Commuter Rail in Buffalo-Niagara
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Leave a comment@Polonia, The corridors out that far would not just serve salamanca it would serve a number of stops in between. It would be interesting to see how many of the people along these outlying corridors work in the city. I think there are probably alot of people making that trek.
More than likely less than we think. Of course there are the inevitable people who choose to live a little far from their jobs in order to enjoy their location. But if someone lived in Salamanca and worked in the city, that would be one hell of a commute even with a train. There is more than likely not enough people living in these far outposts who commute to support the operating costs of this. Let us keep the rail to Erie and MAYBE Niagara counties.
MetroRail always got a bad rep for being a "train to nowhere", yet it does pretty damn well just from serving the dozen or so smaller nowheres in between.
If a half-realized dream from 30 years ago can today feed something like BNMC, Think of what a Salamanca line could do for Orchard Park or East Aurora. What a Lockport connection would mean for Amherst. How much growth the Tonawandas could reap from a connection to NF...
Even Grand Island is less of an island than Buffalo is when it comes to modern transportation. Sitting between NYC and Toronto doesn't do us any good unless we are better connected to both and more than a pit stop on the road between.
If you are from there, I apologize for my frankness but there is absolutely nothing good that a line from Niagara Falls or Salamanca will add to places like Orchard Park or Tonawanda. When the average income of these places is whatever the local federal assistance program pays out, it will not trickle down to other towns. And this is coming from someone who always sides with the small guy because I am one. I would love to see a train line clear across the state touching every town it can, but it just would not pan out.
The single Buffalo light rail line is actually ranked 19th in the US by daily ridership.
Now imagine those number if it could serve the Northern, Western, and Southern suburbs, and not just the city by itself.
The Park and Ride at UB South has been a great success for commuters in the immediate area going to work downtown; there is no reason expansions could not be just a successful. And with the Buffalo-Niagara Medical Campus growing at its current pace will guarantee a light rail expansion for the foreseeable future.
Put a Park and Ride on Millersport Highway, just north of UB in Amherst, one by the Airport in Cheektowaga, and one in the Southtowns(McKinley Mall, Southgate Plaza, Fairgrounds); and watch the line explode with activity.
There is no lie that most people hate driving in the city, and hate parking even worse.
Just thought I would add to your analysis.
So I took a look at this article on Wikipedia and I noticed a couple of things, one being that Buffalo is actually high up on a list like this regarding transportation in the first place. Another thing that I saw was that Buffalo and Houston had about the same amount of line, 4-6 mi. And the third thing, which ties the last thing together is that Houston opened their LRT in 2004 while we opened ours in 1985, and Houston is expanding their system. In fact most of the cities who were on the list that built their system before 2004 had a significantly larger/longer line than the Buffalo system. Combine this with the current daily ridership statistics and the potential to expand, if we did who knows we may come in the top 5 for LRT DR.
Another thing to note would be the fact that Buffalo would have to more than double it's ridership to move into the top 10. So being 19th is a little bit of an abberation. A more accurate statement would be that Buffalo is in the bottom third off all daily ridership in the US. I removed the bottom 4 because having a daily ridership of less than 1k should preclude you from the conversation.
Didn't the NFTA commission a study last fall to explore expanding the Rail to North Campus? I haven't heard anything about the results of this study and its been nearly a year.
Hopefully UB will push this to become a reality.
UB already have two campuses on the Metro Rail Line. And they ferry thousands of students and faculty every day between North and South Campuses via bus.
The ridership is already there without considering commuters from North of the city who will take advantage of this as well.
Transportation connections are not something that only the few dozen square miles of the city and inner ring. As much as Buffalo would benefit in the next century by having MetroRail extensions, commuter rail would benefit the entire region including surrounding counties.
BRO often debates sprawl and how we will handle the problems it has bestowed upon us. But commuter rail is an effective solution that is already improving cities far denser than our own, as well as metro regions that are both struggling and continuing to bloom with far worse sprawl issues.
NFTA constantly faces discouragement from naysayers who doubt the wisdom of extending lines that will benefit many in a small area. But extending those options to even more, in a far-wider region is a no-brainer.
Economically, it draws from and enhances several communities, so it appeals to state and federal funds to benefit multiple communities across this portion of the state. Environmentally, it unifies the struggles of urban, suburban and even exurban peoples. Socially, it brings together the common causes of dozens of towns and cities that make up WNY and even NYS and Canada.
Even one, low-cost, long needed route between NF and BUF would help pave the way toward future expansions to the southtowns, eastern ring, and urban connections such as Larkin and the airport.
Yes, we will eventually need that $25Billion extension to Amherst... But a simple $10Million (don't quote me on numbers, I'm theorizing here) line in a different form and in a different direction can actually improve the likelihood that the other projects will get put on the table too.
More lines equals more money from the public and more debt. The NFTA can barely operate what they have now, what makes you think they could operate more lines?
$10 million will get you about 100 feet on the metro.
Again, we are all in favor of having a metro system that services every single street corner in the city and suburbs. But how much will it cost and who will pay for it?
I've asked this question many times, and everyone totally refuses to address it. So: How much more are you willing to pay in taxes every year to support your vision?
That's a great question. I could imagine the cost of a line running to the airport costing around 500 million.
How much more are you willing to pay in taxes every year to support your vision?
If it meant that Buffalo had an effective public transportation system that enabled me to conveniently live car-free, I would be able to save the $4,000 or so that I pay annually in gasoline, insurance, and maintenance expenses (and my car is relatively cheap because I own it outright). If some or all of that went to taxes to support the public transit system, I wouldn't be any worse off than I am now.
But of course, it's not just the public transportation system that determines whether one can live without a car. It's also the way businesses and jobs are located. All of the day-to-day necessities of life have to be located in places where one can easily access them by walking, bicycling, or transit. Unfortunately, that's not yet the case in Buffalo, and just improving the transit system won't make it so.
Have fun lugging home 200 dollars in groceries while biking/walking/taking the train. I'll give a honk as I drive past you laughing all the way back to the suburbs, "HA HA HA HA, what a loser, back to my McMansion, LOLOLOL!!!!"
I don't think it would be 25 billion...
Does anyone in Buffalo really have a hard time getting around? Buffalo has little or no traffic and parking is cheap and easy.
Furthermore, does a train really do anything a bus doesn't do?
Take a look at this article listing the negative effects that light rail can have on a city.
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/light-rail-doesnt-work
I drive or walk almost everywhere I go in Buffalo. Parking is everywhere, traffic is almost non-existent, and like most people I'd rather choose when I come and go.
As long as gas prices and supplies stay steady for the next few decades or centuries... yeah, we'll be fine. God knows that Erie Canal thing was good enough for 1825, and damned if we never needed anything better than that in the past 190 years.
Our walking, biking, driving and parking amenities haven't changed or improved much since the '60s. Of course, neither have our attitudes. That's what makes us so much better than the rest of the continent which is already half a century ahead of us.
As long as we're fine being a half-empty city that gets looked down upon by even our own citizens... yeah, we're good with what we've already got.
I prefer to use the train, particularly an underground train, when there is a lot of snow, ice, and driving wind. And that's a fairly good percentage of the year in Buffalo.
I find its not about having to get around. It would be the money I save on gas, insurance, maintenance, registration, general wear and tear etc.
The City, County, State, & NFTA could probably save money on gas, drivers, retiring vehicles, road infrastructure by redesigning buses to shuttle people to a belt way type set up.
I currently live outside of Buffalo for reasons other than my own and work within Buffalo; The NFTA already has buses or a bus that run from my area to the City. Yes, I could take the bus but to me that is not anymore efficient than driving myself and perhaps less efficient. I also have had my share of frustrations with bus services in the past that I am quite leary.
That being said a train with a few stops along the way would be something I would consider. It would also be something I would consider taking to my parents who live across county from me, or probably going into the city on a more regular basis or even going to Niagara Falls.
what a train does is enjoy a dedicated right of way. until we have cars breaking down in its path on main street, of course. why we decided it was a good idea to handicap the many on metro rail for the sake of the few in private automobiles is beyond me.
buses can travel only at the speed of ambient traffic, making them vulnerable to every possible delay that you experience in your car.
plus, when you're riding the fare portion of metro rail, you can wait for your train out of the elements.
The CATO institute is a Libertarian think tank that does not believe in govt involvement in anything. So public anything (including transit) is anathema to their philosophy. However, I can guarantee you most of them get to work using the DC subway system. FYI , a few months ago the KOCH brothers, who are one of their biggest contributors, tried to take over the think tank. The staff threatened a mass resignation because they rightfully felt it would politicize their organization.
If a downtown station is what everyone wants then I say to leverage our history and reconstruct either the LeHigh Station (which was very beautiful) or reconstruct the DL&W Passenger Concourse.
I think that the city needs to stand with a firm commitment to extend the Light Rail to the Larkin District, Broadway Fillmore and Central Terminal. I say this because it would require the suburbs to get the Light Rail to the Galleria and the Airport. However, there are big gains to be had when happens.
Same with connecting Light Rail to UB Amherst.
But instead of Light Rail to South Buffalo or Niagara Falls...I think a higher priority would be using the Beltway to connect Light Rail to Buffalo State and the return segment paralleling Niagara Street.
Does Buffalo have the population to sustain it?
Can Buffalo afford it?
Is Buffalo really better off for not having built a new convention & conference center?
Is Buffalo really better off because we have so little Class A office space readily available?
A bigger question is can Buffalo afford a parochial and myopic attitude refusing to do it?
We have all seen how many businesses we have lost, have not chosen Buffalo because of the burocratic and parochial process attracting them here.
I still say Buffalo suffers from its own tendency toward Appalachian backwardness from the leaders of our institutions though we have the legacy of a major urban area and contributor to our nations fortunes.
The geographic northern boundaries of Appalachia are at roughly Mayville. (Not an attempt at being a smart ass)
I was being a smart ass. No offense to Appalachia intended. I was just using it as metaphor for how we cant get:
-Buffalo State to talk with UB or Canisius
-public sector competent leadership and execution
-private sector participation unless there is a taxpayer handout for them
It was the public that demanded rewatered canals. It wasnt the public or private sector leadership.
I have serious question? Why does everyone want to extend the light rail to UB North? UB has buses that take students to south where they can catch the Rail, and there is no way north can support the parking for people who would want to park there and ride downtown. Maybe I am missing something but I just don't understand
With a connection between the two (soon to be three campuses) you would have a guaranteed baseline of riders using Metro on top of how many other daily commuters such a line would attract. Instead of continuing to build out on the acres of developable land encompassed within North Campus, having something like a Metro connection might encourage campus planners to build up. Build a few parking garages on any of the number of surface lots and you begin to see some real density. Maybe with enough of them, the University could return some of the other surface lots into the passive greenspaces they were originally envisioned as.
So instead of a free bus shuttle between campuses, students would have to pay for the priviledge of rail? How does that help students? And if the students get to ride free, then they should NOT be considered part of the baseline ridership, since they won't generate any revenue.
Rand503 I just graduated from UB. I recall a "transportation fee" buried somewhere on my tuition bill. So, instead of that fee going towards a duplicative bus service, it would help support the rail extension. Sounds like a much better use of my loan money to me!
UB would still have to run a late bus though...students will more then likely pay a higher transportation fee
It would save UB money in the long run, and they would wipe their hands clean of having to run their own transportation department(though I imagine they would still run late and early busses when the metro rail is inactive).
Also you are correct. UB North is already strapped for parking. But the park and ride that is planned to be north of UB where there are a bunch of Town of Amherst municipal offices and a shit ton of often empty parking spaces. Also between north and south campuses there is at least on major abandoned plaza that could be utilized for a park and ride.
Also, by extending the rail elsewhere, we might see students and faculty traveling to UB North by rail instead of car, alleviating parking there.
Hey, thanks for both of your replies! I just assumed that it was going to be built directly into the campus and not north of it. Would the last station still be at UB or would there be another station? I hate to burden you with questions. Is there a written plan somewhere that I could read?
It is starting to make more sense to me but I'm still not sold on the idea. UB would still need their buses because they would run late. So it wouldnt save that cost. Add to that a parking ramp that might have to be built and I am seeing my tuition bill go up! I'm not saying its a bad idea, I'm just not sure it's the correct use of resources at this time.
Ask a UB student how much fun it is waiting for a late, overcrowded bus in January.
I am a UB student and the metro rail wouldn't run late enough...
You're assuming that an expanded Metro Rail would have the exact same hours as the current system...
So they're gonna spend millions of dollars to put in the rail, spend more money to operate it later and all for drunk UB kids who already have a working bus system?
Well they could keep a few buses, and only run them after 1am (7pm on Sundays), if they do not expand the hours.
Also it was only recently that UB had 24 hour bus service between campuses.
Also to answer you other question, the original plan was suppose to be extended to UB North. Phase two would put the line past UB north to a station called "Audubon," and "Amherst Governmental Center"
Phase two also included a line going all the way to North Tonawanda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Metro_Rail
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Regional_Transit_Corporation
Thanks to everyone for commenting, and I am enjoying the discussion/debate. First, to clarify, I am not suggesting commuter/regional rail at the expense of Metro Rail extensions – which I believe to be worthwhile – but as a compliment, and something that can be done lighter, cheaper and quicker.
Polonia: I reference Jamestown & Salamanca simply because there are existing rail corridors in those directions. Also, as I mentioned in the article, I'm not so much suggesting we need traditional commuter rail in the 9-to-5, 5:15 businessman train (Buffalo has almost no traffic congestion problems), but rather a tool to connect communities like the Twin Cities, Hamburg, Ellicotville, etc to Buffalo that support existing attractions (ski resorts, Ralph Wilson Stadium, the airport, etc) that can be done quickly and cheaply. This also takes into account Reubens' comment about the lack of congestion in the region. I would mention, though, that CATO is uniformly anti-rail and is supported by contributions from oil companies who have no interest in anyone every traveling in anything but fossil-fuel powered vehicles. Their bias is obvious.
JimB & Millertime486: you're right, JimB – we haven't yet heard the results of the NFTA's study on the completion of Metro Rail to the North Campus. Over the past year, both NFTA and UB officials have sounded optimistic about this moving forward at some point. While bus service between the campuses currently exists, it doesn't capture anywhere near the value of our collective investment in such a university presence, nor would it as so effectively link the two campuses with the Medical Campus. That extension would also include other stops that would serve the larger Northtowns community as well.
DeanerPPX: thanks your your well-reasoned support of transit as a community asset more than just ridership numbers and congestion concerns, and the opportunities in transit-oriented development.
Paulsobo: While the Leighigh and D,L&W stations were impressive, they were sub-end facilities that didn't allow through operation of trains between downtown Buffalo and Niagara Falls. But I do agree a proper, architecturally significant station is needed downtown, but will be very challenging with the monstrosity of the I-190 lumbering overhead.
Keep the discussion going!
--Rich
Commuter rail in Buffalo is not going to work. Sorry.
There simply is not enough demand for commuters to get downtown from the outer areas and traffic is not bad enough to encourage people to park and ride.
What would work is connecting Buffalo to Buffalo. A line up Elmwood from Buffalo State / ABK to Downtown.
Longgone: I actually spent a good portion of the article explaining why I'm not talking about strictly downtown-bound commuters in suits and briefcases trying to avoid congestion, but rather a way to connect Buffalo and Niagara Falls as regional destinations. Canalside to the Niagara Gorge in just under an hour. A North Buffalo station could connect with a smartly-designed shuttle to the Martin House, Albright-Knox, Pyschiatric Center, etc. Easy access to Sabres games/events for northtowns residents. Again, much more than just taking people to and from work.
Rail transit on the Elmwood corridor would be nice because of the density, but would need to be underground due to the street's narrow width, balloning costs. A surface level streetcar would fit the Elmwood strip ethos, but would be too disruptive to businesses during construction. Too bad they ripped out the lines in the 50s.
Until Niagara Falls becomes something of value...there is no need to connect it by mass transit. The US side of the Falls does not compare to the Canadian side is every level.
For people with passports, they are going to want to cross the border. For those without, they are going to spend just a few hours to experience sub-par experience on the US side wishing they had a passport to cross the border.
It's a situation of what comes first - the chicken or the egg. Until Niagara Falls can become a destination, there is no need to connect it. In all of the examples you provide, there are connections to things with much more value and need.
I live in San Diego and ride the coaster all of the time. The reason it works is there is a tech campus, mostly for Qualcomm and UCSD, smack dab in the middle. Combined these two employers have 30,000 folks. Show me that demand and it makes sense.
Are the Falls not a destination in themselves? I can never quite understand comparison between the Canadian and American side. Let's NOT look to Clifton Hill as a example to follow. If you want talk about eyesore look no further than the hypercommercialization of Niagara Falls, Ontario. With the natural beauty of the Falls to capitalize on, why would you build cheap, non-contextual tourist traps like a wax museum, haunted houses, and night clubs? Thanks, but no thanks. The American side is headed in the right direction with things like an upgraded park and trail system, a culinary institute in the former Rainbow Mall, and (hopefully) a new mixed-use urban scaled hotel downtown.
That is the ticket. Less places where people can spend their money like 'tourist traps' and night clubs and more nature trails. The arrogance of saying no thanks to success is comical coming from people in WNY.
The fact that you're touting a cooking school in a long dead mall shows just how much perspective you have.
For someone advocating against the value of commuter rail, I think you're the last person that should be questioning perspective ;)
I am a huge fan of commuter rail....when it connects people to places.
I mock people who lack the perspective of other places and are unable to see the deficiencies of their backyard,
8 million people from outside of North America visit Niagara Falls, NY every year. Imagine if there was an intuitive way to get them to come to Buffalo. Or get them from hotels in Buffalo to Niagara Falls.
8 million people. Buffalo-Niagara ranks 20th in the country for foreign tourists.
If even 1/8th of those people visit and spend money in Buffalo, the rail would be more than worth it.
Unless the hotels are cheaper in Buffalo, there is no reason why a tourist for the Falls wouldn't stay at a hotel in the Falls. And for the hotels in Buffalo to be competitive, they would have to be significantly cheaper even with the transportation costs in order to offset the inconvenience.
The only way this would be beneficial is if tourists can be convinced to visit Buffalo as part of a package along withe the Falls. I think that's doable. And I think that a rail line between the Falls and Buffalo could -- in time -- be quite popular with tourists.
However, it's tough. I know lots of people who go to the Falls, and they come from all ove rthe world. They want to see a natural wonder. That's why they only stay one day. Convincing them to visit Buffalo is possible, but I doubt most of them are interested. I know tons of international people and they want to visit New York, Vegas, and perhaps LA. If they want to visit a natural wonder, it is Grand Canyon or the Falls. FEw even want to visit Washington, and I think Washington is a big draw regardless.
Buffalo to many of these tourists isn't any more interesting to them than Cleveland, or Dallas or Boise.
OTOH, there is another group of tourists that would might be interested, and those are the more sophisticated tourist. By marketing Buffalo as a major architectural, cultural and historic center, we can capture some of those, and they would be interested in a package tour.
But it would be still much cheaper just to have luxury buses shuttle people to downtown cites.
In this entire debate, I note that not one person has contested that fact.
First off, if every one of those 8M people were a possible use case for the transit, you're looking at just 22k riders a day. But they are not all possible riders.
Subtract the number of tourists who drive to the falls.
Subtract the number of locals or tourists with locals.
Using number of people who go to the falls without removing obvious non-use cases shows how little perspective and thought people have on the subject. Just looking at the number of hotel rooms in Niagara Falls give a good insight as to how many of those 8M are driving away vs. staying in the city and needing to go somewhere else.
My suggestion is to go play sim city where your perception of reality will not matter.
All the people that cry when someone says expanded rail won't work are the people that wish Buffalo was a Chicago or New York, and are fortunately few in numbers. WNY has a I deserve to drive my car and have a parking space within 50 feet mentality.
Nope that 8 million are tourists from outside North America.
You just need to figure out how many of them are on bus tours, or rented a car.
You are correct that both the DL&W and the LeHigh were not through facilities and that the Central Terminal is far superior. I was speaking of those stations only in so far as satisfying the need for a downtown station and architectural / preservation.
Reactivating the Central Terminal is both a higher priority in location and preservation than a downtown station.
I would go a step further and move the downtown Bus Station to the Central Terminal and expand their large parking facility into a parknride for the Larkin District and downtown.
Then take the Bus Terminal and add that land to either the Downtown Library for a Medical Library (badly needed) to support ECC/UB or add it outright to ECC Campus.
Commuter Rail is a secondary priority. The issue is 50+ years of sprawl and highways. Downtowns were once dense and commuter rail ran from center city to center city. Our downtown still has a way to go before it offers more than the suburbs and small town conveniences.
OH and reactivating the BELTWAY for Light Rail leaving the Central Terminal would connect the American Axle Plant on Delevan, ECMC, the Ford/Trico/Martin House Complex Plant on Main and Jewitt, Delware Park & Culturals, Buffalo State, D'Youville and reconnect with the Light Rail in the Canal District. That's a good deal! Everything we want!
We can create a major historic district between Niagara and Main Street for old Buffalo and new Buffalo East of Main.
A metro rail expansion bookended between the outer harbor which screams TOD and downtown Niagara Falls should have been planned years ago. I have always thought that given the many tourists in Niagara Falls the chance to catch an easy light rail line to Buffalo would promote regional tourism and longer stays in the area. Walk out of hotel and just walk onto rail line for a day in Buffalo or a day in the falls. There should be visitor centers at the Buffalo and Niagara Falls hub stops. It just offers the tourist population ease of transport rather than having to deal with unfamiliar roads and rental cars, etc. Throw in the Buffalo airport line and you add another dimension of tourist access to Niagara Falls via Buffalo as well.
OK.
So a tourist can walk from their hotel to the train and take it to the Falls. They leave at 9am and get to the Falls at 9:45.
Besides taking a couple of pictures and doing the boat...what else do they do?
They are going to have to return to their hotels eventually. Buffalo already has a vibrant night life.
I actually live near a vacant rail line in Hamburg and it goes right into the village. That said, there are vacant rail lines all throughout WNY and even the city that would be able to support LRT. I did research on the CRT group and they seem to have a convent plan but the trains on Main Street are so slow I don't even know if they can run effectively on an expanded rail system. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Paulsobo: I do think refocusing attention at Central Terminal is a great idea, but a cultural/entertainment destination has to exist there first or bus and train riders will be upset deboarding at a location not close to downtown. This is the same problem the NYC had with the facility.
As far as the Belt Line goes, that is the opposite of the Niagara Branch in terms of freight traffic: it is extensively used by CSX for movements across the International Railway Bridge to their lines east and south. But the former Erie rights-of-way owned by the NFTA through North Buffalo and the East side (that extend from Central Terminal to LaSalle and the Town of Tonawanda) would make a good light-rail beltline for Metro Rail.
Also, how do downtowns return to their former stature without convenient ways to reach them?
Longgone: your lack of vision is pretty astounding. Its not like its one couple of visitor, but hundreds. And, I don't know if you've been to the Falls on a busy day, but it's a full day experience with the various attractions. Crowds bring more crowds to support restaurants, bars, theatres, etc. This works in reverse for visitors who came primarily for the Falls and could now hop down to Buffalo to visit Canalside, the Elmwood/Delaware Park museum/architecture district or catch a Sabres game.
Buffaboy: I agree that the downtown stretch of Main Street does slow down the system. The same is true on similar systems in Baltimore, Dallas, Denver, Portland, San Diego and Salt Lake City. It should have been built underground, but that decision is long past made. Future extensions would largely use those rail lines to operate at speeds similar to the current underground portion. People don't mind as much going slower through the heart of the city.
This is a pipe dream. Until Buffalo gets more traffic and is more expensive to park downtown there is no way this would ever happen. It is just too easy to get around by car. You leave when you want.
The only things I see that could possibly happen would be an extension of metro rail south (toward a new stadium) or east to Larkin.
Beyond all of that a Bus/Train/Metro/Car Rental near or around canalside is a must. That should be a number 1 priority
Its not just about workers though. Its about giving people a convenient way to access the cultural assets of the city.
We have rail lines in the city that are no longer used, correct? Let's use them for the line and finally put them back to work!
You have to buy them first, the city/town/municipalities do not own the tracks so it's not as easy at 1,2,3.
The unexplored opportunity is Great Lakes Cruise Ships docking in Buffalo with the choice of disembarking for downtown Buffalo or a Light Rail trip to Niagara Falls (since Cruise Ships cant traverse to Niagara Falls from either Lake Erie or Lake Ontario.
As far as downtown not being expensive enough, I disagree.
I take the free parking at a Light Rail station, then take the Light Rail everytime I go downtown. Why? Its cheaper than a parking garage and I never have to worry about a parking or traffic ticket, a car repair from a pothole, a traffic accident etc, traffic detours for a street repair or traffic in general. Id rather walk to a Light Rail Station than walk to a parking garage.
DXMontaignes, I checked and a Light Rail track could easily be added beside the freight track for a short section of the Beltway and problem solved. Connecting Buffalo State and UB is extremely important in how the application of Engineering and technology (Buffalo State) complements Engineering / Design / Research. This is huge missing piece where the 2 largest local colleges are not working together.
Link culturals with downtown and link suburban retail at Galleria with downtown and you have a quality of life on par with every other midsize-major city in the nation.
I think the price of not having a fully functional low cost transportation system based on Light Rail is costing Buffalo more in achieving our growth potential.
Right now, nothing in Buffalo complements and works with each other. Anothe rexample...the Teddy Roosevelt Museum doesnt work with BECHS and neither work with the Library.
The fact that nothing we have here in Buffalo works together...everything is separate and stand alone is a huge hindrance.
I dreamed of this once. I pictured Royal Caribbean coming through the Welland Canal and docking in the Outer Harbor. Actually I've been on 6 cruises and I can tell you there is a 1% chance of animator cruise industry coming to this area.
I have long dreamed of a real rail system in WNY. A lot of people bring up some good points. I think some stops somewhere around Elmwood, Larkinville, Hertel/North Buffalo, Canalside, UB North, NF, and the airport would have a lot of positive impact.
And I have to kind of disagree about parking not sucking downtown. At night, even for dinner at say Pearl Street, I always have a miserable time finding a parking spot. I know I would rather take a direct route for $2.50 than have to drive around in circles or pat $6 for a parking spot.
I think WNY has a lot of the existing parts necessary, and I think there would be a lot more use than people think. I would love to use the existing rail line -- only that it is never near where I am/need to go.
That's probably because you don't know the area. Pearl St has a parking lot right behind it. And if you cant park there you can park one block closer to the harbor on the street for free.
Perhaps. The last time I went was the day of the Young the Giant concert, though, AND it was raining so I didn't want to park too far, and most spots were already taken.
I'll agree with that. Any Thursday the concert's going on parking is pretty near impossible to find.
Well written, and I completely concur with many of the author's conclusions.
I would offer a few notes:
- Im not sure that conventional commuter rail (locomotive and coaches) is the most appropriate choice for the application.
This route had been most recently served by the New York Central with Budd built Rail Diesel Cars (RDC). Generically called DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit), these self propelled vehicles contain both passenger compartments and crew controls. As such, capacity was easy to add. Since each vehicle pulled its own weight (some could also pull another coach), train length was not limited to the capacity of one very expensive locomotive. Conversely, one very expensive locomotive was not required to pull a very short train.
Used rebuilt RDCs can be purchased quite affordably, and have the added advantage of meeting the FRA's crash worthiness guidelines for passenger operations in mixed traffic areas.
Additionally, DMUs require a much lower initial investment than light rail.
- Currently, Amtrak operates 3 stations in western NY. All of which would likely require the addition of a second passenger platform to make commuter rail operationally feasible.
- Just a note, but the last timetable I could find put the downtown to downtown travel times in the 45 minutes to an hour range, depending on the particular train.
Hurray! Great idea! Just a few questions:
1. How much will this cost?
2. Who will pay for it?
3. Who is responsible for yearly maintanence and upkeep?
4. How much will the yearly upkeep costs be?
5. Where is all this money going to come from?
6. Will residents of Parkside really like a metro stop nearby?
I hate to say it because I do think a full rail network would be a cool thing to have. However, it will never happen until society undergoes a huge change. There really is no reason to have a commuter rail system in Buffalo. There is really no congestion, parking is plentiful, and gas is cheap. Until those factors change, it is still easier to drive where you want to go.
What is is that would make someone who lives in Hamburg or Orchard Park or Amherst want to make a trek to a station to wait for a train to take them to the city, where they will arrive and then be without a car? That would be fine if their destination were on either the rail line or a connecting bus line, or if they want to go somewhere during normal travel hours. But if not, that is a huge disincentive to use it. If there is no comeplling reason to use it, it will never work. There has to be some way to attract people to this away from their cars. I think that is something to seriously consider before adding something that can downright expensive to an already strained public budget. I think if it is to be done, the most logical destination (not sure about how practical it would be to do it) would be extending the Metrorail to North Campus. There is a large number of students up there who might be likely to benefit from connecting the campuses and downtown. Give the students access to the rail line and continue to assess the transportation fee on the tuition bill in exchange. Let UB work out a deal with the NFTA.
As for the Niagara Falls connection, perhaps it will work. It's hard to say why a train would be necessary to connect NF to Buffalo and the rest of the region though. What advantages does a train have that a bus doesn't? I know this article is making the point that this could be done cheaply using an existing underutilized right of way and some old equipment, but it will likely still be expensive to run and maintain, and I think we would need some hard evidence that there is a purpose for it before it can be said it should be done.
Perhaps there will be some day be a need for the system to be expanded, but that time is not now. We should focus on things that can reasonably be done, fill a valid need, and are not financially irresponsible before embarking on a potentially financially reckless project like this
Good question -
"It's hard to say why a train would be necessary to connect NF to Buffalo and the rest of the region though. What advantages does a train have that a bus doesn't? "
According to the NFTA web site, http://metro.nfta.com/Routes/ttpdf/60.pdf
it's about 50 minutes or 1 hour (depending on which part of NF) on the express route using the I-190 between NF and downtown Buffalo. That operates only Mon-Fri, total 5 buses per day all around commuting hours. But if it's decided there's really more need, expanding that with a few more buses might result in much better cost effective bang for the buck than a rail scheme.
The 210 route they used to have between the BNIA airport and NF was one of the few they discontinued earlier this year despite the fare hike, so presumably that wasn't attracting enough riders.
http://www.buffalonews.com/city/communities/niagara-county/article798655.ece
I think society is starting to change. And maybe is only the beginning. In my opinion there are more and more young people who connecting with thoughts, ideas, and lifestyles that have not been seen since perhaps our grandparents.
Part of it is economic. Owning a car, a home, and all the costs that go along with it are more difficult based on the opportunities within a 'service' economy. Middle Class living seems to be more and more difficult to hold onto. Examples are: as the housing stock ages and instead of slapping a 2nd or 3rd roof on the place, it now requires a full tear off because a roof can only hold so much, and fuel an insurance costs rise for cars while wages are generally pretty stagnant.
Part of it is the harvesting of the environmental movements that started gaining traction 20 years ago which is resulting in the sustainability push.
We can keep sitting here and bemoaning how small city we are while our youth leave for other big 'real' cities or we can start looking at developing alternatives and acting bigger than we are.
The entire system does not have to be built at once but in pieces. Start with the most complete line or highest possible return/reward: Niagara Falls to Exchange Street to Walden (you could run a shuttle/buses to the airport/Galleria or deliver Amtrak customers or let the market do that - sell the rights). If that is profitable it can then subsidize extensions or other non profitable areas. Factor in the buses, fuel and drivers (current and pension) that may be reduced as a cost savings and perhaps a redesign of the entire bus network that now can work to fill in the gaps and slowly build out the network. Additional funds may be found once NFTA gets out of the harbor business.
There is a way to make it work for commuters as well as tourists. You can have seasonal schedules especially for the NFs run. And as far as noise of the trains, Amtrak and freight trains currently run through North Buffalo at all hours currently. An additional train or two isn't going to make a difference.
gas at $5-$10 will make rail look reeeeeeally good.
I doubt it. The cost of building and maintaining such a line will require enormous public subsidies. Gas would have to be around $100 a gallon before it becomes cost effective.
The feasibility studies are there
1. Downtown-larkin-broadwaymkt-central terminal-galleria-airport is viable
2.downtown-life sciences campus-canisius-ub south camps-ub Amherst is viable
South buffalo isn't viable
Niagara falls and tonawanda arent viable (Kenmore and tonawanda and north tonawanda are aging and declining in population)
Beltway hasn't been studied but downtown to central terminal is the beltway....it wouldn't take much to reactivate from central terminal to buffalo state.
Buffalo needs a commitment for 1 station every 5 years...we should be able to get that
Everything is feasible. That isn't the problem. The question is cost vs. benefits.
The costs for any of these lines will easily run over a billion dollars. I can see how that will promote a billion dollars in revenue to pay it back in our lifetimes.
OTOH, I can certainly see how billion dollars would be better spent on the community to develop the economy.
I agree with the other commentatars -- this is just a pipedream. When someone comes up with a detailed analysis of what these lines will cost and who will pay for them, then you might have something to talk about. Until then, this is just a nice exercise in 'what if'.
Reminds me of one of my studio projects:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-lXh4aEEWb2wTpihOVMdvNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/W2Rm0eTMdPypAz5yhtBeFNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
Utilizing the existing railroads is an easy \ cheap way to expand rail service to the region. With Canada adding more and more commuter runs from the Falls to Toronto it only makes sense to try and capitalize on those investments.
Pretty good, it just doesn't cover everything. But it's good.
We have the infrastructure in place for the commuter rail system. At the turn of the last century, we had a huge commuter system, complete with not just New York Central's Belt Line but Erie Lackawanna also had a Belt Line. As well, various lines of the IRC (International Railway Corporation)going to different towns, villages, etc;
The Niagara Branch, which CSX owns and only Amtrak utilizes for Maple Leaf service (which is roughly 6 trains a day), would be perfect. This commuter line could have far reaching effects, as the terminus of the Niagara Branch (The Whirlpool Bridge) has straight across on the Canadian side Niagara Falls VIA Rail station. Interesting note is in the summer months, GO (Government of Ontario) commuter trains make the trip down to Niagara from Hamilton/Toronto. The possible economic effects of turning the old Leigh Valley railyard in Niagara Falls into a park and ride.
We could have commuter trains out to the Village of Lancaster along the Norfolk Southern Mainline as they used to... re utilize the old IRC/Erie Lackawanna ROW through the Tonawandas...I could go on.
Communting to where? What percentage of Lancaster residents actually live close to a proposed train station, and work near another proposed train station? I'll bet it's quite few.
One of our problems is because of sprawl, we have Amherst holding much of the businesses that region holds. That means there are plenty of commuters going in and out of Amherst. Do any of these proposed lines include stops throughout that town?
I can assure you that Amherst residents will oppose any sort of rail service through there town if it brings commuters in to Amherst.
There simply isn't enough people going from suburbs to downtown to justify the expense. Present some real numbers of actual potential riders derived from objective surveys, and we'll ahve something to talk about. Until then, this is all just wishful thinking.
Let Amherst be Amherst.
1) Light Rail will eventually go to UB Amherst and to the neighboring audubon industrial park so there is one hole.
2) There are 70 posts, a huge number of supporters for Light Rail extension
3) Downtown and the inner city neighborhoods were built in the 1800s or prior to 1929. They are old and have lost alot of their population, wealth, youth and industry.
Downtown has to do things for its own viability. Downtown is all about a centralized, high density, mixed use area. Sprawl is the antithesis of this and sprawl kills downtown.
Detroit's downtown stinks and it has a national and global negative stereotype...you honestly think the suburbs arent dragged down by a failed city!
Great. I agree with you. But that's the point -- there is very little ridership to support such rail like that.
if they could ever come up with a strategy to connect a rail system to Niagara falls, it would increase the quality of life dramatically. Both economies seem to be co dependent. If the rail system could connect... cobblestone, inner and outer harbor, first Niagara center, metro rail system,theater district, elmwood ave art district,buffalo state, ub north, fantasy island,outlet mall, niagara falls.
the stations could be accountable for those anti business months with fire places.
Connecting all those points is self-defeating. To connect them all the way between NF and Buffalo would require a metro trip of well over an hour, possibly longer. In addition, to travel between NF and Buffalo won't be cheap -- at least 10 to 15 dollars each way, per person. Why would anyone want to waste all their time and money when they can drive it cheaper and faster?
Unless you can show a big demand of people moving from fantasy island and UB north, or from the theater district to buff state, or between NF and elmwood, there really isn't any good reason for such a line. Of course, if you can show there is such pent demand that our road system between all these points is overtaxed, then you might have a point.
Again -- what is the cost? Who will pay for it? Who will pay for ongoing maintenence and repairs?
I guess as longs as Some One Else is Paying For It All, then it's a great idea. But if you think our community can be taxed higher to pay for it, you'll have to convince a lot of people that it's worth it.
Rail service in Buffalo needs to change...you are either completly against it or you want a flying space railroad zipping throughout the City of Buff. @ all hours of the night. ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN..as stated above we don't have the population (or the mindset) to support service like that. BUT.
That doesn't mean it cannot be an option period..just because we're too stupid to realize that it may make sense in some places versus others.
First off...give up the Central Terminal, Broadway Market, Southtowns and Erie PA extension..forget about any stops between Buffalo and Niagara Falls (How many people would get on in Tonawanda and Grand Island?? Answer..not many. GIVE IT UP.
We need to stop thinking that we alone will be able to support a rail system ourselves..it would be doomed to failure, there simply aren't enough people. Who would pay? Try the millions of people who pass thru this area daily on their way to and from a wonder of the world and one of the largest cities in North America (Toronto folks..Toronto)
Niagara Falls is a draw..Toronto is a mere 1.5 hours away..and believe it or not people DO COME TO VISIT BUFFALO AS WELL!!! The bus service doesn't cut it...its not friendly or easy to use for those that live here..try explaining it to a tourist. I am in the tourism industry and I get this question dozens of times a day..even in the dead of winter.
With our location alone I would say there is enough of a "ridership" pool $$$$$ we could draw from to at least get things started. Some one mentioned cost..a cab to NIAGARA is $125-$140 round trip and we're talking as if $10-$15 a ticket is going to be an issue??
A line to Niagara Falls..connection point to Toronto..a line to wherever the hell a new Bills stadium is going (its coming if they stay here) potentially 2-3 small park and ride rail extensions for our downtown office surburban class and folks wishing to ditch the car for Bills games and Toronto. It needs to not be about getting everyone in Erie County to ditch their car and hop on the space train..getting the people who would pay $$ on it (tourists/out of towners) and getting those (myself included) commuters, suburbanites..etc who would use it on occasion aboard as well.
Lighter..quicker..cheaper..forget about the extensive rail collection..focus on a half dozen lines that offer the highest levels of convenience and profitability. Take it from there.
I think your response is one of the more thought out ones on this topic. The only way this rail line would work would be if it were marketed towards tourists. This will not be for every day commuters in the area, this will be for tourists that either fly into buffalo and then are going to niagara falls or up to toronto or people staying in the falls coming to buffalo to visit or to get back to the airport. To get more use out of the system, there could be special deals for events, offer a discount for when people staying in local hotels buy tickets or some sort of pass for it and lump in a weekend or weekly metro pass too. I'd imagine a lot of tourists staying in the falls would like to come into buffalo but dont want to map out trying to take several busses or spending the money for a cab. This is not meant to necessarily replace people driving or bus service but to supplement it. This will not be a commuter train for people to use on an everyrday basis, we do not have the population to support it at all and definitely not a high enough of people who travel far enough for work to ever need it. I wouldnt' rule out the idea of eventually putting in a stop or two along the way to the falls or having a stop at the bills stadium that runs before and after games only. Between tourists and the event usage this could be pretty succesful if priced right and marketed correclty. The NFTA still needs to work on a metro rail expansion to the airport and ub and this might bring in the money to help. This rail line would definitely need to run to the airport as well as the subway, but let the subway run through the city cutting across the east side and stopping along at galleria and ending at the airport which would act as a connector.
Good points, run one line from the Airport down the 33 into the city. Then extend the existing line to the outer harbor over a bridge connecting the two. That's all we really need.
A lot of this discussion about WHO will use commuter rail is being based on our population and current commuter patterns. If we are being generous, only 200,000 potential riders would have use for the system if 10% utilized it in a region of 2 million. That's 2 million trips if each of them rode the system 10 times per year.
But let's not forget the 22 million people who visit Niagara Falls annually. Probably less than half of them arrive in their own cars, but let's be pessimistic and say that only 25% are foreign visitors who arrive by plane. That is 5.5 million additional riders per year, even if each only uses it ONCE during their stay.
Renting a car in a foreign country is a pain in the ass. Do you think a family of 4 visiting from Japan or the UK is going to rent a car to visit Buffalo or the Finger Lakes if it means being unable to read the road signs or drive on the opposite side of the road?
Rail has an inherent comfort factor for foreign visitors. I can ride the Metro in Mexico City, Paris, or Tokyo without having a clue how to speak the language or consulting anything other than a tourist map. I am likely to extend my stay if I am able to visit surrounding sights such as Tenochtitlan or Bouvais or Yokohama rather than being confined to the central city and its typical tourist haunts.
A commuter rail system would be hard pressed to become feasible if only residents of WNY used it. But usage could EASILY be doubled or tripled if it was built with tourists in mind as well as everyday commuters. Not only would it increase the ease and atrractiveness of NF/NY as a tourist destination, it would also benefit our outlying attractions like wine country, finger lakes, Chautauqua, Buffalo, and Lewiston. A tourist from Berlin or Beijing would never consider visiting such places now. But they would happily spend an extra day here to see them if there was an easy rail connection to assist their visit.
Perhaps, as an infant experiment, this is a system that could be supported by private tour companies and motorcoach services. But what private enterprise has the capital to make such a daring investment? If it was part of a regional infrastructure with federal or state funds, the risk becomes much more manageable and can coincide with other development incentives.
For every ONE person who doubts the viability of regional rail because THEY wouldn't use it, there are probably TWO visiting tourists in a foreign land who would gladly take their place and buy a ticket.
Exactly! This is exactly right on!
These numbers already exist.
Buffalo-Niagara brings in 8 million outside of North America(so no Americans or Canadians in the count) every year, making it the 20th most popular destination in the US.
Ridership in 2008 was 8.6 million.
Seems Central terminal becomes your high speed rail hub and transfer point to the regional light rail system. Its also inline and connected to the Buffalo Niagara airport. With the influx of airport users to Buffalo Niagara I think you add Canadan passengers to high speed rail to transfer to light rail to Buffalo airport for flights. This also gives the Central Terminal an American customs function and fills additional office space in the tower. This is the first stop into the USA off the high speed rail line into Canada. Precisely why I have always felt any future new Peace Bridge ought to have a deck wide enough to also accomodate high speed rail into Canada. Buffalo Niagara airport also brings in tourists destined for Canada and Niagara Falls, putting some of them on the light rail and bringing them through Buffalo to high speed rail or light rail for regional tourism destinations like the falls, Buffalo, etc. All of this light rail connected into Larking district, downwtown, ideally outer harbor via outer harbor bridge to recreation and hope TOD out there and expanding employer base there, and up through Main Street, the collegs and universities, the tonawandas and onto Niagara Falls tourism mecca doorstep.
This commuter rail expansion would work to complement tourist bus companies and cabs, etc. as well who feed off of stations and provide those links to nodes and historic sites, etc. I could even see a small hotel function within the Central Terminal is you think of layovers between high speed rail arrival and airport departures for example if Central terminal becomes the link between high speed rail and the Buffalo airport. And yes, even though the Central Terminal is currently in a less than ideal location and the neighborhood is on hard times I think at the start you essentially create a self contained cruise ship with tremendous amounts of activity within and really bring that building and the grounds back to prosperity. As larkin district expands, etc. the whole dimension of the area can change because you now have this hub of rail to rail, light rail to airport, light rail to Niagara Falls and Buff outer harbor, tourist, business traveler, etc. customs offices, etc. all linked into large downstate populations, special events trains to Buffalo Niagara Toronto all filtering in and out, international tourists, Niagara Falls tourists. It could really tap a very large population if its easy to use and correctly marketed and planned. Such a system wouldnt force people to drive and park on the east side because they would access the light rail system and be brought there without that need.
It will also eliminate surface parking lots over time with the creation of newer, better buildings. Lets remember that Buffalo is an automobile city because that's what it can only be at the moment. The rails downtown can only go 6 miles, but people who use it know it's only really 2 feet in reality. About 80 of us here realize once you put in the rails you put in the people. It's simple calculus.
This does have merit. If I know I can make an essentially risk free profit off a minimally capital and labor intensive piece of land, i.e. the surface lot, why would I bother even attempting to create something of a higher use.
The egg always comes before the chicken, not the other way around my friend. The right demographic of people build the need for services, not the other way around. If you build mansions on the East Side, no ones going to move there, because the people there don't have the means to support it. On the other hand you have an average income in Clarence that's three times higher than the city of buffalo, so guess where the more expensive homes are built....?
Ultimately you need a plan. Everything might not be perfectly lined up right now but I think with some real thought and focus on who your target audience is and not solely focusing on immediate demographics, considering Niagara Falls tourists, Canadian travel to and from the airport, connecting regions via high speed rail, capitalizing on Buffalo area cultural and historic resources and employment centers of interest, etc. all of the sudden you have a large group outside of your traditional local demographic. I guess its all about recognizing where you want to go in order to get there and making appropriate plans rather than being reactionary and perhaps not accomodating the ability for light rail to cross the bridge being planned across the Bufalo River to the outer harbor? Building a Peace Bridge solely for vehicular traffic when perhaps it could and should also accomodate high speed rail deck? Giving the central terminal a vision for potentially very real and practical use?
"accomodating the ability for light rail to cross the bridge being planned across the Bufalo River to the outer harbor?"
Give me one good reason why you wouldn't.
The same reason we wouldn't have re watered the real Commercial slip; Failure of leadership.
The new bridge should allow for the extension of light rail to a Park n Ride from the Southtowns. Perhaps the bridge should only be pedestrian and rail - non vehicular - which once the SkyWay can be removed would either force light rail utilization or an inconvenient route as well as reducing the cost of a new bridge in this immediate local. If you want to walk or take the rail fine- if you want to drive go the long way.
Although this isnt what im about to talk about, I'd like to being some attention back to a well thought out idea written by someone who backed up the argument with some great geocomputation (http://www.buffalorising.com/2012/02/bold-ideas-for-better-transit-humbolt-parkways-and-light-rail.html). Intact rail right-of-ways still exist within the city, including the old "Belt-Line" that runs from the old hydraulics district (read "Larkin" now) all the way up into Central Park and out to Blackrock. If we're talking about buying up some of Amtrak's rolling stock, why not take a page out of their book, and use the existing track from the Belt-line (still used and owned by CSX) to increase the city's public transportation options. No track modification needed.
Me and you can take a trip to Albany on this...I'm joking, but good idea
While we have a big hole where the Aud used to be....
How about using a portion of the AUD site for a shared station- Amtrak and NFTA and perhaps Buffalo Visitors and Buffalo tours desk. (Finding obscure offices on Main Street isn't tourist encouraging). This would at least create a multi-transit destination. The NFTA stop requires redesign to open cars to Main and you already have the hole dug to the underground level that the Amtrak line passes through.
Amtrak already runs 2-3 stops from NF to Buffalo Exchange (13.00) fare one way; So in the interim, this could be used to get some of the approximately 8 million international travelers down here that has been quoted with minimal rail required investment. It just requires marketing and a reason to come down. Cabs/Tours could then line the Upper and Lower Terraces.
The focus then should be extending light Rail to UB North, the Outer Harbor, and a line to the Airport. Use the Central Terminal for High Speed rail, and perhaps convert the Baggage buildings to a Bus Terminal. You could then convert current station into a new convention center and then restore Genesee street back.
The short-term solutions are there. We just need a long-term plan.
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Great article by a very knowledgeable person but all these locations just do not support rail. Jamestown? really? Salamanca? no one wants to go there. Once in a while it would be a nice convenience but for everyday sustainability, it is a fiscal nightmare. Extend the POS we have to Tonawanda and UB North and call it a day. No airport because it is all Canadians and tourists from the falls on motor coaches who do not stop or stay in the city.
There is the Allegheny Casino down there as well as the ski resorts. Plus, it's an incredibly scenic route! Trust me I go down there a lot.