians to spend time and money in the city.

replied to STEEL
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Ever heard of Earth Day? I see more under 40s driving suv's than folks over 50. Seriously.

replied to P2bbuffalonian
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> buffalonians under 40: i'll put the question to you directly. do you feel like you're being heard or being patronized?

I'm on the old side of Generation X; between the suburban Baby Boomers and more urban millennials.

Austin and Denver, two cities where I once lived, felt like places where the young took ownership of the community. Young adults made Denver and Austin theirs, and it was encouraged by the city's leaders. There was a lot of youthful energy, much evidence of which could be seen inside local government.

Not so in Buffalo. When I was there, I felt like the city was "owned" by the old-timers; older Baby Boomers, and the generation before them who collected tin and bought War Bonds. It often felt like I was intruding on someone else's turf; a 55-plus club that saw me and my peers as outsiders who didn't belong. This wasn't a city that seemed to welcome or cater to young adults, and there was no interest in harnessing their energy and spirit. An indicator of sorts; if I went into a store or restaurants, there would be stacks of various kinds of of niche newspapers catering to senior citizens. Buffalo remains dog-hostile. There's no shortage of programs and events for seniors, but the amenities and built environment young people demand are a low priority.

Other cities look forward to their future. Buffalo still clutches to its past. It doesn't see the young as leaders that will take the city into the future, but as a minor nuisance.

replied to grad94
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"young people who live in Cleveland were expressing their preferences very clearly: they want a dense, walkable downtown -- not a car repository for suburbanites."

In New York, they eliminated car traffic from Times Square.

In Buffalo, we're spending millions to put cars back on Main Street.

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Alot of cities tried the pedestrian mall thing and a high percentage of them failed. Buffalo is late to the game reverting a pedestrian mall back to active streets. The cities that have done it have had success. Adding traffic doesn't mean that you ignore the pedestrian either. New York City is unique enough that you can't compare it to buffalo. I think putting traffic on main street will help the central business district by adding some need activity to dead streets.

replied to RobH
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Well the problem with the pedestrian mall was that it did not fix the underlying problems to why retail was vacating main street. It is the same reason why returning vehicular traffic also will no nothing to lure retail back.

Solve the underlying problems and it doesn't matter if it is a pedestrian mall or a car accessible street; retail will flourish either way.

We just need to look at Elmwood. Elmwood is surrounded by middle-class residents with spending power. Downtown not so much.

replied to Mark_Hitchcock
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I agree there's many reasons that Main st retail left and that it will take many different solutions to bring it back. I don't think cars alone will spur retail development on Main, though it may prime that a little. I do think however that there are a few key parties responsible to do their part for it to work. I think the city is responsible to provide the infrastructure (which they are currently), property owners are responsible to maintain or renovate to attract the tenants/retailers, and the tenants/retailers are responsible to be open and available for more than the 9-5 mon-fri crowd.

replied to No_Illusions
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I read once that about 270 Ped Malls were created in various cites and only around 40 exist today.

replied to Mark_Hitchcock
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every peer of mine in the Buffalo young worforce basically all flock to the same limited options: M&T, First Niagara, Ingram Micro, somewhere in the medical field, a BS lowpaying job in sales they hate, or they are unemployed and contemplating leaving Blo.

Don't ask the news, ask actual young college graduates in Buffalo #TheTruth

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You nailed it. I'm graduating next year with a degree in business and if I wasn't attempting to start my own business, then all the professors can talk about is getting a job at FN, M&T or moving to NYC. I can't say I have the solution for that but indeed just listening to the ones (young grads) who are already here might be a nice start. ECC expanding downtown was an obvious situation but I read in the news the other day that Jack Quinn wants to expand all 3 campuses when asked about the topic. I already know their feasibility study is gonna be total bullshit and say something like there's room for all 3 to grow, build the medical building at North and add some automotive classes downtown. Sigh.

replied to 5to81ALLDAY
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That is a sad truth in many ways. There are options out there but often times little vertical or horiziontal mobility to other employers in a similar field if you dont like your job or want to move on. The other option is just dismissing your education and just taking any job at any pay, no matter how low it may be- pigeon holing yourself just to stay around. That never looks good or makes sense on a resume so people go to where they can land on their feet in their field. Nothing against those employers mentioned. Unfortunately the area has a few niche industries and the job markets dont seem very deep in everything else. The local colleges educate many people and the local market wont absorb the degrees and probaly wont pay well either because the applicant pool is so deep. Year after year I see new groups of Buffalonians showing up states away, just moved pursuing employment.

I love all the public investments going on at the inner and outer harbor but REALLY the area needs to focus on landing large scale private employers to complement efforts. This means more than credit card debt collector services. Buffalo needs alot more Webster Block fast transactions in exchange for new development. I would like to think that the area can get it self to a point where it doesnt have to roll out the red carpet or throw buckets of incentive dollars at companies to get them there. It takes strategic economic planning, infrastructure planning.

replied to 5to81ALLDAY
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Texas throws buckets of money at companies to move there. m That is a big part of the reason companies move there.

replied to flyguy
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Buffalo suffers because we are in New York. Without New York City, Buffalo would be thriving and flourishing because all of our money would be staying locally, not being sent to NYC. We need more than just leaders in Buffalo who want change -- we need leaders at the state-level who advocate for us. Buffalo Billion seemed like a load of crap to me. A billion dollars and all we get is 250 jobs? That's it?

I agree that Buffalo caters to the older population. This may come as possibly insulting and probably get my downvoted, but I don't feel like many of the jobs in Buffalo actually cater to the young college graduate. It's great to have diversity in terms of careers, but college grads flock to Boston, Chicago, NY, Austin, etc because those cities are continuously ranked as intelligent cities where their education will probably be valued more within the workforce.

It's frustrating as a young person because once all these Baby Boomers and people controlling out jobs and city retire, Buffalo is going to be even further behind unless we make some changes. But to do that, we need a big company to move to Buffalo instead of NYC, imo.

replied to STEEL
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Not true.... in 09-10 New York City residents and businesses paid about $4.1 billion more to Albany in taxes and fees than the state returned in spending for education, health care, transit and other services. For the nearby suburban counties (Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland and Westchester), it was $7.9 billion more in taxes than came back in spending. Guess where the difference went?

replied to Cam33r4
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Baloney. this canard has been around since at least the 60s. The entire Buffalo region gets far more from Albany than it puts in.

Trust me -- I have a close friend from Buffalo who used to work at Tax and Finance for NY. Buffalo would fall off the fiscal cliff if it were to leave.

Don't believe me? Consider this: One block of midtown Manhattan generates more tax revenue for Albany than the entire city of Buffalo. You just can't compare the two. The budget for New York city dworfs that of the entire WNY community.

It's just crazy and ill informed talk that thinks that New York city or Albany are so dependent upon the weak economy of Buffalo. You seriously think that a city and county that is receivership is subsidizing downstate?

It's beyond laughable, but so sad that we have so many urban myths still floating around.

replied to Cam33r4
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Rand - while I share your disagreement with what Cam's comment said, yours goes too far in the other direction when saying "Buffalo would fall off the fiscal cliff if it were to leave."
In that wild hypothetical of "leaving", it would depend where Buffalo/WNY went and how it decided to govern.

Yes, more govt $ comes to Buffalo/WNY from Albany than Buffalo/WNY sends to there (despite the common misconception Cam repeated).

However, that's a very incomplete summary of the relationship.
Along with positive cash flow thanks to NYC, there's also a very big set of NY state laws, regulations, impacts of taxes, etc. - significantly different from even other northern states like Ohio, PA, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin, etc
It can be argued whether that's negative or positive depending on anyone's politics, but it has big impacts.

You mentioned our city & county govts here as being "in receivership". Even if that hyperbole was true, much of its cause would be Albany-mandated spending and labor laws our city & county govts wouldn't have in any other state.
It also affects the business environment. For one example, why does Honda have several factories and 1000's of jobs in Ohio, but zero anywhere in NY state?

Other midsized cities the northern U.S. have survived ok without being in the same state as NYC.
On the smaller side - Erie, Toledo, Grand Rapids, etc.
On the larger side - Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc.
If history had somehow put Buffalo in a different state than NYC is in, or if NYC was its own separate state, many things would be different for Buffalo/WNY - we can never know - but I don't see any reason to think Buffalo/WNY would necessarily be fallen of any fiscal cliff merely because it isn't in the same state as NYC.

replied to Rand503
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> Texas throws buckets of money at companies to move there. m That is a big part of the reason companies move there.

Economies of scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale) and economies of agglomeration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_agglomeration)are also a big factors, things the Buffalo has lost through the years.

replied to STEEL
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They gave Apple 30 million to move there.

replied to Dan
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At the same time the unemployment rate for recent graduates is high all over the nation.

I looked but I cannot find any statistics by age bracket for unemployment for Buffalo alone.

replied to 5to81ALLDAY
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> every peer of mine in the Buffalo young worforce basically all flock to the same limited options: M&T, First Niagara, Ingram Micro, somewhere in the medical field, a BS lowpaying job in sales they hate, or they are unemployed and contemplating leaving Blo.

Cleveland has the advantage of being a larger city, with a larger critical mass. There's an abundance of corporate headquarters, and many very large back office and research operations. Geography, rather than choice, becomes the limiting factor. If you're a loyal West Sider, who would never dream of living east of the Cuyahoga, would you be willing to drive 45 minutes every morning to Progressive Insurance in Mayfield Heights? If you live in Cleveland Heights, does the 45 minute haul to American Greetings in Westlake make sense?

Some may see the abundance of small, family-owned businesses in Buffalo as an asset; earnings are more likely to stay in the community than be distributed to distant stockholders. However, career advancement is a problem I've heard many mention. In Buffalo's small businesses, leadership roles are reserved for family and friends, and it's impossible to make climb a career ladder more than a few rungs before you hit the boss's cousin or daughter.

replied to 5to81ALLDAY
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For several years, I lived in South Euclid, one of the inner ring suburbs in the Heights area just east of the City of Cleveland. (I still own my house there; I'm an evil absentee landlord now.) South Euclid is predominantly middle class, mostly built out, and has a feel that is similar to the north end of Kenmore. It's also racially diverse, and quite proud of it; one of the group of inner ring suburbs that worked to promote stable racial integration.

When I was living there, one of the issues South Euclid faced was a declining population, and a housing stock that was increasingly seen as obsolete A portion of the city is dominated by smaller Cape Cods (about 1200-1400 square feet), which no longer appealed to typical suburban families. One of the solutions was to market the city to singles, childless couples and young families; those who weren't necessarily looking for huge houses, large lots, and the associated upkeep. From a fiscal standpoint, singles and childless couples are seen as very desirable; they pay the same amount of property taxes as families with children, but use far fewer services.

South Euclid also is actively rebranding itself, positing itself as a greener, more sustainable and more urban alternative to more distant suburbs.

http://www.cleveland.com/lyndhurst-south-euclid/index.ssf/2012/11/south_euclid_looks_to_the_futu.html

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/devnews/seuclidideahouse110812.aspx?utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=as

http://www.cleveland.com/insideout/index.ssf/2010/05/south_euclid_rehabs_homes_to_d.html

http://www.examiner.com/article/sustainability-64-a-suburb-fights-to-hold-ground

It may be more difficult for Buffalo or its larger suburbs to take such initiatives. Cleveland's suburbs are small, and they can more easily find a niche to capitalize on; progressive Cleveland Heights, green South Euclid, LGBT friendly Lakewood, diverse and genteel Shaker Heights. Buffalo's neighborhoods can learn some lessons from Cleveland's small suburbs, though.

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I am going to get shot down for this but inner city living attracts a culture of individuals that spans several generations; young, middle aged and empty-nesters who no longer have to be concerned about their children being subjected to public schools.

Segregating or catering to the younger generation is not only laughable but insulting. Appeal to the individuals who have not been sold on the idea that they need to reside in a brand new home, in a brand new subdivision with their brand new SUV’s parked outside of their two car garage because it is filled with their material possessions.

Also, the lack of employment opportunities is the driving force. This statement has become cliché but yet we read these same articles about attracting or keeping a younger work force as if it will become the Holy Grail for resurrecting Buffalo.

Jobs attract people – young , middle aged and post retirement!

Score: 9 ( 15 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Well said.

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Jobs, jobs and jobs. People (especially young people) are flocking to North Dakota because of jobs in the Bakken oil fields not because they can walk to Starbucks.

Though I do love walkability, and Buffalo would be wise to cultivate that along with...jobs, jobs and jobs.

Did I mention jobs?

Score: 0 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

> People (especially young people) are flocking to North Dakota because of jobs in the Bakken oil fields not because they can walk to Starbucks.

How many UB grads are making their way to Williston to work as roughnecks, and live in a man camp? How many roughnecks will stay there when the boom is over?

Extractive industries don't attract intelligent, creative professionals. They provide plentiful short-term jobs to a semi-skilled, predominantly make workforce of high school graduates, with a few scattered supervisory, engineering, and environmental science positions among the mix.

Buffalo needs jobs, but it's just one part of the equation. Buffalo's colleges and universities spit out educated young adults by the tens of thousands. They leave partly because they can't find jobs in their field, but also because they feel Buffalo just isn't a good fit for them. Jobs alone might keep the Buffalo-is-the-best-city-ever homers or those with deep roots in the area from a one-way U-Haul rental. However, young adults increasingly seek not only gainful employment but a lifestyle. They want cities that can give them more than just a paycheck, some pretty architecture, and good wings. If Buffalo doesn't offer the lifestyle Millennials want, there's no stopping them from leaving.

Score: 1 ( 3 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

TL/DR:

People are moving to North Dakota for a job.

People are moving to Austin, Portland, and similar cities for a job and a lifestyle.

Buffalo needs more than just jobs to keep and attract young professionals. You can have a job in Buffalo, or a job in top-of-every-top-10-city-list ten-times-the-number-of-matches-my-age-than-here-on-OkCupid they-won't-look-at-me-funny-with-my-sleeve-and-nose-stud Austin. Pick one. For the readers of BR, it's probably going to be Buffalo. For most others, they're going to look past the pizza and Queen Anne houses, and see what best fits their lifestyle.

Cities are aspirational places now more than ever. Who would someone aspire to live in Buffalo?

Okay, maybe not TL/DR. Sorry.

replied to Dan
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This post makes almost no sense. Pizza and Queen Anne houses? Are you serious?

replied to Dan
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> This post makes almost no sense. Pizza and Queen Anne houses? Are you serious?

Yes. Not everybody delights in Buffalo-style authenticity and grit. They'll take a city packed full of their tech-savvy peers, a large dating pool, and a thriving music scene, over what Buffalo puts front and center as its assets: comfort food, architecture, ethnic heritage, 20 minute commutes, and "I'll take a blizzard over an earthquake/heat wave/hurricane".

Nothing wrong with the "Buffalo lifestyle" for some. For a larger number of Millennials and Generation Xers, though, Portland or Austin speaks to them better. Cite: Census 2010, Census 2000, Census 1990 ....

replied to EricOak
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What does grit have to do with the deep catalog of cultural assets in Buffalo? If the tech savvy date-hungry guy or gal is too stupid or provincial to enjoy those offerings in Buffalo, who is to blame? Let them leave for some "lifestyle" based on far-away food and phone apps, but don't patronize a city that has more serious cultural capital than you can measure.

When you reduce an entire city's cultural experience to Victorian houses and pizza, you just sound so...unsophisticated.


replied to Dan
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That's some seriously purple prose. Eric, do you know how pompous and sanctimonious that sounds?

The masses are voting with their feet. Millennials would rather live in Austin than Buffalo. If that makes them ignorant, unsophisticated, ignorant, and unable to appreciate Buffalo's cultural assets in your eyes, so be it.

replied to EricOak
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Actually, I thought it was rather austere.
When I see provinciality masquerading as sophistication, I will call it out from here to thy kingdom come. You trumpet the yearnings of "millenials" for some "lifestyle": what is this fabled life? What events does this lifestyle sparkle with? In Buffalo, I can sail, ski, water ski, hike, go to several museums, ride horses in the city, live surrounded by stunning buildings, hear the Philharmonic, go to serious art and literature lectures on a weekly basis, see live theatre, hear fantastic chamber music, bask in parks, visit galleries, buy books at actual stores, attend festivals.... what marvelous experience am I missing out on by not living in Austin, Texas?

If someone needs a job and can't find it here, that's a simple reason to move....but if young people, in the wisdom that comes from being 25, think they need to leave Buffalo for good because there just isn't enough to do, they are suffering from the pox we all suffer during those years: immaturity.

Like every city I know, Buffalo has grim illnesses. But it's in a fascinating tango right now: between its elegant decay, grave changes in national demographics, and the faint smell of reinvention. Your comments about the nature of life here do not speak to this dance; and they are not true. But I agree with you on this: the census spins as young people march into Austin and Portland and City du jour. Perhaps they are seduced by the appeal of the migrating "masses" you cite. You admire this; I'm leery of mass-think. The irony is that in the end, what people do is pretty much the same everywhere in the increasingly homogenized cities of America.

replied to Dan
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You make excuses while blinding yourself to how very very nice places like Portland are. Stay blind and keep building parking lots trying to entice the suburbanites back and convincing their kids that Buffalo is all that.

replied to EricOak
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ericoak has never been one to favor demolition. are you sure you replied to the right comment?

replied to STEEL
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Steel--I think that's unfair. I'm a trustee of Preservation Buffalo Niagara. I work to stop demolition for parking. I'm here to fight for Buffalo.
I'm happy you like Portland, but I simply prefer Buffalo. What is blind about that?
And what did I say about Buffalo that was inaccurate? I think Buffalo is an extremely handsome and very anemic city -- much of it I dislike. And I prefer it to any city I've lived in. Why do you care?

replied to STEEL
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That is fine. But you sound like you are making excuses for Buffalo by downplaying how nice other cities are. Everything you listed as assets of Buffalo are also available in other cities but other cities that are attracting people and jobs also have vibrant walkable streets all over the place. Not just in a few isolated areas. Pretending Buffalo is peachy keen and need not look beyond its boarders to see how things can be done better is just as damaging as the next parking lot to come along. Buffalo has potential right now - great potential but being satisfied with potential is a recipe for disaster.

replied to EricOak
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But what you said was unfair. I never disparaged Austin or Portland--I respect them no more or less than any other city. I just don't care for them. I like certain cities: New Orleans, Charleston, Portland, Maine, Washington DC, Buffalo, but I find the ambiance of self-conscious cities claustrophobic and uniform, and I think their virtues have been distorted, just as some of Buffalo's problems, as I'm sure you would agree, have been distorted. That's a taste that many people hold but are afraid to express, because we live in a loud and idiotic age of MSNBC and Forbes top ten lists, of vapid real estate shows and stats-addled, urban planning wonks. My argument is simple; cities are larger and more mysterious than any of those voices. Dan thinks that young people crave a magic lifestyle in say, Portland or Austin. I say they are probably moving there for job opportunities (good for them!) but have also been steered by a slick media that is constantly aggrandizing and denigrating cities as it needs to cater to the fickle whims of the day. I think many of us would welcome a break from this obsessive comparing and measuring of cities. We might, finally, discover that people actually live pretty much the same everywhere. It's the deeper emotional meaning in people's lives that really matters, not the ordained lifestyle of the city they move to.

Also, the amenities I listed are not available in all cities. There is more and better literary culture in Buffalo than in either Portland or Austin. The classical music scene in Buffalo is rich and better than both those cities. I am sure they have wonderful qualities, but they don't seduce me.

Lastly, I see nothing constructive in comments like Dan's, which reduce cities to a typical "lifestyle" script. How insulting to all the different kinds of people, young and old, who live in all the cities of America in different ways. I suspect that in our times, when people are so anxious about their life's work, meaning, identity, money, we have placed far too much accent on identifying with our cities. Instead of finding value in our personal mysteries and troubles, instead of accepting that cities of all sizes and kinds can be meaningful and fruitful places to live, we try to feel good, even superior, by being part of a particular city and its particular, probably ephemeral, reputation. I find this sad, and I am as guilty as anyone.

replied to STEEL
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People don't live pretty much the same everywhere. Buffalo has done great damage to its livability by placing almost all of its eggs in the car culture basket. The point of this story is that making excuses and pretending that cars are the future of cities is insane and myopic. Buffalo will not be competitive as a suburbanized city. It isn't and it won't be.

replied to EricOak
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I was trying to enlarge the scope a little, but that doesn't go over well here.

Also, there might be more to the livability equation than life without a car--as a young person noted in this thread:

"There is no right or wrong answer to where anyone wants to live and why. There are so many factors that go into it."

That's a wiser comment than anything you or I have said.

replied to STEEL
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Do people move to these places because of jobs? Or do they move there because thats where its at? Do the jobs follow the people or do people follow the jobs?

Post college..before settling down/marriage where do you want to be? In Buffalo, making a decent wage..owning your home/condo..spending your weekends eating mediocre italian food in restaurants with a seemingly endless amount of senior citizens? Or do you want to be in a place where you can go out and have fun..somehwere thats exciting, changing, new different..and earn less?

I tend to think that if you have a fantastic environment that attracts lots of people (short term..long term w/e) that the jobs follow. I'm totally with a lot of the above..even the highlights of the city (Elmwood/Hertel/Allen/Chippewa) aren't that great..and get old very quickly.

I often bounce between what I think is worse sometimes..Buffalos livability index or its employment situation?

replied to Dan
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Buffalo All Star> In Buffalo, making a decent wage..owning your home/condo..spending your weekends eating mediocre italian food in restaurants with a seemingly endless amount of senior citizens?

I think a lot of the "It's all about jobs!" posters underestimate the desire to be around one's peers. Yes, there's a lot of young, educated professionals in Elmwood Village and Allentown, and in North Buffalo to some extent, but they're enclaves surrounded by Old Buffalo.

An experiment for armchair demographers: set up a free account on OkCupid. Set your age between 25 and 35. Do a search for members of the gender you're most attracted to, one year older and one year younger, who have logged in within the past week, in a 10 mile radius of 14222. Next, try the same thing for 78704 (South Austin), 97209 (Portland - Nob Hill), 30305 (Atlanta - Buckhead), 28203 (Charlotte - Dilworth), and 80206 (Denver - Congress Park). Compare the number of profiles, and their quality, to the 14222 search.

replied to Buffalo All Star
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I agree. Buffalo seriously lacks the type of single scene that any young professional male is looking for. I go to other cities all the time and everywhere I go is packed with young hot women. You go out in Buffalo and you see the same Chippewa trash, or some girl drinking Labatt Blue like it's her life blood. How about some girls with class, that know how to dress.

replied to Dan
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Your looking in the wrong places, women with "class" are not on Chippewa or likely to be found in the "singles scene". You need to look at work, in your community, or join a group of some sort. I would also avoid referring to potential partners as "young hot women", sounds kind of shallow, might scare the classy ones away. Just some free advice from an old master :)

replied to Up and coming
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How about, "young tale?" lol.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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When OKCupid is your barometer for meaning, you might fail to notice the rest of life that goes on.

replied to Dan
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> When OKCupid is your barometer for meaning, you might fail to notice the rest of life that goes on.

Young people generally want to make friends with others their age, date, have sex, and eventually get married and raise a family. Usually, they want to pursue those activities with other young adults with a similar level of education, and shared interests. If there are few people like them where they live, or they can't find others to date, they may go elsewhere.

OkCupid is extremely popular with young, educated singles under 40. It can be used as an indicator of how many younger adults might be in a city, and the vibrancy of its social and dating scene.

Despite its friendly reputation, Buffalo has a reputation as a town where it can be challenging to meet other people and make new friends as an adult. Rust Belt cities in general can be hard to break into socially, compared to growing cities, because the vast majority of residents are natives with established circles of friends that date back to elementary and high school, and there's few newcomers. Rust Belt cities like Buffalo and Cleveland are also thought of as places where locals tend to marry at a young age, resulting in a much smaller dating pool for those who may be 25 and older. Ethnic insularity isn't nearly as bad as it was in the 1980s and before, but it can also be limiting; "My Dad will kill me if he finds out I"m dating someone who's not Irish."

I understand your sentiment and affection towards your adopted city, but it really isn't shared by those who are leaving. Literary circles, WNED-FM, the Buffalo Philharmonic, the Albright-Knox, and "authenticity" are priceless assets, but they aren't going to keep the young ones at home. Cleveland has OUTSTANDING high culture, what is arguably the best orchestra in the nation, more chamber music groups than I can count, a vibrant theater scene, a professional opera company, and world-class museums and galleries, and it's bleeding its young to cities where hipster indie bands and food trucks rule the day. 6th Street and Emo's beat University Circle and Severance Hall, at least for Millennials.

replied to EricOak
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I wish I could agree with you, Dan, but thanks for being reasonable. I just don't see why we can't let cities be different from each other. Really different. That's what I find baffling about your assessment of Buffalo life. If some people-- young, middle years, or older-- choose not to live in an indie band, phone app, food truck city, does that make their city less meaningful or valuable? If some people choose to live in a city--say Buffalo--that offers a perfect cocktail of high culture, not so high culture, and beautiful scale, why denigrate their choice? Maybe you're right, and the herds of young people want to live in the indie, hipster, food truck cities. I'm fine with that. Let them live there, happily, and let other people live in Buffalo or Cleveland, happily. Different places for different folks. If you dislike Buffalo, you need to live somewhere else or make it what you want. I don't like or understand the culture you describe, but I don't look down on anyone for living anywhere. You do...and you're smarter than that. You're a cosmopolitan person, and cosmopolitan people remember that people are different, places are different, and you never belittle anyone.

By the way, this is my hometown, not my adopted city. New York was exhausting after several years, living in Toronto was like living in a cold beehive, couldn't stay in Europe...so I drifted home to Buffalo, where I met the smartest people I had ever known, doing the most interesting work, amidst the most aching beauty, in a once grand city in crisis. It was too good to resist. I'm sorry you haven't seen that treasure here, and that it all just amounts to "pizza and Queen Anne's" for you. I say this because you seem smart and maybe you'll pause and let Buffalo be its own city, unlike any other city--they way it should be. Can't say this to Steel--he's too fundamentalist, doesn't listen, it's like trying to argue with John the Baptist. But maybe you're malleable. Be even smarter than you are...always be wary of the herd.

replied to Dan
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I am not convinced that Buffalo isn't becoming the next "indie band, phone app, food truck city" to watch. Young people ARE moving back to Buffalo--I am eager to see the next Census numbers--and/or are eager to stay--for the first time in decades.

Honestly--I am seeing Buffalo change before my eyes. I agree that is has been long known as a "great place to raise kids"--however, there is quite a burgeoning singles network, and the pressure to "settle down" and "raise a family" seems to be subsiding a bit.

What I find interesting about Buffalo, is that a lot of socializing happens around philanthropy/social activism; want to meet a date, join the Young Preservationists, Sugar City, Emerging Leaders of Artists, etc. Or, if it doesn't currently exist, start a group of your own--very easy to do in Buffalo.

I was in Austin not too long ago and I have to say I was quite underwhelmed--not only by the built environment (Charlotte much?), but by the lack of authenticity and vibe (which, admittedly, might be getting wiped out by the sheer growth--140k people move there annually, so it is bound to have a gentrifying effect (it's hard to "keep Austin weird" at that growth rate.....) Now, I am sure I would have a different take if I were there for SXSW.....

replied to EricOak
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Travelrrr> I was in Austin not too long ago and I have to say I was quite underwhelmed--not only by the built environment (Charlotte much?), but by the lack of authenticity and vibe

I think highly of Austin's appeal to youth, and the fact that civic leaders there "get it", for the most part. Their built environment, though? Awful. Austin was a small town before WWII, and there's very little "old urbanism". 1950s-era suburbs, the equivalent of the Cleveland Hill or Englewood areas, are experiencing massive gentrification. Imagine a strip plaza with tattoo parlors, indie record stores, resale boutiques, skate shops, and hole-in-the-wall hipster bars where you'll be the first to hear that band everybody will soon love to hate because they sold out and bought some recording studio time, and you've got Hyde Park, North Loop, Lamar, etc.

Enjoy some Austin-style neighborhood urbanism.

http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/25668/title/austin-2c-texas-3a-east-side/cat/6200
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/25271/title/austin-2c-texas-3a-north-loop/cat/6200
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/25265/title/austin-2c-texas-3a-north-loop/cat/6200
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/25187/title/austin-2c-texas-3a-south-congress-avenue2f-soco/cat/6200
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/25207/title/austin-2c-texas-3a-south-congress-avenue2f-soco/cat/6200
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/25214/title/austin-2c-texas-3a-south-congress-avenue2f-soco/cat/6200
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/25240/title/austin-2c-texas-3a-south-congress-avenue2f-soco/cat/6200
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/25264/title/austin-2c-texas-3a-north-loop/cat/6200
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/25268/title/austin-2c-texas-3a-north-loop/cat/6200
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/25258/title/austin-2c-texas-3a-north-loop/cat/6200
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/23625/title/austin-3a-south-1st-street/cat/6200
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/24396/title/austin-2c-texas-3a-guadalupe-street-the-drag/cat/6200
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/24398/title/austin-2c-texas-3a-guadalupe-street-the-drag/cat/6200


A thread on Cyburbia that is very critical of Austin's built environment:

http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38418

Thing is, civic leaders in the Austin area are now beginning to turn their backs on Texas-style sprawl. Austin and many of its suburbs are very aggressive on changing the form of future development, and retrofitting areas that were developed with cars in mind. I was the planning director for a fast-growing Austin suburb, and we adopted a locally calibrated version of the SmartCode, and a very strict conventional but form-leaning zoning code that I wrote. Would any of Buffalo's suburbs even think about consider zoning that allows any kind of urbanism, or even basic architectural design or basic site planning standards?

replied to Travelrrr
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Amherst has a fairly strong mixed use zoning code for their older "downtown" areas like Snyder and Eggertsville. And Williamsville has recently been in the news for trying to improve the walkable village feel of Main Street.

replied to Dan
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"Extractive industries don't attract intelligent, creative professionals"
Elitist, ignorant hyperbole.

Modern gas drilling and mining are the most cutting edge, high-tech jobs there are. It requires very skilled, and experienced programmers, geologists, engineers etc.

And to your points about lifestyle. All lifestyles except homelessness and couch surfing require money..which brings me to jobs. Did I mention jobs?

replied to Dan
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> Modern gas drilling and mining are the most cutting edge, high-tech jobs there are.

And one of the most transient. Ask the long-time residents of Gillette, Wyoming or Rifle, Colorado.

Yes, there's geologists, engineers of various specialties, environmental specialists, procurement/entitlement specialists, and so on. They're in and out, along with the roughnecks that ultimately make up the bulk of the workforce. The roughnecks mostly aren't locals; they come from Texas, Louisiana and Oklahoma, following the jobs. They work their asses off, get paid very well, party hard, and ultimately leave.

When fracking comes to New York, very few of your neighbors will be at the wellpads. It'll be young men that call Beaumont, Jennings, Longview, and Lufkin home, and it's to those places where they'll ultimately return. They're not going to be sticking around Elmira, Hornell, and Jamestown for too long.

replied to Buffalogni
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As someone under 40 who moved to Buffalo in 2009 after living in Philadelphia for 10 years, this assessment is spot on. Buffalo (and cities like it) do need to do more to emulate what big cities have to attract and retain young people.

Buffalo is better than its reputation, but obviously Philadelphia is a more vibrant city with many more attractions for younger people. I am one of those people who values density, diversity, culture, transit, etc. When we first moved here, we rented out in Getzville. To us it was awful. We were used to living in walkable areas and needing to get into the car to drive for everything was not something we were used to. We felt bored and trapped.

After much research, we decided to buy in Elmwood Village because it was the closest we could find to what we would consider Philadelphia-style living. We only need one car. I can take transit downtown to work. We can walk to some dining, shopping and entertainment options. But even Elmwood Village has a long way to go to compete with many of the neighboorhoods of Philadelphia. To be honest, I would prefer to live downtown, but the density and "livability" options just don't exist there yet. But as I look out my office window and see the progress being made at Canalside, I do have hope for the future.

There is no silver bullet for Buffalo, but nobody can deny the facts that urban living is growing especially amoung the young. This is where we should be investing our resources. And if we have to copy other cities to do it, we should.

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To weigh in, I actually think the Powers That Be are beginning to listen to the younger generation, and I think this has to do with several factors:

1) social media: this allows for more transparency, social mobilization, etc. Basically, it's become more difficult to conduct back room dealings as the internet provides unparalleled exposure;

2) engagement: young people--whether individuals or part of organizations like PUSH, ReUse, MAP, Buffalo First, etc.--are driving Buffalo's turn-around on a grassroots level (whereas before, young people were just hell bent on leaving town. Now they want to stay.) It's going to be more difficult to ignore that collective force as it continues to gain steam;

3) Buffalo's rising star: a lot of people I meet who are coming/returning to Buffalo are doing so to be part of a new Buffalo--this is pretty exciting, and only gaining steam. I think it will be very difficult to continue to play the status quo (see point #1).

Could/should the PTB pay more attention and work with the young generation more? Absolutely. Nothing scares me more than all this "top down" development talk. Give the people the tools/infrastructure, and get out of the way.

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Yo guys are funny...ya know why people move to Austin, NYC, Philly, and Chicago..because they're friggen awesome and they're Austin, NYC, Philly, and Chicago.

I'm a few years out of college and was fortunate enough to find a job in wny (not a predominant local industry)..my college friendsmake 1/3 more than I do and they live in the cities above..but I'm light years ahead of them? Weird right.??? (Own a home, 2 paid cars, saving $$, cutting student loans etc) But I'll tell you..one word about a sunny afternoon in Millennium Park or how they sprung for dinner in Manhattan..it kills ya. You don't necessarily yearn for the material aspect (shopping/eating out) you year to be part of that distinctive environment. After all of their expenses and not having 2 pennies to rub together @ the end of the month..it doesn't matter because they're living in Chicago or NYC.

5to81allday..youre funny man. Do you think there are two major banking HQ'S in every city?? Good god..such limited options being from a town thats the hq for one of the largest banks in the country..who would want to work for m&T? Let alone First Niagara or the little place called HSBC either. I've never understood the whole no jobs in wny spiel..I am fortunate..I work in hospitality and went into it with the utmost certainty I would have to leave. Buffalo is not Las Vegas and definately not Paris. Theres jobs out there folks..check the company websites..they may not be jobs youre qualified for..and you may not have 12 to choose from but they're well paying jobs. If theres one thing Buffalo needs to do is market itself to people WE HAVE WORK FOR!!!

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for an average college grad, the jobs at HSBC are in the mortgage division. They don't pay all that well and its not a very desirable day-to-day operation. 4 of my peers that were hired by them have left after 2> years mentioning how miserable it was. And isn't that the one division they are cutting in Buffalo or at least severely downsizing?

I am one of the biggest cheerleaders for Buffalo of anyone i know. I am in fact a realist though. BRO readers LOVE to find the miniscule things about Buffalo that make it great to try to avoid the MASSIVE shortcomings it has for 19-30 year olds. I am happy you like your job and you bought two cars, but I live in NYC and I would rather be saving little within this environment than have some money tucked away and moping around about my life. I have plenty of years to save money but i am in the greatest city in the world and loving life.

If I were to do my job in Buffalo, the only way I would be able to get that job would be through connections, and even that would probably be a job they would have to make up in order to hire me. Not everyone has the luxury of friends in prominent positions, so that is why the average Joe in buffalo is still searching for the answer.

replied to Buffalo All Star
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Well there ya go...the main question is would a person like you living in one of the greatest cities in the country (and paying for it) be willing to trade that for the "Buffalo lifestyle" where you would have more $$ to your name at the end of the day?

Thats the problem with Buffalo...I'll agree that jobs in all industries aren't plentiful..and on top of that, people do not want to come here period. I've heard multiple stories from all sorts of recruiters about potential employees/canidates who wouldn't give Buffalo a chance due to our reputation.

And we all know..a good portion of it is not true but a lot of it is.

replied to 5to81ALLDAY
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Have to say that I am proud of my commenters today. Nicely balanced intelligent conversation guys!

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It's all about jobs. The high-techs were founded in the Southland or Sun Belt, where the taxes were loswer than in NYS, while the NE manufacturing jobs disappeared. I would have loved to stay in WNY after I graduated from college, but there were no jobs in my field, so I left.

How many young people used to work in the steel mills, or auto plants, GE, Westinghouse, etc? Living-wage jobs, and a chance for promotion to some stage of middle-management for some. Those opportunities are long gone.

Buffalo does have plenty of affordable housing, especially if you have the funds or know-how to fix up an existing home that can be had for virtually free. Home ownership isn't for everyone, but if you're in your 20s and want a house, you have a lot better chance of buying one in Buffalo than in Austin or Portland or SoCal(for example), where the prices are astronomical in comparison.

Buffalo has water, and plenty of available electical power. These assets must be leveraged, and there must be a complete overhaul of the NYS tax system, to convince 21st-century businesses to locate here instead of someplace else.

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like these jobs. i'd love to have them here in buffalo.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/06/apple-manufacturing-usa-macs_n_2249613.html

but apple will extort whatever it can from whatever state & local government. i predict the bidding will reach $100K per job.

replied to EAHS 1972
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I am responding to the original piece on Rustwire....While I would agree mostly with your comments, you need to understand that not every young professional longs for an atmosphere like Boston, NYC and SanFran where the cost of living is quite out of reach for some folks, even in professional jobs. How great are place like Cleveland, Detroit and Buffalo where you can make a decent living and have pockets of culture, great food, music etc. These places have areas that offer whatever it is that young people are looking for. Its just a matter of scale. I happen to be from Buffalo and love its scale and livability. NYC, Boston are nice places to visit but who wants to commute 2-3 hours a day and not even have time to enjoy all the things you're saying these cities have to offer? There is no right or wrong answer to where anyone wants to live and why. There are so many factors that go into it, affordability, family etc. I don't think it makes any sense to compare our Rust Belt cities with that of our "cosmo" cities. They just aren't the same. They don't attract the same people. I wish we would stop trying to get people to believe that their city is 'on the edge' of trying to be like NYC or Boston. YOU'RE NOT. and we like it that way. If you don't like it...move. Its not the same. Yes there are elements that work in those cities, but again they are on a different scale.......

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While I would agree mostly with your comments, you need to understand that not every young professional longs for an atmosphere like Boston, NYC and SanFran where the cost of living is quite out of reach for some folks, even in professional jobs. How great are place like Cleveland, Detroit and Buffalo where you can make a decent living and have pockets of culture, great food, music etc. These places have areas that offer whatever it is that young people are looking for. Its just a matter of scale. I happen to be from Buffalo and love its scale and livability. NYC, Boston are nice places to visit but who wants to commute 2-3 hours a day and not even have time to enjoy all the things you're saying these cities have to offer? There is no right or wrong answer to where anyone wants to live and why. There are so many factors that go into it, affordability, family etc. I don't think it makes any sense to compare our Rust Belt cities with that of our "cosmo" cities. They just aren't the same. They don't attract the same people. I wish we would stop trying to get people to believe that their city is 'on the edge' of trying to be like NYC or Boston. YOU'RE NOT. and we like it that way. If you don't like it...move. Its not the same. Yes there are elements that work in those cities, but again they are on a different scale.......

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As a 22 year old college student I would have to say I mostly agree with this article. Also to add I don't want to act like I speak for my whole generation because everyone is different and it's slightly funny to even separate people this way, but as a young person from Buffalo who is pursuing higher education and eventually plan to enter the work force with the skills I've gained through my education I think that I am one of the people cities like Buffalo are looking to attract so here is my opinion. I want to live in a city that is dynamic and vibrant. I want it to be a place that has history and culture. I'm from the suburbs and the idea of living in a downtown loft/apartment sounds cool. High-rise buildings and cool shops and restaurants (not chain restaurant either) that are not linked together in a strip mall. New York City offers this, and Buffalo could too. I don't hate Buffalo for being suburban friendly but I think it needs to also cater to people who actually want to live downtown. We have cool areas but overall they don't link together well. When I'm in the city there is just this tired look to it like it has a bad head cold. If you have a chance to walk through downtown it's amazing how cool some of the buildings are then I look down and there's no one around except some homeless person eyeing me down deciding if they can scum some money out of me. I can't offer too many ways to fix this I think we're on the right track. I'm not asking Buffalo to be the huge mega city New York is but I want a more dynamic downtown that is a cool place to be and doesn't look like its recovering from a plague.

Also this is my first post I love this site I've been creeping here for awhile and just decided to register and join in the discussions

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Ontario Canada approx. 1500 feet from Buffalo NY
30% union workforce
13% V.A.T
Generous social safety net
More stringent health and safety environmental regulation
$10.50 per hour min. wage
More paid holidays
Home to one of the fastest growing population in North America
Have to ask why a large international corporation would move there vs. Buffalo 1500 feet away?

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Um...the answer is pretty simple. Its in another country. Those companies want to enter the Canadian market and the only serious competition Toronto has is Vancouver and Montreal.

Those same companies wishing to enter the US market however have NYC, LA, Chicago, plus many many other places before they would even think about Buffalo.

However, you are right. There is some spill over from Lower Ontario. Buffalo is a prime location for Canadian companies based in Toronto to enter the US market. And international companies who want their American and Canadian headquarters close together. We just need to better market ourselves as much.

replied to bung
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some of the problem too is that we just simply don't have the infrastructure to attract these out of town companies. If you havent noticed, the young work force wants more and more to be working in the city. What is going on in the Larkin District is great, but we are in desperate need of some new product. commercial space in the heart of downtown. If ONLY the skyway was being removed, the foot of the On-ramps at the edge of Canalside would be perfect for a fresh new mix-use building with large enough floorplates to attract new companies. 1 HSBC tower is years away from being attractive to anyone

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Buffalo has been good to me, so I can't imagine wanting to live anywhere else. Whenever I visit other cities, I am always happy to return home. I have a good, stable job here that I enjoy. I purchased my first home five years ago at 25. There is so much to do here, it's sometimes overwhelming to decide, especially during the summer. Even in the winter, there are plenty of cheap or free cultural activities.

Looking at my friends and acquaintances, I see a great number of other homeowners in their 20s who are doing quite well, and living very comfortable lives. Looking at these same people, a common thread is that most of them (including myself) somehow fell into their career, by chance or necessity. Very few of them decided on a career, went to college and obtained a degree in that major, and then found employment in that field. The majority of people I know who have followed that path have either left Buffalo with no plans of returning, or are struggling here, living at home with their parents.

I think one of Buffalo's major weaknesses in attracting or retaining young people is that with very few exceptions, it is difficult to pursue a specific career, and that is what most people are doing. Part of it is that people have unrealistic expectations when looking for a job after graduation, but part of it is the nature of the job market here, and I don't see that changing any time soon. If you are flexible and manage to somehow carve out a little niche for yourself here, you can live very well in Buffalo, but that approach will not be for everyone.

To say that young people are leaving Buffalo due to a lack of walkable neighborhoods or bike lanes just seems highly unrealistic to me.

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I am in the exact same boat as you and about the same age. I too kind of fell into my career but I made the most of it and have a lot to show for it. I also agree that many recent college grads have an unrealistic view of employment right after college. A degree doesn't guarantee, and shouldn't, a high paying job in your field right away. I've noticed a lot of them feel entitled to it. I feel you have to earn it from the bottom up and if that means taking a low paying job to get your foot in the door so be it. That experience cannot be taught in school regardelss of your field.

Buffalo is that kind of city. You definitely have to earn your keep to achieve the goals most strive for all their lives in bigger cities, but if you do it you can live a pretty decent lifestyle here and do so by the age of 30.

replied to r129
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That's a nice comment.

replied to r129
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That being said ...

Austin, Texas without the rose-colored glasses
http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38418

I don't entirely agree with the "It's all about jobs" commenters, but they do have a point.

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Jobs. Plain and simple. Young people might like everything about urbanity but needs come first and jobs are paramount on the needs list. I know tons of former high school classmates who would come back in an instant if they could bring thier job, which suggests that everything you claim about Buffalo has some draws. But no one moves out for a worse job. They move for a better one. And they won't move back for less pay and lower opportunities because they can walk to the Blue Monk. Sorry but once again the lack of any knowledge of urban and regional economics and a focus on what's good about Buffalo crushes the argument.

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Speaking as a young professional who has looked at returning home but remains in Philadelphia, I think some of the things people write as positives "ease of living, low cost housing, ability to be set and have cash in the bank at 30" are actually detrimental to a significant cross section of young professionals, and I don't mean those just out of undergraduate education. It's great to settle down and have a family, but what happens when you are a striver? What about those who enjoy competition? Not everyone just looks to be financially stable and ready to have kids and settle down. Not everyone is just happy having a hockey and football team in the league. There needs to be a greater emphasis on moving forward and demanding better or else many of those young professionals will continue to move to locations where there is a greater chance to achieve.

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When you are a striver and like to compete? First its hard to get jobs here..then its not competitive? (Limited number of good jobs, you'd assume competition would be more intense in Buffalo then Philly or NYC) Building assets and having cash in the bank are detriment?

WOW..its comments like that which contribute to the poor stereotypes of Millennials. Who says you have to settle down??..building assets is detrimental..think about that comment there for a 2nd. I'm Millennial as well and I'm concerned we're going to be more asset-less than the baby boomers. Its the poor person with that must live in metro-overpriced rich person playground-ville attitude thats the laughable.

If theres one I wouldn't trade for the world its that Buffalo isn't the cutthroat environment of your larger cities.

Fact of the matter is your comment and a lot of the others illustrate the "good job dicotomy" that Buffalo faces.. we do have good jobs (not vast ##'s like NYC or Chicago..in every field you could dream of)but to many people a good paying job that comes with lower costs to live is not good because its in Buffalo. Weird.

replied to nick
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By your logic Buffalo should be a better place to be a "striver". There's unlimited opportunities here for anyone looking to go beyond the basic 9-5 job, white picket fence and 2.3 kids lifestyle. Of course you have to figure out your niche but the opportunity is there for the taking.

Forgive me if I'm wrong about you, but it sounds as if your resentful towards people like r129 and myself who managed to get ahead of the game at a relatively younger age. I have noticed that many younger folks from Buffalo who move away seem to feel like they're conceding in some way if they move back. I used to feel that way myself. Then I realized it's stupid to beg for scraps in a large city when I could have the whole pie to myself here.

More power to you if you want to make it harder in a larger city but don't fault us for going straight for the jugular with what we want.

replied to nick
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I don't fault you, good for you for being happy in Buffalo, you're already there, there are thousands of young people from Buffalo, like myself who are not! I'm not saying I couldn't be happy in Buffalo, I'd love to have a big house off of Elmwood which would cost less than my 800sf trinity here in Philly. I also appreciate the opportunities of being a small fish in a big pond, rather than a big fish in a small pond. It's Cal Ripken baseball versus Little League, it's UB versus Penn. Just my take.

replied to brownteeth
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I'm not quite sure that I understand what a "striver" is, but just because you're relatively comfortable by 30 doesn't mean that you've stopped advancing in life, or that you're preparing to settle down and start a family. To me, living in Buffalo is not just about the Bills, the Sabres, chicken wings, or red sauce restaurants. It's about socializing with interesting people, music, art, theater, good food, plenty of opportunity for outdoor recreation, and lots of unique treasures. All of these things are so easily accessible, and most importantly, I have the time to enjoy them.

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I'm not quite sure that I understand what a "striver" is, but just because you're relatively comfortable by 30 doesn't mean that you've stopped advancing in life, or that you're preparing to settle down and start a family. To me, living in Buffalo is not just about the Bills, the Sabres, chicken wings, or red sauce restaurants. It's about socializing with interesting people, music, art, theater, good food, plenty of opportunity for outdoor recreation, and lots of unique treasures. All of these things are so easily accessible, and most importantly, I have the time to enjoy them.

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Moved to Portland, OR, twelve years ago and sometimes entertain the idea of moving back to be closer to family. Then I visit, and just go, "Ugh." The urban blight is just disgusting. 20,000 vacant, dilapidated houses???? Portland is 3x the size of Bflo and we have NONE. That's right, NONE. And NO vacancies downtown. Not one vacant storefront anywhere.
I can see by the huge number of comments there is a lot of love for Buffalo. I love it, too, but only to visit. There is definitely a leadership void. I can have any career I want in Portland. What few jobs are available in Bflo, are very limiting.
Portland is dependent on high tech. Intel, Epson, HP, Microsoft, Kyocera, Boeing, are the big employers. Nobody outside of Buffalo wants anything produced in Buffalo. Except the salt of the earth people, of course.
I can't tell you how many people I know in Buffalo STILL aren't on the internet!!!!!!
I don't know what the solution is...but I can tell you what the problem is. It isn't taxes, it isn't "Albany," - the problem with buffalo is also one of its assetts - it's people. I've never met such a backwards thinking person who puts all their effort into resisting change as a Buffalonian.
Nothing will ever change in Buffalo until the mondset of its people change.

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Ummm......I think you might want to a) get a new group of friends in Buffalo (particularly ones who use the internet) and b) who are changing Buffalo--they abound.

Also, hasn't Portland's unemployment rate been hovering at around 18%?

I know it is a great city, and one from which Buffalo could/should take some cues, but it does have its issues....and, your perspective on Buffalo frankly seems somewhat skewed. Give new Buffalo a chance--it is changing.

replied to gpod
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No vacant houses in PDX? Ever been to Killingsworth/Albertina neighborhood or anyplace in NE Portland? Ever been out by Parkrose High School, or in Gresham? You like the scum that hangs out at Pioneer Park downtown, or down by the Skidmore Fountain?

Portland's a nice city, unless you have kids and can't afford a place like Central Catholic or Jesuit. You'd send your kids to Jefferson or Grant or Marshall or Madison High? Why do you think Clackamas and Washington counties are growing so fast? It's families getting the hell out of PDX as fast as they can.

And good luck finding a house for less than $250K, or a decent place to rent.

replied to gpod
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One difference between Buffalo and Cleveland: Clevelanders are still in denial about their troubles (perhaps because so many of them live so far out in the suburbs that they don't view the city's issues as their issues).

Buffalonians KNOW Buffalo has a problem, even if they can't agree about what to do about it or what caused it.

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