PBN Responds to Proposed Erie Freight House Demolition

I think that other than a few die - hard preservation types, the overwhelming public support is going to go against this building. If the need is felt to reuse it, then save whatever parts of it can be saved and rebuild it somewhere else where it might actually serve some purpose. In its current state, it looks nothing like it did in its day. It has changed so much, it would wind up being about as authentic if it were rebuilt elsewhere than if it were restored in situ. Now all it's doing is holding up what could be the first tangible progress that might be made on the Buffalo River for far too long. Let's hope that somehow cool heads prevail on both sides and a whole lot of the type idiotic, lawsuit - laden shooting ourselves in the foot that seems to go on around here far too much in Buffalo.

And this is why I will never move back to Buffalo...

It may be historic...but its a shack people, a SHACK. Who's gunna be attracted to this type of architecture and come from all over to see it. This is not the martin house or larkin or statler or lafayette or any majorly significant building. It would have fallen apart to nothing otherwise.

There's no future for that old shack. NO FUTURE. Saving everything in sight on the hope that generations from now someone will actually do something meaningful with a distressed property is POINTLESS. Pick you battles more carefully, PBN.

This is absolutely a huge joke. Are preservationists trying to parody themselves now? If a new building was proposed for the waterfront that looked like this, PBN and the like would be screaming that it's ugly, low quality, doesn't relate to urban fabric etc. There is nothing redeeming or historical about this rusty industrial shed, which is far removed from the original building.

Let's move forward and not waste anyone's time or money with this BS, the developer is willing to put quality new builds in place.

I think it should be saved, at least in part. How can you just totally erase the LAST of it's kind? I don't think it's just a warehouse, if you take a closer look and see the yellow and green clapboard underneath, and see the big fat timber beams, with the giant bolts holding them together, you can feel the history and imagine the people that worked right there 150 years ago.

I know it's a matter of preference but I would rather live in a renovated Erie Canal Building than a new build apartment. The building has character and tells a story.

Build apartments, just use as much as can be used, it would not only add residential but history for people kayaking down the River instead of a bland apartment complex.

Attached to Savarino's letter to the City was also a letter from the architectural firm charged with assessing the structure and its possibilities for reuse.I beleive this study was done idependently of the engineer's assessment quoted in the original post about the Erie Freight House. Here is the text of the letter from Robert Stark AIA NCARB, partner in Chainteuil Jensen Stark:

July 16, 2012

Mr. Savarino:

We have made several visits to the Erie Freight House at 441 Ohio Street for the purpose of evaluating its current condition and to explore what the options might be for its renovation and reuse. As you know the building is currently in an advanced state of deterioration with several portions of the center roof structure collapsed into the building allowing snow and rain to penetrate into the lower level of the structure causing rotting and severe detrioration of both the first and second floor decks.

In our opinion the current state of the building is hazardous to anyone entering the structure. The collapsed roof - trussed have deteriorated beyond repair and appear to be exerting both downward forces in the second flor deck and lateral pressure on the exterior walls of the building which is bowing outward. In order to repair the roof at the center of the building these trusses would need to be completely replaced as well as essentially all of the floor decking in both the first and second floor of the entire building.

The north end of the building currently functions as loading docks. These docks appear to have been added to the building at some point after its use as a river "off-loading" facility. These docks are out of character with the historical nature of the building and it also appears that the one story 'north end" of the building was originally a two story building of the same sectional configuration of the rest of the structure. At some point in time this second story was removed, altering the original building configuration. The remaining one story portion is in a severe state of disrepair.

The south end of the building represents the most historically intact portion of the building in that it retains its original exterior profile and the roof structure and trusses and relatively intact. The south portion of the building has, however, been altered from its original configuration of a two story building. The center bays of the second floor have been removed to create a two story high space. This space has been reinforced with steel bracing and is relatively stable. It will, however, require significant work to re-align columns and trusses that over time have sagged and bowed to a point that will require repair.

The level of deterioration of the building will require significant resources to bring it to a level of repair that is safe to be occupied. The building covers almost the entire site. If resources are devoted to saving the building the next question becomes, what would its use be and more so where and what parking would be required for that use. In order for the building to be restored, a very significant portion of the structure would need to be razed to create space for parking.

Please contact me directly with any questions regarding thse observations and if you wish to further explore options for use of the site and existing building.

Let's break this down:

First, a developer who knows the ins and outs of preservation in Buffalo purchased a heritage building -- a protected one. The developer should either rehab the building in a way consistent with its heritage -- which would, I believe, enhance the waterfront and the neighborhood -- or re-sell it to someone who will.

Second, there are lots of opportunities for developing new housing of the type shown here in the Old First Ward. Including near the waterfront and including the Ohio Street corridor. But it doesn't need to be developed on the river itself.

Third: Underneath the sheet metal is the only remaining Erie Canal-era freight warehouse on Buffalo's waterfront, located at a strategic juncture of the former Ohio Basin (farthest point on the Erie Canal system) with the Buffalo River. That's exactly what's shown in the historic photo above.

Fourth: It has the potential to be preserved and reused. So it should be. The letter quoted in the comment above doesn't say the building can't be reused. And as for parking, although the building may completely occupy one specific parcel, there are other adjacent parcels -- the letter doesn't mention what other parking options were investigated.

So Savarino should be commended for being willing to bring so much investment to the Ward, but encouraged to develop nearby and let this building be reused (if not do it himself). The two projects would then be mutually reinforcing in their enhancement of the Ohio Street corridor, Ward, and city -- at every level of which heritage is important, and needs to be protected. That's especially so in the Ward, where so much of its heritage is tied to the canal.

That kind of win-win would be to everyone's benefit and would generate an especial level of enthusiasm.

Here is the text of Savarino's letter to the City on behalf of the Owner 441 Ohio Street, LLC. This letter, the letters from the architect and engineer as well as plans and photgraphs of the existing condition of the former freight house have been widely circulated over the past several months. I received them from two seperate sources.

July 26, 2012

Dear Commisioner Comerford:

I am writing you as agent for 441 Ohio Street, LLC ("441LLC"). 441LLC holds title to the referenced property. 441LLC recently purchased this property from Great Lakes Paper Fibres Corp.

The property was condemned by the City of Buffalo prior to its purchase by 441LLC. After the property was purchased your department requested that we erect a temporary fence around the site which we have done. Your department also requested that we promptly engage professionals to make an assessment of the property and to provide you with a preliminary determination of our future plans for its use.

We engaged the architectural firm of Chaintreuil Jensen Stark ("CJC") to guide us in examining all reasonable uses for the property including rehabilitation of the existing building which sits upon much of the property. We also engaged Tredo Engineers to provide us with an engineering analysis of the building.

We regret to report that, save for the foundations, the building is beyond salvation. The center section of existing building has collapsed. The North and South portions of the existing building are in poor condition and have been historically compromised be relatively recent renovations. It is likely that full rehabilitation of the building is not feasible and would not allow the property to meet minimum parking requirements.

Attached you will find a survey of the property and a summary engineering report of the property prepared by Tredo Engineers. The report concludes that the building should be demolished down to the foundations.

We have also included correspondence and exhibits from CJS concerning our investigation of rehabilitation options. This includes photographs of the existing building conditions.

We recently prepared preliminary design documents for a residential project to be constructed upon and within the foundations of the existing building. These documents are attached. We are prepared to move forward to develop and construct the project as exhibited.

We await your further direction.

Sincerely,

Samuel J. Savarino, 441 Ohio Street, LLC

Save it!

Show of hands here please:

All those in favor of a $15,000,000 of private investment in a residential project on the foundations of a former historic structure that appears to include public water access?

All those in favor of an restoration of a badly deteriorated and "historically compromised" structure (the developer's term I know) that would likely require many millions of public funds for a yet to be defined use?

I wonder where this is headed. Who would I contact to reserve a unit?

Mr. Connors states that in his opinion the structure has great potential for mixed uses and community waterside attraction. What uses? What attraction? Specifics, please.

This warehouse is too far off the beaten path, imo, to attract public use related to Canalside for the foreseeable future. The second story of the train terminal, for example, is much closer, larger, structurally very sound, affords great access and views to the river and yet it sits vacant decade after decade. At least there is likelihood of the train terminal conversion to some public attraction as canalside grows. But Ohio Street? That's quite a bit further. And once we finally figure out some public use for the train terminal, what other use will we devise for this?

Cost aside, if the structure were in perfect condition, tenanting it would be a challenge. Who shall pay, and to what end?

With all due respect Hamp...

Look at the pictures of the former freight house that are used in the Landmark proposal and in the BR post. Then take a look at the remains of the freight house as it currents sits. One third of te building had the second floor removed so it bears no resemblence to the original, the other end has none of the exterior fenestrations left and has been gutted from the inside. The middle third has totally collapsed. What's to save?

I agree with the argument that the building has a pedigree and it represents that last of its type of building in Buffalo. The sad fact is that there appears to be little left of it.

Its more like asking a property owner to reconstruct what WAS there than to restore what IS there.

While I am at it here I want to clarify what I said in an earlier post. It appears that Savarino's group contracted to purchase the property AFTER it was condemned but BEFORE it was proposed as a Landmark to the Preservation Board.

To me, this is more about adhering to landmark laws (and, this one falls under local, which is the most stringent) than the particular building (yes, the fact that it is one of a kind is crucial, and should be noted).

More experienced folk, who are architects/preservationists/etc., have determined that the building was reusable and appropriate for a local landmark destination. I trust their POV more than others (like myself) who a) are not in the trade and b) have not been inside.

Yes, Savarino now has another consultant's approach, but it would not be the first time to have results delivered to correspond with a developer's interests.

More to the point, we have a local landmark designation on this building--are we going to respect that? Or, are we going to allow another midnight special, as Comerford and the Toronto developer egregiously did with the cigar building on Main St?

That was a shady, shady action on there part. I'd like to see another independent assessment of this building done. And, yes, I do believe a restaurant, market, etc. would create for more public usage and, in turn, more foot traffic to the area. Build these units elsewhere, as others have proposed.

Someone else can correct me here but this building has been condemned for some time now. The question of whether it is a threat to public safety has already been asked and answered hasn't it?

What authority does the Preservation Board have here other than to hold hearings or suggest other uses or redevelopment plans? I don't think they can stop a demolition.

The building has partially collapsed and it looks like it may not make it through the winter.

Given the situation that all parties involved knew the property was important to Buffalos extremely important waterfront history they should have commisioned the structural study prior to purchasing it. Do you think they did?

Not to get off topic but what is happening with "The Cooperage" I know Clint Brown has big plans for it but has been waiting for the state. That is supposed to be mixed use with storefront and condos. This has been in the works for some time and it would be good to hear that this gets done as well.

let the preservationist save this crap building. because if they stop the demo it will just fall down on its own in no time because its that bad. save save save!!!

Thinking about it some more, I see no problem in either case. Would definitely need some further analysis, but if one were to have enough funding, they could easily turn what we see now as a dilapidated structure into something much akin to the Findlay Market in Cincinnati. If, what they say is true above, as long as the structure is still in tact, the rest is inconsequential (and of course would come with a lofty price tag). If done properly, it would undoubtedly bring the masses.

I guess the question now is whether anyone is interested in this as an alternative means of investment.

Anyone have a few mil I can borrow?

Just because this building could be salvaged doesn't mean it should or can be. What is the return on the investment to keep this building standing? This is not the Web Building which was a great candidate for adaptive reuse in a "prime" location. This building doesn't have the floor plan for reuse of anything besides warehousing or performance space, well there's plenty of those and it's not a profitable proposition. Just saying it could be saved and reused isn't good enough, people need to take Monopoly 101, that's really how the real estate world works. This is a piece of real estate, it has little value or utility, and little hope for those.

Are politicians and public officials so spineless that they cannot stand up to the PBN ( http://www.preservationbuffaloniagara.org/about-us/our-mission-and-bylaws/ ) and say with authority this building is a public nuisance and community safety hazard and must be removed? Seriously, what authority does the PBN have in this matter? After reading their By-Laws I'd say NO AUTHORITY! They must be pretty well connected to the "power players" ... maybe they even put "their people" in their places of authority ... not sure why else an engineer in the City of Buffalo or his boss for that matter would become paralyzed whenever they open their mouth.

You "smart people" with your fancy talk and higher purpose than the rest of us (trust me, I'm glad I don't "get it") really frustrate me and it sounds like many others are frustrated by you too.

This is pitiful.

HOLY SHIT... this is ridiculous !

I'm all for preserving what should be preserved.
This should not be...

I love what Savarino wants to do. DO IT !

>So, until you pro-demo, anti-vision people can get a little more creative then, yes, I fully subscribe to PBN's approach.

So in other words, you make a lot of noise, and when someone else comes along for whom it makes economic sense to save something, you take credit?

Preserve a freight house that will sit empty, or build new five-story, 48-unit apartment buildings...

That's a tough one... Hmm ?!?!?

Salvage the Timbers and re-use them in the construction of the public market at Canalside.

this is EXACTLY why the preservationists are labeled obstructionists. They should fight the "good fight" for buildings that are savable AND worth saving!

So by my count this is what they're trying to save: This property, the Trico, the bethlehem office building, the condemned houses near the peace bridge and the smoke shop on main (too late)

Forgive my niaveness but are any of thee buildings that spectacular ?

I kayaked by that building a few weeks ago. It has a cool history but it needs to go. It might be a different story if it wasn't half-collapsed already!

This project could go a long way to revitalizing the First Ward. It's so close to down town. The project would be a major step up for the property and the biggest investment in the neighborhood in probably 50 years. You can walk to the new park up the street. We walked to the Swannie House when we were there. Its an amazing location and I hope this goes forward.

It's time to let this one go. The preservationists need to refocus their effort where it's worthwhile.

PRESERVE! PRESERVE! PRESERVE!
DEMO! DEMO! DEMO!
It's like the scene in "Victory" where the fans are shouting across the stadium at each other.

Clearly everyone has the best interests of Buffalo at heart, and it's shocking to see how the two sides refuse to view each other's stances. I may count myself among you at times.

Saltecks- Great idea to salvage it for creative reuse. How about disassembling it and donating to a heritage museum like Amherst Museum or Genesee Village? What a great addition that would make with a faux railyard or canal.

I live in a town where there are a lot of old buildings-many beyond repair, or in areas where they have little present day value. Bottom line is, some buildings were not built to withstand time, and resurrecting these structures or bringing them up to code is so cost prohibitive that the only way forward may be to remove it, redevelop it, and re-educate through interpretive walkways, etc.

Please.

When you equate this building with Shea's, or the Richardson complex, or the Central Terminal, or the Martin House, the Trico building or other structures of historical import, you lose all credibility.

It's a warehouse that has deteriorated past the point of saving. It's not the Lafayette, the Statler, or anything like it.

Reuse what wood is salvagable, and build something that will bring people and much-needed tax revenue to a blighted, under-used section of the city.

So...maintain a crumbling wearhouse, with zero architectural appeal, and has been bastardized throughout the years, or build new residential buildings?! It's a no brainer - develop that land and get people living on the waterfront! That is, unless someone else has immediate funds and plans for the space. I doubt they do.

I have worked with AIA’s and PE’s but have never encountered an AIA with a PE – impressive.

I would speculate that he may possible know what he is talking about and is clearly being diplomatic in his recommendation letter.

I, on the other hand, believe the civil war era timbers, which remain salvageable, should be removed by someone as-like Buffalo Reuse or, better yet, Michael Gainer (Buffalo ReAct) and sold as architectural salvage on the open market.

just a quick reminder in this debate that high style/heavy ornamentation are not the sole criteria by which to assess the value of a given building.

In the first BR article Savarino was quoted as saying that they planned to salvage the timber.

This ranks up there with the grain silos, maybe higher since it's the last of its kind. If you believe the silos should be saved, you'll want to save this. If you believe the silos no longer serve any purpose, you'll want to demo this too.

I took a pic from 2 years ago and it was not nearly this bad. take a look. http://i.imgur.com/7VzzG.jpg

Amazing how the roof lasted 150 Buffalo winters and JUST now collapsed.

that's bunk JM. that roof has been caved in for at least 2 years. the boiler fell into the river around 5 years ago. your definition of JUST is a little off my friend.

a sealed building with no real guts (utilities) can last a long time. once the weather gets in a wooden structure its a slippery slope to ruin.

comical how much attention something like this gets from the monday morning qb's. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE research buildings that are significant and get out there proactively and make sure property owners are taking care of historically significant bldgs. either that or invent a time machine and roll us all back a few years!

I moved to Buffalo in 1999 from Europe and I have always been for preserving historic buildings in Buffalo but this is crazy. It's a metal shack! If a 100 years from now the blue Buffalo Creek Casino shack survives, would some of you be for reusing it?

why not move the structure to canal side and use it as a market there and go forward with the plans for the housing. From as aesthetic standpoint I don't see anything special about the building but I appreciate the historical nature of it. if given the right care and put to the right use maybe it could have a second chance at life. I just think that we need more housing like the building proposed minus the car port first floors. The ground floor should all be open for retail or restaurants to make a nice if small boardwalk. look into adding a floor or squeezing a few more units in and the project is perfect

Stupid. Preservation Buffalo Niagara in straight stupid. Instead of throwing a temper tantrum every time a "historic" building is "threatened" with demolition, why don't they poney up and doing something productive and proactive - develop tools such as a low-interest revolving loan fund to help restore buildings, etc.

They are a useless bunch of whiners.

I actually find it overwhelmingly funny that Savarino - the self declared champion of preservation is now battling them. So many articles on this site about the heroics of Savarino on preservation projects and the obligatory hyped up reviews of his bars - really pay twice the price for an average German beer and a mediocre sandwich - especially now that the good chef left ... But rent on office to Rising and you get a great review. Where is Jewel / Newel and his white horse to save this historic shed. I believe a train that President McKinley traveled on before he was shoot her in Buffalo actually was repaired in a building similar to this ... We must save it. Where are the angry mobs boycotting Savarino's business? Where are the picket lines out in front of the soon to be built comedy club after Superscript Sam raped and pillaged the prior establishments so he could take the space back ... Where is justice?

For the record, I am for progress and detest hypocrites.

Save Sam. No save the shed. No save your public money from funding another on of Savarino's over hyped but under performed ventures. Really, lets dedicate public funds to worthy projects.

Buffalo Progress where did you read that public funds were being used for the apartments?

A roll of duct tape would never find a better use than to close your mouth. YOUR the dangerous one.

So you think you have the straight dope on the Mississippi Street Bars being "raped" by Savarino? Check your facts pal. Anyone familiar with those establishments knows how poorly they were doing ... I can only imagine how poorly they did paying their rent.

Use these opportunities to post on the topic at hand to actually POST ON THE TOPIC AT HAND and not your on personal vendetta against individuals. You're a small person hiding behind a screen name and taking cheap shots at people.

Good day.

Buffalo Rules - Really .. Really ..

Fact One - the building at the corner of Mississippi & Perry has One major tenant - Empire State Regional Development Western New York Regional Office. The rent for those offices is paid for with taxpayer money ... is it not?

And I also read in this article - "It represents a private investment of $15,000,000 and perhaps the first return on the public funds committed to the link between downtown Buffalo and the Outer Harbor"
I believe the word PUBLIC may actually mean public.

As for the duct tape .. if you can't keep up intellectually - resort to idle childish threats. I am educated, well read and writing about my opinion on a subject . .if that is dangerous - compared to a threat of duct tape .. I am also amazed.

"Straight Dope" on Mississippi Street - they were doing poorly, absolutely. And the Landlord took over all the improvements, took guarantees on relatives and did his job - he now inherits all the improvements and can open his comedy club. Well done ...

Posting on the topic at hand .. I guess a quote from the article and a general view of the hypocritical nature of the Preservation Champion from articles past now looking to tear down a historical building ... is not on topic. My apologies to your delicate sense of what we are allowed to post on.

Let's see -
Duct Tape
Dangerous
small person

Is this your shopping list or simply a not so well hidden low self opinion.

No cheap shots - just facts.

It is a very good day.