Two Visions Offered for Gates Hospital Site
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Leave a commentInteresting! I actually think the veterinary school is the more interesting option, since it would bring something completely new to the area, with many well-paying jobs for faculty and staff. It is also probably a more realistic plan than the Uniland one, in terms of actually getting built as described. I have a deep and abiding distrust of these "build a whole new neighborhood in one shot" proposals.
One thing I wonder about with the vet school, though, is how the neighbors and perhaps the zoning code will feel about it. Veterinary medicine isn't just about dogs and cats. Probably a larger sector of it is horses, cows, pigs, chickens, and other agriculture-related and livestock animals. Does a veterinary hospital involve cows and horses being transported along Delaware Avenue to the hospital every day? Seems like a potential NIMBY magnet.
"One thing I wonder about with the vet school, though, is how the neighbors and perhaps the zoning code will feel about it."
I figure if they can accept zoning for a [human] medical complex, they can accept zoning for a veterinary one . . .
"Veterinary medicine isn't just about dogs and cats. Probably a larger sector of it is horses, cows, pigs, chickens, and other agriculture-related and livestock animals. Does a veterinary hospital involve cows and horses being transported along Delaware Avenue to the hospital every day?"
If so, I imagine they'll be transported in vehicles designed for that purpose; I doubt you'll ever see herds of livestock being moved up Delaware Avenue.
Anyway, I believe the preference in those cases is to move the animals as little as possible from the farm; most treatment of large livestock animals is done on site, while classroom/labwork is done at the school.
darn. i was kind of enjoying the vision of cattle being herded up delaware. best traffic calming device ever!
In my opinion, the Uniland Proposal is clearly superior. I do wish they had kept some of the more historic buildings within the hospital campus. Disconnecting the buildings would be a significant challenge, though. I'm not sure the more modern styling will go over well with the neighbors. It's also worth noting that they basically followed the Urban Land Institute massing exactly.
Both are nice concepts - I would like to blend them together. The Veternary hospital if realistic is the more appealing from a regional economic point of view since it creates something new to the area - exactly what Buffalo needs. They both have appealing architectural elements but Uniland has to dump those 70's style mansard caps on those buldings. Uniland is also faking it up with the number of people in their images.
Notice also that Uniland is showing a 10 story or so building now at the Park Lane site as well as innfill on Lancaster. That is a nice twist on that project. the tower was sexy but this could be better urbanism.
Which mansard style caps are you referring to in the Uniland renderings? Do you mean the Chason Affinity rendering?
But I agree, the dozens of people in the fountain at Gates Circle is hilarious! Is this project going to make Gates Circle a pedestrianized street? Very few people would dare the traffic to go hang out by the fountain. I don't think I've ever seen anyone in the fountain area except the occasional waders trying to cool off before the city shooed them away with the "no swimming or wading" signs a few years back!
Overall, the scale of the Uniland Proposal is very nice. I'm not crazy about the architectural styling Uniland chose. The veterinary hospital is an interesting concept, but I'm not impressed by what they've done to the main building. Chason Affinity's ideas seem much more feasible, which is appealing. Having this site be vacant lot for an extended period would be a real tragedy.
I vote for Vet Hospital concept.
Bringing more young, professionally bound students from outside the area into Buffalo for a medical college is genius and unique.
Negative in rendering: The retention of small windows in the main building. Hopefully a better exterior treatment would be in the final design.
I believe the Uniland project is better suited for the Children's Hospital site.
The Buffalo News video has some better renderings on the renovated Homeopathic Hospital You may wish to include here.
This is a tough one, both proposals are awesome.
Which proposal will produce tax revenue? The Millard was non-taxable.The Vetinary Teaching Hospital will be non-taxable too. The city needs revenue. I like the Vetinary Teaching Hospital Idea. Why doesn't Kaleida give them a deal on some land near the BNMC. The BNMC adds an innovative and economy adding facility and the Uniland proposal adds the maximum amount of tax revenue for a very desirable propety on Gates Circle.
Which proposal will produce tax revenue? The Millard was non-taxable.The Vetinary Teaching Hospital will be non-taxable too. The city needs revenue. I like the Vetinary Teaching Hospital Idea. Why doesn't Kaleida give them a deal on some land near the BNMC. The BNMC adds an innovative and economy adding facility and the Uniland proposal adds the maximum amount of tax revenue for a very desirable propety on Gates Circle.
Though this area is nowhere near downtown, do we really need another residential/hotel/office concept. This worked in the Avant,is working in the Lafayette and there's still the Statler. So do we have the "people" to accomodate another 276 new units to reside in? And with Delaware Park so close, do we need another park?
Though I think the Uniland concept is cool and would work if there was an "influx" of people moving to the area, I think the Veterinary concept is better suited to our area and situation. Again, as someone stated in an earlier post, this is something new, will draw people in from out of the region and create permanent jobs. It adds residential and "new" business and being close to the Buffalo Zoo is a plus for the concept.
Not sure if you're serious?
For starters, this is a mix of new housing types into a residential area with retail assets. Something that would benefit everyone.
Secondly, and asking again, just because someone throws out the idea of a vet school does not mean a vet school is going to happen. The $1M question is why hasn't there been a vet school created in 30 years?
I like unilands. It might not be the easiest but, it is what it should be a return to residential. Same with Children's. There are numerous other buildings and sites where you could build a school.
Hopefully we are as impressed with the Webster block designs.
In terms of economics and creativity, Chason Affinity's Vet Hospital gets my vote.
i, too, am intrigued by the veterinary school proposal. the developers claim that there is a shortage of vet schools. does that translate into a shortage of vets? or would this school dump more vets on the market than there are jobs for?
this is a serious issue in more than one professional field. law & other graduate schools have been churning out way more graduates than the market can absorb, especially with the advent of distance learning. i've heard that some schools are getting sued by their graduates over false claims of employability.
having said that, it works for ithaca. every year it gets an influx of population. they fill up apartments and cafes, they spend $100K or so during four years on tuition, rents, clothing, groceries, and so on, and they are continually replenished by newcomers.
plus, reuse of the existing buildings is a better use of resources than throwing them in a landfill.
oh, and steel: those 'caps' are not mansard roofs. i see hip roofs (the red ones) and homage to the inverted roof used by toshiko mori at the martin house visitor center (3rd rendering from bottom).
A vet school would much better economic driver than simply adding more housing, hotel rooms, and office space. Both projects look like good choices though. Perhaps the developer who isn't selected can put their concept towards reuse of the Children's site.
Veterinary school all the way!!!!
New people to the area to spend money. Permanent jobs! Preservation of an old 1911 building! Could Uniland guarantee securing the amenities quoted in the concept? What restaurants, retail? If we can't get restaurants and retail on our waterfront, why would they go there. There are tons of vacant spots for restaurants and retail, yet they are still vacant. And a small market. Again, if our current market owners, Tops, Wegmans, Dash's and Budwey won't open downtown, why would they open there with other supermarkets so close? So what market? 7-11?
And as buffaloroamer said, another park? Really?
I foresee the Uniland concept having a lot of vacant storefronts with FOR LEASE signs in the beautiful new windows.
I love the Vet Hospital idea. Like others have said, the residential can be done elsewhere. If you incorporate a little of the Uniland proposal - the park-like stuff- in the surrounding area of the vet hospital its a win win. Just imagine a quad-type area where could be a dog-friendly pet park where people come specifically to the campus because of all the great dog walking amenities. I have no idea what that actually means or would look like, but something nicely fenced in, on a few acres. So its urban-ish and its dog friendly. Maybe a very, very mini-petting zoo. There must be some part of going to Vet school that stresses the animal's relationship with humans, kids, so that department could head up some kind of community activity involving the animals? Combine all of this with they young vet students living and working around the area and you've got a nice little pocket area that gets known for its animal-friendly scene....
Dog parks are huge in NYC. Definitely a great idea
The veterinary school proposal has a lot going for it: filling a real need, reusing existing medical facilities in a smart way, preserving the 1911 building etc. But a new veterinary school is a huge academic undertaking—a lot more than the brick and mortar. Is there any reason to believe the right people and institutions are behind this? Is there an existing university (like UB), or other organization that would provide the educational backbone for this? If so, I haven’t seen it discussed anyplace.
I don't agree that the Vet School is the best use for this site. A better fit would be at UB's South Campus, in the soon to be vacated Medical School.
I disagree with others that think housing/mixed use "can go anywhere". The Gates Circle site is highly desirable for residential. This value is lost if it turns into a Vet School.
Also, the scale of the new Uniland development, especially on the Circle, is a huge improvement over the old hospital building. The renderings do a good job at showing the dramatic change that will happen.
I'm really surprised by all the comments choosing the vet hospital. Is it the reuse factor? The Uniland proposal is much better if you are trying to remake the site with a coherent vision.
I need to point out that the design and renderings of the Vet hospital reuse look like it was thrown together the night before it was due.
The reason why the vet school is such a good idea is because there is a HUGE need for another vet school in the state. To my knowledge, which may be incorrect about this, there are only 1-2 vet schools in the state. Since vet school is so expensive if you're paying out of state tuition elsewhere, everyone in NY is applying to these two schools, making admission extremely difficult. There would be a tremendous influx of young professionals into the area with the opening of a vet school in the area, because the need is just so, so great. Honestly, I don't think that a mixed use apartment/condo facility here would be very successful; I'd venture that the majority of the people who live in the village and surrounding area (including myself a block away from the circle), wouldn't want to live in a big mixed use condo/apartment complex. The major draw to the neighborhood is living in the old houses, whether they're rented or owned.
So essentially, the reason why the vet school is better is because it will draw hundreds if not thousands of people from outside of Buffalo into the city. Not just that, but you'll get long term, sustainable jobs for the people of buffalo working at the college. If this is turned into an condo complex, you're only drawing in people from the city, and drawing off our own resources to occupy it; I don't think that our housing situation is in such dire straits that you have that many people looking to move into this area. There are tons of apartment complexes already down delaware that I'm sure have plenty of vacancies.
There is no credible evidence that there is the need for another Vet school in NYS.
Also, we have no idea how Chason would accomplish this project. It's not like they're in the Vet. School business.
Finally, there is no basis to say that "thousands" or even hundreds of jobs/people will be come to this site if it is a Vet. school.
"the majority of the people who live in the village and surrounding area (including myself a block away from the circle), wouldn't want to live in a big mixed use condo/apartment complex."
Why would it expect new apts/condos to draw only from the Elmwood-Delaware district? I would think it would be a draw from the whole metro area.
I vote for the vet school. It will bring new, well paid people to Buffalo. Do we really need another boutique hotel, they might spend all that money and it could end up just as empty as the building is now. Uniland will create temporary jobs the Chason Affinity proposal will have a longer lasting effect on the city.
I'd go with the Vet School all the way. Bringing any new type of economic driver to Buffalo is a huge plus.
What's the source of the endowment to start up the college. I imagine the start up costs of a medical school must be enormous. Did the presentation outline the financial backers? Will the school be affiliated with any established universities? I would prefer this to Uniland. If they go with uniland, I think it should be smaller scale and perhaps they can extend lancaster to linwood and split up the land into small residential parcels. People can then purchase these and custom build houses that fit into the canvas of the neighborhood.
i think Chason Affinity needs to get a new CAD programs that generates renderings as crisp as Uniland. It immediately had me leaning towards Uniland but i like Chason's idea. Who woulda thunk?
Is there really a need for vet programs? A quick search had me reading about oversaturation.
Children's Hospital will need a reuse also. Could the Vet school go there while Uniland gets this site?
Also give $1 million to the vet school to take over at least some of the Children's hospital complex.
Both ideas are lovely, and I'd happy to see either one move off the drawing board and into reality, instead of going by way of the Gates Circle Tower and Bashar Issa's City Tower.
Considering the state of the campus and the importance of its location.... I'll be pleased with either project.
I think the uniland proposal, while more extreme, would be better for changing the image of the City.
Although I, as I am sure many of you do too, love the old historic side of the city I think we lack a "new and hip" place to live and hang out. I have a friend who lives in Addison TX and this is what the Uniland proposal reminds me of.
It seems like the kind of place where people would want to live and when people come to visit they would say, wow, this is nice, I wouldn't mind living here.
On the other hand, the vet school would bring in a lot of students who would need places to live. It'd help the local economy but I don't think it'd do as much to improve the image of the city. I also think it would be more feasible.
In a perfect world I say build the uniland proposal at Gates Circle and the Vet school at Childrens when it moves. Then the city gets the best of both!
I like elements of both, but I agree that new business development/revenue generation of the vet university makes it slightly more appealing. Also, I would have liked to have seen some historic reuses from Uniland, instead of all new....
Worst case scenario is that Gates stays as it is....which seems less likely to happen.
I love the first concept! Very DC. Love that aesthetic!
We need more residents living in the city that arent supported by the government! There are many other buildings that the Vet School could use around the city. Put residents in residential areas!
Not really sure how the Vet school is more 'realistic' than the other plan. Starting a school is not something that is easy and it's going to take much more than $1m.
If there was interest from UB to establish another campus that would be a game changer but that interest does not appear to exist and I would bet they have already asked.
The way I see it...if there was really a need for Vet Schools....new vet schools would have been created somewhere in the US in the last 30 years. That is just common sense.
Go with the mixed res development. That is for sure going to fit into the neighborhood and would provide items that people who already live nearby would use.
You're right, from an organizational stand point, starting a Vet school from scratch sounds very difficult. I think it seems more feasible because it basically uses the hospital as is, rather than tearing it down and building something new.
jeesh..people a vet school really? I suppose I'd be a little more comfortable with the vet idea if they had said theres a 100 million endowment behind it or partnering with Cornell or UB or something..but there isn't. With whats expected of our economy over the next 2 years (nation wide) and educational spending being the next big bubble...this has got failure written all over it. "You can't just open up the vet school as a business book"...LOL.
Of the 2..the vet school is the development that could go anywhere. This has got nimby all over it..even if they commit to being a fish and lizard hospital..you'll have someone with $$ complain about the smells and the noise etc etc. Plus the huge financial cost of getting a vet school off the ground? Accreditdation? Hiring? Building of curriculium? Even if they build it next week..its 5-10 years off for your behind the scenes organization. Its admirable..but not going to happen.
One thing Buffalo lacks is quality (new) housing in its best neighborhoods. There aren't a flood of people moving to the City due to its housing situation. There is 0 quality new housing available..the apartments are old..condo's are dated. Whats renovated (whether historic or not) is not affordable. After that your forced into the suburbs or giving up your saftey on the other side of Main Street.
I rent in the area and would love to buy new..I disagree with the generalization that the prime driver is the "old historic" homes..I would say the prime driver is the location. Thats whatt its all about..far enough from Elmwood and downtown where you don't have to deal with the negatives..but walking distance for the positives. Lets add to the tax base here..if theres one thing needed more than new housing in developed neighborhoods..its tax revenue for city coffers.
Chapin place would be a great addition to Elmwood...potential for national retailers off the "local" Elmwood strip gives a great opportunity for cross selling. They could both be draws for each other.
Best comment on here so far.
I laughed at the Vet School at first, but its actually a pretty interesting idea. Points for creativity!
Anyone who thinks that Olmsted would have ever wanted to inspire a private park doesn't know very much about Olmsted and why he designed parks in the first place.
Although I originally voted for the vet, I think I"ve changed my mind. There is no real reason to put a medical facility for animals in this location. It seems more reasonable to put it where other students are, such as South Campus, or in the medical corridor where other med people are. AFterall, students needs are different from permanent residents, and would probably appreciate a more collegiate atmophere of bars, not expensive restaurants, easy transportation options, and so on. Not every students wants to live right on campus, and so low cost housing options are needed for them within a short distance from the hospital.
Delaware AVe was and is should remain a place for elegant living. The uniland proposal would bring in more people with disposible income, and they can spend it on better restaurants, which are emerging all over the area.
So -- let's have both! The vet school where it should naturally be, and Delaware Ave and IT should be.
while I wish for the vet school to join Buffalo in some way, I feel that that particular area is not the right place for it. The Uniland design is a better fit for that neighborhood. That neighborhood is on a thin line between sub-par housing and beautiful estates. The vet school would be sure to usher in student housing due to the cheap living costs of the surrounding neighborhood, while the Uniland development will probably raise property values and encourage home ownership in the long run. The Uniland design also incorporates many other corners and areas that have been run down for so long. I hope both get built but I hope the Uniland group builds theirs at this site.
While the Vet school is an interesting idea, the data they are using is quite out of date (see the link below). There is no longer a critical shortage of veterinarians. At this time, there are 29 schools in the US, but 46 worldwide. Nearby, we have the University of Guelph, Cornell, and Ohio State. Plus, as others have indicated, getting a Vet school started and accredited is no small task.
However, a 24 hour Veterinary hospital that has an MRI would probably make tons of sense. Right now, animals have to go to Rochester for an MRI. The only 24 hour clinics are north and south of the city so that is an area of care that is lacking.
I can see the merit of both proposals. What concerns me about the uniland concept is what if there is no interest.....Housing does well but retail in the city is still pretty iffy. I would just hate to see a gorgeous new build sit with empty storefronts. If the vet hospital can actually get going and get the funding, it might be a more immediate impact to the area. Bringing more schools to the area will help bring in population, even if only for their time at school. Even if its just for 4 years, during those 4 years the students will be spending money in the area. Also, the jobs that would come from the hospital would pay decently so thats always a plus for this area. I would still like to see uniland do their concept somewhere within the city limits as well but if the market isn't there, it'll just a waste of the money and resources. Also, I would really like to see them take their ideas and shrink down its footprint. Why not build something in the 20-30 story range somewhere within city limits with all those same ammenities and mixtures of apartments, condos hotel and offices.
Does anyone else find it interesting that despite "national marketing" campaigns for this development and the Webster Block, they only received 2 and 3 proposals submitted? Kind of reinforces the argument that Buffalo is not NYC and Boston. Posters please keep that in mind when commenting on other development opportunities.
I love architect's renderings. They can make anything appealing. That one of all the people around the fountain in the middle of Gates Circle intrigues me. Are they going to install a transporter mat to get them all across the traffic?
The renderings definitely give a great example to the design that could end up occupying this commercial space. Hopefully there will be some sort of positive revenue stream for the city from these construction possibilities.
I love the vet school idea. There are very few vet schools in the country and NY in general. As such, they are very competitive and attract a lot of potential students. I think this could really prove beneficial for Buffalo.
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While I like the Veterinary Hospital reusing the existing structure which tends to be a little more realistic in this area, I really like the Uniland proposal.
It really does create a more park-like atmosphere to the circle without losing it's urban feel.
The architecture is also very contemporary which adds a nice contrast to the buildings already there.
The only downside to it is that 33 Gates Circle Tower is nowhere to be seen in the Uniland renderings which indicates that they've shelved the idea altogether to take this project.
The former Park Lane Restaurant site is noted as 'future development' (number 11) on legend.
Your comment about what is realistic is key. Quicker, lighter, cheaper...
Kalida should consider gifting the property to Canisius High School. The building seems like it could be easily transformed into a boarding school (lots of hospital rooms could work as dorms; larger spaces could be converted into instruction facilities; cafeterias; learning spaces; athletic facilities).
This would help Canisius "institution build" and attract students (and those respective cash flows) from outside of the region.