City Expects to Select Webster Block Developer in Two Weeks

The renderings look great.

I know this won't happen realistically, but I'd like to see the city reject both for now and issue a new RFP with a 6 month time frame but stipulating that there will be zero public subsidy.

Why should there have to be any? It's a good location, doesn't have any old building needing rehab, doesn't have any pollution cleanup issues…

Maybe a second RFP process would result in improved bids from either Pegula or Paladino which don't assume taxpayer subsidies, or maybe some other developer who didn't submit a plan this time would the next time. Worth a try.

Both look great. I'm not even going to vote, both are winners!

Ellicott's design looks really good. I saw the presentation online (city website), and the architect did a nice job of explaining how the new building will fit into the Canalside project. Had some really nice contextual detailing and pedestrian amenities that the Sabres didn't get anywhere near.

My reservation is with Paladino. He's shown us that he is a real bully. Also, he doesn't have the credentials that the Sabres do as far as being honest, good citizens and getting things done.

Both projects look great while I prefer the Sabres idea to draw people downtown. The Ellicott rendering looks better IMO. The Sabres rendering looks to be a similar color to the HSBC tower which I think looks dirty. But idk maybe its a rough rendering.

Those look pretty awesome. I'd be happy with either of them!

like the corner entrance and use of brick in the first rendering.

..both look identical -> a hotel dropped onto a parking garage.

the addition of the rinks in the sabres proposal is interesting but otherwise there is not a huge difference between the two although I would be interested in who has the better sidewalk frontage - retail etc.

Paladinos looks best for that block. The sabres can build their development in any of the numerous full block surface lots toward Ohio st.

I reviewed both reports. Paladinos report was much more robust with real concern to fit into the "historical" vibe of the area.

The office space is very attractive to reinforcing a lunch hour/after work audience.

Regarding the submission of amended bids. New York City did that with the competition for the Math/Engineering bid process. It pissed off some of the universities, but they got a truly amazing project. I don't think buffalo has the goodwill or demand to mess around with developers like that.

The renderings are superior but I worry about Buffalo being "owned" by a sports team. Arenas don't necessarily bring any economic benefit to cities because the profits are internalized, I don't see how this can be much better. Well it's better than EDC getting it, I suppose.

Either one is fine although the ice rinks in Sabres plan seems like it would generate more traffic for the hotel , retail and restaurants. Webster and Donovan, then add the Childrens Museum and Public Market and watch all other private investment line up to fill out the Canalside streets and Cobblestone District.

Even if the Paladino proposal wins the swim suit competition the Sabres' proposal wins the pageant.

500,000 visitors would seem to trump all. The City ought to make sure that the Sabres proposal is shaped to meet the other criteria.

while paladino's looks great, the question we have to ask is - which of these is going to bring outside people and outside dollars to buffalo. One has to imagine that Pegula's thinking in building 2 rinks and a hotel together is to bring in and host hockey tournaments. Anything from Western PA to Southern Ontario would be able to host regional tournaments at Harbor Center. In addition, it be a great sell to try and bring back the World Juniors or Frozen Four again.

Like with Gates Circle and the proposed Vet Hospital - we sometimes have to sacrifice what looks esthetically better for what ultimately brings in more people, more revenue and ultimately keeps more people in buffalo.... of course, this is coming from an ex-pat, what do I know.

First off, the two proposals are nowhere near equal. The Paladino proposal is for 63million, while The Sabres proposal is 123million, almost twice as much. You get what you pay for. Also remember that Ellicott development has said that inclusion of the office component is contingent on market demand at the time of construction. They have been sitting on court street for 5 years now. So whats the chance their end product will turn out to be much smaller then depicted.

THE CITY NEEDS TO PUT THIS PROPERTY OUT TO BID AND SELL IT TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER AND BE DONE WITH IT !!! THE CITY DOESNT DESERVE TO OWN ANY PROPERTY. THEY CANT EVEN TAKE CARE OF THE TREES THEY PUT OUT TO BID THAT WE PAY FOR ! NO SUBSIDIES OR TAX DOLLARS SHOULD BE USED TO HELP WHOEVER BUYS THIS LAND ! ITS OUTRAGIOUS THAT THEY WOULD EVEN ASK FOR MONEY TO DEVELOPE IT ! CORPORATE WELFARE !IM GLAD IM ALMOST OUT OF THIS GHETTO BUFFALO. WONT BE LONG ! IM GOING WHERE THE PUBLIC TRANSPOTATION DOESNT GO !

Is there anything stopping either of the proposals not chosen from being built somewhere in that sea of parking lots just west of the arena? Putting one of these projects over there would bridge the gap between the arena, cobblestone district and the casino.

Well I'm on that area, I'm still hoping someone comes along to put that DL&W terminal to good use. That thing has some really interesting potential.

The residential portion of Palidino's proposal is the game changer for me. If we want it to be a viable district it needs to have residents. His proposal runs the gamut as far as mixed use goes. Hotel, residential, commercial office space, retail. I see the retail and residential as being the most important to the vitality of canal side.

It looks like the Paladino and Benderson supporters are out in force giving a thumbs down to any suggestion that they should have to fully pay their own way.

But hey, I bet they just HATE government subsidies as un American.

Does anyone really trust Paladino?

Pegula's project would actually bring people into the region, help Canisius, fill a need, and generate some spinoff spending from the area from those vising the rinks, which operate 12 months of the year.

It's also valued twice as much, which means twice as much in property tax.

Pegula has been a man of his word. Paladino, not at all. No question as to which is superior. Pick Pegula and let's get moving.

The real queation here is apartments vs retail. Pegulas proposal offers twice as much retail and that makes it a winner. Not to mention I trust Pegula over Paladino. Paladino has had his chance, give Pegula a shot.

I think that Pegula should have tried to get Canisius on board for this. They were looking for a new arena and could cover a share of the arena building costs.

We're a good hockey area and its a shame we don't seem to have any major hockey programs at the local universities. This could be a step in the right direction.

Does anyone really trust Paladino?

Pegula's project would actually bring people into the region, help Canisius, fill a need, and generate some spinoff spending from the area from those vising the rinks, which operate 12 months of the year.

It's also valued twice as much, which means twice as much in property tax.

Pegula has been a man of his word. Paladino, not at all. No question as to which is superior. Pick Pegula and let's get moving.

For those praising the detail in Paladino's proposal, did you actually look through the 70+ pages? I did and it's crap. There are mistakes everywhere and it looks like a 13 year old put it together on Powerpoint. Let's raise our standards a bit people. Pegula will make sure this gets done. I'd like Paladino's a bit more if the residential was condos instead of apartments, but I guess that would be far too revolutionary?

The presentation (aired on the public access channel) by the representative of the owner, along with the reps from the construction and architect companies for Terry Pergula’s project, was impressive. Both companies had outstanding portfolios of their big bucks projects. Also, there was approximately six months of planning, visits to other cities and consultation with WNY companies (example: Benderson - for hotel details).

The commitment to Buffalo and the sizeable “investment” in it was emphasized. (Many millions of dollars would not be recouped.) To give more weight to that declaration, it was added that if Pegula wanted to just make more money he could drill another well.

Also, the intention is to have a broad spectrum of customers/users and to generate many jobs (1,000 plus, plus in the construction phase ─ hundreds after completion) with sincere concentration on using local contractors, vendors, etc. MBWE goals are to be vigorously monitored and it was cited that there were several previous projects where targets had been significantly exceeded. Helpful for local participation has been the partitioning of certain building jobs so they are manageable and achievable.

Yea! Mark Goldman was among those responding after the presentation. He, along with Andrew Rudnick, raised concerns about the relevant details that where not covered.

Casting a vote for Pergula's plan. It's open to tweaking and there's confidence it will be delivered timely and commendably.

I like the residential component, but the hockey rink would be nice if it could also function as a meeting/exhibition space. Not to detract from the Statler and current CC, but that could be a great draw for conventions looking for a hotel under the same roof as meeting space and entertainment.

If it's just a rink, however, unable to be used for any other purposes... I'd definitely go with residential instead. A fair mix of condos and rentals would help bring a little more life into the area and help guide the development of canalside.

Putting out another rfp with a no subsidy stipulation sounds like a great idea but doesn't seem very realistic.

First, this project may be eligible for state and federal subsidies that are outside the jurisdiction of local government. The city would have no say on the project qualifying for New Market, green building or other programs offered by higher levels of government.

Second, putting a moratorium on local subsidies for this single property would be strangely arbitrary. What good reason would Benderson-PL be eligible for IDA funding for their place across the street while the Webster Block would not?

This property is literally surrounded by development/companies that have received subsidies and special treatment by the public sector (Sabres, Casino, PL-Benderson HSBC(?) etc). Why single the Webster Block out as a place that will receive different treatment than others?

It is quite unfortunate that there were no bidders from outside WNY.

Of the two entries, I like both concepts but would give the nod to Paladino.
This space is perhaps one of the regions greatest real estate assets.
Ice rinks have too narrow of an appeal.

Sure Buffalo is a hockey town, but that primarily refers to the NHL, during hockey season.
Yes there is a (relatively) big youth hockey interest, but what percentage of the population are we suggesting that appeals to ( less than 10%? ... and that is during the winter not spring and summer.

Finally, I would like to see the rinks built, but there must be alternative locations nearby the webster block that is not quite so prominent.

I'm all for having the Sabres develop the area, it would be a nice draw to have the rinks and the sports bar near the arena. It would be a great experience to skate a bit and get some beers/food before a hockey match. I think that is the key word; what plan is going to provide an "experience" for a visitor or local; not as much as what it looks like, in my opinion anyway. Plus, I worry about Palladino and his business sense. I worry it's not the best thing for downtown.

A few weeks ago it was 80+ degrees and Sabres had Developmental Camp so I stopped by to watch and it was awesome being able to be near ice on a hot day, I love this concept. The Sabres already have a nice presence down there, the Sabres Store has a radio show air from there every week day 10a-12p, tour buses bring people in to tour the Arena, Pegula paying for the landscaping around the arena, all show Pegula is trying to make the area nicer, getting rid of the 'ghosttown'.

Meanwhile if you look around some of the tumbleweed is coming from Paladino Lots.

A rink will draw people in from the suburbs and surrounding area for youth hockey tournaments.

Residential, at this point, will bring people from other parts of the city to live in this area.

In my opinion, bringing suburbanites back into the city is Buffalo's biggest chance at success. Change the mentality about downtown and make it a place people want to go and are excited to go. This development, along with the rest of Canalside, should do this. Once we get our own metro area's residents to believe and invest in downtown then we can worry about tourists from other areas.

as much as I want Pegula to do what he wants....I like Paladinos renderings better....it looks more pedestrian friendly and user friendly....

Pegula has proven to be a good neighbor, has the financial wherewithal, and his concept is double the investment over Paladino. As a previous poster stated, something more then just a mixed use project is needed to draw more people to the building and the duel rinks (which can also double as other playing surfaces) accomplish that. I would however like to see Pegula add in some residential units, perhaps some mid level condo's to offset building costs.

Building wise, they are both an effort to cram 10 ga. Sh.. into a 5 ga. Pale. Lots going on.

So, you have to look deeper. Click on the architect's websites, Charles Gordon has done that quaint (but successful) project on Main Street as well as a smattering collection of nice projects around WNY. Populous just did the Olympic stadium, in London, for the Olympics. As well as pretty much every new stadium constructed in this country over the last 25 years. The Pegula's are also showing a track record of getting things done.

How many chances does Carl get to disappoint the City of Buffalo?

What I want to know, is if Ellicott get's picked, will Pegula plan to built this complex (or a similar one) in a near by parcel, or is he all-in or nothing on the Webster block. My thoughts are he wants to build this practice facility regardless but obviously webster is his first choice.

Why have one building when you can have 2?

I like Carl's best for this site, but i Like how Pegula's hotel is all along Main Stree, and will give you great views of Canalside. I don't see Joffrey Lupul complaining about his hotel views from here on out!

How does the Pegula plan cost twice as much? If you remove the $40M for the hockey rink, the plans are similar in size. Why the $20M difference?

Wish there was a way to get both done.

Find a way for the city to acquire the HSBC Atruim parking lot and ask Pegula to build his plan there. He can add parking to replace what is lost and it would still be next door to HSBC arena.

In exchange for doing this, ask Carl to remove the hotel component from his plan and do just residential and office space.

I won't vote for one or the other because I'm glad something is going there (finally). But my choice would be something that will bring people to the area. That leans towards the hockey thing. We have plenty of other buildings that exist and can be converted to residential. You don't need to build new ones yet. The hockey concept already exists as the arena is there...let's build on it. (and by no means am I a hockey buff) But many are and they will come for any and all hockey stuff. While kids practice and dads watch games, other family members may want places to eat (restaurants) and shop (retail). Go Hockey!!

Why doesn't Carl take his idea, downsize it and use it in his Creamery building that's sitting vacant and an eyesore.
That building can hold a small hotel and apartments with retail on the first floor.

If the Sabres' proposal is chosen (my personal preference), I hope Paladino/Ellicott has the decency to choose against any lawsuit/obstruction effort. Spiteful lawsuits are the achilles heel of Buffalo development. Either option is a huge step for canalside, Buffalo, and all of WNY.

Don't go with the Paladino proposal - we DON'T need more office space (HUGE vacancy in the nearby tower and other buildings) and he doesn't have a good track record (Think of the Court street preferred status he had...what a joke.) I suspect the other porposal is VERY real and has the best chance of happening. Buffalo should not put all its eggs in one or two local baskets - that equals monopolized failure and the same BS put up with for a long time all ready.

FYI - the first few comments suggest no pulic subsidy. No subsidy = NO development. Chicago, Philly and other MUCH larger cities even understand this. We're not London or Manhattan - WNY should get beyonjd its small town thoughts and learn why a subsidy is needed. Oh wait...its Buffalo the town of VERY few people who actually understand the word development.

Being an outsider, I don't claim to know anything about Buffalo politics, money, or real estate, but the Pegula plan just seems to have more 'life' than the other plan. Specifically, It appears to have a more vibrant overall purpose and dynamic feel at street level. The Paladino plan looks clean, but just doesn't exude as much localized 'confidence'. It seems to me, a layman, that Buffalo's most lucrative market is Canada. Canadians love hockey. Buffalo, not just the Sabres, would do well to market itself as a 'Hockey Heaven'. In short, I'd be more inclined to make the trip from NYC to visit the HOK / Pegula project (and suspect the same of every person I know). It seems to uneducated me, that you would get back what you pay for it - as a truly regional draw with a realistic ( but awesome) plan.

Both proposals are tasteless monstrosities but the Sabres proposal features more integrity and flow than the weird Ellicott mutt. Nothing special in either case but a marked improvement over a big empty lot.

God..is it a subsidy if the government shouldn't be taking your money in the first place and takes WAYYYY to much in the end? Bunch of winers...these people are proposing multi million dollar projects that will put other people to work and they wanna minimize the debt load that results from the government authorized shake down? Gawsh..shame on them.

I love love love the last picture thats street view of the Sabres proposal. This will be a great start and lead to another heavy stream of people the in the area to shop at local businesses. We could use residential in other places much much more...5 minutes down Main Street to be exact.

Sabres proposal all the way..but I can't help but think how great it would be in its original location. The big blue wall at West Utica and Main (when Pegula was talking to Canisus?)..this could be a great start to the mid-town "College District" that doesn't exist at the moment lol..but could from Forest Lawn to Harvard Place.

I 2nd the above..Mr. Pegula..if for some reason you're not picked please built this project elsewhere!!! Same for Carl..I won't hold my breath though.

All of the people that talk about needing an attraction to get people downtown have it all wrong.

It's about getting people to LIVE downtown. Getting people to LIVE there is the only way to have sustained development.

How many silver-bullet projects designed to get people to come downtown have to fail before you people wake up and realize that it's the wrong approach?

Therefore, I like Paladino's idea. I think Terry should definitely build his idea too, but build it east of the arena - not on the Webster Block.

Let me toss a curveball out there. What about the block east of the arena. I know there's some metal fabricating business in there. That place would be an amazing building for residentail. Why doesnt some buy that place and pack it with condos. I bet they'd sell like hot cakes. Also, what about the Blacksmith shop. With all this investment going on how come someone hasnt jumped in to buy these properties. That block is a gold mine waiting to happen. Ps if anybody is interested in putting together a development plan let me know. I have a financial backer that would chip in a couple thousand.

I do like what Paladino is getting his "inspiration". However, the buildings should be separate but connected. Putting two buildings from different ages on top of one another gives it the drop a building on a building feel. That being said parking should be underground and restricted to the number of spaces needed for residences and hotel. Otherwise "prime real estate" is being wasted as it is today. There is sufficient parking up and down Main, Perry, Exchange etc for Sabre games or Atrium/News employees. Lastly, substitute additional rentals or hotel in lieu of office space. Downtown needs residences not more office space. The Pegula proposal is not all guaranteed- built as needed and can go anywhere and is no better than a casino. I feel both proposals have sufficient negatives that warrant a thanks but no thanks at this time.

Ellicott Development is teaming up with Castle Mosey LLC on a $64 million proposal that is pending on $63,999,999.00 in tax brakes.

Both are great ideas. A combination of the two could work as well. A new arena used for local tournaments complimented by a hotel, shopping and eating area could work very well. An infusion of new ideas is ideal.

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