Tough Call on Webster Block

With many similarities and some pluses for each I just wish both parties would step away from competing and work together to make it all happen in one larger project that merges the two. Who says you cant have it all? Put pride or whatever it is aside.

The subsidies are being requested for two reasons:

1. That's how the game is structured and played even for hypocrites like Paladino.
2. The city isn't offering the property for sale and letting it go to the highest bidder. Rather, 9 other restrictions and stipulations are bing placed and or delineated prior to a sale and as we know, big business hates restrictions and therefore argues that when being restricted by non-market forces other non-market forces in the form of subsidies need to be applied.

What this really boils down to is Bryon Brown needing to control every aspect of this development so that it meets his campaign needs. Guaranteed its on campaign lit.

Not that my opinion really matters but I can totally see those hockey rinks on that top floor of the lower section in each of the proposals all surrounded in glass with elevated panoramic views. That would be lovely and add another dimension and activity there.

Brown hates Paladino. Let's see if that comes into play.

Is there really demand for 100,000+ Sq. ft. of office space downtown? Especially with the future of HSBC downtown being up in the air? I'd like to see Pegulas proposal win.

I know its not possible but if Paladino would guarantee an outside of buffalo company to move into the space, then I would definitely go with his proposal...But if in fact it will be all of that Class A space going to a company within blocks just moving employees from one space to another, then its just not worth it....Pegula's idea will bring in outside hockey tourneys, enthousiasts etc...plus the hotel.....
I just cant see that square footage of Paladinos being leased by anyone other than someone very close and once again its progress by just taking from one building and move to another.....

Why should Ellicot be given an opportunity to develope prime real estate while they have other property that sits idle? This is a no-brainer. Pegula hands down. The ice rinks give the city something it does not have. The benefits have already been discussed. Their are plenty of other opportunites for residential downtown. While they are at it, why not combine the three Cobblestone lots into one parking ramp and develope other two lots?

I rarely agree with Whatever, but I do in this case--re-open the RFP for diversified proposals. These proposals, architecturally-speaking, are o.k. This site deserves excellence.

i believe paladino's objection to the Statler subsidy was that it wasn't offered prior to the selection of a developer and therefore not fair to others who might have made a better bid on the building if they knew that additional money was in play.

Build both. Paladino on Webster block but with double the apartments and the Sabers facility on a surface lot two blocks over.

Lets see....Paladino's 50 Court St. still hasnt broken ground so what makes this project any different in sitting idle?

I may be off here...but this is the most 'public' I recall seeing Paladino be in his relationship to Mosey. Selling overpriced magazine subscriptions/debt collecting, with some questions raised about both.

Before now, pretty big supporter of Paladino. Given his more public relationship to Mosey, I'd push this one to the Sabres.

At least the Sabres are trying to make it a regional and national destination. Paladino has never been one for grand visions, but for pessimism.

They could probably save some money by throwing out the WBE/MBE requirements. Anyone in the industry knows that in order to comply you utilize one of the handful of "pass through" companies. These companies are basically a singular WBE/MBE person who hires the subcontractor that's cheapest under their name and charges a fee to handle some paperwork, making it appear that a minority or women owned business was hired when actually it ends up being whoever was cheapest. These "pass through's" don't actually perform any work other than signing off on some paperwork and collecting a fee.

It's essentially a loophole which inflates the cost of a project and defeats the intentions/purpose of the WBE/MBE program. We all pay extra for it on public projects with the exception of when an actual legit WBE/MBE subcontractor is low bidder. We may as well get rid of the program and keep it open to whoever is the low qualified bidder and save some money.

I have to agree that the Sabres can build their vertical hockey complex anywhere...a few blocks away would be just fine.

And Im not in favor of building on the prime real estate closest to the Canal District. I think the skyway access ramp should be demolished and the area around HSBC Center and ECC Downtown Campus and Donovan/Casino should have higher priorities.

Saving the real estate closest to the water is really the end of the development. If you end the development to early then your putting the lowest value designs in the highest value property...those buildings will be there for decades and not changed out easily.

I have to say that the Sabres idea would, in my opinion, bring more people to the area. People would actually have something/a venue to do/attend. How many restaurants can we have? People want to do more than just go to dinner for dinner's sake. They like to have something to see/do, then eat dinner. Shopping + dinner is an event, hockey+ dinner is an event. Dinner by itself is not all that fun nor does it last for several hours in general. We need to keep people downtown for as long as possible and give them as many varieties of activities that we can. The rinks could be used in a myriad of ways, not just hockey.

Given a choice between these two, with no changes, I'd have to say Pegula.
However, I would suggest that he subtract 84 hotel rooms and add the 42 apartments Paladino included into that same space, making it that much better. Pegula won't procrastinate on this, but Paladino has several projects to finish before he's given any more to do.

I hope Mayor Brown will "Chick-Fil- A" Paladino. I like Carl's design, but not sure I want a monument to him on the waterfront.

How on earth is this a tough call? The two proposals are nowhere near equal. The Paladino proposal is for 63million, while The Sabres proposal is 123million, almost twice as much.

In addition, Ellicott has placed a caveat on the amount of office space it will build. The amount to be actually built will depend on market demand at the time of construction (think court street).

The article is a also tad unbalanced in that it mentions Ellicott's plans for 8000 sq ft of retail while ignoring the fact that the sabres' proposal calls for a total of 16000 sq ft of retail split between main and Scott Street. Twice as much.

In their presentation, the Sabres were perfectly clear that the ice rinks will NOT be used by the Sabres as a practice facility. They will be for Public use. In essence a 35million dollar gift to the city.

The Ellicott hotel will NOT be a full service hotel. The Sabres' hotel will be a substantially larger full service luxury hotel which can function as a host hotel for major national and international sporting events. The hotel component alone will cost close to 45million which is more than the entire cost of the Donovan re-hab.

what would be great to see in the rinks proposal are large windows from the rink facing the harbor and skyway. That would make an incredible space...assuming a building on the opposite side of main is not taller than the top of the garage on the webster block.. but even so.

I think the Sabres proposal is clearly the best one to draw people downtown and have long-term viability and not empty office space. Carl Paladino should finish his other projects before he starts another one, and he should not use subsidies for a prime location if he isn't hypocritical (although partially I realize). Both look projects look great, I just think Pegula's proposal is the better one.

As in the other article posted on this site a week ago, my vote goes to Pegula. I think we can capitalize on the hockey thing as there are tons of options to build off the hockey concept. I am not well knowledged in the field, but I do have friends whose kids play hockey. The amount of travel and money spent is amazing....Can this bring other teams (junior) to the area for tournaments? Can a training camp be offered?? Can the rinks be used for other stuff when it's not hockey season. (maybe turf can be put in and it can be a soccer field also)... again, parents spend tons of money and time with their kids when it comes to youth sports. While the kids are practicing or attending hockey camp, the moms and sisters are shopping. This concept can attract more restaurants and retail shops for those family members not into hockey. Is there a sports museum anywhere near here????
Add that as an attraction....
Thumbs down on Paladino because we have office space that is vacant, there are other properties that are available for residential...
As others have said also, finish your other projects first..ie: the creamery building. (boutique hotel, office space, retail and residential fits there fine.)

do both!....lots of available land near this parcel

No where in the city's criteria does it mention:
Low Impact Developing or Regenerative (RED)
Storm Water Runoff Management
Sustainable Sites
Green Infrastructure
Green Parking Design or Bio Retention.....

Etc, etc.....

I still think they could do both. Pegula getting the prime real estate of course. Lotta parking the next couple of blocks Paladino could build there. The more going on around the arena the better.

An idea for the parking. When I went up to Toronto a few weeks ago I saw a novel idea they came up with. The first few rows for parking near entrance to the parking structure for hybrids and a section for electric cars with charging stations. Not really sure how they enforce non hybrids parking there but a decent idea.

Hands down the Sabres should be chosen as a the developer. Granted Residences near the water makes sense, but who wants to live with a view of the skyway (I personally like the road, I know boo). Visiting the waterfornt and the arena should be activity based and allow for massing of people that eventually will want to span out looking for other opportunities, not building a building where it's role is to draw and keep people there.

Think of the Sales Tax revenue, property tax increase that is currently not there and the mass of people using the services in that section when there's a hockey tournament. How cool would it be for a draw to say hey the final rounds are paled on an NHL suface across the street.

When we had the IIHF tournament here and subsequent ones in Amherst filling rooms, restaurants and malls a light bulb should have gone off and the city jumping on board. This is one of those pieces we can use to help develop that section of downtown and keeps critical mass there. Residential customers (especially in downtown) will not be enough mass to keep things moving forward.

If they want residential look to Church st. North where buildings can either be renovated or built and there's ample commercial opportunities for commercial ventures to support the residential needs. Don't ruin a destination location with a building the public will never be able to use.

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