Real Estate October 8, 2012 12:30 AM

Catholic Health System Eyes Genesee/Oak Property

Catholic Health System Eyes Genesee/Oak Property
Catholic Health System is looking to move downtown.  The area's second largest hospital system wants to consolidate it corporate and administrative offices and is eyeing a vacant parcel at Genesee and Oak Streets controlled by Uniland Development Company for the new building.  A consolidation at the site would bring upwards of 700 workers downtown that are currently scattered at a number of city and suburban sites.  Details on the design of the new building have not been released but is expected to be about 120,000 sq.ft.

Buffalo Business First's James Fink has the story:

The [Catholic Health] board of directors agreed Sept. 27 to build in Buffalo after considering other options in the suburbs, some with handsome incentive packages. Catholic Health officials declined to identify the site, but several sources confirmed that it's a vacant parcel in the Elm-Oak corridor, commonly referred to as "Block 21." The parcel is located along Elm, Oak and Genesee streets, just as motorists come off the Kensington Expressway.

Block21B.jpg
Catholic Health is a non-profit healthcare system that provides care to Western New Yorkers across a network of hospitals, primary care centers, and other medical facilities.  It has more than 8,200 full and part-time associates and 1,200 physicians.

The deal appears solid.  Uniland is said to be close to buying a nearby property that would be used for parking needed for Catholic Health employees.

Uniland's Block 21 is the last undeveloped site in the Elm-Oak Corridor/Buffalo Technology Campus.  Nearly all of the properties between Elm and Oak streets were demolished in the 1950s to prepare for an above grade expressway link between the I-190 and the Kensington Expressway.  That plan was dropped and in the late 1970's both Elm and Oak were widened and synchronized traffic signals installed to smooth traffic flow.  

The City shortly thereafter began planning for a suburban-like business park on the empty corridor parcels hoping to attract office, research and high tech companies.  Starting in 1982, Uniland Development renovated one building and constructed ten others plus a parking ramp on the blocks between Clinton and Goodell streets.  

Uniland has floated a number of plans for the 3.1 acre site that Catholic Health is considering.  In the late-1980's, plans called for a seven-story building on the parcel.  In 2004, Uniland proposed a three-story, 150,000 sq.ft. building.  

The parcel represents both a challenge and an opportunity.  The property is a gateway to downtown and the Buffalo Niagara Medical Campus at the base of the Kensington Expressway on/off ramps.  It offers four-sided visibility to the expressway, Genesee Street, and Elm and Oak streets.  More importantly, a properly-designed project can help bridge downtown and the Medical Campus to the near east side.

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The site plan for the property on Uniland's website is likely only a placeholder but does a number of things wrong.  It turns its back on downtown, puts parking at the corner of Genesee and Oak, and is completely disengaged from the street.  Uniland has proven it has urban sensibilities, see 285 Delaware Avenue and Avant.  This one needs to be done right.
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Uniland has been doing some good work lately. I can't beleive they would follow through with a plan like this one.

Score: 6 ( 20 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Ample parking!

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Are you sure the Senecas didn't draw that site plan?

Score: 16 ( 22 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

If CHS needs 120,000 sf, that's even smaller than the 150,000 sf placemarker in the last diagram.

This plot is either going to end up a a sea of parking, a bland single-story structure, or both.

Best we can hope for is that the parcel will be subdivided or an expansion plan is taken into consideration in the design.

Score: 3 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

While I'm glad that CHS is consolidating downtown, I hope they don't feel that's doing enough of a favor for DT that it doesn't really matter what they build. It certainly does matter what they build. The last thing we need is to be building on the old "iceberg floating in a sea of parking" model, even if that was the model in the rest of the Oak/Elm corridor. DT will be better off if those mistakes are undone over time, and perpetuated.

CHS & Uniland, this is a chance to do something better for DT and the medical campus/near-medical-campus. Lots of folks would be glad to work with you to vastly improve what's shown here. Seeing this for the first time, the first thing that comes to mind is creating an architectural front on Genesee Street, enhancing the downtrodden streetscape of one of Buffalo's most important radial streets.

Don't blow this!

Score: 11 ( 19 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Agreed, completely.

I have been secretly hoping that slowly we would be able to undo the horrid newbuilds along that corridor--not just add more to the mix.

Help Green Code!

replied to RaChaCha
Score: 8 ( 16 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Yep, agreed. Sitting today I can look out and see that grass, and as depressing as it is, I hate looking across the street from it at the ridiculous ECIDA 1-storey suburban junk.

Please someone find out what the street used to look like here and rebuild that, even as a facade. Put in space for a deli and a dry cleaner and I'd be thrilled.

replied to RaChaCha
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The bldg where ECIDA is located is a BUNKER! Seriously, I walked over there for a meeting one day and had to walk almost completely around it before I found the one way in, which was -- you guessed it -- off the parking lot.

replied to Jesse
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The City shortly thereafter began planning for a suburban-like business park on the empty corridor parcels hoping to attract office, research and high-tech companies.

So how's that going--?

Seriously, I'm trying to picture someone trying to recruit a high-tech company to Buffalo, and bringing them to the Oak-Elm corridor. But just as quickly I'm going to stop trying to picture that, as it's a horror.

Design and planning DO MATTER, people -- an it's not just about being grounded in the past, but even more importantly about our investment in our future.

With apologies to the memory of my friend the late Erie County Planner Mike Krasner, who worked on the Oak/Elm project.

Score: 4 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

A tax exempt religious affiliated non-profit should be held to a very high standard.

CHS should do the right thing and build something that adds to the city's vitality. That means following the Green Code, building to the sidewalk, with urban density and pedestrian access.

We don't need more suburban buildings surrounded by parking. Those kinds of buildings do not help the city. They detract from it.

Score: 8 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Steel - I think you're looking at the photo upside down. If you match up the exit and entrance ramps of the 198 the curved part of the building would be facing DT, with the back along the corner of Genesee and Elm and the parking would be set back and along the exit of the 198 (Oak/Goodell split). While it looks like there is some parking at Genesee and Oak, the building does appear to be at Genesee at Oak.

While this doesn't make the placeholder OK...just wanted to point out that it is backward especially when you compare it to the Google Earth images.

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mec>"the building does appear to be at Genesee at Oak"

At the article's Uniland link there's another link to a marketing flyer on which the streets are labeled. Not sure if that means any interpretation is upside down or not, but it explains the diagram. It's also marked 'build to suit'.
It's at bottom of page 2 at
http://uniland.com/pdf/uploads/BTC%20144%20Genesee_Fact%20Sheet.pdf

replied to mec
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The question that begs to be answered is how many buildings throughout Buffalo will be vacated and possibly abandoned because the Catholic Health System has decided to consolidate?

Why not secure funds for upgrading St Elisabeth’s Home in Lancaster or, better yet, St Vincent’s in Dunkirk? Both of these seem to be off the radar because neither falls into the category of skilled nursing or assisted living because they are classified as adult homes.

However, both have provided care for those of any age in need of assistance for the past 50-60 years and whose residents have now, literally, aged-out and probably should be in long-term care.

It seems the mission statement of caring for those who cannot care for themselves has been replaced with six-figure salaries and politics while the clinical staff tries to make the impossible happen on a shoe string budget; especially those working in the continued care division and are truly the modern day Florence Nightingales of the 21st Century.

Yes, I know there is no mission without profit but the mission died when St Francis of Buffalo was shut down – Fortunately, a consortium of doctor’s, dedicated to inner city health care, relocated from ECMC Campus and resurrected the building.

The argument may be Our Lady of Victory but that one shining example was completed (single-handedly)by the tenacity and perseverance of one of the most unique, albeit controversial, woman I have ever had the pleasure to work with and I was once compared too in my belief in the CHS mission statement.

However, I would never place myself in her category but it was a compliment that I never expected and probably will never receive again.

Score: -1 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Regarding the lead.

Avant may be a lot better than the Federal Building it replaced. But it's not very "urban".

Instead of extending the building to the Delaware Ave. sidewalk, the developers installed a wall of suburban bushes to block off the building from the general public. That was a missed opportunity. And it detracts from what could have been a nicer pedestrian experience.

"Build to the sidewalk" is not just a cute expression planners like to say. It helps create density and vitality that attracts people and businesses to city centers.

Score: -2 ( 16 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

save the grass...

Score: 7 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

And the neon penises. Wouldn't Catholic Health Services love THAT on their front lawn, lol.

replied to buffloonitick
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Just don't think those thousands of employees will have access to any form of birth control as part of their health insurance package.

replied to DeanerPPX
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They will have PLENTY of cheap/free access to birth control, just not as part of their insurance plans. I won't go into all of the ways people can get birth control for cheap/free through various means - and it is not necessary for the fed government to force this on a religious institution. Noone is denying access to anyone for anything. Come on now. Use your brain I know you have one.

replied to Rand503
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As long as those means don't have ANY connection to the church whatsoever. It's bad enough the church throws its weight around to force politics into their favor (while enjoying tax-free status and near-complete freedom from government intervention).

Now the church is severing all ties to Komen because Komen supports breast exams at Planned Parenthood.

It's not enough to keep government out of the church while the church keeps its hands firmly embedded in government. They won't be happy until everything they disagree with is at least seven degrees of separation from anything they touch.

replied to Tim
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Actually they do provide birth control as part of their health insurance. If I recall correctly, they were forced to provide it by NYS law. They didn't contest it because of potential lawsuits and because of potentially severe employee discontent. That isn't unexpected in a system that is predominantly made up of female employees. They do have a little blurb on the bottom of the page in the benefits guide explaining why they are only providing it because they are required to despite it being against church teaching.

replied to Tim
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Actually, they DON'T provide birth control or contraceptive measures in there healthcare plan...my wife has worked for Catholic Health for over 9 years...

replied to pampiniform
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I have numerous family members who work from them and they have confirmed that they do cover contraceptives/birth control.

replied to irishmedic716
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then i'm sure you don't mind if your jehovah's witness employer doesn't have to cover your blood transfusion, and your buddhist employer doesn't have to cover any diseases associated with the consumption of animal flesh, and your muslim employer doesn't have to cover rehab for alcoholism...

replied to Tim
Score: 3 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Holy Moses, I'm just excited to see something on this lot. Let's encourage a proper development but not stifle the project so they take one of the handsome suburban offers.

Score: 5 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Get rid of the exit ramp/flyover from the 33 that cuts through the site.
That will help make for a better connection to the BNMC.

Score: -2 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

yeah, the iceberg-in-a-sea-of-parking (good analogy, rachacha) is pretty bad.

however, the small consolation is that someone is actually building on -vacant land- and not insisting on demolishing a viable building.

Score: 2 ( 6 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I think everyone is focussed just on the site but its really the fault of the expressway.

I've said many times before that the Kensington Expressway should end at Jefferson/Best.PERIOD. Restore the Humboldt Parkway entrance to/exit from the city.

A Parkway would demand a completely different experience and architectural design. This should be part of everyone's argument. You can integrate the new building with the Life Sciences Campus across a parkway,,,but an expressway has an attitude far closer to HealthNow...ie we want to be downtown but not part of downtown so put us next to an access ramp.

Replace Elm/Oak with Jefferson and you can add the entire near Easside back to downtown for future growth. This is really what everyone wants...besides we have far to many access ramps to center city....its like having to many leaches sucking blood from the patient and wondering why the patient isn't getting better

Score: 2 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

SEVEN hundred people with permanent jobs being moved to downtown Buffalo !!! And people are BITCHING !!!

Score: 3 ( 27 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Increasing jobs in the city and smart, urban design are not mutually exclusive. Buffalo needs to evolve from the concept of "ANY development is good development", as most cities around the world have done.

replied to bobbyraz49
Score: 11 ( 15 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

You qualify for Obama's cabinet with that logic. BobbyRaz is right, jobs trump everything. Jobs bring customers to restaurants, profits bring donations to the Philharmonic, the City Mission, etc. Economic growth makes preservation an option, not the other way around.

replied to Travelrrr
Score: -11 ( 23 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

First, no one is disagreeing with you. Our point is that you can have jobs AND also historic preservation and good urban design. AFterall, it's how our cities were built over the past 200 years, and are currently built every where else.

Second, the culturals and non profits are themselves generators of economic activity. The BPO alone is responsible for millions of dollars of economic activity, when you consider ticket sales, restaurant sales, parking sales, CD sales, employment for about 100 people, who also recycle their money into the community, and so on. Donations are only a small part of their revenue stream.

replied to benfranklin
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rand>"The BPO alone is responsible for millions of dollars of economic activity"

Huh? Although it's nice that the BPO exists for people who like it (just as it's nice that casinos and beer stores exist for people who like those), if the BPO didn't exist the "millions" that are spent on tickets, parking, and CDs, would instead be spent on other entertainment, leisure, restaurant dining, events, etc.

One could argue that spending from the Canadian portion of BPO attendees is economic activity that probably otherwise wouldn't happen here - same as can be argued for Canadian customers of Bills, Sabres, downtown casino, Galleria, etc - but not so for money from most of their local customers.

replied to Rand503
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So, if the BPO ceases operation, concert goers would instead spend their money on restaurants and the like? If you think all such activities are interchangeable then you don't understand the importance of culture in a community.

replied to whatever
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That argument doesn't make any sense. What Whatever was arguing is that if the BPO weren't there, people would have to spend their money elsewhere. It's a pretty good bet that most people who see an average BPO concert are local people, so it's not really an means of generating wealth as much as a matter of redistributing money already in the community. If they don't have that option to spend their money that way, then they'll spend it somewhere else. What difference does it make whether it is something cultural versus going to a restaurant?

replied to PaulBuffalo
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While I think some people would spend money on other things, others won't spend it at all because going to a restaurant is not equivalent to attending a concert.

replied to pampiniform
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How is going out to a restaurant not equivalent to going to a concert? It would seem both involve spending some of your money on something to entertain you. What's so different about the BPO? Wouldn't people have to find something else to do with their time if they can't see the orchestra?

replied to PaulBuffalo
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It's not the same experience. The stimulation one receives at a concert is different than what experiences at a restaurant. If one is passionate about classical music, nothing replaces the feeling that can be obtained in a large concert hall. Of course, if the BPO ceased to exist, I guess one could spend money drowning sorrows at the local bar.

replied to pampiniform
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paul>"others won't spend it at all"

Ever on anything?
Perhaps, but it sounds like an extreme case if people who go out for 10 or 20 events per year at BPO would stay home instead of so many other options for cultural, leisure, and entertainment. Even for people who don't want to dine out more, they could become members of more museums or galleries, or attend other types of concerts, or plays, … lots of possibilities.

But for those who really won't do anything else, then I suppose that money could grow with interest or cap gains and eventually their heirs might spend an even larger amount in the economy here. Perhaps your point is also true of some ticket buyers for Bills or Sabres, that if the teams weren't here they'd just not spend the money on anything. While I can't prove it, I'd guess it's a pretty small portion for all of those including BPO, considering the wide range of things to do - even though each thing may be very unique and special in its own way.

In some other cities, classical music orgs have closed up. I wonder if local GDP's have dropped by millions in those places the year after. (again, I'm replying only to rand's economic claim, not questioning the niceness of BPO for those who like it)

replied to PaulBuffalo
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GDP is the measure of economic activity. And yes, if the BPO goes out of business, it's a contraction in the economic activity.

And the opposite is true. The more music organizations, then the more economic activity. Of course, you do have a point -- some of the money would be spent elsewhere. But we are looking at the total activity. Lose the employees of the BPO, and that's a total loss of those workers. Plus, all the suppliers of the BPO will have a reduction in economic activity -- people who provide tickets, programs, resin for the bows of the string instruments, less gas tax because they won't be driving to rehearsals, an empty Kleinhans that could be obtaining rental income.

All these transactions are taxed and counted as GDP, and that would be gone. That's a loss for everyone. It isn't just people buying tickets -- there is an entire industry behind such an enterprise.

replied to whatever
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Rand, yes but $ for BPO (which ultimately pays musicians, staff, ticket takers, etc) I would guess comes by far mostly from local sources such as local ticket buyers, local donors, and Erie County govt taxpayer funds. As for the Bills, Sabres, casino, etc, no doubt there's some Canadians - no argument about that part, although it's small compared to local sources.

So the GDP aspect would be a hypothetical question of how much of all that local $ would be spent here regardless in replacement economic activity spread out among many different things.
Certainly all of the Erie County govt money would stay here.
As for ticket sales and donors, we could only guess. You and I are in agreement that it's more than zero percent which would be spent anyway and I admit it's probably less than 100%. That leaves a pretty wide range between 0 and 100.

It's where you first said "millions" would be lost is what I'd doubt.
Millions over what kind of time frame?

replied to Rand503
Score: -1 ( 1 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Not necessarily. If the BPO didn't exist, you can't assume that the same people who would have went to a concert would have gone out to something else, paid for those tickets and for a restaurant.

In fact, if you take your argument literally, it would mean that you could eliminate every economic entity and claim it would not decrease the total amount of economic activity.

The BPO has a payroll of dozens of people. You eliminate that, and you eliminate plenty of taxes, and you put a lot of people on the unemployment line. They won't be spending money on lots of things, and the economy contracts.

It's basic Econ 101.

replied to whatever
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Yep, the question would be what portion of local $ would still be spent anyway locally. We agree more than 0 would, and I will agree not quite 100% would, but how much is the q.

This reminds me a lot of the debate about the Bills impact on local economy (but minus the factor of the NFL's TV contract nonlocal revenue funding much of their heavily NYS-taxed payroll $130M+ per year).

replied to Rand503
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It is good - its consolidating people from the city and suburbs...I wonder how many actual jobs they will be bringing in...

replied to bobbyraz49
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In case you missed the memo, let me fill you in.

Buffalo is no longer begging for ANY development. We want quality that makes a difference.
A building that is connected to the rest of downtown, with sidewalks and urban architecture.


Building a poorly designed development (and with no new jobs in this case) is worse than doing nothing.

replied to bobbyraz49
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They should complete the 33/190 connection (via overpass if needed) and downgrade oak and elm to something not resembling a racetrack

Score: -11 ( 19 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Why on earth do they need to complete the 33/190 connection? So more people can bypass downtown while we destroy more of our neighborhoods with a new expressway. Where are you from, 1962?!

replied to NorthBuf
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Right, because the people using elm/oak to get to the 190 stop all the time in the city. Hell, even when I'm in a rush to get to the southtowns I do it. There's zero reason to stop on that side of the city if you don't need gas on your way to the 190.

You know who said, "It's so nice over on oak, we should swing over to elmwood to get some coffee." No one.

You either need to downgrade the whole 33 (way back to the 198 connection or admit the fact that elm/oak are nothing more than connections between 33/190 and the only thing on that section of road are bunkers. You'd need to slow traffic down on that area to fix it and those are the 2 ways to do it. If you do downgrade 33 at 198, it's not going to bring more people into the city, it'll push people onto the 90 instead of using 33/190 as a cut.

replied to townline
Score: -7 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Elm-Oak should serve downtown, not passers by. Why do we need to make sure people can get quickly from the 33 to the 190?

Just slow down Elm-Oak and be done with it. 33 is serving its purpose by transporting people from the north and east TO downtown. Not THROUGH downtown.

If we were to do that, it would rank as one of Buffalo's stupidest projects, all time.

Downtown is the center - its not there to serve people moving from one part of the region to the other. The region should be feeding downtown, not the other way around.

replied to NorthBuf
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And with the 33 in place as it is today there is zero chance of oak/elm serving downtown regardless of traffic calming techniques. It will always be a connection devoid of typical urban life

replied to townline
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Why? Because its a busy street? That is absolutely false.

replied to NorthBuf
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The WSC died because residents stood up for themselves to kill a senseless development - sound familiar to Prospect Hill?

I don't mean to pour on what Greenca and townline have already thrown at you, but any sort of elevated roadway is the last thing this city needs. Especially cutting east/west through a variety of neighborhoods. Any idea advocating more highways is a horrible idea for a region with a shrinking population. I can't believe I read that, it makes me want to crawl back into bed and start the day over again.

replied to NorthBuf
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While we're at it, since common sense has determined the WSC to be an awful idea and wont' ever happen, can we get rid of the 4-city-block-consuming Niagara offramp? It's great getting dumped 4 blocks from home but it's ridiculous how an offramp consumes literally 4 city blocks.

Here Northbuf:

http://archives.buffalorising.com/story/a_new_way_of_thinking_disaster

replied to LouisTully
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There are currently a variety of ways to get from the north of Buffalo to the southtowns. the number of people who would benefit from yet another access is tiny, and not enough to justify the costs.

replied to NorthBuf
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Complete the 33/190 connection??? Yes, that's just what downtown needs. The 190 cuts off the core of downtown from the waterfront, so it makes perfect sense to ring it on the eastside by NorthBuf's expressway? Why not resurrect the idea of the West Side Connector that would have gone through Allentown to the Niagara St entrance ramp to the 190. This could be Buffalo's inner loop, which worked so well for Rochester. Did Robert Moses crawl his way out of his grave? I thought this thinking died a deserved death in the 1970s.

replied to NorthBuf
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"They should complete the 33/190 connection"

That's the worst idea I've heard since Strawberry Nesquick.

Score: 13 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Whoa, whoa, whoa, there Louis . . . I have to agree that completion of the 33/190 connection sounds as appealing as a rusty railroad spike jabbed in one's prostate, but to categorize Strawberry Nesquick as an idea equally distasteful is just plain sacrilege and I am profoundly offended!

Strawberry milk is ambrosia!

replied to LouisTully
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I know, it just popped into my head because my wife hates it. It actually sounds appealing to me, though I've never tried it.

Try this one on for size though. During a visit to West Point I found myself going through their dining hall, which is colossal btw. They have so many condiment options on each table it is ridiculous. So ridiculous that they even have Strawberry Nesquick on each table. Tough life there, eh cadets?

replied to armyof100clowns
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Wouldn't a 120k sf tenant be just what would be needed to kick start Trico as a medical complex?

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I got really excited reading this, until I saw the drawing.

Im disappointed in Uniland for even considering this.
With so many vacant buildings downtown, there has to be a better option.

We need to create more urban density, not sprawling parking lots.

Score: 4 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

let me get this straight, a major health care provider agrees to consolidate their offices throughout WNY...forgoes suburban options and decides to build a new building downtown but all you guys are complaining about is the design which has yet to be released? The rendering is not the design, it's some generic example on the Uniland website from 8 years ago. I don't get everyone's issue about parking, it says in the article that Uniland is buying a nearby property for parking...Even if there is a huge parking lot between the building and the 33, it's 700 new jobs coming into downtown. 700 people who will go out to lunch downtown, 700 people who may decide to relocate into the city because it's closer to work, 700 people who are coming to downtown. That's progress people.

Score: 4 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

......"Even if there is a huge parking lot between the building and the 33, it's 700 new jobs coming into downtown. 700 people who will go out to lunch".... not sure anyone is walking anywhere from this location, just like Blue Cross down by Adams Mark, it might as well be in the burbs.

Terrible plan. Encourage this tenant into an existing building. I always thought this could be a dog park, the shelter is close by and more and more downtown residents.

Score: -8 ( 18 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Exciting proposal by Uniland for a new office building. They have been very committed recently to downtown, and its shown with good projects.

However, this rendering (although not releated to Catholic Health's current project) would be very counterproductive to the recent progress of Genesee Street.

Good urbanism is paramount to develop the synergies needed to restore vibrancy and investment in any urban neighborhood. Building up to the street and emphasizing transparent storefronts along the street (especially corners) is a must. Its not hard to get it right but once its wrong, its not easy to reverse (i.e. everything else along the Elm/Oak corridor).

Score: 6 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Well..if we held everyone to projects they proposed 8-10 years ago where would we be?

With everything Uniland has done as of late, some not perfect (Avant)..some better than others. (Chapin Place..Delware Court Building/Aloft??) I'm sure they'll come up with something much better than a project from a decade ago.

Look how far downtown has come in the last 10 years? I would doubt the 2nd largest health care system in the area and one of the largest developers in WNY would pass up an opportunity to hook up with the medical campus (thats apparently bursting at the seems?) while extending it eastward into another area thats been waiting for stabilization/development for decades.

(What every capitalist wants..medical campus is getting pricey..extend it Westward..within walking distance..where you can buy low and sell high down the road)

What a gold mine to any medicine/healthcare related business, the ability to be in the same building as 1 of 2 major health care players in WNY? This is a very important gigantic parcel, please don't skimp on the architect. A project this size is a game changer for the near Eastside. Its not the Crosspoint business park..lets see something that looks great, increases functionality/desire of a struggling part of town and most importantly works best for Catholic health.

Score: 8 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I think everyone is focussed just on the site but its really the fault of the expressway.

I've said many times before that the Kensington Expressway should end at Jefferson/Best.PERIOD. Restore the Humboldt Parkway entrance to/exit from the city.

A Parkway would demand a completely different experience and architectural design. This should be part of everyone's argument. You can integrate the new building with the Life Sciences Campus across a parkway,,,but an expressway has an attitude far closer to HealthNow...ie we want to be downtown but not part of downtown so put us next to an access ramp.

Replace Elm/Oak with Jefferson and you can add the entire near Easside back to downtown for future growth. This is really what everyone wants...besides we have far to many access ramps to center city....its like having to many leaches sucking blood from the patient and wondering why the patient isn't getting better

Score: 0 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Move into Trico.

Score: 0 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Excellent idea – I would even retract my original statement but CHS Corporate cannot think outside of the box….

replied to hamp
Score: -3 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

amen. empty building, meet prospective ternant.

replied to hamp
Score: -1 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Reading some of the comments here, it sounds like "No good deed goes unpunished".

Score: 1 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

This whole area needs to be rezoned and redeveloped into an urban corridor. It's the first thing people see when coming downtown. What a terrible impression it would be if Catholic Health moved into a new 'suburban' style building with a sea of parking. If at all possible, build it high with several floors used as an employee parking garage and perhaps build a plaza with fountains trees and patio seating. Then break up the rest of the block with urban-friendly shovel ready development sites.

Score: 4 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I work with Catholic Health. They have been talking about consolidating their various offices into one central location for a while. I have had to run around all of Erie County to go to meetings at the various offices they have, and think it's great that they're going to consolidate in one place.
As for the parking situation, I think that was a nonnegotiable part of what they wanted. If they didn't get it in the city, they'd have taken advantage of one of the suburban offers. So basically you have the choice of the design there or a building in the suburbs. I don't think they're going to be interested in any compromise on this.

Score: 7 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Why is it only surface parking? They can have the same number of parking spaces in a parking garage and create a much more urban design.

replied to pampiniform
Score: -1 ( 3 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Well, perhaps that might be a possibility. I think it will wind up coming down to sheer economics and parking demand. If there is not compelling reason to build a ramp, I wouldn't expect that they will spend the money to do so.
To be honest, I don't think there's really all that much that's really all that urban about that site. It's really rather isolated, surrounded on most sides by a moat of what is essentially expressways. There's nothing within practical walking distance from there. Nothing else in that area is walkable and is not likely to be anytime soon.
I do not know what the thought process was behind the site selection, but I think I can see why they may have liked that spot. It's pretty centrally located. You can get from all the CHS hospitals to there quickly. Sisters and St Joe's are right down the 33. Mercy and Kenmore Mercy are near the 190 which you can take to Elm. That's not a small matter when the CHS employees from other sites are in and out of the place for meetings (which there is no shortage of in health care). That's why they want all the on site parking too.

replied to pampiniform
Score: 1 ( 1 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

From curiosity: can anyone think of a parking ramp that is underperforming? Vacant spaces, etc? When I went to Canisius the school only had the 3rd level; and since taking over the whole ramp I haven't heard anything about a ghost ramp. My point is, how poor of investments are ramps? It just seems that ramps in the city aren't losers as far as functional performance goes. Aesthetics, of course, is another thing.

replied to pampiniform
Score: 2 ( 2 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I think a parking ramp is like anything. If there is demand for the spaces, it can be a financially viable option. If not, then it it can be a waste of money. I don't think there's that bad of a shortage of parking over in that area that it would be a necessity to build a ramp. I don't have any idea about what the demand for parking is in that area, but I don't know that it's there as of yet. I know it may not be the most attractive option, but I think this is a case where the reality of the situation needs to be weighed against what ever idealized conceptions for the area might exist. I won't even argue aesthetics here.

replied to LouisTully
Score: 1 ( 1 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

as a neighbor of south buffalo mercy hospital i am sorry to say that they cannot be trusted to do anything that is not self-serving(terrible design, increased noise, terrible lighting)

Score: -2 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

So should they have you called you up and asked you what they they could do to make you happy? Maybe they could have dropped their plans to improve the hospital and better serve the community so as not to inconvenience you? Or is that what you can expect when you live next to a busy hospital?

replied to alventre
Score: 2 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Rules for developing a property according to BRO...

1 - Build to the sidewalk!

2 - First floor retail!

3 - No parking of any kind!

4 - Rinse and repeat!

Score: 8 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Actually, that is the mantra for most cities in America currently--it's called building with appropriate urban form.

replied to Sabres1970
Score: 3 ( 9 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

It's also very traditional. It's how cities have been built since Mesopotamia.

replied to Travelrrr
Score: -1 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I'm not a big fan of Catholic Health at all but 700 workers downtown IS great for the city. That being said, the location does bother me. With easy on/off access from the Kensington, there goes any sort of traffic through downtown, which I feel won't benefit downtown businesses that much.

Score: -3 ( 3 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

If five percent if those employees choose to move close to work, that's 35 lofts leased. 700 employees could help convince someone to put a cafe in the Genny Block corner space...

replied to Cam33r4
Score: 3 ( 3 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I kind of think thats the point. Just with a survey of the ppl I know personally that work for Catholic health..all live in the suburbs. 700 more people downtown is inherently a good thing. You will have people who venture out for lunch time at noon..walkers..concert goers etc.

Pardon me if I missed it, but is this a lease or is Catholic health purchasing the parcel outright? I'm still holding out for Uniland building some sort of large scale "anchor" project for the neighborhood. I look at the size of the parcel and its just sooo big for a surface lot. Its just one hell of a first tenant

Unfortunately..I'll keep my mouth shut on this one..they could go anywhere..Como Apple tree mall..new biz. park they're trying to build on Genessee..Crosspoint. Their building may be peanuts in the world of new urbanism..but I'll call it at have 700 more people downtown and hopefully some new first floor tenants at the Gateway after they open up shop!!!

replied to Cam33r4
Score: 2 ( 2 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

re: parking ramps:

Parking ramps cost a lot to build: $20k/car. They cost much more to maintain than surface lots. And people prefer parking in surface lots. Ramps are unpopular with many drivers: there are more obstructions in them (such as posts), the spaces and aisles tend to be tight, you drive around in circles ten times climbing to look for a spot and then your exit takes time as you have to wait for everybody to be processed (and if you're getting out of a Sabres game the wait is endless), and many people (esp women) feel vulnerable in them, especially in the urine stinking stairwells.

For some companies which require substantial parking (see: HealthNow) a dedicated parking ramp fits the bill. For other companies surface parking is preferable both because it is far less costly and it's preferred by drivers. I don't know what that tipping point is for parking, at what parking need the ramp become attractive, but if the site can work without a ramp, that's the way it will go.

And actually, here that's not a horrible thing here. I'd prefer the offices to be built up on Genesee Street as opposed to set back. I do think that despite the interchange we can help heal the integrity of Genesee by siting this project with an urban sensibility at the street, since blocks east and west of here feature buildings hard on the street (and yes, this is different than I argue regarding big box stores on Elmwood in that other thread, but downtown is different). A parking lot out back wouldn't bother me a bit here, not with highway all around it.

Score: 1 ( 1 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

That parking lot will have to be gated considering the location. Not the best 'gateway' into downtown Buffalo, no? The whole thing sucks and represents a lost opportunity on a grand scale. Couldn't these schleps find a location that matches their lack of ambition and creativity?

replied to biniszkiewicz
Score: -2 ( 2 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

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