Real Estate August 29, 2012 11:00 AM

Sabres Win Rights to Webster Block

Sabres Win Rights to Webster Block

The City has selected Sabres' owner Terry Pegula's proposal for the Webster Block at the foot of Main Street.  According to The Buffalo News, Pegula beat out a proposal from Ellicott Development and Castle Mosey for the 1.7 acre site, located directly across from First Niagara Center and Canalside. 

Pegula's $123 million Harbor Center proposal calls for a 200-room, full-service hotel to be built by Benderson Development, retail and restaurant space, a 965-car parking ramp, and a two-rink hockey facility that will be available for public use, skate clubs, hockey tournaments and other events. 

Ellicott Development and Castle Mosey proposed a $64 million project consisting of a 140-room hotel, 42 apartments, 110,250 sq.ft. of office space, 8,600 sq.ft. of retail space and parking for 1,089 cars. 

Construction on Harbor Center is expected to begin by March and the complex would open in stages with the garage, retail and ice facility opening by September 2014 and the hotel in June 2015.

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Great news. This is the more unique use of the site with the potential to draw folks. Paladino's proposal was completely unimaginative. I think this could really set downtown buffalo up as a great draw for major amateur and international hockey tournaments. Great for branding. Paladino's had a bit of a better presence at the street - I hope that Pegula's architects will be open to some urban design input.

Does anyone know if it is planned for Canisius to use this facility as their home rink?

Score: 12 ( 16 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I like either plan as long as the outside of these buildings and bottom few floors are asthetically pleasing and inviting especially the two longer sides facing HSBC atrium and the inner harbor....Makes these levels places for people to sit, people watch, eat, drink and have outdoor amentities....Its crucial........and make sure the parking ramp is underground or completely guarded by these areas.....Please...and start now.....I feel like the Donovan building is just sitting there lately....

replied to townline
Score: 6 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment


I am not sure how much 'imagination' went into hockey rinks to be able to suggest that the other proposal lacks imagination.

I am sure the history that Carl has, in addition to, the realities of the Buffalo market in relation to office space need played more of a factor that originality of the selected design.

This will be a nice addition to CanalSide and the best part of it for me is the 1,000 space parking lot that will be open to the public. Here is to hoping that removes some need for surface lots. That said, there are multiple locations around the arena that would have worked for a hockey complex.

As an aside...50 Court Street is still up in the air even after being scaled back from 335,000 sq.ft. to 241,372 sq.ft. Simple math puts that difference about the same as the 110,250 sq.ft. that Ellicott wanted on the Webster block.

Seeing as the winning plan does not include any office space, one would hope that 50 Court would be scaled back up to the original scale.

Also - people please save your ignorant comments about stalled Ellicott projects on existing structures like the Creamery. New build construction is not the same as redevelopment.

replied to townline
Score: -9 ( 15 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Once construction has begun, would someone please - FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY - do something about the leaky pipes that make the front of the arena smell like sulfur most days?

Score: 14 ( 20 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Its not leaky pipes. Its raw shit being intentionally dumped into the river via a combined sewer outfall. Yes, this is 2012, and for some reason our federal government makes construction of useless superhighways to East Otto and on Buffalo's waterfront a priority, but apparently essentially letting an entire city unzip and squat into our source for drinking water is not an issue.

This is a problem in many older cities that needs to be addressed by the Federal government, yesterday. It directly affects public health, quality of life, and in a case like canalside, major economic development. Unfortunately, its just a sexy enough of a project for someone like Brian Higgins. But maybe there is an opportunity here for him to coin a new ridiculous term such as "Olmsted-like Sewer Main."

Sorry for the rant, back on topic. But yes, Zabka is bringing up an important and relevant issue that our leaders are refusing to address.

Score: 26 ( 36 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Yes yes yes... About a week ago I was driving on the 190 down to the 90 from the Scajaquada, and next to Squaw Island you could S M E L L T H E. V I L E. C R A P !!!!111 all the way down to the Larkin Area! It smelled like a person took a s#it in the air conditioning system! I couldn't breathe, we had to turn the AC off and keep the windows closed in 90*.

replied to townline
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Townline, while the sewer issue is a problem the bigger issue with sulfer smells is actually from the historic issues stemming from the site, mainly with Tannery's that sat on and near the canals.

http://www.buffalonews.com/city/article41420.ece

This is an older article outlining the problem, which we all know hasnt been corrected yet. When the canals were filled, they just dumped dirt over the top. I agree this isn't a "sexy" issue, but not sure you can point fingers at the politicians on this one, unless you have a flux capacitor to allow you to point it at turn of the century leaders.

replied to townline
Score: 9 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

The sulfur smell is because the arena was built over a Hellmouth. Larry Quinn ignored the warnings.

Score: 1 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Wow. Congrats Terry
But Urkle should make Pegula add 100-150K SF of office space so Delaware North can relocate their HQ there.

Score: -11 ( 17 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

WEBSSSSTERRRR!!!! #Sabres

Score: 2 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I think this is a mistake personally.

I think that Scott, Perry, Illinois, Mississippi adjacent to HSBC would have been a better location.

Put the Webster Block on hold for something more valuable and build up the integration with the downtown and First Ward.

Also, as the area gets built up...the spaghetti strings of exit ramps from the skyway access ramps and Elm/Oak arent needed anymore. Use Erie, Virginia and Hamburg. Open this area up to the expansion of downtown. This is ridiculous and shamefull to have so many exit ramps within blocks of the downtown core. Its like asking someone to bath in leaches and then wonder why they are weak.

Score: -55 ( 69 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

they are both okay ideas......Probably a rush to pick but in the end I do think at some point Buffalo should bend over backwards for Pegula who has deep deep pockets and seems to want to stay here and grow here with this family, at least part time............just my opinion but I thought I would stick it in here

replied to paulsobo
Score: 7 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

How is this a rush to pick? This was opened up for RFP's and only two were submitted. I'm just glad that Terry was one of them.

replied to elmdog
Score: 7 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

So happy the Sabres won this one. Didn't think the city had it in them, but I am pleasantly surprised with this outcome.

Score: 14 ( 16 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

There have been talks between Canisius and Ted Black about Canisius finally having a "home" rink down there. Nothing was set in stone until this came through. I would expect an official announcement soon. The thought of a rink on or closer to campus just isn't feasible.

Score: 7 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

If Canisius were to make a home there and actually invest in their program like they should, taking advantage of a natural location on the Canadian border to attract top canadian NCAA talent - I would be a season ticket holder from day one. College hockey done right is phenomenal.

replied to batmankh
Score: 22 ( 22 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I would love to see the number of hotel rooms decreased and add some residential on the upper floors. Either way this is a win.

Score: 6 ( 16 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I would have liked to see about 10 extra floors but this is amazing.

replied to Mark_Hitchcock
Score: 11 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I liked Ellicott's design, but feel Pegula is more likely than Paladino to get this done.

Score: 12 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

This was such a no brainer. I can't believe that it took the Mayor an extra two weeks to figure this out. He had me worried there for a minute. The addition of two ice rinks makes this a draw for the area which is needed due to the touristy nature of Canalside. Plus when you compare the proposals this one has the bigger hotel and it's full service as opposed to limited service. This one also has a big signature restaurant, where the Paladino proposal was more limited in the food and other retail options. The apartments are the only thing that is missing in the Sabres proposal but that could easily be accommodated elsewhere, and in fact Canalside is surrounded by apartments and condo's already. Apartments are not neary as much of an economic catalyst as the ice rinks will be. This is huge for Buffalo. HUGE!

Score: 15 ( 19 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Why couldn't they also put the apartments on top of this thing. You know. Go up another 7 or 8 floors and have a 20 story building here?

Score: 10 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Height limit for this block in canalside guidelines

replied to buffaloroam
Score: 9 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Construction is not starting in February. I am quite certain of that unless they already started final design and have all of their financing lined up.

Score: -7 ( 19 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I don't think financing is much a problem in the World of Pegula.

replied to STEEL
Score: 10 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I'm concerned about financing. Just because pegula is stanky rich doesn't mean he will gift us a 100,000,000+ complex. The thing has to make some sort of sense financially. It doesn't hurt that he has deep pockets but I wouldn't count on that either. Then again, I don't see him proposing something that he doesn't plan on following through with.

replied to STEEL
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He isn't gifting us anything. He's going to own the building. And the city is selling him the block, correct? And my understanding of the public $ they are asking for is only for utility relocation which makes sense.

I'm not worried about the financing.

replied to Tim
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He "gave" 70 million to the Penn State hockey program, so I don't think money is a problem......just sayin'.

replied to Tim
Score: 4 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Is some of the parking below street level. Does anyone remember?

Score: 1 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Fantastic news!

For all the "this block could have been used for better purposes/this building could have been put on one of those vacant lots" people: those blocks worth of vacant lots are still there. Demand for this area is going to increase and development will spread.

Canisius better be onboard or big FAIL.

Score: 4 ( 12 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Really? What would you have put here?

replied to LouisTully
Score: -3 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

What? Maybe you want to adjust fire. I'd put the Pegula proposal there. Is that what you were looking for?

replied to Up and coming
Score: 2 ( 2 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Yup, you're right. You got caught in some friendly fire.

replied to LouisTully
Score: -2 ( 2 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I AM FIRMLY AGAINST THIS PROJECT. THAT IS WHERE I PARK WHEN I GO TO SABRES GAMES!!!!!1 WHERE AM I GOING TO PARK! THERE IS NO PARKING DOWNTOWN. KEEP THE SURFACE PARKING! THIS CAN BE BUILT IN AMHERST!


I thought this needed to out there before someone seriously wrote it.

Score: 25 ( 39 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Over the next few years development will spring up all around the Arena, so underground lots will make surface lots unnecessary for game goers.

replied to Mark_Hitchcock
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Pegula isn't local, lives in the Sun Belt in low tax Florida, just like a chain.
He got super rich from natural gas fracking which is evil, and donates to Republicans - double evil.
Windows in the drawing look like they might have some tint, not fully clear.
No community benefits agreement would mean The People's Block won't have much needed living wage rules and hiring quotas.
A building like this isn't in Tielman's award-winning master plan for our canal heritage fabric.
We need to all stop these outrages with lawsuits or at least make lawn signs!

I thought this needed to out there before someone seriously wrote it.

replied to Mark_Hitchcock
Score: 0 ( 20 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I like either plan as long as the outside of these buildings and bottom few floors are asthetically pleasing and inviting especially the two longer sides facing HSBC atrium and the inner harbor....Makes these levels places for people to sit, people watch, eat, drink and have outdoor amentities....Its crucial........and make sure the parking ramp is underground or completely guarded by these areas.....Please...and start now.....I feel like the Donovan building is just sitting there lately....

Score: 3 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Taking the Metro Rail down to a Sabres or Bandits game is definitely going to feel different once the Donovan and Webster block buildings are up and running. And add to that the children's museum and other buildings on the Aud block to the west of the Donovan building.

Feels like things are finally getting moving there!

Score: 18 ( 18 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I also have to say that with this new contract that I hope wont be contested and started soon....There is a lot of things going on construction wise in Buffalo right now and the next few years....Construction again will see a nice tick upwards and five or 6 new buildings will be built and or renovated into new things....AM&A's retro, CHOB, new Roswell tower, new healthcare Ciminelli buidling on Main, Pegula block, Vet school on Gates circle; timeline?...Tishman renovation, Curtis renovation, Donovan buidling, New Casino.....Am i missing anything...
Someone should put this in a National magazine or paper...
All we need now is a few outside companies to bring jobs and good paying jobs to offset all of this and bring a new tax base to Buffal.... if Billion dollars for Buffalo comes through with a few nice size wins, who knows where we can be in 6 years..........

Score: 13 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Can you say Community Benefits Agreement?

replied to elmdog
Score: -12 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

From the Buffalo News article:

"[C]ity residents will be sought for post-construction jobs. Local labor will be used for construction. Employees of the ice rink and parking ramp also will be paid a living wage, Brown said."

So perhaps it's not an issue. Sounds like the city negotiated some of these things in the purchase contract (tied to the PILOT agreement, perhaps).

I also noted that the Sabres will be buying the lot for $2 million, much more than the $500,000 they had originally offered.

replied to Up and coming
Score: 5 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

To me it is not very authentic, it better have bike racks. Buffalo needs new leadership.

I thought this needed to out there before someone seriously wrote it.

Score: -10 ( 34 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I also have to say that with this new contract that I hope wont be contested and started soon....There is a lot of things going on construction wise in Buffalo right now and the next few years....Construction again will see a nice tick upwards and five or 6 new buildings will be built and or renovated into new things....AM&A's retro, CHOB, new Roswell tower, new healthcare Ciminelli buidling on Main, Pegula block, Vet school on Gates circle; timeline?...Tishman renovation, Curtis renovation, Donovan buidling, New Casino.....Am i missing anything...
Someone should put this in a National magazine or paper...
All we need now is a few outside companies to bring jobs and good paying jobs to offset all of this and bring a new tax base to Buffal.... if Billion dollars for Buffalo comes through with a few nice size wins, who knows where we can be in 6 years..........

Score: 2 ( 2 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

This was a bad decision. The only way to revitalize downtown is to get people to live down there and this has no residential units.

I know it's The Sabres and everyone in this town has an almost irrational love for them, but I see this as just a little bit better than bringing in a big box store like Bass Pro. The only reason it's a little bit better is because The Sabres and Uncle Terry are behind it.

This is just another silver bullet project that everyone thinks will save downtown that won't do much of anything to help. People will drive in from the burbs, park in the parking ramp, then go back to their subdivision in Amherst.

Meanwhile, Buffalo makes no progress.

Score: -51 ( 65 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Carl's proposal had a measly 40 units - almost meaningless. yes downtown needs residential - but it needs to be growing residential by the 100s at a time.

The benefits of the ice facility in conjunction with FN Center will reap far greater benefits than the mere 40 units in Carl's balls-less glorified parking garage.

replied to FadetoBlack
Score: 13 ( 21 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Just because you can bitch about Buffalo doesn't mean you have a clue.

replied to FadetoBlack
Score: 24 ( 30 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Wow.

Look, the only way to make any progress is to get people to live down there. I've made the point and given my reasons a bunch of times on here so I don't wanna waste time recanting on why I believe it to be the case.

But look, if Uncle Terry adds some residential units to this I would support it.

To townline: Every little bit helps and there is no way that anyone would start off with hundreds at a time, although it would be nice.

replied to Jesse
Score: -11 ( 19 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Sure - every little bit helps. But it's 40 units are hardly enough to offset the potential benefit of an alternative use. If we were talking about a 500 unit building here, or even 250, I would agree with you, that's worthwhile. But this is an extremely valuable piece of property - 40 units is next to nothing for such a large and prime piece of land.

replied to FadetoBlack
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You act like this was the one chance for all of downtown to build living space.

replied to FadetoBlack
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Really bad and uninformed comment - 48 residential isn't changing the landscape of the city but a total of 300 hotel rooms between Donovan and this- hockey tourneys, jobs the hotels and restaurants provide etc will benefit ..... Getting the NCAA's again big concerts will attract people to stay, spend money etc....

replied to FadetoBlack
Score: 5 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

FadetoBlack,

Marine drive apartments are right next store to Canalside with 616 units. The Lofts at Elk Terminal - 72 units. These are both withing ear shot of canal side. I don't think that the 40 units that Carl proposed would have been any sort of game changer down there. Don't get me wrong. We could use 40 units or 400 units of housing down there. I think we you just look at the potential of these two proposals it's clear that the Sabres proposal is way better. Also, building hockey rinks is kind of an anti- silver bullet mentality. If you don't get that then you really don't know what a silver bullet project is. Cause this one is the alternative to silver bullet ie Bass Pro.

Score: 13 ( 17 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Marine Drive is full of fixed rent apartment for lower class individuals, so we can take the demographic right out of the picture. Also, the Elk Terminal lofts have between 50-60 apartments, not 72. Also, thats the only residential down there at all. Unless you want to count the Perry Projects. [Deleted- off topic]

replied to buffaloroam
Score: -3 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

My bad I forgot about the 5-10 apartment next to the arena above Lagerhaus 95.

replied to Up and coming
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You're absolutely positively wrong.

Like someone else daid, Marine Drive is filled with low income residents - they won't be able to spend enough money to change much. Elk Terminal really isn't downtown and it's a GATED community where everyone has a car. They do nothing for downtown.

Also, this is absolutely positively a silver bullet project. It's a massive expenditure that everyone loves because of its hockey connection and it's designed "to bring people downtown." Funny how the same language was used for the Metro Rail, the convention center, and Bass Pro.

If you're gonna try to make a point, at least check your information.

replied to buffaloroam
Score: -17 ( 25 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Actually Marine drive apts are full of retirees with houses in florida.

replied to FadetoBlack
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Bass Pro involved over $30 million of public subsidy, in addition to demolishing the Aud, preparing the site, etc. How much public subsidy are the Sabres asking for this project? And of that, how much is generally reasonable "preparing the site" expenses like relocating utilities, and how much is a direct handout?

I was under the impression that this was mostly a private project.

replied to FadetoBlack
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just a side note about the low income and/or retired residents of marine drive or anywhere else downtown.

a downtown resident spending 95% of their $20k income downtown, because they don't have a car to go elsewhere, is a much better deal for downtown than a resident spending only 20% of their $50k income downtown, because they drive to the malls.

replied to FadetoBlack
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That could be the most irrational comment I've ever read on here.

replied to grad94
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you do the math. people who spend nearly all of a small paycheck in the city are a better deal then people who spend a small fraction of a big paycheck. it is the difference between gross and net, as any business owner would know.

replied to Up and coming
Score: -1 ( 1 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

20k break down of expenses: (per year)
Rent: 6k a year
Groceries: 3.5k
Gas: 2k
Car Insurance: 1k
Utilities: 3.5k
Clothes .5k
Misc: 2k

Total 18.5

.....which leave 1,500 dollars total left over for entertainment and whatever else I cant think of. Me and a group of friends spent 800 dollars at Bambino, 1,500 at Rendezvouz, 200 at Snooty Fox and 100 on cabs. So thats 2600 in one night. So you tell me which demographic has a larger impact on the city. Also, in an average week i'd say that me and the friends I go out with spend around 1k easy in the City. So thats about 10-15k for me and a 1,500 average for a low income resident. You make the choice on which you'd rather have.

replied to grad94
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Also, if they don't have cars how come the parking lots are packed with cars and the whole outer ring of the building is packed with cars.

replied to grad94
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Ughhh Bass Pro didn't get built, this is going to. I'd say that's a pretty huge difference between the two projects.

replied to FadetoBlack
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FadetoBlack, as far as I can see, you're the only one saying anything about this being a "silver-bullet project" meant to "save downtown." Save it from what? You're just repeating the same old negative talking points, even if they aren't relevant to the current discussion Why does every new idea or development downtown have to be sarcastically referred to as "silver bullet" when it's usually just a project with some marginal benefit to the area.

You say you want downtown housing, which is valid, but if you live in Buffalo, do you really want to be right next door to the arena? There are many other blocks downtown where residential makes more sense. Assuming you have suitable alternatives, next to the sports arena is one of the last places you build residential units. You do that once all the more desirable areas have been developed. We're nowhere near that point.

replied to FadetoBlack
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I would love to see you walk from the Elk terminal to Canalside in January. Winds whipping off the lake, no structures on Perry street to deflect any of that wind. You're face is an icicle

replied to buffaloroam
Score: -6 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

A mistake...hotels and hockey rinks will not help revive this part of downtown as a real downtown where people live and work. Neither plan was bold, but the hockey rink plan has small-town written all over it. Good downtown housing and large business will make downtown hum again.

Score: -22 ( 34 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

So you're saying that a facility/development that no other hockey organization or city in North America has is a mistake? Good downtown housing isn't going to bring large business and corporations. Let's build up the downtown attraction and visitation first before we even think about oversaturating the downtown real estate market.

replied to EricOak
Score: 20 ( 24 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Erik I often agree with you but I think you're way off here. There was nothing about Carl's proposal that will stimulate anything. It was a parking garage in sheeps clothing. Take a look at the floor plan. The retail along Main Street (MAIN STREET!) was less than the depth of a single parking bay - so probably around 18 feet. Once you get your utilities, restrooms and build-out in there, not many businesses are going to survive in such a shallow space. It was window dressing to sell the concept and nothing else. 40 residential units will do next to nothing for the market and we are faced with an office saturation that is potentially about to get a lot worse.

I would agree that neither proposal, including Pegula's, is phenomenal, but at least Pegula has identified a niche that is needed, that fits with the site and with Buffalo. In reality they're both glorified parking garages - and that is really the fault of the City for the way the RFP was written and the total lack of standards that it held. Furthermore, ECHDC has totally failed to provide any sort of a vision for what good development here would be. Yeah, they don't own the land, but you'd think they wouldn't be that short sighted.

Pegula's was pretty clearly the better proposal.

replied to EricOak
Score: 16 ( 18 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Yes, what you say in your second paragraph is exactly right: the request parameters and the city and the ECHDC all showed no imagination or long term thinking about what the city really, authentically needs: permanent housing and large scale employers. I don't think that Paladino's proposal was better; it was just window dressing, as this rink and hotel are. But conceptually it nodded in the correct direction: living places.

I'm happy there is a deal here, but while the city may celebrate these small achievements, and we may cheer development for the sake of any development, we might be spending our energy and coin on urban make-up instead of building muscle.

replied to townline
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123 million is a small acheivement?

replied to EricOak
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I also would not call this downtown. Its not the CBD, its the waterfront. As evidenced by the predominant surrounding land uses - residential, entertainment, parkland, with a mix of some office. Canalside needs to complement downtown and connect to it, not be an outgrowth of downtown. CBD type development shouldn't be a centerpiece of the waterfront.

replied to EricOak
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EricOak, This is a hotel and retail complex and a major attraction for out of town visitors and it all replaces an empty lot, you gotta be kidding me if you think this is a bad deal. A shiny well lit people magnet that is mostly privatly financed vs a lot, better think this through again pal.

replied to EricOak
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Yeah. A Hockey "casino" that people will drive to and then drive out of never setting foot outside the building and a super Tim Horton's...I can barely contain my excitement. And most people in Buffalo will never utilize these rinks.

replied to EricOak
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This was a no lose issue as soon as both parties issued their plans (only that there should have been more).

Glad to see it is moving forward!

Score: 7 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

i bet carl will protest and sue just to interupt progress ! pegula must have paid more than carl !!

Score: -2 ( 12 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

City is reporting Carl took the news "graciously." Perhaps now he'll properly focus on his optioned lot on Court Street.

replied to warehousedweller
Score: 11 ( 17 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

What is stopping Paladino from building his apartment/hotel building at another canalside location? This is but one site among many.

Score: 14 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Three words my friend, location location location.

replied to 300miles
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Which is exactly the argument for putting the two ice rinks next to the center. Unless you can come up with good reason why 45 apartment dwellers need to be connected by a glass bridge to the first niagara center (as opposed to Harborsides 75 additional hotel rooms and 8000 additional sq ft of retail space).

replied to Up and coming
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Why are the other canalside locations less desirable than this one?

replied to Up and coming
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1000 covered parking spaces$$$$

replied to 300miles
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Also, the other lots are privately owned and would probably go for way more than the 550k sale price the city was selling the Webster for.

replied to 300miles
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This place is going to be awesome...and it's on a surface lot so it avoids the argument over tearing something down to build it. This is a win for Buffalo and the Sabres. The hockey tournaments and visitors that will come to town will be incredible. Some day we will look back on this and say this is one of the best thing to happen to down town Buffalo and hockey in WNY in our generation.

Score: 13 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

This is going to be a huge draw for organizations in Ontario and beyond. Good job.

Score: 7 ( 9 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

With all of the new development proposed or under construction on the waterfront, why is there still subsidized housing at the Marine Drive apartments? subsidized housing is okay, but when the property becomes significant;y more valuable it call into question why this is still occuring. This should be market rate.

Score: 13 ( 15 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Well - the area is still almost totally covered in vacant, undeveloped land. There is hardly need for that land at this point. But probably more importantly - we're all dying for substantial residential development down here - might be a little counterintuitive to kick out the 600 or so residents that you actually already have there. Subsidized =/= bad people.

replied to Buffplanner
Score: 5 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Eminent domain should be used - marine drive could be a great place for young professionals - and employees working in this area ...

replied to Buffplanner
Score: 1 ( 17 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Eminent domain is not used for public property - its already municipally owned. I suppose the city would have to give fair market value to itself to acquire it. And there are plenty of employees working in this area that live at marine drive.

replied to elmdog
Score: 3 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

They should see if the designer can come up with any new ideas. Just a bit more volume and a traditional tactile conceptual action and purposeful ness.

Score: -1 ( 1 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

As long as it isn't Paladino, I'm happy.

Score: 8 ( 12 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Where will I park now??? JK... Great news

Score: 1 ( 3 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I always wondered what that smell was by the arena what happens when they start digging there will it smeel even worse. Cant believe that Higgins hasnt solved that sewage problem oh well

Score: 2 ( 2 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Most groundwater under Buffalo smells like sulphur because of the limestone bedrock. Springs in Forest Lawn feed the Creek, wells drilled in Delaware Park feed Hoyt Lake, and the more they feed or pump, the worse it stinks. Although sewage certainly runs into Scajaquada Creek, the everyday smell comes from what we think SHOULD be "pure" spring water.

As for more "Professional Sports" related development Downtown: it is an oxymoron, and will not happen. How much development occurred around Rich Stadium, War Memorial Stadium, The Aud, Griffin's moronic baseball field, and what I like to call The Hockey Barn? None. Nothing: then, now, or ever. Sports arenas do NOT generate development. They generate or perpetuate parking lots and slums.

This is a new money grab by the already money-vacuuming hockey franchise.

replied to Jaxson
Score: -13 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

That's a funny argument since this project that is "prime real estate" is directly outside an arena. I know the Arena didn't really spur development but it's the same as the Rockpile not spurring growth on the East side, there are more factors involved.

This also isn't a Pro Arena, it's more like a mega community center.

It will attract many Canadians, which like to shop.

replied to ForestBird
Score: 5 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Get out more ForestBird.

replied to ForestBird
Score: 0 ( 0 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I like it, but don't block off Perry Street.

Score: 7 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Most people are aware that the Marine Drive apartments are not really low income. It's for lower middle income people below 45,000 ( i pulled that number out of my butt so don't quote me). I have a friend that is a nurse that lives there with their spouse and no children. She makes probably 35-40k per year.

Score: 5 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

They could use a makeover, kind of embarrassing taking pictures for tourists and those are in the background behind the Navy ships.

replied to buffaloroam
Score: 3 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I'm not usually one for advocating new skin on buildings..but unfortunately if the Marine Drive apartments are here to stay (I've love to see them removed..theres no reusing projects)..clean them up at least. Some new windows..an exterior cleaning maybe..remove the Soviet-era heating/cooling apparatus on the roof..some landscaping.

Since when is $30-$45k for two people low income...let alone in Buffalo?? There should be NO subsidized housing in Buffalo period..if that day comes lets start with Marine Drive.

replied to JM
Score: 4 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

They don't even need a re-skin. A simple roofline addition like what was added to the projects between Clinton and Division would make a huge difference. Perhaps a superficial structure to enclose the water towers on top. I had an aunt who lived there in the '80s and they're honestly not bad, but even back then all they needed was a little TLC.

You have to remember that when they were built in the '50s, Marine Drive was in the middle of an ungodly industrial area. I doubt even the lowest income tenants were pleased to live there at the time. As the area improved, so did their tenant base, until there were waiting lists to get into the complex.

I believe, however, that even though a tenant association was formed and the apartments began to cater to middle class residents, there was still a stipulation in effect that the rent was to be kept at the lower end of 'reasonable' so that it was still affordable. I'm not sure of the details, but I believe that as long as they are standing, they are subject to the rules under which NYS built them. Unfortunately, that means that at $300-$550, there probably isn't a huge cash reserve in place to make any major alterations.

I tend to agree that housing projects were a mixed bag of successes and failures. Atlanta recently bulldozed the last of its remaining housing projects, and now only provides vouchers to cover rent in a wide variety of neighborhoods. As well intentioned as the plan was, this too has seen as many failures as successes.

Marine Drive suffers due to the era in which it was built. If they were bulldozed tomorrow, we'd only begin a new fight about having them replaced with something like the craptastic developments along the north end of Erie Basin Marina.

If Canalside, ECHDC, BuffaloPlace or the city or state infused a little cash to upgrade the exterior, it could benefit everyone (without having to evict an entire building's residents to reskin the towers).

replied to Buffalo All Star
Score: 7 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

You're correct, their not technically subsidized, but they are "rent controlled". Ps to the above comment.

replied to DeanerPPX
Score: 2 ( 2 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

They need to be retrofitted, painted a different color or clad in glass. Or all of it, they are dull, brown, old and boring.

replied to JM
Score: -1 ( 3 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Is she a native of South Buffalo? I think the Marine Drive apartments have a clause that only allows people to rent if their lineage has ties to the south side

Score: 4 ( 4 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Yes! Looking forward to the completed project.

Score: 5 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

This is a great addition to the area. The other proposal was not the best use for this land. With hsbc up in the air we might not need that much more office space in the area. I think the rinks are going to be a better draw given that this is part of canal side. Offices would just bring people out for a bit around lunch time during the summer and sometimes after work. Harbour Center is going to be a year round draw, and actually possbily even more so during the winter when downtown struggles to bring in people. I do wish there was a resdential component to this project but Paladino does not have a good track record of completing large projects so at the end of the day, his proposal was at risk of never getting built. Once we get more consistant crowds around canal side all year round, then retail will move in. I agree with some of the people on here that the marine drive towers should be market rate apartmetns. I am not sure if the buildings can be rennovated easily or in what condition they are in to actually save them or if they need to be torn down and just do new builds there. The problem is that we can't just screw over the tenants who live there. They would need to be relocated to someplace else that is still transit accesible, even though it does seem that a lot of the people there have their own cars. Also, I don't think it would be a good idea to put too much city housing all together, then it just starts to turn into slums since it hurts property values. I don't think that the loss of these 600 or however many tenants live in the buildings will be a detriment to canal side, but rather a boon to the area. First of all, low income people are frankly not the demographic that canal side is trying to draw. Also, some people might be scared off by having city housing nearby, whether for living there, shopping there or setting up stores. Not that I think those fears are always fair, they are also not unfounded. No city has high end retail with city housing as their closest neighbors. I could just see potential for the marine drive buildings, or the land at least to become decently priced apartments for younger people to live downtown and be close to the water and arena, harbour center and maybe someday a new bills stadium.

Score: 2 ( 4 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Paladino's plan was not spectacularly better (if at all). And he's already committed to downtown a dozen different ways. Better to further nurture the city's ties to its oft visiting beneficent billionaire. Get Pegula as emotionally attached to Buffalo as possible. Never hurts to have more of those guys around.

Score: 8 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

webster block decision now will be the biggest mistake byron brown made, his whole life. i won't make the list here, and


please don't attempt to answer for judgment unless you know where it's from:


"you broke every law of God and man. a better man would stand and die, but you had one good reason why -- take your own but leave my own alone. do what you want but don't ride on my road."

Score: -29 ( 31 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Heard that they are going to model their bar after Real Sports bar in Toronto, if so this place will be amazing to watch the Sabres, or even the Bills.

Score: 3 ( 3 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Probably the right decision.

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