Road Trip: St. Louis #2
Comments
Leave a commentI think you need to be more specific about the differences between Buffalo and St. Louis in these posts. It's almost like you're saying that Buffalo doesn't have any commercial districts like this, which I can't accept as true. It may be true that St. Louis has done a better job, but again, I think you need to be more specific with what those things are for this to be a useful discussion.
Buffalo has several neighborhoods like the Delmar Loop - Allentown, Hertel and Chippewa come to mind. None of those are exactly like the Delmar Loop, but they don't need to be to be successful. In fact, they probably shouldn't be exactly like another place. I spent thirty minutes one evening with a friend trying to park near Hertel and another thirty trying to find a restaurant with less than an hour wait. Elmwood and Delmar both won the same American Planning Association designation and the APA awarded it to Elmwood first. I've been crowded off the sidewalk on Chippewa by the throngs of people walking around during the weekend. I feel like we're splitting hairs with a 'grass is greener' comparison. The Delmar Loop also has parking lots that the pedestrian has to walk past and some empty buildings. There are also parking lots behind most of the buildings that create a buffer between it and the surrounding neighborhood.
So, I think your advice needs to be more specific. Tell us more about this law that they enacted. Tell us more about how they've leveraged the proximity to transit. Tell us more about specific building forms or unique solutions for funding renovations. Or if you really feel like Buffalo is completely lacking a neighborhood like this, tell us where you think there's the potential to create one.
Buffalo has no neighborhood like this street. It has several that could be like this. But the people have to want it. Right now I think a small contingent of people in any area of Buffalo would fight tooth and nail to prevent this from happening on Elmwwod Allen or Hertel. I hope I am wrong about that.
Like I said in the other post, Buffalo refuses to gamble on business. Everyone is so afraid of what might happen if such and such business, bar, restaurant etc. opens that they lose sight of what drew them to the area to begin with, those types of businesses. As well as the opportunity to draw future businesses because of the reputation of opposition.
Pano's might not be everyone's favorite design but the place is packed and lively everyday of the week. There's even people waiting outside for a table in the winter! Look how long it took for Pano to get to that point because people were afraid. Yes a house got torn down but we're left with arguably one of the busiest places on Elmwood that draws from all over the area. They also maintain their space and keep it very welcoming.
I see Acropolis as an extension of Pano's. As long as fire codes are followed and building permits are filed there should be no reason for an expansion like that to be stalled, period.
I love what Pano's has become. I don't like that they tore down what I think was a historical house, but I absolutely love the idea of it, and I want twenty more restaurants/bars/pubs just like it. Because when the weather turns warmer, I don't want to go to Elmwood and be caged in some miserable hole in the wall with a crumbling exterior. All these buildings in the above picture look crisp and new, and very well-kept. It's nice to be trendy and all-accepting like the Elmwood Village is, but several of those properties need serious makeovers. Bright, vibrant areas attract like-minded people, and nobody wants to sit in some miserable hole. We have a lot of those on Elmwood and more should be done (like fines) to enforce property upkeep.
Seriously. I've lived in St. Louis and I've spent a significant amount of time visiting Buffalo. I really don't see how the Delmar Loop is particularly different from Elmwood or Hertel or Chippewa or Allentown. Please enlighten me. What specifically does this neighborhood have that those neighborhoods do not have? All of the above are a mix of coffee shops, bars, clubs and boutiques. The Delmar Loop probably looks the most like Hertel, and like Hertel the Delmar Loop has a small movie house. If we're talking about how Elmwood has convenience stores, I'm sure there would be no argument to those being transformed into mixed use street-fronting buildings.
I feel like you can't see the forest for the trees. Perhaps, Buffalo is too personal and you're not evaluating this objectively. I see that a lot with urbanists, they're very critical of their own cities. I'm not saying Buffalo can't learn from these places, but those other places could also learn from Buffalo. Buffalo has two neighborhoods that have been recognized by the APA for their excellence in planning. Let's have a little pride here.
What you are saying is simply not true. No place in Buffalo has the density of street-side retail and restaurants and the density of pedestrian traffic that this neighborhood has. What Buffalo has is a few nice retail strips which lack continuity and have tremendous unrealized potential.
The Elmwood Village Association lists 277 different businesses, 48 of which are restaurants along 1.6 miles. That's 170 business per mile. The Delmar Loop has 148 business on just under a mile. That's about 160 businesses a mile. The EV number also doesn't include all of the places just beyond the Elmwood area that are woven right into the fabric of the city, like Prime 490, Left Bank, Essex Pub or Five Points Bakery. The area around Elmwood has a population density of 20,000+ people per square mile. I suppose the Delmar Loop has a slightly higher density of nightlife establishments, but I could also say that Elmwood is a more well-rounded neighborhood that fulfills more of its residents daily needs. For instance, to my recollection, there's no grocery store in the Delmar Loop.
I really just think you're stuck in a grass is greener rut. I appreciate that you're trying to share information that can help the city, but I feel like it's coming off as a bit back-handed.
Buffalo is actually denser than St. Louis overall and for Buffalo to support as many urban districts that it does, it has a much higher proportion of urbanites in its region than does St. Louis (Metro St. Louis: 2.8 Million; Metro Buffalo: 1.1 Million). And one last time (with feeling) the Delmar Loop and the Elmwood Village were both recognized as urban success stories by the same national body. It's like we're debating which apple is shinier.
You are too defensive and have not gotten the point I am making. Defensiveness is a sign that you believe that things are just fine how they are. The fact is Buffalo has made great strides toward improvement but things are not fine how they are. There is a lot of room for improvement. The knee jerk reaction in Buffalo (an understandable reaction based on recent history) is to oppose all change. That has to end. I have given to examples of very busy and very attractive commercial districts that (in general) live in harmony with their associated residential streets.
Your numbers are also off the Delmar area that I am talking about is only about .83 miles long and a vast majority of businesses are in a stretch only about a half mile long. That is equivalent to the length of Allen Street.
You're splitting hairs. In that case, the Delmar Loop and the EV have the same density of businesses.
I'm not from Buffalo. I love Buffalo because it already has the things I look for in a city. Could the Elmwood Village have a little more polish? Sure. It could have nicer sidewalks and better landscaping. Some of the stores would also do well to enhance their facades. I'm not going to argue with that, but the same can be said for the Delmar Loop, frankly. What would be useful information is to see how the leaders in the Delmar Loop were perhaps able to get the area to go along with Tax Increment Financing for neighborhood improvements or how they deal with disputes between businesses and residents. Or maybe to look at how they were able to put together a plan for financing the Streetcar. We could also get the prespective of a Delmar Loop resident on what draws them to the area and talk about the regional economic impact of the Loop, which would be useful information to support development in Buffalo.
As it stands, we're debating which neighborhood is better and then saying do something (but we're not sure exactly what) to become that better neighborhood. I don't see the value in that.
"What Buffalo has is a few nice retail strips which lack continuity"
This is just not true--an unfair, broad-brush and unhelpful comment.
It is true. You cannot walk any length down a Buffalo retail strip without crossing large parking lots or long stretches of houses.
The Delmar loop also has a convenience store fronted by a parking lot and a gas station, as does the Central West End (though the gas station there is from the twenties, so it's actually attractive and interesting). The Delmar Loop also has a few apartment buildings on Delmar with no storefronts and a lot more empty lots than the Elmwood Village has.
Why don't we talk about Grant or Baily and how we can work to elevate the business on those strips. I'd love to see a program of volunteers that helped the small family-run businesses on Grant with polishing up their stores. We could help them put in better shelves, paint, and better organize their wares. Maybe even help them design better signage.
You reduced the city to "a few nice retail shops." Well, I would like to give you my tour. And the number of small parking lots on Elmwood from Allen to Forest hardly wrecks the urban life of that long, interesting street.
I like your posts very much; I just look for precise, reasonable writing. I also think your indices of a city's vitality are narrow. You never talk about a city's meaning. You never mention the tremendous stew of culture simmering in Buffalo. People walking the streets; you seem to think there is nothing more important. I think it's unwise to isolate that element and demand that it conform to one's impressions of someplace else; cities are more than the sum of their parts. I like to enjoy the streets, too, but my finest experiences in Buffalo , New York, or Paris, did not take place as I window shopped--they were at Kleinhans, at table in someone's beautiful dining room, in the park where the Albright-Knox and the Historical Society stand guard, sober and Athenian... in a tour of a forgotten building.
Street life is only one of a city's vitals, but in America the pulse is so similar from city to city, that I wonder why we celebrate this homogenized urban parade as if it were some kind of epiphany. What it has become is a prescribed, predictable and oddly conformist tableau--repeated over and over as we congratulate ourselves for being "cool." It's nice, I welcome it, but it's not the meaning of a city.
What are you talking about???? Dense walkable commercial streets are exceedingly rare in American cities. They are hardly conformist.
"Exceedingly rare" is an exaggeration. You just wrote about how many there are in one economically stressed city. They don't seem rare at all to me. They seem very much alike--and overrated--that was my complaint.
I hate to agree with you. It's a trendy thing right now. They are even building completely artificial walkable strips in the suburbs these days. Some malls are even being transformed from enclosed to outdoors.
However, I think that walkable retail strips become something more than just entertainment and shopping when it coincides with the ability to get rid of your car. Then we're really talking about a very different way of living that I think is healthier for the environment, society and the individual. I'm amazed by the economic diversity of the Elmwood Village, you have everything from millionaires to middle and working class families, to young apartment dwellers. They're all walking on the same streets, shopping at the same stores, eating at the same restaurants. That leads to a kind of civic engagement and communal experience which is very healthy for everyone, I believe.
With the exception of artificial walkable suburban strips, I don't understand exactly what you mean by 'trendy.' What I see is people enjoying patronizing dense walkable districts incorporated into the fabric of neighborhoods. Not all, but many people are gravitating towards that kind of lifestyle not because it is trendy, but because they prefer this type of experience to the homogenous strip malls that dominate 99%(?) of retail options in the metro. Even in our drastically shrunken city of over 250,000, three or four streets that show any kind of commercial vibrancy seems low. (Restaurant options on the other hand seem a bit high. I keep finding lots of good spots to spend money I don't have.)
A good example of my point is that people say that sushi is trendy, but after ten years of being supposedly trendy, it seems like people just like eating sushi.
What I was getting at is that it's trendy to shop and dine in walkable urban settings, real or artificial. However, that's just trading one shopping mall for another if it doesn't induce people to move within walking distance of a neighborhood commercial district. That's the goal, right? We want people to move back to dense, walkable neighborhoods, not just visit them. I appreciate it when people drive in from the suburbs and hang out in the city. However, in the long-run, I would hope many would like those places so much that they trade their suburban lifestyle for an urban one.
I wrote about 2 "T W O" commercial districts consisting of fewer than 10 blocks in a metro of 3 Million people ! European cities of a few hundred thousand have more vibrancy than that. Are you really trying to argue that we have too many vibrant walkable commercial streets in America? Really??? Buffalo used to have over 2 dozen commercial districts like this that have been destroyed by sprawl. Now it hangs on to just 3 moderately busy business areas and a few others hanging by a thread.
Cities across America have been decimated by sprawl. High quality urban business streets are rare in this country.
I said that it's an exaggeration to say that busy urban neighborhoods are exceedingly rare in American cities. It's not true.
My comments to you were about the lack of a full measure of a city's value. Endless talk about "vibrancy" ignores much of what gives cities their meaning. It implies that a city is less meaningful if it doesn't meet the latest "vibrancy" metric. More important, it is deaf to the meaningfulness of people's lives, which in my experience, tends to become more compelling and interesting in cities that fail to slake the constant thirst for an increasingly same and homogenous urban buzz.
I would agree we worry too much about somehow duplicating the "success" stories of other cities. The urban experience should reflect the individual character of the city. That character is formed by our history, our diversity, and most importantly the challenges we have and continue to face as citizens of this city. Our sense of place is rooted in the generations that shaped Buffalo and left us this great legacy. I don't want Buffalo to be like Denver or St Louis, I want us to succeed on our own strengths and assets while holding on to our unique personality.
As for my own finest experiences in Buffalo, they are simple pleasures. Being part of a community and working together to improve the neighborhood, celebrating our history and sharing that knowledge with others, and exploring the many off beat places that go unrecognized and unappreciated. Those places include our industrial relics, the rail corridors, the undeveloped portions of our waterfront, and especially the vestiges of our oldest neighborhoods. It is difficult for many to see the beauty and potential in these places but they define our city and should be celebrated along with our more obvious assets.
The vestiges of our oldest neighborhoods just make me sad. Our oldest neighborhoods used to be active vibrant places. It is exceedingly hard to celebrate what most have become. This idea that Buffalo is just fine as it is is backward thinking. It is not fine how it is. We should not have to be fighting to save every building because they are being left to rot. Working to achieve attractive vibrant neighborhoods that people want to be in is not trying to be trendy. It is trying to be what Buffalo should be.
I think you're overreacting. Yes, Buffalo could and should do thousands of things to improve itself, but it takes time. I'm consistently impressed by how often Buffalonians take things into their own hands and get things done; from caring for parks to renovating historic homes to gathering volunteers to re-lay historic cobblestone streets to opening businesses and planting trees. Buffalo has incredibly dedicated and loyal citizens. There's so much to be proud of and look forward to. Will there be disputes? Yes. But we're trying to reconcile everyone's different desires for the city. It's a natural thing in an urban setting. It's unavoidable. That people care enough to go to meetings and talk to each other about development is worth championing in and of itself. I don't see why you're attacking people for having different visions for the future. Some people are going to want Elmwood to be a more sedate neighborhood kind of place and some people are going to want it to be a busier, louder environment. Neither of those outcomes is necessarily bad. What would be bad is trying to force something down people's throats that they do not want. Neighborhood residents need convinced and persuaded, not told that they're being obstructionists and to get along or get out. Neighborhood residents are customers and patrons, and homeowners are stewards of an historic environment. Why would you react to their concerns with such despair and disregard?
This is very wise. Well said.
I agree that Elmwood is broken up by long stretches of houses ( many in need of a makeover). One notable positive is the intersection of Ashland and Lexington. 3 restaurants/bars and a few retail spots tucked away a block from Elmwood. If the 2 opposite corners are developed in a similar fashion, that could be an awesome extension of Elmwood.
I think this has more to do with differences in design and age not the "small contingent" (St Louis no doubt has people like this too).
St Louis is mostly row-houses where detached doubles and single are more common here. The higher density may explain the more urban feel there.
Also, a great deal of Buffalo's growth occurred during the 1910's and 20s when streetcars and autos enabled more dispersed growth. St Louis peaked before the turn of the century giving much of it a "walking city" feel. Most of those "large parking lots" along Hertel (between Delaware and Parkside) have been there since the origin of the neighborhood.
"It's almost like you're saying that Buffalo doesn't have any commercial districts like this, which I can't accept as true"
I don't think STEEL is saying that at all. His point is that we should look towards these models as something to immulate. Also, I dont think Elmwood would be a good spot because of the narrow sidewalks. But, I could see Hertel being the perfect spot because it is more car centric, and has larger sidewalks. Also, I have to agree with STEEL again (I cant believe im saying this) but unfortunately certain parts of the city (Elmwood) would probably fight this tooth and nail.
Then my point would be that he should be specific in where Elmwood can improve.
It sounds like you might have a couple ideas you can submit?
I replied to this comment, but I must of unchecked the replying box accidentally. My response is way down.
fence those people in! That street looks like chaos!!!
I moved to St. Louis from DC a few years ago and stayed for a year before moving on to Houston. I had previous St. Louis experience from a college friend who grew up in the very wealthy Ladue suburb of St. Louis. I visited a few times and it was definitely different from mycomfortable but not extravagant local upbringing.
I lived on Washington Avenue which is a great loft district on the edge of downtown. Was it as dense as DC? No, but it did have enough bars and restaurants to keep me busy. The best thing about it was that it was largely in tact. Not all buildings had been renovoted but they mostly still existed.
I also enjoyed the Central West End. My friend's father grew up in a mansion on Portland Place before fleeing to the homogenous safety of Ladue in the 1970's. The private streets in the CWE with their rows of 3 story palazzos are really a sight to behold. The restaurants on Euclid also provided a fun night out.
I generally avoided The Loop. It is a cool neighborhood but it tends toward young and rowdy with a fair bit of crime. It is not unheard of for roving gangs of teens to attack residents and visitors; both on the street and the light rail. That probably explains the police presence.
There are other areas as well in town that have, or are becoming, gentrified. Buffalo has nothing like Soulard which wouldn't look out of place as a neighborhood in New Orleans. It was decimated in the 1970's and has a lot of open space but most of what was left standing is renovated brick single family and row homes from the early 1800's. McGurks Pub will take any preppy kid back to the good old days at Colter Bay. Benton Park and Tower Grove are other areas south of downtown that have come back.
Other very working class parts of the city like Dogtown and The Hill have stayed viable largely because they are ethnically homogenous neighborhoods.
The counterpoint to this is North St. Louis which is a war zone. I have never seen such beautiful homes completely abandoned as I did there. In Buffalo, the blight is mostly confined to neighborhoods that have more modest housing stock. It is fairly unusal to see an abandoned grand old house.
I brought a friend from St. Louis to Buffalo and he was truly impressed by Elmwood. St. Louis does not have a single street that is developed to the extent that Elmwood is over such a long distance. The neighborhoods in St. Louis you are discussing are all 5-10 block pockets. If you put them all together they'd have critical mass but as they are they are disjointed. They may be really great pockets but thatey are islands in the city.
Despite the similarities though there are major differences. Metro St. Louis has nearly 3 and not 2 times the population of Buffalo. This makes a bg differences in the businesses it can support. It is also the headquarters of several major corporations including AB-Inbev, AG Edwards, Monsanto, Rawlings, Scottrade and Stifel Nicholas. These companies are benefactiors to the arts and other programs as well as providing high paying jobs to people that are accustomed to the good life.
They also dig and dig deep to support the arts and charities. The Pulitzers and Busches have money to burn and there are many other less well known wealthy families. I went to a black tie fund raiser for a local hospital where tables of 10 cost $10,000 and an on the spot pledge campaign got over a million dollars in commitments in about 20 minutes.
The city invests in streetscape and the arts. There is cohesive lighting, sidewalks, street trees, and other ammenities that improve the urban experience. The recent opening of the downtown sculpture garden is a great example of how the arts and public spaces improve the quality of life. It is truly a sight to see.
I guess that my summation is that there are similarities in the cities but Buffalo is a lot smaller and less affluent. The Buffalo and St. Louis share the problems of crime, poverty, and urban decay. When a city has 3 million people, a world class university, a steller medical center and a commited upper class it is easier to get things done. Buffalo could stand to learn from the St. Louis's focus on creating inviting public spaces. If Buffalo. Trees, lighting and sidewalks go a long way toward making a spce inviting to patrons and development.
Pretty much agree on all counts except to say that metro population size is not a factor in making great vibrant urban places. I will show that in a future post. Certainly more people helps but how you attract the people you have is more important.
You mention a university (world-class is a little stretching it),a medical center, a committed upper class as integral to city success. Well, Buffalo is not exactly lacking those elements. People don't realize how much private money there still is inside the City of Buffalo, let alone the metro area. It's a lot. The problem is that it is somewhat ancient money and it's held pretty closely to the vest right now.
Buffalo is lacking wealthy families and foundations that give large sums of money to public projects. That is just a fact. Buffalo is heavily "under-foundationed" when comparing the city to similar. Dallas needed/wanted a new bridge and a deck over a highway. Did they beg all the money from the taxpayers? Nope. They named it after a Hunt and said Hunt gave a substantial sum toward getting it built. I can't see Robert Rich buying Buffalo a new Peace Bridge.
I agree about the giving to large public projects; the very rich families have stopped doing that. It is not, though, from lack of money. Buffalo has many, many very wealthy families. At its peak there were more than in St. Louis. They used to do the large projects; that's why Buffalo has such beautiful buildings and homes. There are many reasons why that culture of giving has been stingy, and it's lamentable.
I wonder why that is in Buffalo and not in St. Louis or Dallas or Houston? If I had to guess I'd say that maybe Buffalo families aren't making much money so they live off what they have. Buffalo really doesn't have a lot of very wealthy families though even when comparing to other cities. There are only 2 Buffalo families in the Forbes 400. St. Louis has 4 including one worth $9 Billion. He made that money and didn't inherit it.
Well, I can only tell you, from years of experience in Buffalo culture, that there are many very wealthy people in Buffalo---it was one of the richest cities in America for a long time. Many of those families are still here. You're right that the oldness of Buffalo's money is a large factor in recent giving. There is not a large wave of new money in the past 20 years, though that seems to be changing. But it's inaccurate to paint the city as lacking wealthy families. In old guard circles Buffalo is known as a bastion of WASP money. I'd just like to see less of that money lining the coffins and more of it in bold new projects. But I'm hopeful.
Agreed, it's crowded with a diverse mix of people enjoying themselves,(beware bottle-wielding toddlers!). It's attractive with trees and well-lit sidewalks. Who would want that?
Really, Hertel should attempt this.
Forgive the typos in the above. I should re-read before posting and not after.
One thing to add that St. Louis has and Buffalo should be happy that it does not is the game of knockout king. Bored teenagers walk up to unsuspecting pedestrians and see if they can knock them out with one punch. An older Vietnamese gentleman died last year when a kid did this to him. Young, old, male female; it doesn't matter. Anyone is a target.
It is probably just a matter of time before this spreads.
Just when you think American culture cannot possibly degrade any further, you hear about something even lower.
American culture has not really degraded, violence has actually decreased in the past decades. Our history is full of violence, this country was a much more dangerous place in the past. Here in Buffalo in the heyday of the Erie Canal there was a murder a day in the city. There were men called "gougers" that fought until one contestant gouged out the eye of another. This was considered sport and wagers were placed on the outcome.
In more recent times child abuse, wife beating, animal abuse and other forms of violence were rampant and accepted by many. It is simply not true that modern society is more violent, a little history will quickly dispel the myth of the "good old days".
I wasn't speaking of historical times; I was talking about modern times. And I'm not talking about the frequency rate of violent crime alone. Culture encompasses a great deal more than that. If you think today's pop music is up there with, say, Cole Porter tunes (which were pop music in the '20s and '30s) then you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't think that Kim & Kourtney Kardashian are helping any more than the remake of Footloose to keep our culture on the cutting edge of TV and film, respectively. I don't live under the myth of "the good old days," but I do think that Americans today seem less excited about creative expression and are content with mindless reality TV and remakes of past movies & TV shows. At the same time, I believe that people have less respect for others, and there is a noticeable downturn in good manners and civility. If you disagree, then that's fine. Good day, Sir.
Not to mention that an isolated incident perpetrated by some ahole is not indicative of the general state of a place like St. Louis or Buffalo. People see this stuff on the news and think cities are nothing but mayhem.
Idea #2(my first idea on other post) for 101 ideas....free patio permits providing within regulations. promote street activity, why nickle and dime small biz owners
I’m really don’t even know where to begin with this, so let me just throw out some points:
First – who says there is a “problem” in the EV? As a resident living steps from Elmwood for 20+ years, I would say that there has been slow, steady improvement in the village. Ups and downs in certain blocks, but overall there has been, and continues to be, progress. And I would say that there has been a noticeable increase in people on the street over the past two years. Could the pace of progress be faster? Sure. But I would rather have slow, steady, and growth instead of rapid growth followed by rapid decline.
Second – I doubt that you would find many people in the EV who would object to becoming more like the examples you cite. But how do we get there? It’s not a few NIMBY’s and a gravel parking lot that are stopping us. What holds us back? I would argue that ponderous permitting and licensing procedures; property owners who expect big rents for Elmwood and are willing to let property sit empty for years (E.g, former Metro/Mode, Off-the-wall, and many other storefronts between Utica and Hodge.); and property owners that are happy to make an easy buck off renting to college students with zero property upkeep (e.g., many of the crap houses between Potomac and Forest) are much bigger impediments than requiring a fence around a patio.
Third - You cite a six-block area as an example. If you condensed all of the businesses from Allen St. to Forest into a six block area, you would have the same vibrancy. For whatever reason, everything in Buffalo is very scattered. And at the same time as entire area of Allentown / Elmwood is trying to grow, it is also competing against those who want growth on Grant St., Amherst St., Hertel, Chippewa, as well as a new downtown and Cobblestone/Canalside. And that’s just competition in the immediate area. Every one of these areas aims to have the same vibrancy of your examples in St. Louis. Without significant growth with either residents or tourists, we can’t take the same number of consumers, spread them over more areas, and expect everything to grow.
Fourth – Like it or not, parking is an issue that holds this area back. I don’t think its coincidence that the most vibrant area of the street is around the hated gravel parking lot. The layout of the streets and off-street parking is not conducive to visitors unfamiliar with the area. The fact that residents take up many off-street spots and that many streets are one-way and dump into Elmwood (Anderson, Breckenridge, St. James, Potomac, and Bird) really limits the off-street parking. With Ashland and Norwood also being one-way, and no parallel street to the east until Delaware, it is not easy to just drive around the block until a spot opens up. We have really, really, big, long blocks that can make it difficult to park anywhere near your destination. It’s a really tough sell to get suburbanites to choose that over the free parking at the mall.
I don't disagree with you except for the parking. I have never parked more than a half block form my destination on Elmwood or Allen. Certainly parking is necessary due to how we have designed our cities only for cars. The thing is you don't use your prime property for parking and gas stations.
I agree, I've never had to park more than a block from anywhere in the city whatsoever. As for gas stations, we need them, however they could certainly be more attractive. Sunoco on Elmwood is pretty decent in terms of setup.
You don't put them on your prime property. From Forest to Utica there are 3 gas stations! Its ridiculous. Maybe citizens should start giving these businesses some trouble?
If the property had a higher and better demand then it would not be a gas station. There just isn't a call for that intese density that we would all love. Not sure anyone would agrue that we would love to see a multi story structure on the site of a gas station.
I hear a lot of Elmwood village chatter against the businesses like Acropolis. I hear no one complaining about the gas stations that are such a blight on the street.
People need gas stations, not souvlaki and dance music. With that said, I agree that the Acropolis situaton is ridiculous and that most if not all the gas stations could use improvement for sure. But they are a necessary evil in any urban envirmonment. Besides, there's plenty of underutilized property and vacant lots I'd rather see developed before removing a gas station that arguably get's more foot and vehicle traffic 24/7 than any other business in E.V.
We don't need gas. We want gas. We need food, we need sleep, we need water. Our "need" for gas is entirely the result of choices. that said Elmwood will never be a truly great street until the gas stations are gone.
Well I need gas to get to work to pay for food and a place to sleep. That's not a choice, it's as necessary as the air I breathe. Unless you're hiring and I can work from home?
That is quite the exaggeration, Elmwood will never be great until there are no gas stations. It is like saying that girl will never be truly beautiful until she is a size two. Don't let perfect be the enemy of great.
No I think an exaggeration is saying you need gas as much as the air you breath
I was trying to exaggerate it, but I don't think you were.
One thing Buffalo has going for it and was mentioned by a couple of people is the relative continuity between downtown/ Allentown and North Buffalo. The neighborhoods are linked together with Elmwood as its major spine. It's a large and extensive area of a relativily healthy urban fabric. Many cities have vibrant pockets such as the ones noted in the post and Elmwood / Allentown / Hertal may not quite live up to the best aspects of each of these pockets but overall, Buffalo has something great. I have heard people from other cities that have twice the population as Buffalo wish that they had an Elmwood Ave and when I gave directions to my inlaws - very urban people with a very negative view of the Buffalo visiting for the first time in decades - to drive from Downtown to the Art Gallery, they were incredibly impressed.
Notice the seating area between the sidewalk and street. The same arrangement exists in downtown Ann Arbor. This allows a streetwall to remain uninterrupted throughout a block.
It's a far more pedestrian-friendly arrangement than in Buffalo, where "temporary" patios project from storefronts onto the sidewalk, thus breaking up the streetwall, distancing pedestrians from storefronts, and interrupting the flow of foot travel down a block.
Exactly. Street side dining is a really nice way to do outdoor cafes. I think it might be illegal in Buffalo
I agree with you Dan. What I love about the St. Louis photos are it seems more organic, like the life inside each restaurant is spilling into the streets. I lived in Chicago and Brooklyn for a while. The thing I like most abut NYC/Brooklyn is that everything spills out into the street. From street vendors to the Christmas trees that are sold. It offers an exciting scale that buffers me from parked cars and the busy streets. While Chicago is obviously urban and larger everything seems to be contained inside stores or behind a fenced area. I feel Buffalo does the same. This would be great for an area like Hertel where the sidewalks are large and the trees are not mature. The street is also quite large when compared to Elmwood. I could see lots of umbrellas lining the edge of the street and some different landscaping that achieves that same scale. This is why I want to see more food trucks in the city of Buffalo, they help create an urban buffer between the sidewalk and the large streets. In Brooklyn I rode my bike for miles just to try to the tacos from one particular food truck. I hope to do the same in Buffalo.
> they help create an urban buffer between the sidewalk and the large streets
Good point! Few seem to understand how food trucks, on-street parking and well-maintained tree lawns psychologically buffer pedestrians from street traffic.
Another thing about street dinign: there's human activity on both sides of pedestrians, making the streets feel even more vibrant.
Street dining would be great for Hertel Avenue. Unfortunately, there's no shortage of temporary and permanent patios (Kostas is the worst offender) that break up the building frontage. There's still hope for other blocks along the street, though, that have been untouched by patios.
To expand on your points (which I agree with), the vibrancy of people spilling onto the sidewalks seems to spur even more vibrancy. Like the old saying, nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd. Even if there's nothing special going on I want to join the party so to speak.
I think Food Trucks will help tremendously in that way, especially in the winter when people are less inclined to stay outdoors. It kind of makes you feel like it's normal and ok to just hang around outside even though it's cold. We need things like that to shake up the mentality of shutting ourselves inside just because its winter.
Like I mentioned in the other post, I wonder if liquor licensing has anything to do with patio fence restrictions to keep better control over serving booze?
I was at Delwarea Park a couple weeks ago and there was a coffee truck there, which drastically helped inhance the feel on walking around. Nothing like a little hot chocolate on a cold winter day to make a guy feel alive.
Gotta love a coffee truck! I had an idea to take one of the larger parking lots in downtown and make into a food truck park (maybe with a bike pavilion so bikers can park n ride downtown). Food trucks can move into the center of the park via small drives creating a central space defined by the trucks themselves. There could be seating that is in the center of this area all year long, but also give the trucks a place to park so restaurants won't complain. Check out the Dekalb Market in Brooklyn. They create cool spaces for vendors of any kind and there is a central outdoor space to sit and listen to the dj from the radio station on site. Let's have some fun and put something in downtown that feels temporary but adds to the life of the city. Food trucks don't have to be just for food, hey could become temporary art galleries, or even a radio station!
Just went to a family wedding in St. Louis this Fall. The wedding was at the City Museum downtown. What a great and fun place with tons of activity going on. www.citymuseum.org
Check it out. It is open on Fri. and Sat. nights until 1:00 AM. The wedding was held in the architectural section. There were tons of people of all ages "playing" in this museum which has outdoor and indoor venues. As part of the wedding, you could wander anywhere in the museum. There is an aquarium part built with all recycled materials, lots of caves and climbing areas both indoors and out, a circus area, an exploratory and participatory art area, a shoelace factory, tons of architectural items and so much more that I didn't have time to see. I would love to see this type of museum in our downtown venue bringing lots of people together of all ages for fun and for celebrations. There were several other weddings and events also going on in this same building. It was mid November and it was a hub of happening going on everywhere around this museum. BTW-just heard St. Louis is moving their Law School downtown too!
My primary idea would be to listen to area residents. Elmwood needs to be what its residents want it to be, with the caveat that it be as dense with residents and businesses as possible. If area residents want live music, we need to find ways to satisfy that demand without alienating the residents that will live right by that establishment. In the case of Acropolis, it sounds like the owner has taken pains to make sure that noise won't leak out into surrounding properties, so that issue will likely resolve itself.
The city needs to make sure that codes get enforced to make sure owners maintain their buildings. A facade grant program would be nice to help owners upgrade some buildings. Eventually, the whole street is going to have to be repaved and sidewalks will need to be replaced. At that point, it might be nice to investigate more interesting and attractive surface choices, like pavers, brick and stone, perhaps landscape bump-outs to make street crossings shorter and collect snow during the winter and rainwater the rest of the time. It would also be nice to have a few more substantial bus stops with heating to make for a better transit waiting environment. The NFTA could also invest in more comfortable articulated or double-decker buses for its Elmwood Route, which goes through the densest part of the city.
Essentially, Elmwood is already great. It needs to focus on being responsive to its customers and continuous improvement, which I think it's already doing.
The University I was referring to is Washington University in St. Louis. I am not sure how you could say it isn't world class. It is ranked 15th, between Johns Hopkins and Brown, on the USNWR ranking. It has 7,000 students and accepts just 21% of applicants.
Also, regarding knockout king, unfortunately this isn't just an isolated incident. http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2011-06-09/news/knockout-king-elex-murphy-hoang-nguyen-dutchtown-murder/
I do agree that size isn't always a factor in vibrant urban districts but even a crappy big city is more likely to have some good urban districts than a crappy small one. I am not saying that St. Louis or Buffalo are crappy so don't read it that way.
I work in higher education--the USNWR rankings are thought to be arbitrary and silly. You get the same education at the "top" 100 schools.
While you may argue the order of the top 25 schools, they do generally represent the schools with the best reputations, most talented student bodies and best resources. I am not saying that you can't get a good education, or one that meets your needs, in the top 100. What is silly though is saying that you get the same education at the top 100 schools.
For example, Harvard is the #1 ranked national universtity. The University of the Pacific in Washington is tied at 101. While I have heard good things about The University of the Pacific, it is ludicrous to believe that a student there gets the same education as a student at Harvard. The professors, facilities, student body and opportunities for graduates don't even warrant comparison.
I don't think that I am bised just because I am a graduate of #12.
I've taught at Yale, Univ. of Toronto and UB. The education is the same.
Reposting from 1-25-12 6:39 PM:
One matter that could be making St. Louis, MO dangerous where Buffalo, NY is not is not only that the winter cold in Buffalo, NY keeps crime down, but also that the houses keep coming down... whats of interest here is how those food trucks are going to fare. resent 1-26-12 1:35 PM
Wow..what a comment..the need for gas is the result of a choice...bud..gas is needed, end of story.
On that note (gas stations included) I've stated before that Buffalo's commercial districts lack the "Polish" that other cities and districts have had for some time. (Ala Walgreens on Kenmore/Delaware for the multiple gas stations on Elmwood..there are quite a few by the way..agreeing with you there)
Flower bulbs are CHEAP...power washing your sidewalks is CHEAP...picking up trash is FREE...removing peeling paint and repainting is CHEAP..are you seeing the theme here? There are sidewalks on Elmwood that on certain days resemble Chippewa street on a Saturday morning..I wanna go home and wash the bottom of my sneakers.
Buffalo has got a lot of great things going for it but never seems to go all the way. (Whether thats the mayor or store owners) If there is an upcoming "vibrancy" initiative then start with the small stuff...grit/grime aren't authentic and DO not lead to a better experience.
I agree all the gas stations can certainly use an overhaul but no more than rite-aid, wilson farms, any of the chinese food restaurants, etc. By Steel's logic we should remove the Chinese food places because we don't "need" them and their in poor condition.
Where did I say we should remove things we don't 'need'?
I will save you the trouble. I never said that. I said that gas stations are inappropriate on Elmwood Avenue. I think they should be gotten rid of as soon as possible and should not be located anywhere from downtown until it turns into a sprawling mess in north Buffalo.
You said "Elmwood will never be a truly great street until the gas stations are gone" and "they should be gotten rid of." I am fairly certain they mean the same thing.
Brownteeth > By Steel's logic we should remove the Chinese food places because we don't "need"...
I never said we should get rid of every place we don't need. Your debate tactics are getting childish. I said we should get rid of the gas stations on Elmwood. They look crappy and require big breaks in the street scape for asphalt and curb cuts. I don't know how you jump from gas stations to Chinese restaurants. Elmwood should push for the highest quality businesses that promote a contiguous vibrant walkable street environment. Parking lots and business which do not respect the city and their neighbors should be discouraged. I am not sure why that should be controversial or how it gets translated into eliminating Chinese restaurants.
>should not be located anywhere from downtown until it turns into a sprawling mess in north Buffalo"
So all vehicle owners living between Downtown and North Buffalo should have to waste time and gas traveling TO a gas station?
You're losing credibility.
Yes they should. The number of gas stations in Buffalo is ridiculous. Within downtown and easy walking distance of Browteeth's house are 4 gas stations. Withing the Elmwood Village there are 6 more gas stations. People in the city have to travel a fraction of the distance a typical suburbanite drives for gas. It is time that the Elwood Village Association start agitating to get rid of these obnoxious street killers instead of places like Acropolis.
I certainly agree that the number and placement of gas stations is ridiculous. One major problem, I believe, is that the cost of site remediation (e.g. properly removing the giant gas tanks buried under the stations) is quite expensive. Probably means the stations are stuck there (or vacant) until the land becomes worth more or the city decides to subsidize redevelopment.
On the path between my workplace downtown (where my car is required for travel amongst locations) and my sourthernmost-North Buffalo home is exactly one gas station. Who are you to say that other people should waste resources to suit your sensibilities? Such pomposity.
And the number of gas stations is only ridiculous if they are being subsidized. The market determines the number and general location. On today's Elmwood Avenue it would be better if the gas stations weren't on the main drag, but mostly they are holdovers from the years (not many ago) when the strip was dying and they provided much of the business activity on the street. With their infrastructure, they are not easily moved.
Yea OK Buffalo is the only city that needs 4 gas stations per mile. Lets not try to do any better because we need them like oxygen (in Buffalo). I am sure that is a great path into the future for Buffalo "Brow beat Acropolis but make sure we don't have to drive an extra few blocks for gas."
What does that even mean? Who in this conversation is opposed to Acropolis? I'm as annoyed at that situation as you. I'm more pissed at the length of time it took to solve the Food Truck debate and things like that to worry about multiple gas stations on one street. Pick your battles man.
It's not just about me here. There's plenty of reasons why multiple similar businesses are located near each other and are successful. We tend to think of Elmwood as a straight line but people criss cross Elmwood from all directions. In their daily or random routes they might only pass a single gas station and if you're hauling kids or in a hurry, you will stop where it's convenient and safe. On my way to work every day I only pass by one so in my little bubble I only have one gas station to utilize.
I'm not disagreeing with the fact they're ugly or ruin the urban environment from the void in the building density they cause, but you can't honestly tell me they're not needed on a busy commercial strip like Elmwood.
I agree with you gas stations are great. Buffalo close at hand and should not try to make the street any better as a pedestrian experience. You have convinced me that gas station convenience is the best Buffalo can do and that driving a care with absolute ease is all that people should expect out of Buffalo.
I agree with you and brownteeth that "gas stations are great" (just think of all involved in getting oil from deep in the earth into our cars in a form that lest us get around to so many places - awesome!)
...but the rest of all that doesn't look anything close to what brownteeth wrote.
"should not try to make the street any better as a pedestrian experience"?
Who said anything like that? He even noted in an earlier comment the Sunoco (presumably the one at Hodge) is better than most.
"driving a car with absolute ease is all that people should expect out of Buffalo"
Huh? All that people should expect? Classic straw man.
>You have convinced me that gas station convenience is the best Buffalo can do and that driving a care with absolute ease is all that people should expect out of Buffalo.
Wow, if that's the case, it makes you wonder what all those posts he wrote were all about.
I'll take the noise and PEOPLE over crappy parking lots and empty sidewalks any day!!! C'mon Buffalo- Let's embrace CHANGE!!!
I definitely agree with people saying the sidewalk seating would look great on hertel I'd also like to see it on main street as well. Elmwood doesn't have enough room in most spots :( something else I liked the sound of is them trying to get a trolly running again. I'd like to see something like that here as well running down elmwood and looping around at buff state. It would be nice to have it run to hertel as well if possible and seasonally run down parkside to the zoo.
Brownteeth > By Steel's logic we should remove the Chinese food places because we don't "need"...
I never said we should get rid of every place we don't need. Your debate tactics are getting childish. I said we should get rid of the gas stations on Elmwood. They look crappy and require big breaks in the street scape for asphalt and curb cuts. I don't know how you jump from gas stations to Chinese restaurants. Elmwood should push for the highest quality businesses that promote a contiguous vibrant walkable street environment. Parking lots and business which do not respect the city and their neighbors should be discouraged. I am not sure why that should be controversial or how it gets translated into eliminating Chinese restaurants.
Is it the gas stations themselves you do not like or the layout / design of them?
I agree that most of the gas stations look crappy but I would rather they be overhauled than completely removed. Although you do not drive most of us do. These are ammenities any urban area needs to keep it sustainable. This isn't 1880, people in cities drive cars and gas stations are part of the package to keep this area as dense as it is. Further, all but one of the EV gas stations also sell daily essentials aside from gas.
My point about the Chinese restaurants was simply that they are in just as poor condition as most gas stations and I don't eat Chinese food, so where do you draw the line for removing businesses based on aesthetics and personal need?
Gas stations do not make cities sustainable. I don't understand how you come to that conclusion. There are four gas stations on Elmwood Avenue within less than a mile. That is ridiculous! There are several more within just a few blocks. The best cities do not litter there best neighborhoods with sprawl like this. Elmwood is one of the few viable walkable shopping areas in the city it should not be broken up with giant slabs of asphalt every block or two. If you can't see the problem with that I won't be able to convince you over the internet.
As for the crummy looking Chinese restaurants. Maybe the people of the Elmwood Village should be complaining about property owners and businesses who do not invest in there product rather than the ones like Acropolis which have.
The way I see it is that in a city like mine, gasoline is a daily neccessity like food, water, housing, clothes, etc. I know you keep pushing the whole "it's a choice" platform but it's really not. I, and thousands like me, need to get to work to pay for our urban lifestyles. How can we do this if you abolish all the gas stations in our neighborhood?
I know there's quite a few for such a small stretch but there are also a lot of pizzerias, bars, greek diners, liquor stores, etc too. For such a relatively small area, you would think there's too many of those same businesses for the popluation to continually support, but they do anyway. Obviously there's a demand for multiple gas stations or they would close down. If that's what the market dictated then I would be fine with that.
As for sustainability, I use it in terms of how an area is sufficiently self contained, where I can get everything I need in a couple block radius. It sustains our lifestyles without having to travel far. It keeps our daily needs within arms reach and that creates a less stressful lifestyle.
I would think moving gas stations outside the most populated neighborhood would actually contribute to sprawl in a sense. Why make people travel to get what they need? And what about the people who buy other goods from those establisments every day?
I would agree that we could stand to lose one or two of the ugliest ones and it would be great if the others were reconfigured to make them more pedestrian / urban friendly.
You have 4 gas stations in downtown alone to choose from. Another 6 are just up the street in Elmwood Village. I think Buffalo could easily do with fewer gas stations.
I do understand that you work in the suburbs and thus are tied to a car. We have destroyed our cities and made them sprawl dependent. I get that. I don't accept it as a given though. Apologizing for what is is different than advocating for a smarter way of doing something. You can acknowledge that something is f*cked up. That does not mean it has to stay that way. Erie County and NYS are currently planning on dumping an additional $30M into a sprawl boondoggle of a new building in Amherst. That will lock in hundreds of people to driving to school and work for another 40 years minimum. Why? because a crew of stone age suburban administrators thing that the suburbs are the only viable place to build. As long as they are not challenged we will continue to dilute WNY's declining resources with 1950s thinking. The same goes for Elmwood Avenue. The premier walkable shopping street is damaged by gas stations. It does not need gas stations. They are antithetical to what makes it attractive.No one is going to be so inconvenienced if they have to drive two more blocks to Main Street to buy gas. Making hyperbolic claims about needed air to breath and eliminating all Chinese restaurants if gas stations are moved off Elmwood is silly.
How did this become about sprawl? Do you equate cars with sprawl? I know my job requires traveling by car but I would have one regardless. I get more accomplished because I have control over how I get from place to place. But that's besides the point here.
You're right, Buffalo could do with fewer gas stations. But let's pick our battles here. You and I know there's way bigger issues than a couple gas stations that break up the building density. I have more of a problem with their condition and appearance then the purpose they serve.
Yes cars are the source of sprawl and accommodating them has ruined many American cities
Cars have been around in mass use since the '20's. I'd blame the ending of WW2 and the return of the troops at the time for the initial cause of sprawl as well as the rise of crime in cities later on more than anything else, cars just made it easier to get around.
I think you severely missed my whole point about the gas stations. If I could go back in time and had control over the situation, I would not allow that many of them on a strip like Elmwood. However I can't and what's done is done. I'm only talking in the present tense here and we can't constantly lament over past mistakes, it's counterproductive.
My other point was that just because you don't see the value in them does not mean others don't. There's plenty of other repeat businesses that over saturate a condensed area could arguably be done away with too. I can't even count how many pizzerias we have in the city, most of which are run down and have the same parking lots / setbacks that gas stations do. But where do you draw the line on existing business' appearance and their integration with their surroundings?
I think we probably have a more similar vision for what Buffalo could be than you think. The difference is that I tend to be more open minded to what people want and need daily in order to make this particular city livable. There has to be give and take with urban amenities in a mid-sized city like Buffalo where cars are more critical to daily life for the majority of residents than walking. That is a simple fact whether we like it or not.
Also, please stop putting words in my mouth. I never said 6 gas stations on Elmwood were necessary, just that they obviously serve a purpose.
Like you, I hate parking lots for the sake of them. However, if they're attached to a flourishing business in the city like a restaurant, market, hotel, store, etc. I can tolerate them. It's quite evident though, that you hate cars in any setting, which is your prerogative I guess.
Feel free to argue all you want about how you don't like the gas stations on Elmwood. But the people who actually live there evidently appreciate them, since there are that many up and running. There is a demand for them. So there you go, there's nothing else you can say.
Yes you are right we should keep gas stations on Elmwood because they are certainly an enhancement to Buffalo's prime commercial urban street
Well, why don't you go picket in front of them? Just be careful that the locals pulling in and out of the stations don't run over your foot.
I had a buddy from medical school who I gave a tour of Buffalo to. Overall, he was surprised by the city, particularly the nice parts of North Buffalo. He was impressed by Elmwood as well. He knew I was a big Buffalo booster, but wasn't expecting that there would be any substance to my claims that Buffalo was actually a nice city.
For the sake of balance I took him through the East Side as well to show him our ghetto (does anyone else do that with their out of town guests?) He said while our run down parts of town are pretty bad, he wasn't that impressed and thought that we could learn a thing or two about urban decay from St Louis.
Pamp> "For the sake of balance I took him through the East Side as well to show him our ghetto (does anyone else do that with their out of town guests?)"
I've taken people to E Side attractions like Scharf's, the Larkin Dist, and the Broadway market but that was more to show the town off than to to provide balance.
But I do believe in your point to put the bad with the good so we don't lose our sense of balance. That's why whenever I have a date, job interview, or otherwise have to make a good first impression; I sport flip-flops, sweats, and don't brush my teeth or bathe.
I could dress up and groom myself for these occasions like delusional wishful thinkers, but I believe the lounge around the house look projects more of a balanced image.
Well, he wanted to see the bad part of town. We had the discussion about there only being one city in the US having more abandoned structures per capita than Buffalo, namely St Louis.
So what did your out of town visitors think of the East Side?
Bad parts of town are part of life in mid size to large cities so nobody was really impressed or offended with the hard hit parts of the East Side. The destinations like the ones I mentioned have been impressive to those I have showed them to.
I just don't get why a "Buffalo booster" would feel the need to "balance" Elmwood by showing guests the ghetto. Take people to the E Side for the good things not the bad.
Oh wow, I can only imagine the reaction if anybody in the wrong imaginary crew ever used not bathing as an analogy for visiting any of Buffalo's neighborhoods, lol
I suppose it's cool to say something like that only if someone has attained a high level of pro-Buffalo cred!
Allow me to put the internet lawyer pants on for a sec...
Nope. Never said not bathing was an analogy to visiting Buffalo's neighborhoods. I refer the court to exhibit A, my comment above. In this statement I simply express my fondness for 3 east side attractions and agree with pamp's interest in balance using my dress and hygiene habits for special occasions as an example.
Nowhere did I make the connection that not bathing was in any way related to visiting Buffalo's neighborhoods. You saying I did say this is just another example of delusional, bs, cartoonish, personalized lies and mind reading.
You don't know me! Argggggggg! (shakes fist at the sky)
Remember this?
>You may not like or agree with me calling people anti-Buffalo but when I do so, it is based on what they contribute, not my imagination.
I may draw reasonable conclusions based on what people have written in other discussions but that isn't any different your spin on Burch's "toilet bowl" remark in the ECC discussion.
So he can't do this, but you can?
We both can. The above comment was a joke pointing fun at the fact whatever feels that I have to limit myself to specific comment words when I am critical of he or his friends while he is free to interpret comments any way he pleases. I would have thought the lawyer remark and the fist shaking would have made the humor in that comment clear.
ket>"pointing fun at the fact whatever feels that I have to limit myself to specific comment words…"
There's no "have to limit"s of course, …
just that I couldn't resist noting a similarity between that pervious burch remark compared to your very casual (what looks like) analogy about not bathing, which I'm sure wasn't intended as a literal or bashing toward the E Side.
Fair enough.
All I'm saying is - maybe, just maybe - it's similar to how saying toilet bowl in reference to 1950s waterfront perhaps also wasn't intended to be taken in a literal or bashing way, but yet that one was interpreted as bashing toward present day Buffalo.
Similar, no?
What it boils down to is some are put on a very short leash on here while on the other hand you grant a lot of slack to yourself and some others who coincidentally happen to agree with you on issues (maybe super aggressive preservation, subsidizing city businesses, total unfairness of sprawl, …?)
For example, the gas station critic above, no matter what he ever says he'd never get assigned into a bash-Buffalo crew along with burch - and his Buffalo-booster credentials would never be questioned as you did to pampin - lifetime immunity for some reason, lol/shrug
I was just putting you on the same kind of short leash a couple times about the bathing comment and the previous good/great thing - just to show how silly the double standard looks to me - just for fun.
Whatever> "What it boils down to is some are put on a very short leash on here while on the other hand you grant a lot of slack to yourself and some others who coincidentally happen to agree with you on issues..."
Yep. People who generally agree with me on other issues get more slack than those who don't. For example, I didn't give Steel a hard time for his seemingly anti Buffalo remark about obstructionists being the cause of lower density than in St Louis in the comment thread above. That's partly because I generally agree with him on other issues and his overwhelming body of work of pro Buffalo comments and posts.
Burch's toilet bowl remark was different both because of the obvious negative association of several images of Buffalo's urban vitality with a receptacle of excrement and his record of typically negative and childish remarks here directed at the city and those who voice favor towards it (you can repeat "50s waterfront" as much as you like. The TB remark didn't come out until after I marveled at the vitality in the entire album).
Maybe it's unfair to treat people differently based on their oft expressed views. But like many other things you criticize me of, you do the exact same thing. That means you are not in any position to complain about these things when I do them.
"People who generally agree with me on other issues get more slack than those who don't."
Yes, I find that amusingly close to the very definition of group think - which is usually said to be a bad thing, like MSNBC-style hyper partisanship.
ket>"... you do the exact same thing"
Nope, I'm always above that.
Just kidding.
Although group think is lame/lazy, I won't claim to always be perfectly free of it.
Still, at least I'd like to think I pretty much always consider ideas impartially on merits regardless of who's saying them.
Even just with other two we've mentioned, I'm sure I disagreed with pampin about proactive demo of all elevators, and argued vs burch not long ago about development amounts. No extra slack to them, nor from them to me, at least those times. No idea who I'd be group-thinking on here with, but if I ever am, I shouldn't.
ket>"That means you are not in any position to complain about these things when I do them."
hmm, perhaps no less than you were in a position to point out (a.k.a. complain) about burch's toilet, or pampin's e side tour/balancing, or...
even about me, like complaining my so-called fiscal attitude (inconsistent or hypocritical, was it?) about spending in burbs, etc.
For good or bad, by commenting we're all granting anyone else a position to comment about our comments. Nature of the blog beast.
Whatever> "Yes, I find that amusingly close to the very definition of group think - which is usually said to be a bad thing, like MSNBC-style hyper partisanship."
There is a difference between favoring those who share common viewpoints and thinking purely as a group. I generally share similar views with some here but those views are based on my experiences not theirs.
Whatever> " Still, at least I'd like to think I pretty much always consider ideas impartially on merits regardless of who's saying them."
I don't doubt you think this, but I think you are kidding yourself if you think you don't treat comments differently depending on who is making them. You'll be critical of the way I post comments yet freely make similar comments and/or not object when your BRO friends make similar comments towards me.
Whetever> "Nature of the blog beast."
Of course. People can say whatever they want. I'm just saying those who don't practice what they preach have no authority to be critical of people who do the same things they do. Someone making a strawman argument to accuse someone else of making a strawman is free to do so. It just doesn't mean much.
ket>"There is a difference between favoring those who share common viewpoints and thinking purely as a group."
Yes, that's why I wrote 'close to' rather than something like 'the same as'.
The 'favoring' sounds like a proactive shortcut to group think based on commenter name rather than comment. For example, if the name is you-know-who, then perhaps it can't ever possibly be labeled bashing Buffalo no matter what negative words he might write? (rhetorical question I suppose)
I'd say if favoring goes across separate topics is when it looks even more lame. Like hypothetically, if past views about sprawl topics then affects whether who is or isn't labeled a Buffalo basher, or as pro-demolition, etc. At that point it looks like how political party partisans attack with broad labels rather than issue by issue.
ket>"if you think you don't treat comments differently…"
Like I said, I think I do it objectively 'pretty much always'. I'd never claim perfection in anything unless joking. Falling into anything similar to group think is something I try to consciously avoid as much as I can, offline or on. I still think it's dumb and can deserve critique even though many or most people fall into it sometimes,
As for 'and/or not object' - plenty of times I don't write objection to your comments even if I see and think them objectionable. To its credit, this blog gets way too many articles and comments than can be replied to pro or con.
exactly except he was complaining that driving a few extra blocks for gas was too much of a bother
Well, what does it matter to you except to upset your idealized idea of what Elmwood should be. I don't live there and frankly don't care how many gas stations they have there, I don't understand why you do either.
Well that is sad for you I guess.
I agree with STEEL on the lack of continuity in the Elmwood Village business district. There are too many dead zones along Elmwood mostly rundown rental houses that need major repairs and yes four gas stations. That is ridiculous. But in order to end this preference for automobiles, the US has to start making deep cuts into the generous highway subsidies and invest in public transit both buses and light rail. We also need to make Buffalo a more business friendly city and attract companies both big and small. Now one thing that sets St Louis apart from Buffalo and most other older northern American cities is the fact that it is an independent city which means that it is not part of any county. St Louis permanently seceded from St Louis County in 1876 but by the 1950s, this helped isolate the 61 square mile city even more from its suburbs and made its urban problems even worse. St Louis County has strongly opposed any efforts for the city to rejoin the county and the State of Missouri has blocked the city's efforts through legislation. Buffalo at least is part of a county so at least there is a faint possibility that the city and many of its suburbs could consolidate. St Louis has zero possibility of ever expanding its city limits due to opposition from both St Louis County and the State of Missouri forever confining it to its football shaped 61 square miles.
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I have NEVER seen Elmwood looking this vibrant. Again, I want to dine here. Thanks Steel!