Ellicott Proposes a Strong Mix of Uses for Webster Block
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Leave a commentIn theory I like this better then the skating rinks. The rinks should certainly be done, but maybe a block or two away - on the surface lots a block down from the FNC where you park for sabres games. Or the other way, close to the canals where the new grass is that just got put down.
The only thing is that how do we know Mr. Paladino will not let this sit idle for years and years, considering all his other things "in the pipeline".
I hope that the city stresses to the two projects that BOTH of these need to be done - if not on this site, then over at some "other" site a block away. It shouldn't be either or. It needs to be both. With both you get a bit of critical mass.
I still say also, that the skating rinks should be built close enough to one of the new canals that you could skate right from an outside canal into one of thee rinks, which could have one "open" wall to allow for this in winter. Any opinions?
Someone wants to look down upon Stan Lipsey -- now literally, as in the past metaphorically -- methinks.
This is across the street from the Buff News. Carl Paladino has a strong disdain for Editor Stanford Lipsey. Rach is commenting on that.
Certainly not much to complain about here, it has all the marks of a good urban design project, I'd hold judgement until we see the Sabres proposal. Like Irish Dave said, will the City stick to hard construction dates?
I personally really like this plan. The building style and materials work and the apartment aspect brings more needed 24/7 foot traffic. It would be nice to see the Sabres rendering which would also be a nice addition to the area but would be better if built a block or two away. While the rinks are great, the canals will offer skating to the general public in the winter.
I really hope the city chooses Ellicott Development. They get sh*t done...no dawdling for them. Look at how beautiful the Fairmont Creamery and Greystone rehabs came out!
While I normally would agree, this is a much higher profile project than the rehabs and court st. since it's at Canal Side and failure to get this done in a decent amount of time could really make Ellicott look bad with the rest of the public that isn't already aware of their spotty track record.
No, I don't agree. Paladino has demonstrated that he does what he wants, and doesn't care what others think, or what the impact on the City is.
That's how he can put a parole office on Main Street, leave his site on Court Street to languish, show no progress at Greystone, the Creamery, etc. He also did what he wanted at the marina, where his building and parking structure blocks the view to the waterfront from Niagara Square, in direct violation of City Planning regulations.
If it were anyone else I could support this project. But selecting Paladino/Ellicott will set waterfront development back another 10 years. I just hope he's not preparing a lawsuit in case he's not selected. That's the kind of guy he is.
what's the blank grey wall in the 3rd rendering from the top? will bro writers ever learn to caption their pictures?
looks like a poor rendering of the HSBC atrium.
I like the overall plan and the preliminary design for the low portion. I wish the tower and lower portion were more integrated. Right now, it looks like the tower was tacked on. It's a good plan overall. This type of building is exactly what downtown Buffalo needs.
Not terrible, not great. The aesthetics are lackluster and could be built anywhere. Lose the parking entrance on Main Street and it would be a lot better design in terms of pedestrian-friendliness. There should be a continuous wall of retail or other transparent uses along the west and south sides of the site. This will probably require a second parking entry on Washington.
Would be cool if they could work that Sabres hockey proposal into that 7th floor office space with the views all around. That would be a cool venue to play and watch hockey so elevated over street lavel with the panoramic views. Work that 73K sq. ft office into additional story or something. Just dreaming here of a hybrid proposal. Both have their pluses.
I saw it. I thought it's funny. He's probably not as bad as Mr. HUGE.
If Ellicott Development is able to build something this grand from scratch, why haven't they started on the 'Court Street Tower' yet? And how about adding first floor retail and restaurant space in their Main Street properties instead of allowing a parol office, drug addiction, and social service offices?????????
Are you seriously asking "why haven't they started on the 'Court Street Tower' yet?"
Court Street is an office building. It was first projected to be 335,000 sq.ft. and then revised to 184,000 sq.ft.. The above project is projected to have ~74,000 sq.ft. and mostly consist of hotel and residential rooms.
In case you were sleeping for the last 5 years, HSBC is no longer the main employer in Buffalo and that big tower they had...well it's having some occupancy issues. Why would anyone build 184k sq ft off office space when the market is this soft?
I swear it's like the armchair developers do not even bother to look at the numbers.
Yes, because the last announcement for 'Court Street Tower' was to include a hotel on the upper floors and first floor retailer. So, what's the difference? Location? We have a demand for more living downtown, the Court St. building could be just a hotel and living spaces since the so called 'office market' is slow. Would like to see something than look at that ugly parking lot.
Forget Court Street. Paladino has plenty of other projects that I'd like to see completed before Court Street or this on Webster. I'm not even that concerned about the creamery. I'm more interested in what's happening with the Greystone and his Main Street properties.
I'd rather stare at a Webster parking lot or grass field, as some have suggested, for another 4 years if it meant Paladino got to work on some of his other projects this city has been waiting for since............................................................
"while the Washington Street and Scott Street façades will be characterized by smaller "punched" windows."
I think they should make both sides have the more transparent views
Like it. The Sabres can build a couple of blocks east to stretch the district that way. 100% for Ellicott.
sell the property to the highest bidder at public auction ! the [deleted] of buffalo shouldnt be in the real estate buisness.
This is a much better project than the ice rinks....The only aspect that is tough to deal with but obviously needed is the parking ramp.......
If they can land an outside of the city,county, state company to lease the large floor plan and also attract a nice hotel with a few other commercial tenants - this will be aligned nicely with the rest of the projects....
But once again, I will say that there still isnt any moment from outside companies, retail etc....except for the hotels....that is disappointing because it might mean that no one else believes in our inner harbor
I also like the design and agree that there are better locations for the rinks.
Guess at tenant for office space? HSBC? Seems like a good spot for them. Out of the tower, large floor plates, across from the Atrium...
Aye. I'm all for massaging his wallet. Paladino is all for massaging ours.
The "new street" is a bunch of b.s. It doesn't help the block in the least and is actually a detriment to the pedestrian experience on Main Street. There isn't even a sidewalk along the south side of it. The only reason it exists is to maximize vehicular circulation to and from the hotel drop off/ lobby and parking structure. So please, give us all a break and spare us the nonsense of calling it a "street". And then there is second "street" to the south of this...pedestrian streetscape continuity on Main Street is more important than cutting the block up into "streets".
Also - retail space on Main is too shallow.. not sure how serious they are about retail. At least its there.. I guess.
I am definitely curious to see the Pegula proposal....
That block is a long stretch and a street to break it up is a good design element. Not sure what you mean by no sidewalk- I cant see from the renderings. If there is a cut-thru street is certainly needs to be pedestrian friendly.
If you look at the plan drawing - the "street" has no sidewalk along the south side and the north side is not a continuous connection - it shifts horizontally to go around angled parking and there is very little commercial space fronting the "street". It's also only 8' wide. It's the furthest thing from the a pedestrian friendly connection across the block. And the "streets" make 2 curb cuts on Main Street - breaking up the sidewalk - the "streets" are not there to make the block more pedestrian friendly.
And the frontage is not that long - it's not a huge block. It's very similar to the frontage on the opposite side of Main Street at canalside - the side they say they are responding to when they break up the webster block with "streets". Calling them "streets" is intended to mask fact they are placing excessive curb cuts on this block.
Would you be happy and shut up if they called it a driveway?
Christ on a cracker people..some of you get your panties in a bunch over anything.
Do you know what that 'street' does..it keeps cars and taxies off Scott. It also keeps hotel guests somewhat protected from the elements. These 'streets' are used by hotels all over the US...from San Diego to Chicago.
they are calling this a "street" and claiming they make the block more pedestrian friendly. That is entirely not true. They also falsely claim that it breaks the block up like the Canalside blocks. Again false, the corresponding block across Main Street in Canalside is just as long.
I totally accept there will be curb cuts and drop offs and overhangs, I just don't like when people pretend they are some kind of public amenity, as if its for the public good. So yes, call it a driveway...there is a difference because now, why are there two driveways that cut across the width of the block and hit main street twice? They don't do that in Chicago, San Diego, or wherever else.
You're wrong.
By moving the hotel pick up and drop off to the 'driveway' it removes congestion on Scott and thus makes Scott more pedestrian friendly.
and you are missing the point.
and there is a big area for drop offs on Scott Street already as shown by the curb alignment.
That big drop off area serves the food and retail. It will probably have it's own valet.
the drop off is primarily for the hotel.
I like the idea better than the sabres, not so sure about the design. I really wish the city would have waited for canalside to develop more which would have the parcel more attractive for development.
Paladino gets a bad rap because he is the largest property owner in downtown. If he didn't own the buildings someone else would and the attention and it wouldn't be so concentrated. It also doesn't help that he doesn't care what people think and will rip you if provoked.
I don't understand why people blame him for the parole office on main street. Isn't it the parole office prerogative where they sign a lease?
I think Pegula should just go back to the drawing table and put together a project that is way over the top and blows Carl out of the water
Add another floor of hotel, another 75,000sf office floor, and 1-2 more floors of apartments.
One thing that NEEDS to happen is to have a landscaped terrace that either a restaurant/bar or event space. This will be like no other space in Buffalo. You can't really beat cocktails on the rooftop, but i'm sorry, skybar isn't going to cut it.
I don't like it, I thought Canalside was supposed to be for the general public, besides some of the retail space outside I doubt I'd ever set foot in this building.
According to the Project Goals http://www.eriecanalharbor.com/pdf/CanalSideProjectGoals.pdf I think the Rink fits in much more. Fits in for tourism, better public use, what kind of public events will the Office space be holding? at night on weekends?
I'd love to see this project built but I think it could be built elsewhere, pretty much the same place others say the rink should be.
"I don't like it, I thought Canalside was supposed to be for the general public, besides some of the retail space outside I doubt I'd ever set foot in this building."
Is this really even considered part of the CanalSide footprint? Plus, Canalside is full of Public Space. We need these types of projects (Hotels Offices Condos) to spur development downtown.
When choosing what goes there I think it should be considered. They all should work together, don't you think? I just don't like office space after 5pm and on weekends.
Pegulas will draw more people, especially tourist types from other places. This is new money for more retail. We want to capitalize on Canadian tourists don't we?
i would definitely agree with this.
The only advantage to the Paladino proposal are the residential units.. but there are only 42. That's not bad but i think the advantage of having a constant activity generator such as the rinks is far better and compliments the adjacent arena and outdoor rinks at canalside. If the rink scheme is married to a good retail plan at the first floor, it's a far batter option especially with the larger hotel on top.
JM I totally agree about the rinks. That would def add to the 24/7 vibrancy as parents would bring their kids to the rinks after working hours and spend time at Canalside as they wait for their kids practice to end. Also, having retail and restaurants open would keep the working crowd a little later. Also, we're starting to see "some" residential (Elk Terminal Lofts, Seneca st, Larkin District and whatever is across from the HSBC atrium in the Cobblestone district) pop up and I could def see the demographic of these projects helping to support new types of restaurants and retail.
(while I'm at it) WE NEED A BRIDGE CONNECTING MAIN ST AND THE OUTER HARBOR!!!!
Who cares? Whatever. Is that meant to be a mean spirited and judgemental jab?
"Don't bite the hand that feeds you."
Signed,
Terry Pegula
SELL IT TO THE HIGHES BIDDER,USE THE MONEY TO TEAR DOWN SOME MORE GARBAGE IN THE GHETTO.
Nothing is worse than sitting for hours at the rink in between games at a tournament. If Pegula ramps up his package and takes some of Carl's ideas as well, this could actually be a silver bullet. Hockey moms would be delited to spend some cash in Canalside while their kids are playing.
Say goodbye to the Hyatt Regency. They were a money loser who only justified their taxpayer subsidies because downtown needed a large enough hotel to handle large events. If this gets built right across the street from the Arena then fah-ghedda-bouddit.
Kiss the Hyatt and its Gennessee Street blocking atrium goodbye.
Snyder and the Hyatt were also the biggest obstacles in opposing a new convention center. If the Hyatt and Snyder fall then Buffalo could see a new convention and conference center on the table for the public to approve.
Now I know there are those that snidely dismiss convention centers...but we have a growing Life Sciences Campus, Banking, Insurance and other regional industries that want conference space.
Conference space is desired at UB Amherst, Buffalo State and the culturals...there is no reason why UB downtown and the research centers wont have a growing conference need.
Of couse I predicted that a smart thing would be to expand the downtown library for ECC and Life Sciences Campus. Could really make a big impact on Buffalo too.
Buffalo has to compete with the suburbs too and library/conference space are big ways to level the playing field.
If Hyatt Ragency goes then does that building go the way of the Statler? Lafayette Hotel until recently? Would hate to end up with another building on egde. I dont think that would be a better option. I do agree a new convention center would make sense and hopefully result in a better Pearl Street once that god aweful back wall of the existing convention center would hopefully go away. In addition returning Genessee Street to traffic would be smart and logical.
Then again if a new convention center went up and all of the sudden Hyatt went away and the old convention center site cleared for new development I wonder what the city would get or if and who would step up to invest large amounts of dollars in new build down there. Seems very few are interested at this time in stepping up with big development proposals in downtown Buffalo other local ones already tied down in other projects. A larger developer pool may be needed and thats what concerns me. Seems like outside interests are not interested in Buffalo.
I like it. Its mixed use. It has retail, hotel, residential and office which means that it can shift uses as Canalside continues to develop.
Id like to see more hotel space. Mostly because the reason for the big taxpayer subsidy that keeps extending the life of the Hyatt is a large number of rooms are needed for big events. Id like to see this hotel compete with that if not replace it.
Ive long thought and wished the Hyatt would convert to mixed use which would justify demolishing the atrium and reopening Genesee Street
Plus Snyder and Hyatt have been the major opponents to a neww convention center. UB Amherst is in need of a conference center. Buffalo State and the culturals are in need of a conference center. It only seems logical that a growing portion of our convention business is conferences and expos rather than full conventions.
The current convention center is obsolete and doesnt belong in the middle of the government district. Its dead space.
I wish this proposal was a little bigger in scale but I think it sets the right pieces in motion for better things in downtown Buffalo.
Based on projects that Paladino has completed (Waterfront Place), this is an exciting step in teh right direction. Having him say they would start construction in May is a good promise to hold him to.
Personally, this is a win-win. As others have said, it would be ideal if both projects could be built. I'd love to see the Sabres win the bid and have Paladino put his efforts into Fairmont nearby. While an ideal situation, that probably isn't realistic. It may be more realistic for Paladino to win Webster and then to have Uncle Terry put his money into the Cobblestone Parking District with this project to add density to the block bounded by Perry, Mississippi and South Park.
Or maybe this could be a sledding hill. #amiright
The problem with the Ellicott developments proposal is that the office component is tentative. Eyewash if you will. Read between the lines They will not build speculative space. If they did Court st would be up and running by now. The remainder of the project is passive. There is nothing in and of itself to generate that urban spark that will attract people to that site. The hotel component, the retail component feed off external events which attract people.
On the other hand the Sabres proposal, also includes a hotel and retail, but in addition contributes (via the ice rinks) an active stimulus to a 24/7 environment.
SELL IT TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER AT PUBLIC AUCTION .LET THEM DO WHAT THEY WANT WITH IT, WITH THIER OWN MONEY! USE THE PROCEEDS TO FIX STREETS AND SIDEWALKS IN THE CITY.THIS IS PATHETIC . ALL OF THE TIME { TAXPAYER MONEY ] BEING WASTED ON A PIECE OF VACANT LAND .LETS MOVE ON BUFFALO !! THE CITY IS ALLWAYS STUMBLING ON LITTE CRAP LIKE THIS
I don't like it. If you look at the renderings some have the old Donovan and HSBC arena. How long have they had these plans if the renderings are that old?
Canalside is an ever-evolving project. I don't think this building fits for Canalside's goal. This SHOULD be built on one of the lots in the cobblestone district.
I know we have not seen the Rink renderings yet but I still 100% believe a rink is the right choice. Take it from someone who has played hockey since 6 years old. A rink is busy 6 am - 1 am. Everyday.
i can promiss you that the 75,000sf office space will be shown a TON of interest from Buffalo area companies (hopefully outside buffalo companies too). These large plates are perfect for call centers or companies with a large bullpen that need all of their employees on one floor
I'm sure these companies would not mind occupying the quickly emptying HSBC tower.
My main question when looking at canalside projects is will they draw people from the suburbs to the city. And the answer to this proposal is no. We need to draw people to canalside. People haven't been going downtown for the past 30 years why should they now? The ice rinks would bring people down. This office/hotel/apt while would bring in some new residences is not a bad plan, but I think it could be anywhere. Bring people downtown who aren't usually there should be the goal of canalside development.
Hard to get excited about the tower component. It's just soooo blah!
Looks like they took the Elmwood Square Apartment building on the corner of Elmwood and West Utica; dressed it up with different windows on the side - and placed it on top of a big box.
And why no retail on Washington Street?
Still think they should try to combine the Paladino and Pegula ideas and add about 25 floors to the tower and go further underground for parking.
Paladino can do better and - we deserve no less.
Think BIG or go home.
Looks like someone dropped a building on a building which ironically then blocks most all of the Atrium view, more than not of the News building view and probably a good chunk of the former Dovovan builidng view which may even lose even more of a view once the Aud site is developed. It pretty much hides the entire expanse down Washington and into Perry. Great design. Top notch. Ironically, for the Creamery, the market can't support additional units down there. But two streets over can.... makes me wonder. So yeah maybe I can bungee jump off this bohemoth if and when it ever becomes viable to actually build.
I was thinking about views, being that anything on the Webster block is going to hide the FNC atrium. But really, we're worrying about blocking views? But we want density? Can't have both, right?
This is why I'm anxious to see Pegula's renderings. I'm sure they took the FNC atrium view into account.
Actually as much as I want the Hyatt converted to mixed use and replaced with another downtown hotel...the point was made that the Statler and AM&As must get redeveloped first.
Its a matter of priorities.
Canalside can wait...its not going anywhere. I say put it on hold and get the 2 largest projects off the list: Statler and AM&As.
Heck the redevelopment of those 2 sites might do in the Hyatt as a hotel all by themselves, then we can re-open Genessee Street and start planning a new convention / conference center.
If we rush into Canalside then we build something mediocre on prime land that we will be stuck with for the next 50 years. Better to wait and get something wonderful and put our energies into AM&As and the Statler.
Plus we could be stuck with an empty HSBC Tower...which the only way I can think of to fill it would force the conversion of the Liberty, Rand, and other pre-war buildings to residential as their business clients move to HSBC.
I don't think the HSBC tower will be emptied. Also the Statler and AM&As are totally separate from canalside. Different developers, etc. I don't understand why your suggesting to wait?
SELL IT TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER AND WERE DONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
its not that simple. The highest bidder could put an awful plan in there that Buffalo is stuck with forever because we didn't want to spend time and think about what we are doing..
Also by you posting almost the exact same comment 3 times in the same thread does not help to get your point across..
Don't feed the troll.
And further, don't distract him. He has been working on the same renovation project for twenty years. He needs to get it done and doesn't need the distraction.
WHD: if you'd like, I'll bring some lemondade to help get you through your day.
I see you have said this at least three times. Perhaps you are the only one feeling this way.
Technically the RFP process rewards the best/most effective plan. Or, it takes the long way to reward the highest bidder. The way the City went about this is genius. They left the placemaking, obstructionist jackasses out of the process while ensuring the bid process will reward the group with the best project and who will get their project built immediately.
Unlike every other project that has even been considered for Canalside, this will be built on a quick timetable to ensure at least part of the neighborhood gets some density, population and potential foot traffic. In actuality, by keeping this out of the hands of those who would table, study, re-study and re-table the project (ECHDC); the city has all but guaranteed a usable, functional building will be built near the waterfront for the first time since about 1899.
But, yeah, lets keep planting grass, buying lawn chairs and providing public access to a small park with a waterfront view. Beauty.
Here's what I foresee happening:
Carl Paladino: Regardless of the City's stipulation of when the project must be started and completed, his entire project will involve talk of where he will get the money to do this project and explaining the financial reasons behind holdups. Corners will be cut to make it work financially and the finished product will not be the same as what we thought we were getting when started.
Terry Pegula: Pulls out his wallet and pays for the entire project up front. With his own money. Then throws in a couple extra bucks for Brown and the Common Council to get themselves a coffee and donuts.
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""It will be a select-service hotel that targets the business, family and leisure traveler."
Well, I guess that narrows it down.
Totally had that same sentence copied and pasted before I read your comment.