City March 3, 2012 12:00 AM

Tear Down the Convention Center and Don't Replace It

Tear Down the Convention Center and Don’t Replace It

By Nicholas Miller

You may have heard, Buffalo lost a bid to host the annual conference of the National Association of Sports Commissions due to the dated condition of the current convention center and the not-so-vibrant condition of Main Street.   You can almost hear it now, can't you?  Soon there will be cries from every direction that Buffalo ought to replace its convention center with a bigger and better model.  To not do so would be leaving money on the table, right?  How is Buffalo going to compete for all the lucrative convention business that seems to be revitalizing just about every other city?

Well, first off, conventions aren't as lucrative as many people think.  This interesting Brookings Institute Report offers a glimpse at the harsh realities of convention center economics.  The report is several years old, but its points are still salient.  Convention business is fierce.  While many cities have spent enormous sums on massive enlargements of their convention centers, convention attendance hasn't kept pace and the metrics of attendee spending are unclear.

Further, being a smaller city, Buffalo would be hard-pressed to come up with the funds to build a competitive convention center.  For instance, Pittsburgh, with a metropolitan population just twice as large as Buffalo, has a new convention center more than 14 times as large as Buffalo's.

"Your Convention Center did not meet the expectations of the site selection committee and did not measure up to the level of convention centers visited in the other cities," she wrote. "There was also concern from the site selection committee regarding the abundance of vacant storefronts surrounding the Convention Center and the host hotel."

- Beth Hecquet, National Association of Sports Commissions director of meetings and events

If Buffalo wants to compete in this market, it needs to think smarter.  It needs to do something far outside the box.  My suggestion would be to tear down the convention center and don't replace it.  For starters, it's almost laughably small; roughly the size of a typical Walmart.  It's not a unique space and there's no need to overreact and build some expensive, glittering architectural achievement to replace it. 

CCsouth.bmpBuffalo already has countless large, underutilized spaces that would provide a unique alternative to the typical convention center and provide more than enough space.  This thought came to me when I was in town for the National Trust Conference.  Hundreds, if not thousands, of people came for the conference, but in my conversations with attendees, I found that few were able to break away from the convention for more than brief glimpses of Buffalo's amazing neighborhoods. 

At one point, I walked up Elmwood from downtown past countless interesting restaurants and businesses (not to mention six nearby hotels) and sat alone in the amazing interior of the Karpeles Manuscript Museum with the knowledge that just a mile south, convention sessions were being conducted in the small, windowless rooms within Buffalo's concrete bunker of convention center.

Karpeles is just one of countless spaces that could be used for exhibition or meeting space.  Imagine what a unique experience it would be to hold a convention in the Connecticut Street Armory or one of Buffalo's grand hotel ballrooms or the Central Terminal or Shea's or the Richardson Complex or any number of Buffalo's amazing churches.  The visitor's bureau could refocus all the money and effort it spends on maintaining the outdated convention center to coordinating shuttles between these various facilities, becoming a central booking agency for all of these private spaces, and offering grant assistance to the caretakers of participating facilities.  That's an approach that would offer a truly unique convention experience, one where people really saw and experienced the city.  It would also set Buffalo apart from all the cities that follow the traditional route of building expensive, banal convention pods. 

I say, rather than competing simply on the basis of convention facilities and downtown vitality, let's allow Buffalo to compete as a unique city with countless interesting gathering spaces and many lively, unique neighborhoods.  Don't fall prey to the faulty economics of big, shiny, single-use convention pods.

CCDSC_0850.JPG

Aerials from Bing Maps

Nicholas Miller graduated from the Ohio State University with a B.A. in Urban Geography and Economics in 2010.  He currently lives in Detroit with his partner where he works in the GIS field.

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Six hotels while walking Elmwood, eh? Though I get your point and actually like it, I'm not sure the practicality. A coordinated army of shuttles still doesn't satisfy what the group was looking for: a walkable, hospitable area. Of course, a region not drowned by sprawl and a reasonable transit system would mitigate that problem somewhat. But alas...
I like your idea. It's what the BNCVB ought to build marketing on: why we're different. Because we're not going to compete with even mid-sized cities like Pitt, Nash, et al.
Also the Armory is at the mercy of the National Guard and Reserve.

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For the National Trust Conference, many shuttles were provided for attendees to go to all kinds of places, including the Connecticut Street Armory and the Darwin Martin House. They also held some events at Kleinhans, Shea's and The Colored Musician's Club, so providing shuttles and coordinating third-party facilities is something the convention bureau is already familiar with doing. However, most of the sessions were held in the dingy session rooms of the Convention Center. There are so many amazing, unique spaces downtown and around the city, there's just no need to maintain this publicly-owned space and I do think the Convention Center is holding back the street life of downtown. I think returning the radial street grid and erecting some mixed-use buildings on the convention center's site would dovetail tremendously with all the progress happening downtown. Let the Lafayette, Avant, Statler and AMA's provide the big gathering spaces, but I'm starting to ramble. . .

replied to LouisTully
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Couple of thoughts:

1. We need a convention center. A lot of the business is actually for local conventions. The size is fine for local stuff, and no one care if Main St isn't vibrant -- these conventions just pull from the WNY region anyway.

2. On the other hand, how much public money is used to operate and market the center? How much revenue does it actually bring in? I'll bet it's a wash. If so, then we really don't need it. It doesn't add much to the local economy. The main beneficiaries are the hotels.

3. Most conventions are pretty, well, conventional. They want all activities in one place. Having meetings around town is a logistical nightmare, and few organizers would want that. It also drives up their costs. It may appeal to a very limited number, and it's fine to promote that, but think of it as frosting on the economic cake.

4. If the lack of a vibrant Main St. helped kill this deal, then the convention center should screaming up and down that we should no longer demolish buildings in favor of parking lots.

5. Although the report didn't say it, I'm sure the number of panhandlers and homeless within walking distance didn't make much appeal either. Until the city tackles this issue and the dead Main Street issue, forget about trying to attract major meetings.

6. Which means that the City must have a plan. An overall comprehensive plan for downtown. There isn't one, and normally I don't like plans. By Plan, I mean a realization that all the problems of downtown are interconnected, as are all the opportunities. It's great to have a new courthouse, and that solved one problem, but didn't address anything else.

If we want a thriving downtown, we must make it safe, convenient, lively, and attractive. By attractive I mean not just that litter get picked up and we have treelined streets, but that we have activities, such as shopping and entertainment, that attracts people.

The issue of the convention center cannot be discussed in isolation. It must be part of a larger plan of what do we want from our downtown. It thrived for about 170 years without a convention center, and has been pretty lousy every since it was built, so we know that it is not a crucial element to downtown's success. What is? There is no one answer to that question, but the answer is the Plan we need.

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I don't disagree that there needs to be a comprehensive plan. I think most local stuff could be handled in Hotel Ballrooms, the Connecticut Street Armory or even a repurposed AMA's. Then people would have choices, too. I also think this building is a blight on downtown.

Does it serve a purpose? Yes. Is it also redundant? Yes, there are other properties you probably have a lot more affection for that have trouble generating business because they're competing with the convention center.

replied to Rand503
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Nicholas -- how many conventions have you attended, specifically as a vendor or participant?

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Back when I was in college, I sold insurance for a while and during that time I attended four or five conventions as a vendor with a booth. In the past six months I've attended two conventions as a participant. I've also gone to a few home and garden shows over the years. I've also gone to several political and fundraising events held in convention space.

replied to BrianWhite
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I did 14 last year and I've already done 2 this year. I've never once been to one where events were held in "multiple spaces." If I was told that my meetings were in four different places -- I'd flip my lid.

Try again, kid.

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We have a very comprehensive strategic plan, it's called the Queen City Hub, one thing it calls for is reestablishing Genesee Street, which leads through the Convention Center. And if the building was gone I have a strong suspicion that places like the Staler and the Lafayette Hotel, plus public spaces like ECC could pick up the slack. And my personal opinion, this is the one building in Buffalo I'd approve replacing with a parking lot.

replied to Rand503
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rand503 said:

"4. If the lack of a vibrant Main St. helped kill this deal, then the convention center should screaming up and down that we should no longer demolish buildings in favor of parking lots."

best comment of the entire dialogue!

replied to Rand503
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Couple of thoughts:

1. We need a convention center. A lot of the business is actually for local conventions. The size is fine for local stuff, and no one care if Main St isn't vibrant -- these conventions just pull from the WNY region anyway.

2. On the other hand, how much public money is used to operate and market the center? How much revenue does it actually bring in? I'll bet it's a wash. If so, then we really don't need it. It doesn't add much to the local economy. The main beneficiaries are the hotels.

3. Most conventions are pretty, well, conventional. They want all activities in one place. Having meetings around town is a logistical nightmare, and few organizers would want that. It also drives up their costs. It may appeal to a very limited number, and it's fine to promote that, but think of it as frosting on the economic cake.

4. If the lack of a vibrant Main St. helped kill this deal, then the convention center should screaming up and down that we should no longer demolish buildings in favor of parking lots.

5. Although the report didn't say it, I'm sure the number of panhandlers and homeless within walking distance didn't make much appeal either. Until the city tackles this issue and the dead Main Street issue, forget about trying to attract major meetings.

6. Which means that the City must have a plan. An overall comprehensive plan for downtown. There isn't one, and normally I don't like plans. By Plan, I mean a realization that all the problems of downtown are interconnected, as are all the opportunities. It's great to have a new courthouse, and that solved one problem, but didn't address anything else.

If we want a thriving downtown, we must make it safe, convenient, lively, and attractive. By attractive I mean not just that litter get picked up and we have treelined streets, but that we have activities, such as shopping and entertainment, that attracts people.

The issue of the convention center cannot be discussed in isolation. It must be part of a larger plan of what do we want from our downtown. It thrived for about 170 years without a convention center, and has been pretty lousy every since it was built, so we know that it is not a crucial element to downtown's success. What is? There is no one answer to that question, but the answer is the Plan we need.

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I agree. What a good point. It's so clear that the convention center needs to go. It's ugly, small and really mucks up a great radial street plan. It also obscures the front/main entrance to the Genesee Building. I always thought though that we needed to wait until we got the hundreds of millions to replace it down in the cobblestone area, but your idea has merit. However, I think replacing it with a small inexpensive better located and utilized space would be better than nothing. Tying into the D&L terminal for example might be a good fit. There is a lot of space upstairs and it is very unique building with nice views. We could build on those empty parking lots and connect to the terminal. I really like the idea of building it smaller, cheaper and making it vital, but not trying to compete with the giant starship convention centers of other cities. Lets face it buffalo just couldn't compete in that arena anyway.

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Sorry I meant the old YMCA building, not the Genesee Building.

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Besides being turned down because of the Convention Center, we also got heat for the lack of business and vibe on Main Street....Face it, we don't have a vibrant downtown. We don't have people from the burbs and beyond coming downtown daily, 'just for something to do'. We don't have much to offer- cool retail (large, small, unique, and national), our only downtown mall pretty much sucks, our theater district is a ghost town with little to zero excitement when it comes to 'Theatre District' (no retail, no theme restaurants, no street performers, no vendors, no entertainment besides a few theaters that only operate a few nights of the week through out the year), we have bums and drug addicts occupying Main St. from Huron to Church St. and Lafayette Square (not exactly a warm and fuzzy welcome for anyone visiting downtown). Most hours of the day and especially weekends it's still pretty quiet downtown. We need to work on an over all plan to make downtown a FUN DESTINATION where people want to be no matter day, time or month. If your a first time visitor staying downtown and after walking around what I just described, what would your impression of Buffalo be?

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Great points. I also pretty much agree wholeheartedely with Nicholas' argument.

While I'd like to see the city and BNCVB find a way to create a newer space, it wouldn't be a bad idea to direct focus elsewhere.

I really think Lego hits the nail on the head, however. With a lack of things to do, it is next to impossible to bring people from the suburbs downtown. The city is not yet a destination. Whether you're referring to Canalside, the Theatre District or elsewhere. There are pockets of great attractions, but nothing to properly draw and keep people in the city. Different types of retail, bars/restaurants and other attractions are needed to help lead the DT renaissance.

replied to Lego1981
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Wouldn't Lego's description also apply to most if not all all downtowns of cities/metros near Buffalo's size in the northern U.S.?
Do downtowns in any of the following have as much retail activity, street performers, theme restaurants, and things to do as Lego wants to see here and accurately says Buffalo's doesn't have?
(Just asking.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population
"66 Toledo Ohio 287,208
67 Saint Paul Minnesota 285,068
68 Newark New Jersey 277,140
70 Buffalo New York 261,310
74 Fort Wayne Indiana 253,691
75 Jersey City New Jersey 247,597
82 Madison Wisconsin 233,209
98 Rochester New York 210,565
110 Akron Ohio 199,110
115 Yonkers New York 195,976
124 Grand Rapids Michigan 188,040
127 Worcester Massachusetts 181,045
131 Providence Rhode Island 178,042"

replied to Lego1981
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Those are municipal populations, not metro populations. I prefer urban area populations. If you go by urban population, Buffalo's peer cities are Columbus, Providence and New Orleans.

replied to whatever
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Correct. The metro areas are a much better reflection of the size of a locality given that some metros employ more contemporary forms of metropolitan government. The municipal figures fit better into Whatever's ongoing narrative of civic malaise hence the list, which has been brought into conversations repeatedly even when its relevance is questionable.

I'll just add that you don't have to look outside our region to see what can correct Lego's issue of vacant storefronts. Places like Elmwood, Allen, Hertel, as well as several other Main Streets in older towns ans villages offer vibrant pedestrian oriented commercial districts partly because of their design and proximity to population. Bringing residential back downtown will do a lot to correct the vacancy issue.

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Nicholas - First, keep in mind I was responding to Lego's comment, not moving the goal post at all from what he wrote.
Second, the urban area list you linked uses 2000 Census. With our 2010 drop compared to some other places, the ordering might look a bit different now.

But okay, let's use that urban area list you linked anyway for this. It's good enough, and none of this is science. (btw, Kettle, at least this once, I won't be baited into your goofy witch hunts about alleged 'narratives'.)

So anyhow, Nicholas, since I was asking about northern places, New Orleans doesn't meet that. Providence was in my list also. Let's keep that and drop all others I'd listed. Columbus is a good addition, sure.

To expand the peer group a bit, instead of going only up on the list for Prov & Columbus, let's also add a few places down to Rochester. I think many people consider Roch our peer. That adds back in Dayton and Bridgeport (having 2000 urban pops in between ours and Roch's). To balance for same # of areas bigger and smaller, let's go up that same list to add Indy and Milwaukee, then look at Lego's comment again.
32 Milwaukee, WI 1,308,913
33 Indianapolis, IN 1,218,919
34 Providence, RI 1,174,548
36 Columbus, OH 1,133,193
38 Buffalo, NY 976,703
41 Bridgeport-Stamford, CT 888,890
45 Hartford, CT 851,535
52 Dayton, OH 703,444
53 Rochester, NY 694,396

Ok, so if I did that without mistake, there's the 8 northern peer areas closest to us in urban pop as of 2000, the 4 next-bigger and 4 next-smaller.
How many of those 8 other areas have downtowns which meet the Lego comment's goal post for Buffalo?
Lego>"We don't have much to offer- cool retail (large, small, unique, and national), our only downtown mall pretty much sucks, our theater district is a ghost town with little to zero excitement when it comes to 'Theatre District' (no retail, no theme restaurants, no street performers, no vendors, no entertainment besides a few theaters that only operate a few nights of the week through out the year), "
whatever>"Do downtowns in any of the following have as much retail activity, street performers, theme restaurants, and things to do as Lego wants to see here and accurately says Buffalo's doesn't have? (Just asking.)"

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Gaylord Convention Hotels have about 5 time the meeting space as the Buffalo Convention Center. If Buffalo were ever to get rid of the old center it would probably make more sense to attract a company of this nature rather than build a new one on their own.

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i wouldn't mind getting an architectural achievement once in a while. but what we get now are merely architectural statements. big difference.

one of the unrecognized tragedies of the present convention center is that it destroyed more economic activity and street life than it generated. it was a serious net loss for downtown by any measurement.

the only way i wouldn't oppose a new convention center is if it was built on vacant land.

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Buffalo shouldn't be on the convention business. Wasting money on a convention center to compete with Vegas, Orlando, San Diego, etc is a waste of time unless you're ok with the Annual Convention of Ventriloquists. Buffalo can't be everything to everyone and a convention center is about as wasteful an idea as I've heard. Even competing with other cold weather cities would be near impossible. NYC, Boston, and Chicago are way better choices as regions. Entities that have conventions want them in major metros.

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I'd love to see the 'concrete bunker' exterior covered with 'living walls'--check out Patrick Blanc's creations--as well as a living roof. The entire building could be transformed into a living work of art.

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Oh, and then adaptively reuse the building. I agree with buffalofalling--we should be out of the convention game.

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Buffalo should be in the Convention Center business! Although not in the mega sized market that other cities are competing in. Buffalo would be great at competing in the small and medium sized conventions however the current space (while recently updated) is obsolete. While the argument can be made for trying to utilize other commercial space existing downtown, they do not offer the features that convention organizers are looking for. Plus, in order to get more "excitement", as in restaurants, etc. they would be best used as mix use projects encouraging high density housing. That is what will attract more business' downtown; a population to cater too. Buffalo is also an incredibly cheap destination, putting us in a better position to compete in than more expensive cities. I respectfully disagree with the posting and would support a modest expansion of the convention center to compete for more convention business.

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I don't know, I'm a big fan of Henry Ford's saying: "If I had asked people want they wanted, they would have asked for a faster horse." Sometimes you have to think beyond your consumer and ask yourself if there's a totally different way of fulfilling their needs. Most convention planners are looking for one big space that can hold everything, but Buffalo could differentiate itself by providing a one-stop shop for booking and coordinating spaces around the city for convention planners. It's a more complicated approach on some levels, but complexity can sometime be rewarding. For people who go from convention to convention and spend most of their time in sterile convention halls and cloned hotels, it might be a refreshing change of pace to go to a convention held in grand hotels and reclaimed space. Is there a risk that this approach could fail? Of course, but often greater risks offer greater potential for reward.

replied to SenecaFire
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A convention at the Central Terminal? That's insane. If people thought the "neighborhood" around the convention center was bad, I'd like to hear their thoughts on the neighborhood around the Central Terminal.

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Probably for most conventions, people wouldn't go for it, but if you got the right group they might overlook the surrounding neighborhood and just find the idea 'cool.' I can definitely imagine the National Trust folks going for it. Maybe some more regional conventions would be interested in the idea. It could be a fun change of pace one year for some folks.

This is the thing though, if you start viewing all these big spaces as possible convention spaces, then consumers have choices. They can make the decisions themselves and it doesn't cost the government anything to offer all these choices. In a way, you're able to offer more for less. The convention bureau would have all these spaces to market, the Armory, the Statler, the Lafayette, the Richardson Complex, Shea's, Kleinhans, the Central Terminal and maybe AM&A's or even the Broadway Barns. It's no longer a one-size-fits-all proposition. We're offering a variety of of neighborhoods, a variety of spaces and a variety of overall experiences to conventioneers. I think that sounds like an award-winning approach that other cities would try to replicate, but maybe I'm wrong.

Love this. The convention center must go. I was disappointed when they spent money on this facility a few years back. The building is 100% terrible. That new sign was just some expensive lipstick for the pig. This article is good advice.

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1. That Brookings Institute report on convention centers is pure gold. An absolute must read for anyone who ever advocates for a new center. I've referenced it, as have others, in previous convention center discussions. If you are one of those who think we need a bigger, better center: do yourself a favor and read the report. It is eye opening. New convention centers are money pits.

2. But since we've already got a center, long ago bought and paid for, one which does have some decent functionality to it . . . getting rid of our existing center makes little sense to me.

It may not be big enough for lots of business (and we don't have hotel capacity for many chunks of business even if we could get more outsiders to fathom spending their convention days in Buffalo), but it nevertheless does function and does bring in some business.

Besides, now that the Statler is in the hands of someone with ambitions for it, it's possible that one could be connected to the other, possibly even expanding the convention center (if an economic case can be credibly made) over Franklin Street (at far less cost than building a whole new center).

At this point, it ain't broke, even if it can't do all we want it to. So why tear it down?

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I'd tear it down because it's a blight and a drain on resources. Would you rather pay for the upkeep of this redundant concrete box or provide grants to the Statler, AMA's or even the Central Terminal. This lot could be prime real estate for new mixed-use development.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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I doubt tearing this down would spur any development. The only positives I could see would be restoring a part of the radial grid, revealing the beauty of the YMCA building, and, um, extra parking. Let's be honest.

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This is NOT redundant. There is no comparable space. AM&A's?? You're kidding, right? Let me explain something about construction: posts and pillars plus low ceilings are no nos for ballrooms or convention floors. Central Terminal?? Who will go there??? The Statler? again, you're joking, right? Because they have one, count them, one ballroom which is a small fraction of the space of the convention center. You very obviously have zero experience in the field.

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Seriously, the convention center is small. There are probably Walmart Superstores in the suburbs that offer bigger spaces and how many conventions even use the entire exhibition floor of the convention center? To top it off, regardless of the Convention Center's size, it's clearly not a space where people even want to hold a convention.

The other side of this is whether the convention center is holding back downtown generally. And it probably is. Who would want to live near that thing? The best approach to building downtown's vibrancy is to increase the residential population. Tearing down this building wouldn't be a panacea for all of Downtown's woes, but it could be a good start. Particularly if it allows private developers to include convention space in their programming plan and financial plans when rehabbing buildings. Imagine if the business that currently goes to the Convention center were refocused toward the Statler and AM&A's. That's money that could allow residential conversions to take place and bring more consumers for shops and businesses downtown.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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I feel about the convention center like I do about the Metro Rail and the govt-owned football stadium, in that I wouldn't have favored public $ to build any of those in the first place, but now that they're here (maybe consistent with Bini's point 2 about the cc), perhaps best to keep each until they become unusable - and I'd add a condition of making sure users pay as directly as possible for any public 'resources' which Nicholas refers to).

For the stadium, it should be simple to just add surcharges on tickets to fund operations and upgrades. I don't know if that approach could work for the convention center, but maybe it could (surcharges for evens like disco, auto show, conventions, etc). I don't see why everybody who stays in a hotel in Erie Co should be bed-taxed to in any way help fund a govt-owned convention center which I'd bet most of them never even step foot in.

If there were serious private sector interest in buying the cc's land (or even the building) for something, I'd be open to land sale with or without demo at any time. However, I think if anybody is saying to hurry a demo of cc as soon as possible because they assume some future unknown mixed development would be built there any time soon, that part sounds like wishful thinking.

The private-sector convention facility idea mentioned by saltecs, lantan1, and some others sounds good (minus any corp welfare) if Gaylord or a similar company wants to build one anywhere they might want to in the city or region.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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Nothing against the convention and visitors bureau, they do a great job. I just had a sinking feeling when they pumped in all that money into renovations. That could have been seed money for a new center.

That building has to go. Build something new! Over by the Casino skeleton!

Don't feel so bad. The governor wants to scrap the Jacob Javits center for a convention center in Queens. They are just finishing extensive renovations as well.

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tear it down

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Please dismantle the convention center and move it to Norcross, GA.

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Ha! That's gold!

replied to RaChaCha
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Turn it into an Ikea

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Build a new Convention Center on the Webster's Block (Walking distance from the Saber's Stadium, Canal Side and soon to be Casino)

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The idea to move the convention center's location drastically is comical. Over by the Casino? Cobblestone? Larkin District? Honestly? The aforementioned are sorely lacking in infrastructure, not to mention, building off the complaint of the amateur convention, vacant structures and a general lack to do in all those places. How about hotels? Where are people going to stay over there? The best bet would be in the vicinity it's currently in. M&T lot on Washington? What's the practicality/feasibility of converting Main Place? Not like it's bustling in it's current state. Pretty hideous building that also destroyed the street grid, but combines two blemishes into one.

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See this is where I disagree. We have something that we underutilized greatly...our waterfront. The current convention center is surrounded by a whole lot of nothing. There maybe awesome buildings with crazy potential but honestly there isn't much for a person to do and that is what is taking away these conventions from Buffalo. The NFTA is currently trying to sell the parcel of land adjacent to the SBH. In my opinion, the property should be sold to the city for 1 dollar. A ten year plan should be devised including: 1)finish extending the main st. bridge to the outer harbor. 2) site developing in including the master plan of the convention center(cost split by erie county and the city...using their "rainy day funds" as the down payment, and 3) preparing adjacent space for hotel/boardwalk area. Within 10-12 years there should be a brand new much larger convention center with an attached hotel.

I know I'm going to get those....taking people away from down town folks... but listen we have a beautiful greatly underused waterfront that within a mile of the current disappointing convention center. Let's just admit we need something "bigger, better, and more expensive" for once, and lets start getting these things done. We aren't even considered for many larger conventions and its not because of it being in Buffalo.... its because our infrastructure is terrible. Infrastructure is the key to success. Build a beautiful new convention center/Hotel attachment and they will come.....

replied to LouisTully
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A comic convention would be cool. (if properly marketed)

It is actually a very sensibly sleek and modern design.


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We definitely don't need to spend tons of money on a new convention center. That would be a huge waste.

The obvious solution, I think, would be to build a skybridge across Franklin Street and renovate the top 15 floors of the Statler as meeting rooms. Then, gut the entire existing Convention Center and turn it into a huge open hall for the vendor floor. This would also give meetings access to the ballroom, club, bar, etc. at the Statler. If you don't need all the floors in the Statler for meeting rooms, then some could be hotel rooms for a small boutique hotel.

In other words, most of the space we need for larger conventions is already there. We just need to utilize it better.

As for downtown vitality, hopefully this will convince the city to spend more money and effort on it. Downtown is well on its way to being a destination again, and I think that will happen within a decade or two, but it could happen a lot faster if the city invested more in it in small ways beyond the Cars on Main Street project. A good start would be spending $500,000 to fix up the Rose Nails and Texas Red Hots facades at Main & Genesee that Channel 2 loves to exhibit as "the blight of downtown Buffalo."

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Re: turning the Statler into convention space:

Sorry, folks. It's impossible. You can add to the Statler, yes. You could put an additional floor over parts of the first floor, and that new addition could function as convention space. But it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to simply gut the Statler and open up its first floor for convention space. Reason: pillars!! lots and lots of posts and pillars. (plus other inconveniences, like elevators, hallways, physical size, low ceilings, etc.)

replied to laldm
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The Statler already has 5 large, pillar-less ballrooms. What it needs is meeting space, which could be offered on higher floors.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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Well, win some lose some. They tried for the convention didn't get it, but good for the bureau, they at least tried. There will be others. In the meantime downtown Buffalo continues to improve and when main street is redone , the whole thing will look a lot better. Other cities get turned down for conventions. Not the end of the world. Bini made a good point. Its bought , paid for, and makes no economic sense to just tear it down. It is ugly and out of place but it's still good for a few more dollars.

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Yeah, Main Street may look better and include a few parking spaces, but what is the over-all plan to get those empty spaces filled in and make Main Street a 'Destination' again? They told us in the early 80's, 'Main Street will look alot better once the rail opens' and look what happend. New street with no plan to keep business and people to keep coming back. That is something we need to work on NOW before we spend millions re-open this block. Otherwise we end up with a shared street and still have empty storefronts. If traffic was the 'only' issue, then why do we have a vacant storefronts along Delaware Ave? No retailers on Chippewa? ect?

replied to saltecks
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Actually, there was a lot of criticism of the transit mall design even before it opened. I recall it being referred to as little pieces of junk. You see, at the time, not everybody drank the Kool-Aid.

replied to Lego1981
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Actually, there was a lot of criticism of the transit mall design even before it opened. I recall it being referred to as little pieces of junk. You see, at the time, not everybody drank the Kool-Aid.

replied to Lego1981
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There is also a proposal floating around for a sales tax free zone downtown. That's one idea. But then again you could be right, and optimism , no matter how restrained, is out of place.

replied to Lego1981
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lego>" If traffic was the 'only' issue, then why do we have a vacant storefronts along Delaware Ave? No retailers on Chippewa? ect?"

I don't know if anybody said lack of car access is the 'only issue', but for major streets like Main lack of car access is a big negative. If the no-car thing had been done back then on Delaware instead of Main, there would now be more vacancies on Delaware and fewer on Main. Can't prove it without a parallel universe to experiment on, so we can only guess.

I'd say removing the pedestrian mall mistake and allowing car access will really help reduce downtown Main's high vacancy level. Anticipation of it might already be helping. But it won't be a silver bullet that hugely increases demand from customers, tenants, developers, etc. to cause a lot of national retail, etc.

The sales-tax free idea for downtown referred to by saltecs sounds in many ways bad, impractical, and maybe even illegal unless sales tax laws had major changes at state and county levels - which aren't likely.

replied to Lego1981
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so home come the cities with the economies and demographics most like ours (rochester, syracuse, utica) have main streets with just as much vacancy as ours, when they've always had cars on main street?

replied to whatever
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Then on the other hand you could look at other cities which had a robust downtown, and where they put in a transit mall retail suffered. Philadelphia was an uncanny parallel to Buffalo.

The Chestnut Street Transway was intended to reconfigure Center City's Chestnut Street into a trolley bound, pedestrian promenade...In 1976, Chestnut Street was closed to traffic between 8th Street and 18th Street to develop what was being called The Chestnut Street Transitway.

Immediately after construction began Chestnut Street began to decline. A bustling retail corridor well into the 1970s, upscale shops began closing, moving to Walnut Street, or leaving the city all together.

Like a mall, the Transitway took life from the street. "

Traffic was returned to the street. the area is being rapidly gentrified with the arrival of many upscale national brands. Esp furniture.

replied to grad94
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grad, to answer your ? about Rochester and Syracuse, perhaps it's a matter of degree of vacancy on a major block of a major street.
I haven't counted, but if this is correct, 9 out of 14 buildings in Main Street's 500 block are vacant.
"Currently, 9 of the 14 properties on the 500 Block have vacant or empty storefronts, although a couple of those do have tenants on the upper floors."
That's over 64%, which seems much higher vacancy than downtown parts of Delaware Ave has. Still, nobody could scientifically prove that's at all affected by Delaware Ave allowing cars and Main St's 500 block not.

In Rochester & Syracuse, do any similarly located blocks in downtown have at or near that much vacancy? I'm not saying they don't, I'm asking. If you want to reply with what you think are similar comparable blocks of Roch or Syr, I'd be interested to learn. I've been to downtown Roch a few times and didn't think vacancy was as much, but it could be I wasn't on a block you're thinking of there.
(I don't think Utica is of similar enough size to Buffalo to compare either way.)

Just so I understand what your view is -
Do you think if lack of car access as downtown Main St happened in a few downtown blocks of Delaware Ave, that storefront vacancies wouldn't grow in those within a few years?
Or outside of downtown, if car access was banned on say Allen St, or a few blocks of Elmwood in EV, or a block or two of Hertel near Colvin? Vacancy wouldn't grow, you wouldn't predict?

replied to grad94
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The concept of building a new convention center in Buffalo is laughable and a waste. It is actually in a fine location, relative to hotels and dining (at least fine for what Buffalo offers might be more fair). There is one big step, although not insignificant, that could be taken to get the existing center expanded and in fine shape. At most urban CCs, the parking and loading docks are actually raised above street level. That allows the trucks to be hidden and also to unlock the CC to street level. Here an entire city block is lost for the CC loading dock. If we could engineer a roof reinforcement that could allow trucks and deliveries to happen on the roof of the facility with ramps off of Pearl or Franklin, the CC could be expanded by reusing the loading dock and actually opening opening up the Pearl St side to windows and street level access. If we could do it and expand over the street to the Statler, even better, but moving the loading dock is an easy but not inexpensive move that could make a huge difference. Lastly, to open up space to be better used on the Franflin side, I would move the main entrance to a small addition/atrium entry on Court St where that sad stairway is now. That would make the center more usable and accessible. And Nicolas, I loved your posts on transit and you have great ideas, but hot having a center at all is crazy. You can't have an auto show or a home and garden show or anything requiring significant plates at the venues you mention and right now those are the only events we have!

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You do raise a good point with whether the floor plates in other buildings could carry heavy loads from auto exhibitions and such. Cars would be a stretch for most buildings, but other than that I think most building would do fine.

There's so much unused space downtown that could serve as session or exhibition space, it makes no sense to me maintaining a building that most people would consider a blight while buildings people love struggle to find programming.

replied to billbooze
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you have no clue about what constitutes convention floor space. Look up the phrase 'clear span'. It refers to unobstructed space. No posts. No pillars. Now tell us all again exactly which spaces downtown have any of that. How wide? How long? How high? Name one single space! There aren't any! Get educated about what functions and what doesn't!

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I don't see why posts are such a big issue for exhibition space. The Merchandise Mart in Chicago is a permanent exhibition space and it has frequent posts. It's built just like any other steel frame building from that era. A department store is really an exhibition space of a different kind, which is why AMA's might serve as a good replacement for the current convention center.

Also, I'm basically suggesting that hotel ballrooms could serve for most exhibitions and they have no posts. The exhibition space in the Convention Center is small. It's like 65,000 square feet of space. If my memory serves, they didn't even use the entire exhibition floor during the National Trust Convention. We're honestly talking about a space the size of a typical grocery store. We're not talking about substituting McCormick Place here. This is why I think the Convention Center is redundant and a bad place to allocate resources. If you added up all the space in the Statler Ballrooms, it would probably be about the same amount of space that's found in the Convention Center. You're reacting like it offers some vast space that no other place in town can offer.

I also make no claim to be a convention expert. I just think a diversified approach to conventions that relies on privately managed spaces may be a unique, cost-effective and competitive strategy for handling and attracting conventions.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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we had it and we tore it down: memorial auditorium. stupid, stupid, stupid.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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If we're not going to build a new convention center, then it doesn't make much sense to tear down the one we already have.

Would the National Trust conference have even come here if we didn't have a convention center? It would make more sense to see how much $$$ is brought into the area from the conventions we already have. How successful would our downtown hotels be without a convention center? These are important details that seem to be overlooked.

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I'm sure they would have. The national trust folks would have loved to hold their meetings in the Statler or the Lafayette and have their exhibition space in the Connecticut Street Armory or the Central Terminal. They would have LOVED that concept. They all gladly walked up to Shea's and Kleinhans for a couple of events and took shuttles out to places like the Darwin Martin House.

replied to 300miles
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It is obvious that you have never helped plan a convention or conference. One of the major sources of funding that is used to put on an event of this type is sponsors who have displays or tables. These sponsors require a space where all the attendees are or will be. Eliminating a central gathering space would limit the value of sponsorship and limit the ability to put on conventions and conferences.

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I get that exhibition space is a lucrative component of most conventions, but the exhibition space provided by the Convention Center is so small that it could easily be substituted in remodels of AM&A's or by new mixed use buildings. For many conferences, a hotel ballroom would probably suffice as the exhibition space, so conventions could be held in their entirety at the Statler. I would also be interested to know how many conventions even fill the convention center's entire exhibition floor. The National Trust Conference didn't.

Therefore, here's my line of thought: The current convention center isn't anywhere near the size it would need to be to hold large trade shows and I think it would be unwise for the region to spend the money needed to build such a facility and try to compete for that business. However, the current facility is so small and outdated that in my eyes it serves only as a redundant competitor with private hotel facilities and other civic spaces. Therefore, it seems silly to keep it or spend any money to upgrade it. Tear it down and follow a different strategy.

replied to ladyplanner
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I think suggesting knocking this building down with no true alternative is short sited. I cannot find the exact info online but I can remember reading when they renovated it a few years back that the building is used 250+ days a year. While small and outdated it still serves a purpose, sort of like an old paid off car.

I think what you would really be looking at if you tore down the existing facility and didn't replace it is more events outside of downtown, agri center etc. Counter productive.

While I don't disagree that the blocking of genessee st. is a shame, I do not share the disdain for the building many do. This archetecture is not revered by the masses some call it ugly. I don't see it as any less relevant in the evolution of design and should be torn down just because.

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We can debate aesthetics, but in terms of urban functionality and form, I think we can agree that the convention center is awful. It offers nothing but blank walls. In the heart of downtown, streets should be lined with businesses and restaurants, not endless blank walls.

Incidentally, private developers have given us an alternative. We have hotel ballrooms and conference centers right downtown, to say nothing of all the facilities across the city. This facility is honestly redundant at this point.

If you read the Brookings Institute Report, you'll come to realize that convention centers are a silly notion. They're just a publicly funded substitute for hotel ballrooms and other civic spaces. We need to be more efficient with existing resources.

replied to sobuffbillsfan
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re: 'convention centers are a silly notion, per the Brooking Report'

No, that's not what the Brookings Report says. What it does say is that the arms race of building ever bigger convention centers chasing diminishing convention business is a losing proposition. That doesn't mean there's no business to be had by secondary cities like Buffalo. It means the business is limited. It advises not to throw boatloads of money chasing that business. Sound advice. But our money is long ago spent, and what we put into the existing facility for remodeling every decade or so is pennies compared to the cost of erecting a building from scratch. The center DOES bring in business. A bigger, shinier, newer center? Bad investment. Nursing ours along? Sound investment. There is absolutely no comparable space anywhere in Buffalo. Period. The Adam's Mark, the nearest facility with somewhat comparable spaces, doesn't match it.

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I never said that the Brookings Report explicitly said convention centers were silly, that's the realization I believe others will come to after reading the report and reflecting on all the other large gathering spaces that exist throughout the city. I think people will realize that a large space is a large space. Building a single-use convention center seems pretty silly when we already have hotels with multiple large ballrooms, private conference centers, auditoriums, other large civic spaces, and even privately owned convention centers. At that point, it seems pretty silly for the government to spend any money to build or maintain a 'convention center.'

replied to biniszkiewicz
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A great idea..but not desirable nor functional. Regardless of the quality of spaces available around the city, conventioneers on business DO NOT want to spend their time being shuttle around to a variety of spaces across town. In the convention business..its one stop shopping for the most part. You go to what you have to go to...and skip what's not interesting to spend some time in the city you're in. I can see why a sports related convention passed us over...I'm unaware of exactly what they are..but to start off where exactly is there a sports bar within walking distance of the Convention center? WE DON'T EVEN HAVE A SPORTS BAR DOWNTOWN...and wonder why we didn't win their business?

I'd imagine it was built in that location for a specific reason that made sense at the time. Main Street was a different place and had some life left to it..gotcha...add it the train..the death of downtown..and our reputation and this is what you get.

Public/private is the way to go...public convention centers are a drain on everyone. The city/county should put up seed money and offer to finance half the construction costs of a larger/newer facility elsewhere. Bring in SMG or Gaylord to run the operation and return the CVB to its original purpose...selling the area and what it has to offer to the rest of the world and not just selling the Hyatt. This will be tough in that if anything were to ever change Paul Snyders hands would have to be pulled from the organzation and the Hyatt would have to be out on its own...sink or swin.

A large public private facility in the HSBC areana area would fit...every large city has a campus of buildings like that. Hell has anyone approached the Seneca's about it? You'd have the casino, the harbor front, numerous parks, the Naval Museum..ice skating..a public market..and a convention center within walking distance of eachother and a short walk/train ride Downtown!!!

We're overlooked as a destination because we lack the basics in the hospitality/convention business. Its time for a new facility and change in the way business is done. There are opportuities for Buffalo to grow from small conventions to medium and large scale conventions as well. We're a cheap date..with the appropriate infrastructure Buffalo could compete with Columbus, Pittsburgh, Cleveland etc..and could even pull business from San Diego, Orlando, Vegas etc with the new attention thats being put on bailouts and cost and glamour. Think about it..

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What's the point of even attracting conventions if you're going to herd all the attendees into some faux city that's been built to entertain them? I'm not saying that people should hold a convention in facilities that are miles and miles apart, most conventions would probably find enough space between downtown ballrooms. Private entities would also build facilities to fill the void over time. For conventions with particular needs, you could start looking to facilities just beyond downtown and provide shuttles.

Also a new facility would cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Would you rather build new or rely on the infrastructure that's already in place and isn't being utilized to its fullest potential?

replied to Buffalo All Star
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While I agree that most all of your post has merit, it is absurd to thing we would compete with Las Vegas and it's OVER TWO MILLION SQUARE FEET with just the LV convention center alone IN ONE PLACE! That doesn't even include the other half dozen or so casino/hotel private convention centers that are OVER ONE MILLION SQUARE FEET each! (I was originally going to write "over a few hundred thousand until I actually looked at the figures - even I was surprised - I knew the gargantuan LV Convention Center complex was huge, but I forgot how massive all the others were!).

Buffalo can and should compete with the smaller venues. Tearing down and not replacing the present facility is an insane idea and very cost-foolish.

And for godsake, if there is a serious effort to build new, don't construct multiple small rooms on multiple levels. Conventions want ONE BIG SPACE ON A SINGLE LEVEL - WITHOUT WINDOWS - that they can either use all at once or devide up into smaller venues. Additional smaller meeting rooms are nice, but are always ancillary to the main single large space.

The present facility is an embarassement, that's for sure...

replied to Buffalo All Star
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I don't think I ever said Buffalo could compete with Las Vegas, but I would hope Buffalo could compete with the likes of Pittsburgh or Hartford.

I can see why a lot of people would disagree with tearing down the convention center and not replacing it. After all, don't we need a convention center to hold conventions? Well, I disagree. I think there needs to be a lot of available meeting and exhibition space, and Buffalo has that in spades. Let's let hoteliers handle it for the most part and just create a central booking agency. Incidentally, hotel ballrooms are in buildings people love, while the convention center is a building people tolerate. Why are we publicly subsidizing a building we only tolerate that steals business from the buildings we love?

Session rooms are also very important for conventions. Most conventions serve the purpose of providing continuing education for various professional certifications. The session rooms is where that happens.

replied to JohnMarko
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Do you guys read or what? A convention center is the same concept as a college or a university..you have everything together for functionality and ease..not some piss poor attempt to put people on the street. As I said earlier..conventions aren't just in the convention center.

Imagine how long it would take to get a degree or (to attend a convention) if every time you had class it was in a different building all over town? It would take years and not be functional in the slightest.

The convention center and the actual convention are the most boring parts of the convention..lots of conventioneers are looking for high quality enviroments outside of the center as well. Are all meals given in the convention center? No. Are all tours given in the convention center? No. Is all shopping done in the convention center? No.

Some faux city built to enterain them? I suppose what we have now is a real city? I suppose everything at the waterfront should be considered a faux city...as well as navy pier in Chicago (surrounding parkland as well)..the riverfront and acoutrements in Indianopolis..the waterfront in Cleveland Etc.

Notice J.Marko I said "pull business from" and not "compete against". Fact of the matter is that a lot of business goes to your larger markets due to lack of options..not necessarily because theres 10million square feet of space avaiable in Las Vegas..more so Las Vegas is one of a few options that are available and affordable.

With appropriate leadership and the correct facilities..Buffalo could easily jump from what'd I'd imagine is near bottom of the list to at least the middle. Therefore being "more" of a contender for events that go elsewhere than before.

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Your point about colleges isn't true. There are lots of universities that operate several campuses and there are many consortiums of schools that accept credit from each other. For instance, in Morgantown, West Virginia, West Virginia University has three campuses. 'Loop University' in Chicago is a consortium of schools all operating downtown. Five Colleges and Quaker Consortium are also examples of consortiums. In Columbus, a lot of OSU students took classes at Columbus State because they could transfer credit without a grade being shown on their OSU transcript. OSU's campus and Columbus State's campuses are miles apart, but students would take classes at both concurrently. If you have good transit, things like this are possible even without a car.

I think for a convention, the big thing is that most thing be reasonably proximate. Downtown Buffalo has lots of underutilized spaces that could hold conventions. Further, by tearing down the convention center and leaving this function to the private market, it's another component that can be added into the programming (and financing) for reusing old buildings and new construction.

(Other than Las Vegas) Chicago, New Orleans and Manhattan are the most popular convention destinations. All of those places offer unique restaurants and stores. When someone says that we should build all this new stuff down by the arena, I tend to think it will look more like a shopping mall rather than a real city that has grown organically over time.

Also, in my opinion, the Navy Pier and the Waterfront in Cleveland are both pretty boring. In Cleveland, I'd rather go to Little Italy or Ohio City where there is great food and always lots of people. In Chicago, I'll stick to the rest of Downtown.

replied to Buffalo All Star
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Please explain how "pulling business from" is different from "competing with"?

Of course if you're "pulling business from" a locale, you're "competing with" that local.

replied to Buffalo All Star
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I agree with the assesment that the convention center is outdated. If one travels accross the country for business conferences, they would see that more than not, that the convention business is becoming more of private enterprise than public. The Gaylord opryland hotels/convention center is prime example of an all inclusive facility that was privately funded. Private investment would most likely produce a higher quality product/ facility or service. The city and region already has a tax abaitment program in place that could be used to foster a new hotel convention center complex much like it does now for the resent hotel projects.

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Great post. Get rid of it. The Convention Center has done more harm than good.

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The convention center gives folks who may not have any reason to come to Buffalo to come experience its hopeful rebirth that seems to be happening slowly. The National Trust Conference was a perfect example of how the convention center might actually start to plant perception seeds in people who may have had preconceived negative notions from the get go. Its all aboyt positive spin. Theres benefit in that to say the least, especially in a negative stereotype city like Buffalo. Sure, tear the current center down but to totally say adios is just another step in falling off the map and people's radar. I still think a Main Place Mall conversion project would be a great location to establish a larger floor plate convention center.

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Those who took in field sessions during that conference likely have a different perspective. I attended three myself and the out of town visitors seemed very much impressed.

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Then where would we put the worlds largest disco???

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Just a side note that I have not seen in any of these posts yet (or may have over looked, who knows)...Before the current Convention Center was completed, most of the major conventions were held in the Statler (Statler Hilton). Sort of why, they built the convention center where it is today. But, shortly after the old Genesee Building was bought and transformed into the Hyatt and the rest is well, history. But, even in the late 60's, the old post office (now, ECC City Campus-main building) was considered for a 'convention center'. So, conventions could be held in the Statler once again, but is it the right lay out? can it fit as many people in one room?

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I say we tear it down and open up the street grid again. Then we can hold all of our conventions at the Hotel du Bob.

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We need a plan for redeveloping downtown, especially Main Street.

Main Street needs activity, and this cannot happen in part, because of Main Place, M & T Plaza and other spaces that do not have active streetscapes. These outdated buildings create dead zones that don't encourage pedestrian activity.

One M&T Plaza should be encouraged to build out to the street (on top of their plaza) with a glass pavilion. Doors can slide open for outdoor concerts in the summer. In cold weather, the glass space could be a great wintergarden. Main Place should come down, replaced with vibrant retail spaces, that can accommodate an urban TJ Maxx, Kohls, etc. This will complement the eventual revitalization of AM&A's.

Buffalo Place should take the lead (City doesn't seem to have the capacity).
Now that cars are coming back, we need a plan to have "People Sharing Main Street".

Finally, this means that a new Convention Center should not be on Main Street, or in the CBD. These places are big boxes, with huge loading docks, and do nothing to encourage the street life we need.

Put a new convention center near the casino or near FNC, for synergy and nightlife.


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the fastest way to generate street life at the main place mall would be to turn it inside out. have each store move its entrance from the interior corridor to main street. several shops already have the doors; they're just blocked off. shops on the pearl street side should be encouraged to move into empty spaces on the main street side.

replied to hamp
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Easy and sensible. I like it.

replied to grad94
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I have always thought that the elm/oak corridor would be a good location for a convention center. For that matter East of Michigan near Shehan. We do need a dedicated space for conventions, unfortunatly. Having been to many conventions in other cities the "Center" becomes a gateway to the city proper for out of towners. Our convention center is woefully inadequate and embaracing(frankly).

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As much as I want the convention center to go, there is no rush.

Now if someone wanted to built a Larkin Warehouse type large footprint 20 story building then Id say....its urgent but what purpose do we serve to knock it down and have another empty lot downtown.

Yes demolish the convention center but not just yet.

My suggestion is to emulate the success of the Canal District.

Further south along South Park is Father Conway Park. Burried under Father Conway Park is the Larkin Administration Building in what was the Ohio Basin and Canal.

I say excavate the Larkin Administration Building for saleable souveniers, rewater the Ohio Basin and Canal and then on the 3 sides of the Basin build: Conference Center, Convention Center and Hotel.
-more than enough room for parking
-easy access to Thruway
-easy access to Outer Harbor and Downtown
-on Light Rail Route for South Buffalo Extension of Light Rail connecting the Casino and the new Convention Center (

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I'm still mad they tore down servomat to build it!

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I think what needs to be done is the block between Delaware, Huron, Mohawk, Franklin should be acquired via eminent domain, leveled, and a multi-use Convention center add-on and underground parking are added. Maybe other development opportunities or configuration at either end for an office tower or two on top or bookending the space can be used. Then the city signs an agreement with Snyder, Croce and montante to link their building into this new space

What the city Gains is a modern building with curb appeal that can compliment this space and link the two grand downtown hotels and allow more volume to be accessible to the Statler. Croce can also potentially link in the Curtiss building.

Think the Toronto Convention Centre North Building and the PATH system and Skywalk.

This will rid the city of Parking lots and buildings that really do not belong in the downtown core.

I know eminent domain is a bad word, but look at how that parcel is discedted. One story buildings. A run-down Class B office Parking lot and a Charter school that could be better served in a residential area . I walk past these everyday and wish someone would do something with this block.

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There's more to a convention experience than just the building that houses it. As the ASC pointed out, not only was our CC not adequate, we also lacked the surrounding and supporting amenities that they were looking for.

I agree that it is pointless to enter the large-scale convention market when there are already so many competing cities. But as the article about Indianapolis' Superbowl last month pointed out, there is no reason why we can't be successful by refining a niche market of small and mid-size events.

Indy focused their plan on sports facilities, hotels and retail. New Orleans' Superdome complex hosts everything from sports to politics (and the ocasional natural disater). Las Vegas hotsts myriads of events because of their hotels and entertainment.

Even Atlanta survives with two behemoth facilities (the World Congress Center and AmericasMart), plus two smaller convention complexes (both approximately the size of ours) and several dozen hotel/resort complexes that host mini-conventions and smaller local events. They all survive together because each caters to its own niche and scale.

Buffalo can certainly do better in the small and medium size event market, but not solely because of a new or improved Convention Center. We would also need to develop our hotels, retail, entertainment, transportation and support services.

I am all for getting rid of the current CC. It is ugly and outdated, built in that location because of the Statler which no longer functions as a hotel. But it's the only facility we have capably of handling medium-sized events (can you imagine spreading the car show across two or three smaller venues?). Spreading events across several locations looks good on paper, but it's simply too outside the box for most conventions to consider being practical.

*IF* we ever decide to remove the CC, we would need to do so after a replacement is found. As Canalside develops, I could see the empty lots behind HSBC Atrium as a contender... it is near the casino, arena, Canalside retail and entertainment, MetroRail, and new hotel going into the Donovan Bldg.

There is no reason why we can't be more flexible with a new CC. One of the hallmarks of a modern CC facility is adaptability. Perhaps one that is able to house indoor/outdoor festival space, cultural amenities including performance halls and exhibition space, retail space, and any other number of functions that would keep it active and useful to the city even between conventions. But as I've said so many times before, it isn't a silver bullet... it needs to be part of a cohesive plan instead of a random shot in the dark. Otherwise, we'll just end up with a more modern version of the failure we built 40 years ago.

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Speaking of Car Shows and the Home Show - we used to do just fine by using the Armory (I think it was the Coneticut Street Armory) - and it did just fine. Even built a complete home with yard, etc. that was raffeled off once the show was done each year. And there was plenty of space.

So auto and home shows would do just fine without the present convention center - it those venues are still around, that is...

But I still don't think Buffalo should spend millions on what it would cost to tear down the convention center - it doesn't have the money to spend, and it's funcitioning just fine for now. Buffalo has to decide what it wants for it's future needs.

There presently is not enough private activity to realistically consider a new one let alone tearing down the existing one. Maybe once the local economy is moving along - and I believe it will - then such ideas can again be considered.

I never understood why the Marine Midland/HSBC/First Niagara/(fill in tomorrow's new name) center wasn't considered as a whole complex - with use capable of ALSO being a "conventtion center" - heck, even the old Aud was capable of auto shows and home shows - seems a shame that structure couldn't have been utilized in conjunction with the arena. But the Aud is another Larkin lost opportunity.

replied to DeanerPPX
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i agree. And I think the car shows were at the Masten Armory, across from City Honors.

replied to JohnMarko
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Nicholas, your post is excerpted in an article on DT demolitions on Rachel Barnhart's blog, The Rochesterian:
http://therochesterian.com/2012/03/04/tearing-things-down/

Rachel is Rochester's brainiest reporter by like a factor of 3, and has probably the top media Twitter feed in the city. In 2005 (when I still lived in Rochester) I was an organizer of a campaign to save Rochester's old DT subway tunnel, and Rachel's coverage proved a crucial element of our success.

Her article also includes a link to an Op-Ed I wrote in 2009 (when I was doing some consulting for Onondaga County) opposing a DT demo in Syracuse.

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Thanks for pointing this out. I'm not sure she got my point, though. She also failed to mention that in addition to the vacant storefronts on Main St, the Convention Planners passed over Buffalo because the Convention Center didn't meet their standards.

I'm no fan of vacant lots either, but in this case, I just see no point in throwing money at a building that seems so redundant, obsolete, hurtful to the urban environment, and steals programming from other prominent, underutilized buildings.

I was just in Columbus where they tore down a dead downtown mall and replaced it with a quickly built park. The park is mostly just a placeholder until worthwhile development opportunities come along. Like Buffalo, Downtown Columbus already has quite a few vacant lots and parking lots, but the park is still pleasant and doesn't seem out of place. A similar approach could be followed here, along with repairing Genesee. I think this area would make for a nice little park in the interim. It's fronted by buildings on all sides.

replied to RaChaCha
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The convention center is definitely a blight especially to the buildings east of it. Noone prefers to live or work in a building that overlooks a long, ugly concrete wall. Which is no doubt part of the reason those buildings are not well kept and (under?) utilized. IF the center was ever torn down, I agree with you that it should be contingent on restoring the radial grid, and especially contingent on making the space a modern (emphasis on modern) park (sans any concrete) instead of a parking lot. When and if a developer wanted to build on it, the city could consider selling the land and building over the green space. We are a shrinking city and could capitalize on our gorgeous smaller venues as apposed to pretending buffalo is something it is not. Competing in the large national convention market should not be our priority. It is functional, but the center and the surrounding environment IS pretty embarrassing when compared to other cities. We should be setting ourselves apart from other cities to attract a specific clientele, not trying to emulate the massive public centers that other cities have invested in. Face it, we are shrinking, but we do have beautiful venues for smaller conventions. I'm not sure tearing this down is the smartest move, but what you are saying is definitely food for thought.

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I'd love to see the old Central Terminal reused for a purpose like this, but if downtowns lack of charm was enough to scare off this group imagine what the lovely area around the Terminal would do.

I doubt there will be much that any older space could do even after a gut reno to accomodate modern high-technology conventions, so I dont think rehabbing an older space to suit modern needs is the answer.

I do agree though that building a smarter center aimed at the appropriate market segment and covention size is a far better idea.

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The building is hideous. Tear it down and open up the original street plan. Couldn't the Statler function for small and medium sized groups?

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Much of the Preservation Conference was at the Statler.

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Your article is very insightful with regard to whether a new convention center should be built- but provide absolutely no justification for tearing down the current convention center.

What is the objective criteria for tearing down the existing convention center?

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It costs money to continue to operate. I wouldn't be surprised if ongoing annual expenses were a million dollars or more.

In and of itself, the center is clearly not very effective at attracting business from beyond the region.

Also, for most events, it's made redundant by hotel ballrooms and other civic spaces like Armories and the First Niagara Arena. When you look at the calendar of events, most of the things are local or smaller scale. A lot of the events are things like wine festivals, college fairs and dinners. Those seem like things that could just as easily happen at the Statler, Lafayette, Hyatt, college campuses, armories, or even outside during the summer. Also, if attracting all these people downtown for conventions were so beneficial, Downtown would be more active, so who's really even benefiting from the convention center?

The convention center is also a blight on the area and messes with Buffalo's street grid. It's a big reason why Pearl Street feels more like an alley or a rear service drive than a street pedestrians actually are supposed to use.

I also just don't see why the government needs to be in the event planning business. There are clearly private developers who are willing to fulfill this need at this scale.

I therefore see no point in keeping the Convention Center and I see no point in upgrading it or building a new one. It's time to bite the bullet and just get rid of it. It was probably a bad allocation of resources in the first place and it continues to be.

I suppose an approach that would assuage people's fears of lost business would be to put it out there that the city is planning to demolition the convention center and is looking for a private developer to fill any voids in event space demand. Then new developments, like the conversion of the Donovan Building to hotel and office space would likely include more event space and the region could be assured that the transition would happen smoothly.

replied to TBone
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I mean in no way to be critical of your point of view, because you may very well be right but I was hoping to hear the objective reasons for tearing down the building- simply imagining that it might be running a deficit or making statements like "the center is clearly not very effective at attracting business from beyond the region" isn't objective criteria.

If the object criteria supports that 1) existing facilities can accommodate the volume and type of traffic that the center attracts; and 2) that the center does not bring any money in both actual income and derivative income, then I will happily agree that the thing should be knocked down.

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No offense taken. You raise many good points. These things should be carefully accounted for and considered before actually demolishing the convention center. From what I can tell, not all of the necessary numbers are publicly available. I may get in touch with Convention Bureau and try to get the numbers to tabulate.

I also think it's telling that the Lafayette and Statler began to slowly die on the vine as soon as the convention center was built. Now that they're being given a second lease on life, it's a good time to reevaluate the necessity of the convention center.

replied to TBone
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