Downtown Market Rate
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Leave a commentI would LOVE to see a Whole Foods in Buffalo finally. The downside is that the prices ARE higher than Wegmans and Tops. But hey, it would still be pretty awesome. I love Whole Foods!
Previous suggestions included the Main Place Mall.
Main place mall needs exterior attraction- ground level glass if and where possible - inviting signage , outdoor market look ...
There is nothing that "Whole Paycheck" has that we can't get cheaper in other local stores.
They are opening a Whole Foods in Detroit, with the help of about $5 million in subsidies to the building's developer.
I think the best idea would be to start a locally owned food CO OP downtown.
Just don't get Feel Rite. that place really sucks.
It's too bad, becuase they could be our hometown version of Whole Foods. but they are LOUSY at merchandising and their produce almost always is tired and old.
I'm a Wegmans guy at heart, but I did go to their website and noticed they are moving away from the Big Apple and are considering a Cleveland and Detroit store, two notorious Rust Belt cities. http://wholefoodsmarket.com/content/company/real-estate/stores-in-development/ I just don't want to spend money there when Wegmans offers similar quality food.
You don't go from nothing to Whole Foods. You go from ok grocery store to Whole Foods.
Dash would be great, but it would need to focus to go stuff. There is a lot of money to be made by people leaving work and grabbing a rotisserie chicken or the like.
A little off topic, but a Target (w/parking garage) by Canalside would be great. It is has groceries (within biking distance to downtown) and would be another destination location for Canadians.
Yes, I agree that Dashs operates smaller stores and includes prepared meals that could be a fit without relying on Tops or Wegmans to try something new. Forget TJs and Whole Food dreams mentioned by others.
However, I think Target at Canalside is not a good idea. First, having acquired 189 former Zeller's stores, Target is getting ready to launch in Canada. Yes, prices may be lower here due to sales taxes, but I wouldn't sacrifice prime land on that bet. Second, with stores both locally and nationally, most Americans aren't going to purchase items from a Target store that they can obtain from the same store closer to home.
How many people walk for groceries in Elmwood Village, Delaware District? Why is a walkable grocery store downtown such a hot topic on here? Downtown is far far from being a dense urban walking city as most american cities except maybe 6 cities.
Whole Foods?
That's putting the horse before the IKEA.
Where do I begin????? First, thanks to the author for the positive editorial and I hope and pray that his visions come to fruition!!! But let's look at the facts first. With the great news of traffic returning to Main street, we have to remember that we will have to endure months of construction which can actually hamper a new business as people will avoid the area. So we have a period of darkness before the dawn. Even with the amount of residential units rented already downtown, it is still a veritable ghost town nights and weekends. Just today, while walking on Main, I was the only one who seemed to have my wits and wasn't drinking, selling drugs or causing a loud rucus on the streets. And again, zero police presence nights and weekends. The market dilemna...As a resident who lives downtown and has a car (gasp) and drives to work (suburbs), I shop at Tops on Elmwood and Wegmans on Amherst as I bet a lot of my downtown neighbors do. Either store opening a branch downtown would only result in a shuffling of their customer base, not increase it. However, it a Dash's or Budwey's opened here, I think they would increase their customer base as a majority of us cityfolk who shop at Tops and Wegmans already would service them for convenience. Parking....Face it, Buffalo is a driving city....There's no shame or harm in a market downtown having a parking lot. I'm sure other cities do.
Another reason why cars on Main street will help with the homeless people issue. There's not enough "eyes on the street" on Main partly because we cut off a major source of those "eyes" in the form of driving consequently lacking a presence of non-intoxicated/non-homeless crowds. There's a reason the most vibrant parts of the city are vibrant and bustling. That reason is in part because of easy accessibility and 24/7 presence.
As for the grocery market downtown I think it's ridiculous that the grocer's haven't recognized the need yet. Even worse, we have a Top's on Niagara just a few blocks from City Hall but the place is deplorable, filthy, lacks quality product and service. Imagine if they changed their business model to cater to the downtown loft dwellers AS WELL AS the lower income residents nearby. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Wegman's on Amherst Street is a good example of how two income/demographic levels can co-exist in a clean quality environment.
Another issue with the panhandlers/homeless people that affects Main street and surrounding neighborhoods are the gas stations, bodega's, corner stores, etc. that sell single 22oz cans/40's of beer. I'd personally like to see a stop to this as it just seems to perpetuate the problem. I'm not saying no beer at all per se, but not small quantity cheap beer. It's not hard to wrangle a $1.50 for a forty oz but it is harder to get $15 for a 12 pack.
That's another reason I think tipping the scales with a higher-end quality market will help the overall quality of life for those of us investing our money to make downtown a better place.
Haha. This has got to be one of the most ridiculous comments I've seen on this site in a while. I mean, what you're saying is not entirely false, but sheesh!
What's ridiculous about it?
Well, we'll start with your assessment of the Niagara Street Tops. Deplorable? Maybe sections of Niagara Steet itself fit that bill, but I'd argue that by comparison Tops is shining star. Do you actually frequent the store? I'm more of a Wegmans guy, myself, but I've gotta say -- that Tops is not all that bad; I stop by on occasion and haven't struggled one bit with service. Nor would I dare say it is "filthy" or "deplorable." It sounds to me like you are making your case strictly based on the predominantly lower-income customer's the store serves; in which case, you are a raging bigot.
I do frequent that Top's as I live three blocks away but only for something quick like eggs or bread. I've seen both living and dead rats in the parking lot right near the entrance on many occasions. The vestibule smells overwhelmingly of stale beer and the garbage cans are constantly spilling over in that area and outside. The fast check out lane is a joke as it almost always takes 10 mins to buy one or two items. The products they carry don't even come close to Wegmans or even other Top's locations. As for the clientele, if I were a bigot I think living where I do would probably not work out too well for me considering the wide range of income, race, sexual orientation, religious affiliations, etc. I'm judging Top's solely on their appearance and lack of ammenities that rival stores seem to have the upper hand on. If anyone's bigoted it's Tops for assuming that their customers do not want or deserve a better shopping experience just because most of them may be of lower income.
News flash: there are rats all over the city; unless you see one scampering through the produce section, relax. More from the newsroom: it smells like stale beer in the Amherst Street Wegmans entrance, too; maybe your beef is with recycling? And as for your decision to live where you do: congratulations; you are in need of a diversity pat-on-the-back -- maybe even the Nobel Peace Prize.
Wow buddy relax. I stated observations as a matter of fact as I have seen. I have never seen a rat in the Wegmans parking lot and I go there far more than Tops. (the rats I've seen were directly outside the door, not just in the middle of the parking lot leading me to believe they get inside)
Wegmans stays on top of their recycling maintenance so it does not smell half as bad as Tops' recycling area and is almost always spotless. I know this because I take my bottles back there every other week.
You asserted that perhaps I am a bigot because I take issue to the cleanliness of where I buy my food when in fact its suspect that you automatically assume its the clientele that bothers me. Perhaps you're the bigot since that was the first conclusion you jumped to?
I however never claimed to be some sort of humanitarian just because I live in a diverse neighborhood but merely pointed out the fact that bigots tend to surround themselves with like-minded people which is clearly not the case for me given my surroundings that I chose and accept without much thought.
As you clearly missed, my gripe is with the store, not the shoppers.
Point taken. So on to the next portion of your initial comment that I found particularly funny:
"Another issue with the panhandlers/homeless people that affects Main street and surrounding neighborhoods are the gas stations, bodega's, corner stores, etc. that sell single 22oz cans/40's of beer. I'd personally like to see a stop to this as it just seems to perpetuate the problem. I'm not saying no beer at all per se, but not small quantity cheap beer. It's not hard to wrangle a $1.50 for a forty oz but it is harder to get $15 for a 12 pack."
You hit up the bodegas often? And to your point about embracing lower-income and downtowners of middle- and upper-class -- wouldn't removing cheaper beer be a slap in the face to those lower-class workers who like to enjoy ONE beer after work?
Yeah I live less than 100' from the Georgia St Deli. Lately I've obsevered lot's of neighborhood guys hanging around drinking all day in our public spaces, using drugs, and leaving their mess behind, including broken bottles and needles, in these spaces, sidewalks, front yards etc. I know people complain about similar behavior on Main street too.
I'm not talking hard working lower income people who want a beer after working all day but rather non-working, semi-homeless people who are also responsible for other criminal activity in our neighborhood. There's much more to this story I'd rather not divulge on BRO but just so I'm clear these are people who many of my neighbors have to call the police on frequently for more serious issues.
I'm not sure the solution but the easy availabilty of this extremely cheap booze is not helping the problem. Perhaps better discretion can be made on who the shop owners sell booze to which is well within their rights if they so choose.
The 2nd floor of the DLW is the perfect spot. why not leverage the light rail rather than another gaping whole in downtown Buffalo for parking
Plus it would provide great revenue which is key for the nfta to extend the current light rail system
Extend light rail to the central terminal and Broadway market then there is access to 2 markets
The future Public Market should fill he void of downtown for groceries
you're absolutely correct. And, I think that's enough to fill a Downtown void until the population of the traditional Ellicott rectangle Downtown surpasses 5,000. In 2010, it was 1700.
Well Rochester is getting a Trader Joe's http://www.13wham.com/news/local/story/Trader-Joe-s-Coming-To-Rochester/wHeu2M8ZSkCHQf4WGK7vyA.cspx
I see no reason why Buffalo could not attract a Whole Foods or Trader Joes downtown. If they don't want to be here, fine. Put a large scale Dash's downtown.
If Rochester is getting a Trader Joes then Buffalo will too. Don't expect them to be downtown though. I expect that they'll be in Amherst and Orchard Park. (Elmwood would be a reach but theoretically possible.) They tend to follow a suburban high income demographic. (Notice that in Rochester they'll be in Pittsford and not the city.) They need a minimum of two stores in a city to be vaible for supply chain logistics.
TJ's has several stores in St. Louis but none downtown; despite a population of 7,000 and rising.
The same holds true for Whole Foods. They had a store planned for Amherst in the Benderson Development that the neighborhood vetoed. Too bad really since it was a nice new urbanistic concept. Their second store was going in OP.
Rochester is a head of the loop though with Trader Joes as they have wine sales in stores in that city. Trader Joes relies on that heavily. Buffalo needs to allow wine sales in stores Trader Joes or not. Be great to get my wine while grocery shopping as you can do in just about any city in this country, except here.
If you basing your expectations that Trader Joe's will sell wine in its stores on what you have seen in other states- don't.
The decision on whether wine can be sold in a grocery store is a state issue, not local. There is an on-going debate about whether it should be allowed in NYS.
Trader Joes is scouting the area for locations and Whole Foods was already to to announce a market here but an Amherst uproar about the Town Center developement killed that one.
Trader Joe's isn't technically coming to Rochester, they're coming to Pittsford, which is about as useful to residents of inner Rochester as a Trader Joe's on Transit Road would be to residents of inner Buffalo.
The ground floor of the Trico building would be a perfect spot for a grocery store.
Goodell and Washington is at the center of all the development in Buffalo...north of the new housing in downtown, just a few blocks east of Allentown, at the terminus of an expressway and center to the medical campus with its thousands of workers, visitors and future students. Visibility is great...its a "daylight factory", the existing parking lot could have a 3 storey parking ramp built on it with a direct connection into the building.
Glad to see the good conversation underway. Before we entice outside interests, such as Tops and Trader Joe's, perhaps there is a local solution: the Lexington Co-op is looking for larger digs - just a thought.
Uhh - Tops IS local - got it's start in Buffalo - and it's headquarters is here.
One of their founders donated funds to build the Art Gallery that begins with a "B" and whose name escapes me right now.
Wegmans is nearly "local" - being a Rochester corporation.
Whole Foods would seem to me the most likely to open a small format store somewhere downtown. I have personally never seen a Tops or Wegmans that was integrated into either an existing building or a place that didn't require an enormous amount of parking. Whatever your opinion of Whole Foods is they are willing to open stores in existing buildings. Look around NYC or Boston, they are everywhere. They are definitely more expensive than Wegmans or Tops but who do you expect to be living in brand new lofts? I can't imagine they will be low income housing.
If you have ever lived in a big city you would know that there are 3 ways to get groceries; walk and carry, shop and have it delivered, online shopping and delivery through Freshdirect.com. If we are assuming that the shopper is a downtown resident we need to let go of the large suburban parking lot grocery store idea. That is not urban living/shopping. Look at this link for a typical NYC grocery experience and you see the delivery wagons in the front.
http://quiteallright.blogspot.com/2010/03/family-owned-and-operated.html
Once you can think of shopping from this perspective you can see that there are ample possibilities available for downtown without the parking issue. As far as square footage - shopping for food can be multi level and not a mega store with the use of shopping cart escalators (see link) http://www.flickr.com/photos/abena/192660761/
A grocery, a dry cleaner, small hardware store, pet supplies etc will form a neighborhood. That is what we have failed to call downtown and what I think we are hoping to achieve a new urban neighborhood, not a shopping and business center as it used to be.
I'm not so sure why many of you feel that a Trader Joe's or Whole Foods is a must for downtown. Less you forget that Wegman's has a very good reputation for drawing people to their stores thus becoming as much a "destination" grocery as a TJ or WF. I've been to both those stores and they're much more expensive overall, especialy if you're not concerned about fancy organic stuff and just want the typical products/brands. Not to mention Wegmans tends to cater their product line to the local demographic of the store location so I'm sure you would still find many similar or equal products that a TJ or WF has.
The liklihood that Wegmans will come downtown is much higher than either of the alternatives setting up a store here for the first time. Let's face it, they would choose Amherst/Clarence/Williamsville/OP as a test ground long before downtown, which honestly makes more sense from a business standpoint.
The likely hood of a Wegmans downtown is probably less than that for TJ or WF. They have made it a point to avoid any area that could even be slightly construed as not upper class white suburban.
I was basing that theory solely on the fact that they have such a large presence in WNY and logistically/economically it makes sense, at least to me.
A Dash's or similar on the ground floor od the Artspace Building would do great business without the need for expansive parking.
A Dash's or similar on the ground floor od the Artspace Building would do great business without the need for expansive parking.
To the side argument going on between brownteeth and Ftheredtape; I don't know why bigotry is even a discussion on this as no one has mentioned a particular race, religion or ethnicity. And I think we all know the difference between a lower middle income person or family that is trying to survive versus a vagrant or street person. To live anywhere in the city a person surrounds themselves with the diversity of many groups and it is completely accepted, but to encounter drunks, drug addicts and the such while shopping is not acceptable. And sad to say, you encounter those vagrants at Tops on Niagara, not at the tops on Grant, or Elmwood, or Wegmans.
"And sad to say, you encounter those vagrants at Tops on Niagara,"
What I find strange is that Tops doesn't improve security at its Niagara St store by having a continuous uniformed professional very competent guard standing near the entrance way. They'd need to have more than one on duty at a time to do that continuously, but it would proactively prevent what bt mentioned earlier -
brownteeth>"The vestibule smells overwhelmingly of stale beer and the garbage cans are constantly spilling over in that area and outside."
Extra costs for doing that could be partly offset by less cleanup work being needed, and probably in other ways too including better protecting their brand image and attracting back some customers who won't shop there now at all or as often as they otherwise would.
Retailers don't locate in areas with the still lousy demographics of downtown Buffalo. Case closed.
Try again when the downtown population exceeds 50,000 with a high percentage of college degrees and better than average incomes.
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The market situation in Buffalo is slight complicated by the fact that residential development has been scattered around downtown in most cities that are establishing downtown housing, it is usually clustered in 1 or 2 areas. This makes it easier to establish services. It isn't that Buffalo is that spread out, but imagine walking with grocery bags from The Sidway to South Elmwood on a Saturday night. This means the people will still probably drive at times and parking is necessary.
I would say a central location (AM&As maybe) with a limited range of staples as well as a full service deli would be the best option. Forget about getting a Whole Foods or Trader Joes and instead focus on getting Tops to open a limited service market with a deli to support the downtown workforce that wants options for lunch.
In St. Louis, Schnucks, the local grocers opened Culinaria downtown. http://www.culinariaschnucks.com/about_us.asp
They did it not only to meet a need but also to be good corporate citizens. It is a great concept store with a mix of prepared food and grocery staples. At 21,000 sf, it is large but not huge. It has a limited selection of everything a resident would need.
So let's hit up Tops and get them ahead of the curve. Their opening a boutique market would solve the chicken and egg problem with a grocery store downtown.
I think a dash's market would be a great fit. Their business model already has smaller stores which would be a better fit for downtown. Parking will be a must though as only a small ammount of customers would be able to walk there, regardless of where it is put.
Parking will be a must....
And, that's why a market will not be appearing anytime soon. There is not enough density downtown for a market to be successful. How many BRO readers visit Washington Market on a daily/weekly basis? I was there on a weekday before noon in December and I was the only customer for an hour.
I agree with Texpat, though, that Tops would be interesting but that's only if they are willing to experiment with a new concept and use downtown as its laboratory. Wal-Mart is doing the same in a few cities.
The Washington Market's an overpriced joke. I live right behind it and refuse to step foot in the place. Its "grocery" selection is dreadful, at best, and the hours are pathetic. It's much more focused on the lunch crowd and catering, which is fine, but it would certainly be nice if they paid mind to the fact that hundreds of people live above, next to and behind it -- all of whom have grocery needs.
>It has a limited selection of everything a resident would need.
I see you are not Hispanic. Tops is brilliant at adapting to local markets. They have been in that neighborhood (walking distance from my house) a long time. There's also Price Rite, also walking distance, and if I need something hippie I it's a short ride to the Coop. I also have an organic food share from a local farm which we pick up every week at the Massachusetts Avenue Project on Grant St. Life couldn't be better in deep downtown Buffalo!
I agree with the AM&As idea. Ideally, you could mix lofts and a tops/wegmans under one roof. Placing them in the Main Place Mall would also be convienient because you can fit more space into a skyscraper.
Being agressive Downtown would be an understatement. You need reasons to say, "Why aren't you living here?" More than the amenity of a grocery store. I mean the combo residential and hotel is truly a smart move because of shared amenities. I foresee that as the future of Downtown luxury living.
There needs to be a North/South trail of luxury buildings like that every block to 2 blocks so that there is continuity. I see that taking shape, but there aren't enough apartments/condos.
I mean there needs to be 3 to 4 times as much because the Downtown population is only 1700 (within the traditional Ellicott Rectangle)!