Real Estate August 30, 2012 11:30 AM

HARBORcenter- Additional Details Emerge

HARBORcenter- Additional Details Emerge

Terry Pegula's HARBORcenter Development, LLC's $123 million hockey-themed proposal for the Webster Block promises to be a game changer for the foot of Main Street.  The ambitious plan calls for two new ice rinks, (one with seating capacity for at least 1,800 people, and the other with seating capacity for at least 200 people) a hotel, parking ramp, and retail and restaurant space. 

"We are proud to be named the preferred developer of the Webster Block," said Terry Pegula, owner of the Buffalo Sabres. "This project will further enhance the current development at Canalside and in the process, create a destination attraction to draw hundreds of thousands of people to Buffalo's waterfront on a yearly basis. Canalside has seen a rebirth the past few years and we expect our project to act as a catalyst for future development on the waterfront."

"I want to thank HARBORcenter Development, LLC and the Buffalo Sabres for putting before us a remarkable proposal that will re-make this prime piece of city-owned land, and bring tremendous economic impact to the community," said Mayor Brown.

sabrespick10.jpgThe HARBORcenter Development project is expected to provide approximately 1,500 construction jobs.  Once complete, the facilities are expected to create 350 full-time jobs, and generate $4.1 million in state and local taxes, $48 million over the next ten years.

When all the factors were added up, including the size of the overall $123 million investment and the purchase price for the land, the HARBORcenter Development proposal gained favor.  In addition to building the new facilities, the Buffalo Sabres agreed to the following terms:

Pay $2 million for the Webster Block

  • Seek city residents for post-construction jobs
  • Agreed to use local workforce for construction and meet 25% minority and 5% female hiring goals
  • Agreed to 25% minority business and 5% women business enterprise participation goals
  • Pay Living Wage for employees of ice rink and parking ramp
  • Attain the highest reasonable environmental standards for building
  • Expand parking in the building to make attendance at Canalside events more convenient for the public
  • Construct a facility that attracts new hockey-themed events/tournaments, and creates new opportunities for other special events
  • Committed to public, community and youth hockey use

There are some other details emerging.  What has been called a 'skybridge' connecting the complex to First Niagara Center appears to be misleading.  The complex will be built over Perry Street creating a tunnel (see Central Library, One HSBC Center) according to a video shown during the project presentation (screen caps below, full video here). 

sabresperry.JPGThe exterior design has not been finalized.  The Sabres have agreed to solicit additional community input through a charette process. 

Delaware North is expected to be involved in a planned sports bar and restaurant.  The Tim Horton's at the corner of Main and Perry would be unique to the chain by celebrating Sabres' history.  New Era is considering opening a store in the complex.  The Delaware Avenue flagship store would remain open.

HARBORcenter Development also committed to the start of construction in March 2013, with the projected completion of the parking ramp, retail and ice rinks by the beginning of the 2014 Buffalo Sabres Hockey Season.  The hotel is projected to be completed by spring of 2015.   The Buffalo Common Council is expected to consider selling the parcel to the developer on September 4.

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Very cool. Looks to be a great project. Great job by both sides involved to agree to the bullet-ed points. I think its great that we can have a standard be to pay above minimum wage for employees so they can in fact survive off one job. I think this should be implemented in other big businesses, big fast food chains,etc. Awesome!

Score: -3 ( 25 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

No one's going to to "survive" making ten dollars an hour.

replied to Tom
Score: -22 ( 38 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Exactly, which is why it's a stupid requirement... parking attendants or hotel cleaners are unskilled, entry level positions, not careers. Why should they be forced to pay way more than what it takes to fill these positions?

These are jobs for kids or second jobs for someone, if people want a living wage, go to school for something useful or learn a trade.

replied to Up and coming
Score: 16 ( 54 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

hmm.. well some people don't have the money to go to school. They need to work to survive. Many people work multiple minimum wage jobs just to live. So making these requirements will lessen the burden on some of those people.

replied to gtscout716
Score: -4 ( 32 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

First off, your suggestion that someone not being able to go to college is somehow relegated to minimum wage is downright ignorant. I know multiple people who never stepped foot on a college campus that have done very well for themselves.

People who work at minimum wage jobs for full time as adults are there for many reasons. Most of which are their own doing. To suggest that these jobs should pay more simply because these folks have no other alternative job prospects is insulting.

Here is a novel idea..if the paycheck that comes with 40 hours at $7.25 is not enough for you...WORK MORE THAN 40 HOURS! Most professionals work more than 40 hours a week and so should these people.

If working more is not an option...IMPROVE YOURSELF.

The idea that people actually think others can take short cuts in life and then demand life be made easier is the reason everything is so f'ed up these days.

replied to Tom
Score: 16 ( 36 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

long gone- good riddance

replied to longgone
Score: -1 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

its called the cycle of poverty..

replied to longgone
Score: -1 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Paying a 'living wage' to have someone serve coffee or check parking stubs is not going to break the cycle of poverty.

Think about that for a second. Think about who the person who is 25 years old and the best job they qualify for is a parking attendant. Think about who that person really is and what they need to do in order to qualify for a better life. Paying an extra $2.50/hr to that person is not going to change their life.

You want to break the cycle...you need to do it before they in the real world with obligations.

Take for example an internship program run by the Sabres. Take 50 kids a year and find them when they are sophomores in High School. Have them work a paid internship for $7.25 an hour for 15 hours a week, 50 weeks out of the year for 2 years.

Put these kids around successful folks who can provide advice and leadership. Teach the kids how to appropriately in the work environment. Focus them on the importance of proper grammar, etiquette and hygiene. Every year add a new group of kids.

It's going to do NOTHING for the person who is 25 and qualifies to flip burgers but NOTHING from the outside is ever going to change that. It will allow a group of kids the opportunity to break out and not find themselves flipping burgers in 10 years.

But ideas like this do not go over well with voters because they are not for voters.

replied to Tom
Score: 2 ( 12 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Totally agree with your suggestion. But I've seen people who are in their mid 20s or older working at a fast food restaurant and a superstore like Target, Walmart, etc. They are working over 40 hours and still struggling. If we paid them $10 an hour instead of even $8, the first 40 hours of their week they would make $4,000 a year more. That would give them more money to spend and put back into the economy and not hurt these huge companies like McDonalds, burger king, walmart, target etc.

People are not the way they are solely because of themselves, the environment they were raised in is the largest factor. I think while we cannot change those people, we should allow them to make a livable wage and spend money not just on basic necessities to survive. People spending money makes the economy strong, the more money spent the stronger the economy (as long as its real money, not all credit).

replied to longgone
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What you fail to grasp is the money is not yours to give. You also fail to grasp that many places like Burger King are franchises, so it's not the corporation paying the wage it's the business owner..who is mostly local.

What people like you need to do is stop trying to make every job something that can support a person or a family. The economy needs places like Target and Burger King to pay low wages because it allows them to have lower prices. Guess who is in need of the lowest prices?

The person who is working at Target should only work there for a couple of year. They can built a resume from that. Customer Service - Warehouse - Dealing with money. All desirable skills for jobs that pay more.

But let's be honest for a second.

Two of the main reasons why some people can only take jobs at places like Burger King or similar is because of drug tests and criminal records. NOBODY can do anything for that.

And before you get all high and mighty, pro athletes who make millions can't give up the herb or stay out of trouble...so it's not just a poverty thing. It's a stupidity thing.

replied to Tom
Score: 0 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

wow. well I realize that they are local franchises, but those people are making a ton of money still. We live at the whim of the rich. They can decide to raise prices whenever to keep their profit margins high. Greed is the worst thing for our society, but greed runs our society.

I agree with your third paragraph, but it doesn't always work out like that.

And the rest of your comment is stereotypical garbage. People are not inherit-ably bad. They commit crimes to make money or do drugs to feel good. They were brought up in a terrible situation with no real way out. For you to make comments that they are stupid because of the environment they group up in is just plain wrong. You do realize some of the inner city Buffalo high schools only have a 30% graduation rate. So for those kids who didn't graduate for various reasons, mainly the environment they were raised in, they have to be relegated to minimum wage jobs on which they have no hope to do anything else but those jobs and work 40+ hours a week just to survive. And then we wonder why people deal drugs, and go on welfare...

replied to longgone
Score: -2 ( 12 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

If you think a franchise owner is making a ton of money...go start a franchise by forking over hundreds of thousands of dollars and make it work. The reality is those businesses come with long hours and a ton of risk. But hey..we should just take that away because you want more from them without risk and long hours. Pathetic!

To suggest that it's somehow ok to commit crimes to make money or do drugs to feel good shows you're a fool.

You know what makes me feel good? A hard days work. It did when I worked at Tim Hortons in High School. It does now as a business owner.

People like you are the problem. People like you are the reason I feel no guilt for the poor. People like you feed racism and extend negative stereotypes because you try and paint a picture that those who do not have are helpless from making good decisions or doing anything on their own. You're the problem.

replied to Tom
Score: 5 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

haha yes I am the problem. You don't know who I am. funny how you change your tone to a personal attack, shows your intellect.

And I understand your first point and it is a good one. So I think I agree with you about fast food chains somewhat. But walmart could certainly afford to pay $10 an hour. And yes if you are small business owner you shouldn't have to pay more because you can't afford to, you don't need to support your employees if you, yourself cannot support yourself.

Also I didn't suggest that drugs were by any means okay or good, but they are a part of the problem, and for some an attempt to get out of the ghetto. If you think everyone who sells drugs is bad you are just flat out wrong.

Poor people work hard too. They are not as highly educated, they didn't inherit money from the parents, they struggle everyday to support their kids and make ends meet, and that is very difficult at $8 an hour even for 60 hours a week. Just because the media paints a picture that the poor are lazy and are where they are because they are stupid is wrong, and an ignorant idea to have.

Maybe your just misinterpreting what my main point was. Hard work is good and people need to work hard, but it doesn't always get rewarded.

replied to longgone
Score: -2 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

The sad part about the parking ramp having to pay a 'living wage' is the cost of parking just went up 30% for everyone.

Here's to hoping that most of the booth operators are replaced by machines.

replied to gtscout716
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Oh, I HAVE A MASTERS IN URBAN PLANNING and there are no entry level positions so I CLEAN. Your comment is ignorant of people's circumstances.

replied to gtscout716
Score: 4 ( 6 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

well people do. As my reply below many people work multiple minimum wage jobs just to live, because they don't have the money to go to school. So to make it a livable wage job will lessen their burden a little bit.

replied to Up and coming
Score: -6 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Why pay higher wages if there's someone else who would be happy to take the job at whatever wage is offered? There are plenty of people who pay no rent and live near transit or can drive to their work without some sort of big struggle. Jobs exist at whatever wage and if no one wants them they will more likely be eliminated than turned into salaried $100,000 positions. But of course the long lines of people who show up to apply will belie your argument.

replied to Tom
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The retail aspect is interesting, but I am still not that happy with the project. It is certainly better than an empty lot, but a hockey "casino" that people will drive to and then drive out of, having never set foot outside the building and a super Tim Horton's doesn't seem like something with "universal" appeal to me. Most people in Buffalo will never even utilize the rinks.

The retail, along with the hotel, can enhance the project in my eyes as long as everything is not all hockey or sports, but it doesn't look that way to me. Sports bar, Sabres themed Tim Horton's, New Era, etc. We need things with a broader appeal. And this is a sports fan saying this.

Score: -26 ( 60 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

All that being said, the Living Wage provisions as well as using local workforce for constructions and city residents for the permanent jobs is a very good thing to have achieved on a project like this.

replied to Slu
Score: 5 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

You are forgetting to consider possible consequences of living wage Provisions. Businesses will not move to an area where they are forced to pay more than they can afford. If they can afford it then it sounds great, in theory. My point is that living wage provisions are useless and counterproductive if there are no businesses moving in to pay them. Just sayin.

replied to Slu
Score: 18 ( 30 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

It's a horrible thing. Just when in the heck did your address become a qualification or skill set. The jobs should go to the best applicant who can perform the requirements of the job.

replied to Slu
Score: 15 ( 25 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Skating is universal, everyone can enjoy it, they will have time for organizations like http://www.woundedheroesfund.net/ and http://www.sabahinc.org/

replied to Slu
Score: 9 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

The only thing that Sucks about this proposal is that we have to wait two years for it to be completed. :(

Score: 32 ( 38 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Please do not close off Perry Street. We need to connect the Cobblestone District to Canalside as much as possible.

Score: 14 ( 22 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

"What has been called a 'skybridge' connecting the complex to First Niagara Center appears to be misleading. The complex will be built over Perry Street (see Central Library, One HSBC Center) according to a video shown during the project presenation "

replied to hamp
Score: 5 ( 9 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

wow. if it is anything like the downtown library it'll create a dead zone at the street level.

replied to brownteeth
Score: 6 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I agree with concern on this aspect, but I need more details. Perry street is the most important connection between Cobblestone and Canalside. As Canalside is eventually built out, Cobblestone will be the natural progression for development to expand.

What is going to happen at the ground floor of perry street? Is it going to be enclosed or just covered by a bridge? If there is going to be a skybridge, why can't the existing public right of way just remain?

I'm excited about the proposal - but what happens at Perry Street has me concerned. That is going to be a very important link moving forward.

replied to hamp
Score: 10 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

"Perry street is the most important connection between Cobblestone and Canalside"

What about Main St, Washington, Pearl and Scott? Perry is probably a distant 5th on this list.

replied to townline
Score: -9 ( 19 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

What?!

Main and washington run north-south. They do not even go to cobblestone. Scott street runs sort of to the fringe and doesn't even go near where there are actual cobblestone streets. Perry runs directly through center of the area commonly known as the cobblestone district and fronts the lands (sabres parking lots) that is most likely to be developed in the future. Pearl street is completely on the other side of the site and runs in the opposite direction of the cobblestone district.

Perry Street is and will be the single most important linkage to the Cobblestone district.

replied to Up and coming
Score: 12 ( 14 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I'm sure Pegula, Black, Mayor Brown and the rest of us in Western New York will make sure your "concerns" are addressed.

replied to townline
Score: -6 ( 16 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

If this were the last available block to develop in Buffalo, I might begin to understand the criticisms. However, it's not.

Pegulla will over deliver on this, and future projects.

Get New Era more involved, and let them run hockey tournaments the way they do baseball in the summer. This is an exciting development.

Score: 21 ( 23 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

please do not close off Perry St.
no more superblocks.

Score: 19 ( 25 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Very excited about the New Era possibilities. It's an international brand with an outrageous coolness factor that can really make this a great spot.

Score: 8 ( 12 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Not completely certain about the main street facade. A fantastic project however it looks like the designer ran out of ideas because of time constraints. No offense.

Score: 5 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

A rink capacity for college hocky of 1800 is too small. Given the nature of sports enthusiasm in Buffalo, if Canisius becomes a hot hockey item, many more than 1800 will want to attend their games. I think a capacity of 4000 is more appropriate for that rink and there should be an attendance marker that moves Canisus into First Niagara for some games.

Score: 2 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

If Canisius gets that hot, they can move their games across the street........

Score: 6 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Great to hear about the Community Charette process. Kudos to the Sabres for that.

Score: 7 ( 9 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

The 'skybridge' will create a wall separating Canalside from the cobblestone area. Not good at all.

Keep Perry St fully open! and stop messing with the street grid.

Score: 10 ( 24 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Lol, cool your jets rocket man, nobody's closing it off.

replied to 300miles
Score: 0 ( 18 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Actually several new convention centers which occupy multiple city blocks have streets running right thru them with sidewalks and retail at ground level. They make great places for bus stops and with a 2-3 story height opening don't come across as a wall.

replied to 300miles
Score: 5 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

When most of the city is only 2-3 stories... then it's a wall!

replied to saltecks
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I don't mind the idea of a skybridge linking to F'n Center. Actually I'm a little excited about the synergy of how you can create one, world class hockey tournament facility. It maybe important to have it all, essentially under 1 roof.

Hoever, What they're proposing here is essentially extending the building over perry, not just a bridge. That is what is going to make it imposing and dividing. A bridge can be designed to be light and unobtrusive, and provide a rather nice canopy. But how its proposed here appears to turn Perry into basically a pedestrian tunnel.

replied to 300miles
Score: 6 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I think this project is terrific overall. I'm very excited about the things that are happening in this area.

But I don't like the idea of building over Perry Street either. The way the Central Library is built over Ellicott Street (or HSBC Center over Main Street) is not something we should be using as a positive model anywhere! That kind of construction kills streets dead and the city should not allow it.

It's also not clear to me from the picture, but it looks like the building is not coming out to the corner of Washington and Scott? Why on earth not? Maybe I'm misinterpreting the image.

Score: 9 ( 15 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Check this place out

Gonda Bar Ilan University

and fire the designers for the UB Med Campus. They are all a bunch of Warhol camera sleepers.

i could come up with a few ideas for this project.

Score: -4 ( 4 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Another thing that concerns me besides the problems with covering over Perry Street is that it looks like a solid wall of parking garage along the first level on Washington Street. This could be a nice block, but it will be dead if it is relegated to a lifeless wall of a parking garage.


And, who says we need 1000 parking spaces? Put fewer parking spaces in, and reduce the size of the parking garage. Put a small skywalk over Perry Street, and that's enough.

Score: 6 ( 12 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Pretty much spot on.

All of Canalside has almost no regard for washington street - despite the fact that it is the most heavily traveled street by both cars and pedestrians between downtown and the waterfront.

Again - the lack of vision in the original RFP and lack of vision that ECHDC has for the area's development is a huge problem that continues to show up in projects like this. It can be corrected, but I am really concerned that we do not have the right people in place at either the City of ECHDC to be able to articulate important urban design details.

replied to hamp
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HSBC Atrium will have to look at a walk for a parking garage as well? Will HSBC want to deal with that.? The parking garage component is the worst part of this and will make Washington street look horrible..It should be denied...but everyone in charge is just too happy with the 123 million dollar investment so they will overlook Washington street looking like crap.....

replied to hamp
Score: -1 ( 15 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Last time I checked all parking was underground?

replied to elmdog
Score: -6 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

You need to check again, then. By far, the largest square footage component of this project is the street level and above ground parking garage.

replied to Up and coming
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Replace the 300,000+ sq ft of PARKING GARAGE and put in retail and housing! Find underground space and watch this place really grow.

replied to hamp
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Someone in this city is finally getting with the program and incorporating parking into a new build! Most of the parking is below ground under the building where it should be! Seriously? what would make you happy?..more surface lots?...gimme a break!! I dont think you would all be complaining if you stopped to consider the BIG PICTURE.. this is going to add volumes to the overall Canalside area if you think of it as part of the overall project ..including: * the already completed Canalside/Commercial slip area (proven successful over the past year), * a re-watered faux canal and mixed use area where the Aud stood (tons of progress this past summer), *Courtyard/Mariot at the Donovan Blg overlooking the whole thing...all of this working in concert the the already established Naval Park and Marina.....now to do someting about those God-aweful ugly Marine Drive Apts (I can live with the skyway)
After nearly 40 years in this town, it nice to see some real improvements!!!

replied to Buffaboy
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Mr Pegula should buy the Bills next and then build a waterfront stadium for the Bills and to play the Winter Classic there. Go Terry and Kimm !

Score: 5 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

this will be awesome...especially when the light-rail is complete and gets extended to the airport so people can shoot right from Cheektowaga to downtown

Score: 1 ( 9 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Please tell me that the Main street side will be VERY pedestrian friendly...outdoor patio space, walkable, tree lined, tables and chair for sitting etc....This will be used and see by all of the inner harbor and need to attract people after concerts or people visiting the harbor area....It has to be a 4 season area as well...Propane warming stands around tables, etc.....
What the heck is a Destination Tim Hortons? I really like the rendering with the Buffalo Grill with the Blue BUffalo atop

Score: 8 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

TIM Horton played for the Sabres.

replied to elmdog
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I love it, and can't wait to see it built, but.....

Does the opportunity exist to build the parking garage underground? In the renderings, the parking garage is above ground, and the ice rinks are built on top of it.

Might make a lot of sense to build the ramp underground, and have the hotel, storefronts, and rinks, all at street level. (Maybe the rink at slightly below street level, so passers by could look down on it)

It would add to the energy of CanalSide, and the streetscape vibe, to see the hockey games and practice through windows, for those passing by on the street. If Canisius Hockey were to play games here, a curtain could be drawn across the windows to block the view for passers by. Or, maybe only the 400 seat rink is at street level, and the larger rink is above or next to it.

The design is really good right now. It has a chance to be great though. Underground parking is expensive to build, and since it's not my money building this, I'm certainly not the guy to make the call.

Score: 9 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

When are the Sabres going to join the other top-notch organizations and get their own practice facility? I was very surprised that would not be part of this project.

Nonetheless, this will be a huge success. And for everyone with wet diapers because they don't like it, you're going to eat your words in 2015. I can't wait to watch a Sabres game, then walk next door for some bar-league, and then have 2 or 11 beers at one of the ever-expanding list of choices in the area.

Some residential would be nice, though. And hopefully the canalside design standards are applied this time, at least for the street level design.

Score: 5 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Why do they need a separate practice facility from the First Niagara Center? Seems like a waste to me. The only can't practice at FNC 12-15 times a year.

replied to LouisTully
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Well, for starters many NHL teams have one. I couldn't find the exact number but to name a few: Avs, Rangers, Flyers, BLUE JACKETS!(yeah, they have one and Sabres don't), Canadiens, Leafs, Caps(in a facility similar to this), Pens, Sharks... Is that enough? And two of those I found have the facilities attached. Basically when Terry Pegula claimed he wanted to make this a world class organization, getting a dedicated practice facility became necessary. And not Northtown, when compared to any aforementioned facility... it is a dump. Yes, a dump.

Another small but enormous reason for a separate pad is to maintain superb condition of the surface your multi-million dollar athletes are skating on. So they don't catch a divot and tear a muscle. So the puck doesn't get stuck under the zamboni door when your team is down with 4 seconds left.

How's that?

http://bluejackets.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=48206http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/mediagallery.htm?galleryId=8855

replied to Slu
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I just listened to the press conference and now I know where you got the 12-15 from. So straight from the horses mouth. I also recall Black saying the Sabres would not use HarborCenter. I find it puzzling considering so many teams have dedicated practice facilities; but they must have a reason why they don't want one.
Nevertheless, practicing at Northtown for an NHLer is kind of like the Urban Studies course I took at Canisius, Urban Plunge, where the goal was to immerse you in the less glamorous sides of life in a city.

Cheers, boys! Enjoy the staph you'll get from those locker rooms.

replied to Slu
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Folks, this is a huge parking garage with some ice rinks and a hotel on top.

The designers need to make sure the ground floor is pedestrian-friendly all the way around it.

Score: 9 ( 17 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Oh that's all it is? What would you do different? Did you miss the restaurant they are speaking of?

Honestly, Just be happy about something please.

replied to hamp
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It could be a lot more than a huge parking garage if it's done right. But we've got a way to go.
I see some retail, but much of the street frontage is parking garage.

The Sabres and their architects have talked a lot about getting the "community involved".
This is the time to get involved, and let the comments flow. It's not time to take a happy pill and go to sleep. We've got work to do.

replied to galaxyjay
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Actually there is a total of 16000 square feet of retail on the ground, not including the lobby of the hotel.

replied to hamp
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Speaking of retail and hotel...

Does anyone else find it ironic and even let out a chuckle when driving down Chippewa between Delaware and Elmwood and the Hampton Inn is lined with images of "the shoppes at Hampton Inn & Suites"???

replied to saltecks
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Right. What it really speaks to is the total lack of parameters provided in the RFP, which was the result of a total lack of vision for the development of this entire area.

The development isn't bad - but there are just some completely obvious elements in the design that were developed with no understanding of the project's context. The people leading our waterfront's development have got do define better vision - or else every project like this that comes up will be fought tooth and nail.

If you don't give a developer parameters - his only parameter is his bottom line. Nothing wrong with that - he's in it to make money. But it is the responsibility of our leaders (City, ECHDC, Higgins, etc...) to have the foresight to provide the appropriate design parameters. There just aren't the people in any of those positions who actually have the capability to articulate what those parameters need to be. For the most part, they're good people, trying to get things done. But they aren't complemented with the appropriate fields of expertise to make sure its done right. Its extremely frustrating.

replied to hamp
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Smells like Tim's drafting up a lawsuit!

replied to townline
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I'm not Tielman and have no affiliation with him or Campaign for Greater Buffalo.

replied to Up and coming
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Its sad that some in society have come to a point here in 2012 where we have to look out for the wages of workers to the point where we have to establish living wage standards and thats nothing against the goal that people make a decent wage but its the fact that unskilled labor has been so demeaned and degraded by the arrogance of those who devalue the work of "unskilled" laborers. We're all in this together and we need both skilled and unskilled people in this world to make things work well. Corporation X would be nothing without the cleaning crews, janitors, maintenance workers, etc. Not everyone is cut out for college and frankly as long as someone likes what they do, and takes pride in what they do with a strong work ethic we should not devalue them simply because they may be unskilled or be in a "dirty" job. You know whether you might be called "unskilled' or not the fact is that unskilled laborers do have skills at what they do. You might think it trivial but I bet an experienced hotel housekeeper can run laps around a "skilled" guy off the streets. Instead of dumbing down and trivializing "unskilled" laborers lets turn the tables and look at some skilled careers that are vastly overpaid? Whats wrong with someone who likes an unskilled job doing that as his/ her career? Should that career really just dismissed as something a college kid should do to make a little money? Not everyone in unskilled jobs are college kids. For some, its life, and frankly Im thankful for that. I would rather have an experienced housekeeper cleaning my hotel room than some kid just looking to make some drinking money for the weekend while in college with a few months experience. I like a show like Undercover Boss on tv that shows just how uneducated or "lazy" mister big pay top dog can be when he/ she goes down into the trenches for awhile with the "unskilled" who are often associated with uneducated or lazy. Its a great equalizer.

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Flyguy, that little button that says "Enter" makes paragraphs.

replied to flyguy
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If the project doesn't address an attractive outdoor space component the project will be a complete loss - Main street and Washington should be redone and more pedestrian friendly , trees, seating, warming areas for winter etc.....

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[Deleted- off topic]

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Speaking of museums, whatever happened to a Buffalo Sports Hall of Fame going in on CanalSide?

replied to BingBing
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That Perry street cover is very bad.

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I'd like to see the structure back off Perry St a bit so as to not hide the FNC's atrium, which is the only attractive part of that building. the idea is great and the building look ok considering its a parking garage at heart, but it could definitely be rendered to mesh better with the existing arena. I can't help but think there's a reason why they have not shown us a rendering of what the Perry block will look like (that I know of).

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"...meet 25% minority and 5% female hiring goals"

Buffalo has no racial majority. Can someone please define minority in this agreement?

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The definition of minority, and the concept of affirmative action are fairly basic. Why don't you try "Google" if you truly don't know what these things mean.

replied to Buffalogni
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Ok, if it is basic, then tell me. Mathematically, there is no majority, only minorities. The goal of this agreement might as well be 100% minority hiring.

The statement in this agreement doesn't make sense.

replied to hamp
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Let's try this another way. Go back to your days in history class. Who were the people that suffered from discrimination, and lack of basic civil rights. Which people have been left behind because our society has marginalized them because of what they look like, or who they are?


We have decided, as a civilized society that these groups, that have been so seriously disadvantaged, need a helping hand. It's as simple as that.

replied to Buffalogni
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hamp>"Who were the people that suffered from discrimination, and lack of basic civil rights?"

Wait - so now you're saying the Senecas should be given preferences in downtown Buffalo?
Wow, this gets complicated. Is there a list somewhere of which groups you say should and shouldn't, and why, how, etc, ...?

replied to hamp
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some friendly advice, hamp: don't feed the trolls.

replied to hamp
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Good advice from grad.

Arguments favoring hiring preferences don't hold up well in debates. So if advocating them, the best strategy perhaps is to just say it, feel self satisfaction, then ignore any questions or alternative views.

Bottom line might be that anybody who applies for a job at HarborCenter and feels the preferences are unfair can just use a p.o. box at a post office with a city address, and answer 'yes' to the are-you-a-minority question (which is a proven successful strategy for the rich & powerful) - and then let them try to prove you aren't if they want to. Maybe they'll just accept anyone's word for these kinds of things, and then there won't be the unfairness.

replied to grad94
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I've only read it by one or two other people, so let me throw my suggestion behind having a covered, or preferably enclosed connection from a Metro Rail station directly to the building. Being able to get inside it, or to a link to the arena, from a train without having to walk outside in the winter would be nice.

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I'm liking this thing less and less, and here's why.


One of the most prominent sites at Canalside will soon be turned into a giant parking garage. And while I don't usually subscribe to conspiracy theories, I smell a rat here.


The City has been trying to get a 1000 car parking garage built at Canalside for almost a decade now. There have been parking studies and architectural studies, economic studies etc, but the city has not been able to get their parking ramp built.

Along comes the RFP for the Webster Block, and which proposal is selected? The one that is basically a huge parking garage. A parking garage, that even the Sabres say they don't need.


They can't even point to any studies that say that we need 1000 parking spaces at Canalside.
When pressed, the Sabres have given the rationale that people at the Medical Campus will park there and ride Metro Rail. Does anyone believe this?


Why would the Sabres build a garage they say they don't need? Maybe because that's what the city has wanted all along.


A Tim Hortons, and a New Era store aren't enough for me to like this thing. And blank walls lining Main Street and Washington Street, not to mention the Perry Street tunnel are too high a price to pay for something this city seems to have plenty of - parking.

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A parking garage had to be included as part of the rfp. Thats why both Paladino and the Sabres proposal had approx 1000 car garage included.

replied to hamp
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Why does this have to be done on the Webster Block....one of the most valuable blocks in Canalside?

A hockey rink / hotel could be built adjacent to HSBC Arena on Scott, Perry, Washington, Illinois, Mississippi or that general area.

It doesnt make sense to me.

Wasting so much land for access ramps is also ridiculus

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Why on this lot? Because the other lots you mention are privately owned and used for parking by HSBC employees and Buffalo News. Parking is not sexy but needs to part of this to make economic sense. This a a huge prominent developement on a key sight, that will draw thousands of people local and out of town. It will also be a catalyst for other attractions that will continue to create density and 24/7 activity. In just two years visitors can stay in the hotel for tournements, grab a coffee, lunch, beers, skate on the canal, and shop, maybe take in a pro hockey game, grab some more dinner, all on the same block in downtown Buffalo. I think (hope) the design can be tweaked a bit, but otherwise, this a great.

replied to paulsobo
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Buffalogni>"Mathematically, there is no majority, ..."

The 2010 Census says Buffalo does have a racial majority at 50.4%.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36/3611000.html
2+ years since April 2010 that might not be accurate, but it's still pretty recent so it's likely still true if it matters.

Anyhow, if there wasn't a true majority and so everyone would be a minority mathematically, then to answer the question from Buffalogni, I'd suppose minority in these rules would refer to anyone who isn't judged to be of whichever racial category has the largest current plurality.

longgone>"It's a horrible thing. Just when in the heck did your address become a qualification or skill set. The jobs should go to the best applicant who can perform the requirements of the job."

Agreed it's dumb, even horrible, but as a practical matter probably a lot of job applicants can just say they live in the city even if they don't. They can use addresses of friends or relatives, etc.

City Hall has a lot of difficultly even enforcing residency rules for some of its own top officials who have quietly lived in burbs. A city treasurer was a famous example a few years back. It's very difficult to prove where someone lives. And then even if the Sabres ever find out a HarborCenter employee who they thought lives in city really lives in a burb, the person can just say they later moved or were transitioning between places. They probably can't fire someone over that without risking an unfair labor practices lawsuit. (Not that they'd even want to fire an otherwise good employee anyway.)

Another question is if a job applicant claims without proof to be part minority (just like very-caucasian-looking Massachusetts politician Elizabeth Warren did when applying for faculty jobs), how would Harbor Center's hiring department decide?
DNA test?

If both rules were enforced in a serious way (which of course they won't be, but if they were...), it could get complicated - private investigators to track down where people sleep, and DNA tests to verify racial backgrounds, ...

Greedy corporations like Ikea, H&M, Whole Foods, Apple store, etc are all missing out on so many fun rules by not wanting Canalside locations, lol

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This project sounds almost identical to the Decade + old, New Roc City in New Rochelle, NY: www.newroccity.com.

New Roc features 2 skating rinks (one doubles as a go-cart track in summer), bowling alley, supermarket, movie theatre, restaurants, arcade, comedy club, Hotel, and a sporting goods store. It does not feature an NHL relationship or a design by HOK, but it went a long way toward making New Rochelle livable.

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Does anyone know if that incredibly ugly old Aud trolley stop will be torn down as part of all this? It was ugly when it was built and will now look even worse.

And speaking of tearing things down, when will the Marine Drive projects be torn down and replaced with some nice tall glass condo buildings like a real city would have in such a desirable space?

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I was wondering the same thing. The old train platform was never really completed. In true Buffalo form it was designed to have a jumbo screen (the super structure was built) but the city could never come up with the funding for the screen, so it has sat empty for 20 years.... with that said if they in fact keep the station hopefully they can put in the screens. It might be nice to see what was going on in canalside that day and the near future. Ad revenues could help finance it.

replied to buffknut
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I have read the RFP and don't see the requirement for a large parking garage.

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Mr. Pegula,

Please don't build a tunnel around Perry Street between Washington and Main Streets. It will needlessly create a visual barrier and physical obstruction that will affect traffic and pedestrian flow in the area. Being that it is an east-west corridor, please also consider the sunlight and weather implications.

The western exterior of the First Niagara Center is a visual barrier of glass and brick with no depth - all of that changes when you reach the corner of Main and Perry Streets. Suddenly, the sidewalk becomes wider, the architectural pallet changes, and you begin to see what lies to the east of the Center as you look down Perry Street. This is a good thing.

Now, consider what that experience would be like if we extended the western exterior wall of the First Niagara Center all the way down Main Street to the corner of Main and Scott Streets. Next, let's cut out a hole big enough for cars and people on Perry Street and add storefronts to the first floor of the wall between Perry and Scott Streets. We've now effectively closed off Canalside from all that is east of Main Street.

The height of the structure over Perry Street means that the area in front of the First Niagara Center is completely shaded every afternoon and evening, and what is now the Perry Street Tunnel is the precipitant of accelerated wind flow, making what is already a very windy corridor during the winter months even worse for people entering and exiting the First Niagara Center or walking up and down Perry Street.

If you want to build a "sky bridge," please construct something light in appearance, similar to the one over Ellicott Street at Virginia, connecting UB's Bioinformatics building to the Hauptman Woodward building.

Respectfully yours,

Exchange

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When will the city fix the Marine Drive Apartments? They are on land that is prime real estate.

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What about a smaller version of the BassPro Shop included in the retail space? No, I'm serious.

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The second bass pro design was a really nice reality towards the great outdoors.

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It would be nice to have that bass pro experience but then we would have to expand the district.

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If the Seneca nation built a casino to complement the interests of travelers to the niagara falls casino. Perhaps bass pro could be involved with that side of the entertainment district.

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If the Seneca's are planning to build, Bass pro could build at the Moore and Miami lots. Get the city to renovate that boardwalk etc. the advertisement for casino and bass pro would be appealing. However it puts bass pro in the drivers seat for revitalizing the waterway.

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LOL @ all the NIMBY crybabies whining about Perry St and walls. Sounds like what you guys really wanted were delightful brick Canal Era homes arranged around a charming little square with hanging planters and rainbow flags. Isn't a site downtown between a 40 story office tower and an 18,000 seat arena just a bitch?

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Not really - just don't want a god damn parking garage along 50% of the frontage. Are your standards really that low?

replied to sonyactivision
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Look at it as a funnel that moves people to where they can shop, dine and take a break. There are too few people living nearby to accomplish what you're hoping. To bring the crowds in, you need ample parking. *sorry*

replied to townline
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I agree...I wish more folks would just admit that it's nice to see some progress in this town..FINALLY!!!

Really...and all this talk of severing Canalside from the Cobblestone District by installing a "skybridge" is absurd....
All of Cobblestone is a glorified parking lot with a few bars(one of which just closed its doors), which all rely too much on arena events to be of much success. It is quite posible that development of the Webster block may spur some developer to build something more useful on all the ample space in the Cobblestone District.

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