Spending $200+ million to fix up an old stadium in the Southtowns is a losing strategy

Perfect...let's relocate the stadium from the southern suburbs to the northern suburbs. I don't see the advantage at all.

One would think over the next 36 months, the future of NFL football in Buffalo will be decided. If there is someone locally waiting in the wings to purchase the team, you'd hope they'd speak up on the issue of the stadium.

The 200 million in OP doesn't seem to be the best course of action, but given that the community is basically being held hostage by a 90+ year old man, too selfish to put the future course of the team on solid footing, a more permanent solution doesn't seem probable.

I agree with the author. I just wish there was even a remote possibility of it happening. But this is NY State and Erie County so sadly, there isn't a prayer.

I would also be ok with a downtown site, probably in no mans land near where the Senecas plan their crappy casino.

My hope is that there is something going on way behind the scenes to keep the Bills in Buffalo. Before I die, we just have to win the Super Bowl. When that day happens, the next day the area population will probably drop by 30%!!!

Buffalo has plenty of large venues for concerts already between Darian Lake, First Niagara Center, and Artpark. Musicians are not passing Buffalo by because of the lack of large venues.

However I agree I would be nice to see the stadium in use more than a hand-full times a year.

Bills fan, season ticket holder here. Not a fan of building a new stadium. We don't have the revenue stream that would support $1B stadium. Besides, the existing stadium works well, particularly if further improvements are made.

The Ralph is already a good stadium. It features great sight lines, the location is convenient, fans are not too far from the action, tailgating on private lots rocks. I like that the stadium is outdoors as opposed to domed (competitive advantage as time goes by; ever fewer teams play in winter weather).

We don't have the corporate base to spend through the nose to buy up all the requisite private suites that make new stadiums economically viable. Without that revenue stream, what is the big appeal of a different stadium?

Let's say we spent $1B on a new stadium that lasts 30 years. Let's further pretend that the whole thing can be built without paying any interest whatsoever. Interest free public money. Amortize the $1billion over 30 years and the cost of a new stadium, divided by 10 games a year (including two preseason, one in Toronto and one playoff game a year--hope springs eternal) and the cost for each and every game is more than $3million. Add in the realistic interest and the cost doubles or more.

I'd rather spend 1/5th as much.

Why bother putting the Stadium anywhere but the City of Buffalo proper? They are the Buffalo Bills.

My vote is for a retractable dome stadium located:
1). The old Republic Steel site
2). On the riverbend at the end of Katherine Street.

I wouldnt support a domed stadium. Its Buffalo and winter is something that makes the game more real here. Also, I wouldnt want one of those stadiums located somewhere that tailgating becomes a thing of the past.

Its Important to think about the stadium as a campus. Yea, the stadium itself is in poor shape (it probably worse than you realize, believe me, I work there). Theres no easy answer, it cant be left vacant without significant maintenance every year , and a renovation to something else is not practical (except maybe a D-1 stadium)

However, the training center/fieldhouse are first class buildings, and are superior to many NFL teams facilities. tens of millions have been spent in recent years to keep it that way.

The bills will be staying in Orchard Park.

Would be nice to turn the clock back to 1972 and have the stadium where it belongs...in Buffalo.

Look at it this way:

Buffalo & Erie County put the Bed & Restaurant Tax which is supposed to be used to market out region for tourism into the general fund. The full monies would put Buffalo on par with its peer cities like Rochester and per capita on par with Pittsburgh and Cleveland. BUT OUR POLITICIANS PUT IT INTO THE GENERAL FUND WHERE OUR CITY SPENDS PRACTICALLY NOTHING.

1901 Pan Am in 2001 was a dud
War of 1812 in 2012 was a dud
the list of businesses lost is numerous

The Buffalo Bills are a national and world class brand other than snow that also brands and markets our city, helps to attract jobs and tourists. The spin off effects the city and county would have to spend to compensate for the loss of the Buffalo Bills is so in-numerable that they would never raise the Tourism Budget to compensate.

FOR THE ABOVE REASON...SPEND WHATEVER NEEDS TO BE SPENT...DO WHAT MUST BE DONE...but put a new stadium worthy of keeping the Buffalo Bills here in the First Ward. Id love to see skyline views of the stadium and downtown Buffalo with every Bills game. You cant do that in OP.

I love Ralph Wilson Stadium.
Keep it and move on with renovations.
It's the Fenway Park of the NFL...

Why don't we just build a new hotel and tear down the Statler. Why doesn't this count as preservation? I don't understand why everyone on BRO screams about preserving our built environment, but they don't look at RWS the same way. I can't speak for every season ticket holder/ person who regularly attends games, but in general those that I speak to, including myself, love the Ralph and do not want to see the Bills move to another stadium. It is an amazing venue to watch a football game and the location allows for Buffalo to continue our tailgating tradition (until they take that away, but that's another issue).

Spending $1 Billion, whether it's the Bills, the taxpayers, or a combination of the two, shouldn't just be looked at as a "why not?" proposition. If you are going to spend that money, you had better have a good reason and you had better have a clear understanding of how you are going to get a return on that investment. I honestly don't see that here.

I just don't know what the benefit of a new stadium would be to Buffalo or the ownership. How much additional money is there to be made, Buffalo doesn't have the corporate population to buy additional boxes or luxury seats and makes money off of the gate. We don't have enough hotel rooms and the super bowl is not coming to Buffalo even with a new stadium, hell the NHL all-star game hasn't even come since FNA was opened in 1996.

A new owner will be a billionare. The Bills have become Ralph's primary investment, this will not be the case with the new owner. A new owner will have the Bills as a passion investment sort of like Pegula. It will be for fun and investment rather than for income.

Look at the two places where the stadium is and where it could be.

Orchard Park - residential community with a good mix of commerical and office space. It would be very easy to plow the stadium and its parking lots over and build sub divisions and new shopping and office buildings. Development of this land would being as soon as demo concluded.

Outter Harbor - nothing there except grass and pockets of industrail waste. It will take years to redevelop and stretch the inner harbor to the outter harbor building out residential and retail. A stadium would be a bookend to all of the investment that would occur building on what progress has already been made.

A huge stadium and associated parking lots on the sinking, swampy, flood-prone soil of Amherst. What could possibly go wrong?

First, Amherst residents will fight tooth and nail against the stadium. I doubt it will be built there.

SEcond, spending $200 million to upgrade the old is a hell of a better deal than spending $1billion on a new one. I think we can spend the remaining $800 million in many other ways that will actually benefit the region than building another stadium.

Third, what would you do with the old one? Tear it down? How much will that cost? And would you remove all that infrastructure on the thruway that was built -- at public expense -- to accomodate the masses of cars? Or just leave it as a reminder of the folly of building stadiums in suburbs?

It was a mistake to build the stadium out there, but it's a mistake we must live with. I say wait at least another generation before we consider abandoning it. There is no hurry, is there?

If we keep the old stadium, Buffalo will be in a great position to lure filmmakers who want to do a movie about football set in the 70s. It's bound to happen!

The residents around Audubon don't want it developed. Could you imagine trying to get a stadium on that land? Good luck!

Yes we need a new stadium, but why does it have to be taxpayer subsidized? Don't these multi-billion dollar owners have the case to back a stadium relocation without putting the bill on the backs of New York State taxpayers who already have more than enough problems? This state is in debt to their ears, adding more to it (especially with the deferred repayment startegy Schumer offered up) isn't the right answer. I love the Bills, would love nothing more than to see them stay here until my kids have grandkids, but to do so by standing on the already bent and bruised backs of taxpayers across the state isn't the right answer.
That being said, if they do find a new home for the stadium in Buffalo, I'd prefer the harborside area, which is slowly finding its footing currently and would be an ideal location both geographically and financially. It would really push that burgeoning area over the top and would bring all the businesses that are hedging their bets about moving in.
I don't ever want to see the Bills leave, even if they have to stay in the southtowns with a facelifted stadium.

1) The Ralph has the best sight lines in the league
2) Can you imagine the traffic jams in Amherst on gameday?
3) The Ralph was built at the perfect amount of feet above sea level to best deal with the winds that whip off the lake. Can't duplicate that in amherst
4) Cinci is in a HUGE hole financially for their new stadium that will virtually never make sense to the taxpayers

If the stadium were built near UB, imagine the traffic nightmare. When UB is in session and shopping mania kicks up in the fall and winter, the area near UB is like a Bermuda Triangle of traffic. And since we don't have decent public transportation into the suburbs - this is a bad idea. I get the synergy of having the stadium near UB but it doesn't make sense. If I lived near UB and heard this idea, I'd panic and move away. Yikes

Stadium spending is a boondoggle. I will never understand why the owners of profitable sports franchises are able to get cities and states to fund their stadiums. The only major league team that has a funding and ownership structure that makes any sense is the Green Bay Packers. All other major league teams hold their host cities at ransom; socializing the costs while privatizing the profit and endlessly threatening to relocate.

Hey I know, let's hand-wave the details and it'll all work great! Because I'm sure NYS will just hand over all the Seneca money, blah blah blah.

This is a pipe dream on the order of the usual trade proposals.... nonsense.

It doesn't matter where they play as long as they put a sub par product on the field. In that vein, I would encourage them staying put and investing in talent, and not hamstringing themselves in debt for the sake of luxury boxes. Mario Williams was a pretty great signing this offseason primailry because this team as constituted has no debt service. If a new ownership can slide into a similar situation, than it is a no brainer.

All that being said the current stadium needs to cater more towards football history and traditional experiences for fans. It still has a 1980's college stadium vibe about it...not NFL. Take a short trip to Pittsburgh or Cleveland to see what a small market stadium experence can be like, Its pretty cool!

Let me get this out of the way first. I'm not pleased with the idea of making 200 million dollars worth of investment in an old stadium. That being said one of the main selling points for the Bills is that their one of the only teams in the NFL that has a stadium which is fully paid off. That's an extra 5-10 million dollars a year the new owner is going to pocket, which makes the team very financially viable. Second point, Amherst is a terribly stupid idea for a number of reasons and that's all im going to say about that. Third point, NYS spends billions a year on entitlements that I have no say over either. So if NYS/County wants to spend a fourth of that over 10 years supporting the Bills I find that easier to swallow. Fourth point, the next stadium should def be built in the city. Let the owner buy the old NanoDynamics site and build a stadium there, with trains running down main st over a bridge connecting the inner and outer harbor and directly to the stadium. This would put 75k gameday fans right in Canalside or on Main st 8 times a year (bam watch restuarants and retail follow). Or find a place along the river and put one there. Im sure there's tons of space somewhere. Also, you could try to incorporate the grain silos into the mix, maybe even make one a hotel. That would def make Buffalo stand out as a destination.......just sayin.

Also, just because Jerry Jones built a 1B stadium doesnt mean the Bills are. Also, I've heard rumblings that whomever the new ownership team is, they'll front the stadium costs.

Can people PLEASE stop saying UB can share a stadium with the Bills?

Your absolutely right its a losing strategy. However a new stadium is a pipe dream - it took 15 years to tear down the aud. Besides the heirs, Mary Wilson and her step daughters, are selling to the highest bidder - he won't be from Buffalo.

If you get the state to give us Seneca $'s spend it on a new Peace Bridge !

I'm gonna resist the temptation to completely bash this post because it seems like the author had good intentions. I could write a novel bashing this though.

However, putting the stadium anywhere other than downtown or in the Old First Ward or South Buffalo makes absolutely no sense. We would be repeating the same mistake we did when The Ralph was built.

bethlahem site right on the lake !!

Best location for a new stadium,if it was financially feasible, would be between Larkinville and downtown, along the 190, in an area where there is mostly vacant land. It could have a nearly dedicated exit for game days and a rail extension.

Lets all hold our horses. Once Ralph decides to die the Bills are leaving anyways. Lets save our 200million and just wait for that day. Then we can use a fraction of the 200million for a going away party to hopefully help the deluded fans get over the fact that the bills are gone.

the NFL is about money these days and last time I checked there is none left in Buffalo.

I am in total agreement with:

Dave, “My favored places to build this thing: Lower East Side (Maybe somehow get some use out of the Grand Central Terminal)“ and

Up and Coming, “Fourth point, the next stadium should definately be built in the city. Buy the old NanoDynamics site and build a stadium there, with trains running down Main Street over a bridge connecting the inner and outer harbor and directly to the stadium. This would put 75k game day fans right in Canalside or on Main Street 8 times a year (bam watch restaurants and retail follow). Also, you could try to incorporate the grain silos into the mix, maybe even make one a hotel. That would def make Buffalo stand out as a destination.......just saying’.”

We keep hearing about light rail development and how to use the Central Terminal, with the expansion/development at Larkin Square things are picking up in that area and incorporating a new stadium with the Central Terminal would be a huge boost to rebuilding the area.

The Nano site is also sweet if it can be tied to Canalside. If we insist on maintaining Buffalo's industral heritage we also must find a way to incorporate the grain silos – consider the following 1) renovation of one for HD display as was done in Quebec with the Image Mill (viewable from Canalside, Skyway, Downtown, etc): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mzfgFXo7WvQ , and 2) consider the ideas of Soloman Atta to utilize the silos as usable space http://www.buffalorising.com/2012/04/solomon-atta-the-other-life-of-silos.html#SlideFrame_1

I just gotta say the idea of a D1 hockey is very exciting. UB students also need more things around North Campus, talk about suburbs. I don't know if anybody pointed this out but Amherst is closer to Niagra Falls than Orchard Park.

Fuhrmann Blv. at the beginning of the skyway. Right on the lake.

Does anyone know what the public contribution was for the new stadiums within the last half decade in NYC/NJ were?

1) Yankee Stadium
2) Citi Field
3) Meadowlands
4) Nets

It should also be considered that borrowing $ today is as cheap as it probably ever will be- not that I like borrowing esp. government borrowing or sports subsidizing, but lets face it, now is the time if you are going to lock them down for another 30 years. I am not a Bills fan myself,but I would hate to see them leave the area. (I get a guaranteed 2 Patriot games a year on tv- come on negative rating) and I think that we have an opportunity to fix a wrong from 40 years ago. Hopefully we can design a multi use stadium that will allow for MLS expansion (will offer more than 8 games a year) outdoor concerts, possible Super Bowl one day.

That being said save your $200 million and tell Wilson to stabilize the ownership picture. Time to play hardball.

aaah, my favorite pipe dream...build it at the corner of louisiana and south park streets, where what remains of the perry projects stands...plenty of public transportation options including extending a rail extension, too many good things to mention...and build decent homes in another area for the current residents

They need to put a few more events in the Ralph. Beyond Bills games and high school sectionals there seems to be very few events. My dad told me they used to have some awesome concert series way back.

I'm just echoing others: I definitely agree about a new stadium, but putting it in Amherst/UB is a terrible idea. It needs to be in the city. I would love to see a stadium as a part of the skyline!

In my opinion the Bills don't want a new stadium. A new stadium would mean they have to put in a lot of money. And a new stadium, especially downtown will tie their hands too much.

I think they like patching up the "old" stadium so that they can eventually move the team, and they won't be constrained by having built a new stadium, with a new lease. They will use the excuse of having outlived the "old" stadium as part of their excuse for leaving.

Give it the 'Downtown treatment': fire up the bulldozers.

go bills and take the sabres with you !!!!!

Attach a new stadium to Central Terminal. Kill several birds with one stone. The CT would act as an amazing historical entry point to a modern facility. Given we like 2 things here - sports and food, everyone would then get on board extending rail systems to get there. (pun intended) It would help revitalize a large are of the city and bring revenue downtown. We have all these great new hotels that would benefit from their proximity and this would in turn help support businesses that would be needed downtown to support the guests in the hotels and so on. So okay its a bit of a pipe dream...or is it?

Your funding ideas seem to be a lot of wishful thinking and a lot of things falling into the right place at exactly the right time: i.e. things that DON'T happen when NFL stadia are built.

What exactly is wrong with a renovated RWS? It's not new? Is this all Jerryland penis envy? There's nothing wrong with renovating a venerable old stadium - ask the Packers. The way I see it we have a large stadium with great sight lines that is perfectly capable of hosting NFL football for another 40 years with the right type of investment and upkeep (hopefully minimal on the public side).

The Bills are very profitable and very healthy financially...do you know why that is to a large to degree? Lack of debt. A close to a billion dollar stadium puts that financial health in serious danger and, IMO, would put the long term viability of the team in Buffalo in serious jeopardy ironically.

Myriad of academic studies have concluded that new sports arenas aren't economic boons or very much worth it for the cities they reside in. 30/40/50 events??? Where do you get those numbers from? UB football only plays 6 home games this year so combined with the 7 the Bills have (the Toronto series is NOT ending for a LONG time) where do these other events come from? Big stadium concerts all opt for Toronto now so that's out.

Calls for a new Bills stadium smack of civic insecurity because New York and Dallas are building monstrosities and charging king's ransoms for personal seat licenses and other affronts to the sporting public that will quickly make NFL football go the way of boxing, horse racing and the dodo.

There's nothing wrong with improving on what you already have. American throw away culture doesn't help here.

that old man is selfish, he shouls have a succession plan in place like all football families have..ie: Hunts and Rooneys and Maras etc etc. Pure selfishness on Ralph's part. He is senile and has been since 1994, last time we were relevant.

Spending any money on the Bills is a losing proposition. Let them leave.

The last thing we need in downtown Buffalo is another costly, architectural monstrosity that is only used part of the year. The rest of the year, it is dead space and the streets around a downtown football stadium would be dreary and empty. There is no real economic benefit to building a new Bills stadium either downtown or on the waterfront. We are a struggling, small market area that cannot afford to subsidize any additional silver bullet developments like a football stadium. The Buffalo Bills rightfully belong in Orchard Park and they should stay there and completely renovate the Ralph. Who knows when Los Angeles will try to make a major pitch to attract the Bills to their region. If and when that happens, it will be very difficult for Buffalo to hang onto the Bills.

LOL at all the poverty leftists in this thread who hate sports: all bread and no circus.

As the author let me respond to some of these comments:

1. This is not about what you or I want. It is about what the current 93 year old owner is willing to do to secure the future of the Bills in WNY.

2. Buffalo - Mark Poloncarz is the lead negotiator on a new lease and he stated they have studied every possible site in the City of Buffalo and determined there are NO suitable locations for an NFL stadium. Hard to believe in a city that has lost 300K people and demolished thousands of vacant homes, but he stated Buffalo is not an option for a new stadium.

3. Go big or go home. The current proposal is lipstick on a pig that secures nothing when a new owner buys the team. Lets put $400 million on the table and asking Mr. Wilson to put in $200 million and borrow $200 million from the G4 fund to build a new stadium and tie the Bills to Buffalo for 30 years. That will let us know one way or another what his intentions are...before we potentially waste $200+ million.

Spend $400 million to secure the team for 30 years or $200 million that secures nothing.

4. $400 million over 30 years is $13 per year, per Erie County resident. I believe if put to a vote, this would easily pass, as a good investment in a valuable community asset that adds to our quality of life in WNY.

5. The Senecas may never give a dime of that $400 million to NY State. Why not tie the casino money to a new football stadium for both the Bills and UB football, along with the exclusivity the Senecas seek in WNY. Maybe that gets a deal done and funds a stadium in way Albany can vote for.

6. We have plenty of $$$ in Buffalo, Rochester and Southern Ontario. The Sabres sell out every game and have a waiting 2500 person wait list. That is 18,600 tickets to 42 games or 781,200 tickets sold. 8 NFL games in a 65,000 seat stadium is 520,000 tickets. My company has 8 season tix to the Sabres, but gave up our 4 seats to the Bills 5 years ago. The older, wealthier clientele has grown tired of the outdated Ralph, the traffic jams and the drunken, partying atmosphere.

7. UB handles 30,000 students and staff every day and Amherst can certainly handle 65,000, 8 times a year.

8. Giving the UB Football program access to this kind of facility greatly improves their status and ability to recruit and build that program. It also free's up the current stadium location for development of UB2020 and what could be the home of a new UB Men's D1 hockey facility. None of that happens by fixing up the Ralph.

We need to make Mr. Wilson an offer that ties the Bills to WNY for decades and can't be broken. If he passes, then we save $200 million and see where the chips fall in the coming years.

The idea is to think BIG and be BOLD. I am sure the "bread and butter Bills fan" will no longer go to games if they have a beautiful domed stadium like Ford Field in Detroit! The old stadium can't last 3-4 years...is it going to suddenly crumble or explode, killing thousands of fans. Laughable. The next owner should decide where the Bills play. How does that secure the team in WNY?

Paying $200 million to upgrade a stadium is a waste of taxpayer money with a 93 year old owner and a lease extension that does nothing to tie the Bills to WNY.
It is a stop-gap to make the Bills extra money for the next 2-3-4 years that does nothing to secure the team. Of course the Bills want that as it benefits them. BUT WHAT BENEFITS WNY AND TAXPAYERS BEING ASKED FOR $200 MILLION?

We have one chance to secure the Bills in WNY long-term. Our goal should be to make them a REAL offer of a new stadium with a 30 year lease that ties the team to WNY.

The Bills organization is one man who is very cognizant of his legacy in WNY and the NFL. We give him our best offer and he either says YES, NO or lets work on it! But at least we won't waste $200 million and then watch the team move to LA in 3 years.