City January 25, 2012 9:50 AM

Road Trip: People Packed Streets, St. Louis Style #1

Road Trip: People Packed Streets, St. Louis Style #1
Recently I took a long weekend vacation to St. Louis with the family.  St. Louis is one of those places, like Buffalo, that is not thought of as place to go for a vacation.  It is thought of as one of America's 'down at the heals', 'no longer worthwhile' older cities. But, contrary to popular opinion St. Louis is actually a fascinating and often beautiful city.  I had been planning a few stories on St. Louis since last summer when we took this trip but had not gotten around to it.  

With the recent controversy over music at Elmwood's Acropolis restaurant and the comments that appeared on BRO I thought it would be relevant now to show how this other historic city handles its retail districts.

Buffalo and St. Louis are sister cities in many  respects.  They are both cities that played a great part in the western expansion of the nation and each spent most of the 20th century on the list of 10 biggest cities in the US.  They each share a tremendous pedigree architecturally. St Louis is home to the Guaranty building' s sister tower the Wainright.  Each of these buildings are held up as the height of Louis Sullivan's architectural genius and both came close to being demolished.  As a metro St. Louis is approximately two times that of metro Buffalo, but physically and historically the cities are similar.  Like Buffalo, St. Louis spent most or the second half of the 20th century trying to eliminate everything that was built prior.  Also like Buffalo, St. Louis was very successful in that effort.  

Today, vast areas of the once extremely dense St. Louis have been leveled for parking or just plain empty lots.  Urban renewal in the city began in ernest in the 1950's when a massive portion of the riverfront was leveled for construction of the Gateway Arch and its surrounding park.  Since then St. Louis has declined sharply, destroying large parts of the city in the process. Although St. Louis continues to decline over broad areas, it also has several neighborhoods showing dramatic improvement which are lively and dense with beautiful houses and popular retail and entertainment districts.  One of these extremely popular neighborhoods is called Central West End.

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Central West End (CWE) is a  compact neighborhood which is mostly made up of large masonry victorian houses, a handful of high-rise condo buildings and some large institutions. The neighborhood sits just north and east of the city's massive Forest Park.  At the core of the neighborhood is a very dense very, beautiful handful of commercial blocks.  These blocks would be equivalent in size to perhaps three Elmwood Blocks (with much less auto traffic).  They hold about 50 to 60 businesses, approximately 20 of which are restaurants.  The restaurants dominate the scene, and there are sidewalk cafes teeming with people.  The feel is reminiscent of the wonderful streets of European cities.  The activity is all framed with a grogeous set of buildings which are well maintained.  Just off the commercial streets can be found peaceful and immaculate residential streets lined with large trees and filled with elegant victorian houses.  These streets are open to the public but are privately owned by the residents who pay for their maintenance (this is a very common tradition for upper end neighborhoods in St Louis which were developed in the early 20th century).  The blocks to the south hold larger high rise buildings including an elegant 1 million square foot historic hotel. 

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There is nothing as nice as this neighborhood in Buffalo.  There... I said it - but that is just a fact (for now).  CWE's commercial district is not interrupted by large parking lots.  The street fronts are contiguous and continuous.  The only parking lot of any substance is tucked out of site behind the buildings.  While there I was not even aware of this parking lot and I notice that a new building has recently filled in part of it.  There are no gas stations or convenience stores set back from the road behind a sea of asphalt.  All the properties are in great condition and the businesses clean the streets and sidewalks every day.  The stores and restaurants are sophisticated and professional in appearance and look as if they are updated regularly.  Most importantly of all the density of use is what makes this part of St. Louis so engaging.  The restaurants are lined up one after another and they pack the narrow sidewalks with their cafes one after another.  The pictures I have included give only a hint of how delightful this part of St. Louis is. To be sure this is not the norm in St. Louis but it is certainly something other cities should be emulating.

I think that Buffalo could easily replicate the wonderful urban atmosphere of the Central West End, especially on Elmwood and on Allen.  However, as good as they are, Elmwood and especially Allen Street do not come close to meeting their full potential as urban commercial districts.  These two streets are tremendously important to the future growth and attractiveness of Buffalo and all the power of local citizens and government should be focused on the success of these places.  Demographic trends are pointing clearly to the need for cities to be lively, dense, and urban in order to attract young talent. Is Buffalo willing to be that kind of city? I am not so sure sometimes.

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Any neighborhood which is intensively used by diverse groups will experience tensions between various interests.  But walking around the St Louis neighborhood I had a sense that everyone in the neighborhood understood the benefits of cooperation and that the residential and that commercial interests are ultimately the same - preservation of the quality of the neighborhood.   I don't always get that sense with Buffalo and the Elmwood Village residents and businesses. With regard to Acropolis  I am too far removed from the issue to make a fair judgment on the presentation by BRO and its commenters' pros and cons.  That being said, if Acropolis is the source of noxious noise and rowdyism something should be done fix the problem.  But, with this Acropolis debate and others like it, I get the sense that there is a core group of people who don't really want Elmwood to be any better than it is now either from the business side or the residential side.  Perhaps people think this is as good as it can be in Buffalo. 

There are so many real issues to fix on Elmwood. I wish the Elmwood Village Association would work to get rid of the gravel parking lot south of Auburn for instance.  There are owners who don't maintain their buildings with rotting roofs in plain sight.  I could find a a few dozen residential buildings falling apart that are more detrimental to the neighborhood than Acropolis would be even if it is noisy and rowdy.  Buffalo needs Elmwood village to be many times more busy that it is now.  Great cities need dense highly active commercial districts. As nice as Elmwood is, it is not good enough yet.  I get the feeling that there are many selfish people who don't want any change.  Buffalo needs change in big doses - good is not good enough IMHO.

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I have been to St. Louis a number of times and have always been amazed on how similar the architecture, housing and residents are to that of Buffalo. I wish developers and city planners can look at what has been done to urban areas around the country and cut through bureaucracy and achieve major results. Friends from around the country still talk about how this city played cat and mouse with Bass Pro before taking matters into their own hands. The Inner Harbor is finally a destination point for a summers' day. Our downtown is still a ghost town after 5pm.

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As I look at this, this will never happen on Elmwood because its too set in stone....but Main St, Grant St, Amherst St can more easily relate to this street in St. Louis. Main street is perfect because there has been no traffic so there are no parking lots and the sidewalks are very wide. You may have small sections on Amherst and Grant compared to Main St. I really do feel that Main street will begin to recover especially when Canalside is created. This style can also be incorporated now as its simply tables to the curb, simple plantings, and colorful umbrellas. It sounds a lot cheaper than reformatting main street for car traffic. This style of planning for Main street would make it more marketable to many new restaurants and other stores.
I'd rather see Main street turn into more of a community street like Elmwood, rather than a business center street like people try to make it out to be...Main street is dull. The pictures above are the opposite of dull.

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Notice that in St. Louis you can have a sidewalk cafe that is set up at the sidewalk edge and they don't need to be fenced in like a cow pasture. This is the best way to use a sidewalk. It creates a very lively atmosphere. THis would be illegal in Buffalo

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That's a really cool feature that generates some interesting street activity. Too bad that sort of thing isn't allowed here.

replied to STEEL
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Steel,

With all due respect, I need to interject some reality...

Top 10 Most Dangerous Cities in United States in 2010

St. Louis, Missouri
Camden, New Jersey
Detroit, Michigan
Flint, Michigan
Oakland, California
Richmond, California
Cleveland, Ohio
Compton, California
Gary, Indiana
Birmingham, Alabama

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So you are saying that this kind of urban space causes crime? Wow, I should have been more careful when I was there. Thanks for the warning. I bet they could fix that problem by tearing down all the old buildings in this neighborhood.

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Not at all - I am pointing out that Buffalo exceeds St Louis where you are making a comparison that places the City of Buffalo beneath St Louis.

St Louis has been cited as the murder capital of this country so I certainly would not be handing –out tourist brochures.

replied to STEEL
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I don't get what your point is. I am not talking about crime. I am talking about this particular neighborhood which probably has very low crime and which Buffalo would do well to replicate.

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Also your concern over crime rates in St. Louis is the same simplistic broad brush thinking that keeps many WNY suburbanites from ever coming in to Buffalo. You seem to be the proof in my opening paragraph.

Buffalo is certainly a very nice city - better that most people know - but to say it has nothing to learn from other places including St. Louis is a narrow attitude which will likely lead to lost opportunities.

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I don't get your point either.

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In Cleveland's case, that "danger" is mostly constrained to struggling East Side neighborhoods. Go Downtown, to the West Side, or the few remaining stable East Side neighborhoods (Larchmere/Shaker Square, University Circle/Little Italy, E 185th, Mill Creek), and it'll be as safe as the equivalent neighbohoods in Buffalo.

The City of Cleveland has fewer stable middle/upper middle class areas like North Buffalo and Parkside, but more stable blue-collar neighborhoods similar to Kaisertown and Lovejoy. If, after WWII, Buffalo's slums grew into the West Side and North Buffalo, while the East Side and South Buffalo remained stable, the result would look very similar to the City of Cleveland today.

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Really, who thinks St. Louis is a down trodden city? There are many American cities that seem interesting but I'll probably never get to for one reason or another, including this one. Also, St. Louis has NFL, NHL, & MLB teams, not that sports teams are an arbiter of a city's status, but still, St. Louis is in a different category than Buffalo.

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Saint Louis is a fantastic and beautiful city. And it's home to Washington University, which has pumped billions into the city and its well regarded Medical Center.

I went to school there for 4 years and never was bothered by any crime. The worst thing is the heat in the summer. Like DC, very humid and oppressive.

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Like this! Great pix -- thanks for sharing. I've often mused that Delaware Avenue could become like this, from Downtown all the way to North.

How to see more of this in Buffalo--? I think it's a mix of increasing economic density (people, $$, per sq. mi.) in the parts of the city that have the buildings and streets that lend themselves to this kind of mixed use, combined with better regulation, enforcement, and economic development policy.

About visiting St. Louis: can you walk across the Eads Bridge on either the upper or lower levels--?

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My main point for this story is to ask if the people of Buffalo really want a dense lively city or just the idea of one. Because it seems like every proposal to build on success in the Elmwood area has a gang of hootin and hallerin neighbors who like things just as they are gravel parking lots rotting buildings and all.

Alo,
Don't know about the bridge.

replied to RaChaCha
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Bit of a dramatic overstatement. Debate about what is best for a neighborhood or city is good. Apathy would get us...Bass Pro.

replied to STEEL
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Perhaps but the noise from the anti everything on Elmwood is getting louder and louder.

However, even if we concede that the people trying to stop the Elmwood Hotel, the new Gates apartment building,Starbucks,Panos, Acropolis are correct (and I do believe that often they are correct especially in the case of Panos)Where is the noise which complains about decrepit buildings and gravel parking lots?

replied to Joe E.V.
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You're right about that. It's not just Elmwood but every damn thing; food trucks, canal side, chippewa, cobblestone, etc. These may be small issues by themselves but as a whole they are major game changers in a smaller city like ours.

The big problem I see is that no one pulls the trigger (or is allowed to) to just make it happen when it comes to issues like food trucks and Acropolis. These aren't going to destroy anything if the city were to just say yes and move forward on them. People will always be pissed for one reason or another but if developers can get away with sunday demo's why can't other entrepenuers get away with just starting or growing a business without total b.s. involved every time?

One note though about the condition of St. Louis buildings vs ours. I don't believe they have the harsh winters we do which may be part of why their buildings are in better condition overall.

replied to STEEL
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Don't get me wrong. I am talking about this neighborhood's buildings. In general St. Louis is a wreck with many destroyed neighborhoods. Although,you still may be correct about the weather. Also, St. Louis is almost all masonry to Buffalo's almost all wood. This makes a big difference in building durability and ability to withstand bad ownership.

replied to brownteeth
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Like this! Great pix -- thanks for sharing. I've often mused that Delaware Avenue could become like this, from Downtown all the way to North.

How to see more of this in Buffalo--? I think it's a mix of increasing economic density (people, $$, per sq. mi.) in the parts of the city that have the buildings and streets that lend themselves to this kind of mixed use, combined with better regulation, enforcement, and economic development policy.

About visiting St. Louis: can you walk across the Eads Bridge on either the upper or lower levels--?

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The first thing I noticed were not the people but the trees... They really do finish and frame a street. Now think of Main Street, Hertel, Elmwood Amherst... there are few trees anywhere.

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I noticed that too, looks more like Delaware ave to me.

replied to sbrof
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steel> There are owners who don't maintain their buildings with rotting roofs in plain sight. I could find a a few dozen residential buildings falling apart that are more detrimental to the neighborhood than Acropolis would be even if it is noisy and rowdy.

Quoted for truth. Urbanists and cicic leaders in many cities throughout the country would love to have a neighborhood with the vitality of Elmwood Village or Allentown. However, both neigborhoods are still quite rough arond the edges, physically speaking. Buffalo's homers might put a positive spin on the blight, calling it "grit" and "authenticity". Still, you just don't see anywhere near the same percentage of distressed or run-down properties in neighborhoods comparable to any of the EV nodes or Allentown in cities like Minneapolis, St. Paul, Denver, Columbus, Portland, and the like. Compared to similar neighborhoods in other cities, EV and Allentown still feel like they're in the early stages of "up and coming", looking like they've got a long way to go before they've truly arrived.

Maybe it's a Rust Belt thing. Ohio City and Tremont in Cleveland, and Southside Flats in Pittsburg, are said to be "gentrified", but like EV, they feel a bit tired and worn, and lack the polish of peer neighborhoods in the Midwest and West. Ohio City, like Allentown, has been "gentrifying" for nearly 30 years, yet it's still quite rough.

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I love St. Louis. I lived in there for a summer on Lindell Blvd. just beyond the Central West End. I went to a coffee shop on Maryland and Euclid in the CWE everyday to study, which is where most of these photos were taken. Maryland is arguably the nicest street in the CWE.

The commercial area of the Central West End is located along Euclid and also on few different streets that branch off from Euclid. These include Maryland, McPherson and Forest Park. The CWE is more of a node than a strip like Elmwood. The pedestrian walking along Euclid between the different branches passes gravel lots, parking lots, and some run-down buildings. From my observation, the Central West End is also probably LESS lively than the Elmwood Village. It's a pretty genteel part of town where the very affluent live and as pointed out, it doesn't directly abut other successful neighborhoods, whereas in Buffalo, Allentown abuts Elmwood which isn't really all that far from Hertel which is just a stone's throw from Kenmore.

Also, one of the biggest difference between St. Louis and Buffalo is that St. Louis has private streets that enforce neighborhood standards. Many of the streets in the Central West End are gated and some are even off limits, which can make the area frustrating to get around. There are also precisely zero loud bars in the Central West End. Those kinds of things happen in other parts of the city like the Delmar Loop, Manchester or along South Grand.

replied to Dan
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But almost all of these restaurants do have bars in them some are even defined as such like the drunken fish and Bar Louie (which is a Chicago Chain I believe and does not take its name from St. Louis) Cul Peppers advertises itself as a bar and grill etc. I don't know how buy this neighborhood is during the day but at dinner time it is far busier than I have ever seen Elmwood unless there is a festival going on.. I would also note that there are some very large very tall buildings in this area and they do not seem to detract form the residential quality. There is also a strip of very high end mansions which are directly across the street from a strip of restaurants that creates a very distinctive and very attractive urban setting seemingly without issue. One big advantage of this area is that all the streets are slow moving one lane in each direction.

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Yeah, there are bars, but they're certainly not loud. I don't think Acropolis will be loud either, so I'm sure that issue will resolve itself. However there seem to people who think Elmwood needs to be louder in order to increase its vitality. With the kind of demographic that surrounds Elmwood, I don't think that would be useful. I'm surprised people are so eager to alienate area homeowners who have made significant investments in historic properties that require a very dedicated homeowner. The really lively/loud stuff should go to Grant or Genessee or something. It's an opportunity to increase the vitality of a new area that can skew a bit younger/single. The CWE may be a bit more lively at night than Elmwood, but it is very subdued during the day.

The highrises in the CWE are also nice and do contribute. The Elmwood Area could benefit from a few more, though I would point out that Delaware already has several comparable highrises, and there's also that highrise on Ferry and the Hotel Lennex on North.

I was really struck with the level of street/sidewalk design on Maryland in the CWE. That's one thing the EV could really learn from the CWE. The street seemed to be granite pavers and they used curves in the road to slow traffic. It was also nicely landscaped. Really great in all those regards.

As an aside, boy is St. Louis hot in the summer! I'll take snow to oppressive humidity any day.

replied to STEEL
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I have to say I don't go along with your thinking that the noisy obnoxious bars should be shoved off to poor neighborhoods as if they are more deserving of annoyances.

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That's a good point. No one should have to put up with living near obnoxious bars. So, no obnoxious bars anywhere.

Though, I do think that there are parts of Genessee that are, frankly, completely abandoned in the nearby vicinity and could be reclaimed as an entertainment district.

replied to STEEL
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Maybe Elmwood is just too long and stretched out for a city of our size. The dumps like Wilson Farms don't help either. These photo's are beautiful and make me want to go have dinner on this street. As to our Allen street, pffft.

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I absolutely want a dense city. Every time I go to Elmwood or Allen, I'm tired of feeling like I'm the only one out. Give me more options so it's not just dinner and a cupcake and I'm home in two hours. I want to walk to Elmwood and spend a whole day there, not a few hours. Buffalo is very disappointing in that regard. The Elmwood Village is supposed to be this destination, but I'm bored after an hour. I know I'll get crucified for asking, but why can't we have national brands mixed in with the local flavor? And I don't mean Starbucks.

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You can't have national brands mixed in because over-zealous meddlers will stop at nothing to prevent development that doesn't jibe with their personal, narrow view of what constitutes "authenticity."

replied to AKBuffalo
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I don't understand what else you want? I have been to dozens of cities all around the world and for the most part their vibrant areas look a lot like Elmwood. Often just larger and with more of them. But except for a record store, or a couple more hemp or clothing stores, I am not sure what else there is that people want to do?

I don't mean to sound snarky, but what specific kinds of businesses is Elmwood, or Buffalo overall missing that will keep you there for a whole day? A gastropub, HM, sure that would be fun once or twice but it is just replacing another restaurant or retailer I might go to. I don't see anything adding to the overall time I would be there.

replied to AKBuffalo
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The neighborhood I showed here has a very small commercial district and it would be tough to hang around it all day. That being said it is very beautiful and does make you want to stay around.

Elmwood is long and stretched out with large areas with no stores or restaurants. It is really a collection of smaller commercial areas. This is a problem especially since the good dense commercial sections tend to also be broken up with parking lots and gas stations. Get rid of these and get some more stores and Elmwood could take off and be very exciting. right now it is good without being what it needs to be. I am not sure that the locals really want it to be what it needs to be.

replied to sbrof
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I agree, like it or not I'm still going to the Galleria or the Niagara outlets for clothes. I find it hard to believe there's not enough density for a Gap or whatever to set up on Elmwood. Besides that there's not enough "every day" type of stores where I can go for household items, furniture, decor, etc. There's plenty of places to buy a "I heart Buffalo" shirt though or a candle holder.

replied to AKBuffalo
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Yeah, I guess that's what I'm saying. Districts like this one in St Louis or Boston (Newbury St) are trendy, but also have a local flavor. Why not a Dash's market (local), Pinkberry (national), national clothing retailer(s), Record Theatre (local)? You give me several of these options AND place(s) like Acropolis where I can listen to live music, and I'm happy. Then carry it to CanalSide, where I can go to a public market and enjoy more restaurants/pubs. Then call it a day enjoying the waterfront in Summer and Winter.

But Steel's point about the aesthetics of these areas is also a big concern. Maybe if Elmwood and Allen and Hertel looked a little less rough around the edges, they'd do better in attracting people who think the areas are "dangerous." I visit because I live there, but I cringe when I see the shape these buildings are in and when there's garbage and cracked sidewalks. Let's get some of the Governor's $1B to fix these areas.

replied to brownteeth
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or a hardware store! I don't live in the Village but work there and when I need a part, I have to hope they have it at Dibbles on Ferry or go to -sigh- the Depot.

Then again I still don't 'get' Elmwood, they let Mondo Video leave but have the only Blockbuster?


replied to brownteeth
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About letting Modo leave, how could "they" force Mondo to stay on Elmwood, and what does Blockbuster have to do with it?

If I recall correctly, Mondo left Elmwood around the time the hotel project was still a possibility to happen which would have eventually forced them and other retail in those houses to move anyway. Mondo's business model was having trouble too and he ended up deciding to close it all up after trying the Univ Heights store location for a while to see if sales would be better there. There was an interview in Artvoice back then about all that.

replied to JM
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While you may be right about the business model, it was rag tag. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of supporting a national chain over a local business. People in the Village talk how they hate national chains but they have no problem going to Depot. I really think they have an identity crisis. A lot of people still want the Strip, while others want the Village. Many on BRO want both.

replied to whatever
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If you want the average well-known national specialty retailers to set up shop on Elmwood:

1. guarantee that an average of 500 people per day, every day, will walk through the doors;

2. ensure that most will purchase something; and,

3. raise the under-$40,000 average income of the people living in the 14222 zip code so that the purchases amount to more than a pair of socks.

This is not an insult to Elmwood or its residents. For the first time, since I moved out of Buffalo, I opted not to rent a car during my visit in December. I used Metro Rail, the bus, and walked for hours to see all the changes. I enjoyed it and continue to admire those who have the guts to open an establishment and give it their best effort. Unfortunately, Elmwood, a few days before Christmas had just a few folks walking about.

Once national retailers see evidence of lots of people with money walking on Elmwood every day, they will seek out opportunities on their own with no help from anyone -- because that's what they know how to do. However, they currently see a city that continues to lose population so that's not going to persuade them. Add to that the constant turnover of local businesses on Elmwood: another negative indicator to national retail that Elmwood is still not a stable and viable retailing environment.

replied to brownteeth
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I agree with Paul's comment. It isn't just a matter of whether national retailers think they could make any profit at all at a site they consider, but they're trying to choose the very best sites to make as much as possible month after month, year after year, with as little risk as possible of making a bad choice. The others bteeth referred to, Galleria and Niagara outlet, are really in a different league.

Even in addition to demographics, there's also the amounts of square feet and/or nearby parking that major national retailers might insist on. Those factors could be controversial in EV, depending on details. Some locals have said they were/are unhappy at how big Lexington Co-op is allowed to be right now, for example.

I don't think it's at all a case of EVA or City Hall having a bias against national upscale chains (not sure if any comments here implied that… ). Obviously the fight trying to block Starbucks lost. Penzy's, Price Rite, Subway, Rite Aid, Spot, Coffee Culture are national chains/franchises to varying degrees. None of those might be the chains some might hope for, but their presence shows chains are allowed, even welcomed. The only company I'd predict might face at least some serious opposition in Buffalo would be Walmart, although that isn't upscale and wouldn't likely be in EV-proper anyhow.

replied to brownteeth
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Walmart has an urban format now.

http://www.walmartchicago.com/2011/11/30/walmart-express-opens-in-wrigleyville/

If people protested the urban friendly Starbucks (I think that protest was limited to Artvoice articles and op-eds rather than anything formal), they'd protest something like this too. Hopefully that wouldn't be enough to hold something like this up at City Hall.

replied to whatever
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Yes, hopefully opposition would fail.
Still, for urban/dense neighborhoods such as EV, even the Walmart Express versions seem bigger than usually allowed.
http://walmartstores.com/aboutus/7606.aspx
"The Walmart Express test stores average 15,000-square-feet and offer groceries and general merchandise, including an assortment of fresh produce, dairy and meat, dry goods, consumables, health and beauty aids, over-the-counter medicines and more. Many have pharmacies as well."
That page also says Walmart's "neighborhood store" versions average 42,000 sf, and 185,000 for new supercenters.

By comparison to a 15,000 average the Lex Co-op is now 5,000 sf according to this, so a WM Express be about triple that size. And even the Co-op's current 5K was opposed as too big by some. It needed a variance since it's bigger than usual allowed max size in EV.

15,000 is near what Walgreens faq page says is their average of 14,500. When Walgreens has been mentioned for say Gates Circle or Hertel/Delaware it's sometimes been in a negative way. Then again, who knows, maybe a Walgreens or WM Express might be welcomed by most residents near those or similar locations in the city if WM ever wants to try. The Common Council public hearings might be entertaining at least.
Less surprising perhaps would be if WM ever tried for an Express or "neighborhood" store in a less urban/dense location like maybe in N Buffalo part of Delaware.

replied to The Kettle
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I am admittedly not an expert on retail but I think if people had the option of shopping at a Gap (for example) on Elmwood they would go there vs the Galleria, at least city residents. I don't think parking is an issue. If a Gap can open multiple stores on Yonge or Queen street in Toronto with no parking then why not Buffalo?

In fact Queen Street is a perfect example of what Elmwood could be with their mix of national and local retail, and they sell everyday items that residents and torurists alike buy.

Has anyone tried to bring in a Gap or Banana Republic, etc. to E.V. any time recently? I am curious. Also, I think there's high turnover for some businesses on Elmwood because they're not selling products that people need frequently. I can only buy so many greeting cards, candles, ornaments, etc. a year let alone per week.

replied to whatever
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Brownteeth, you're describing a chicken-and-egg scenario. Build it and they will come doesn't apply to specialty retail because they avoid risk whenever possible. Their real estate departments conduct sophisticated demographic studies regularly so they can pinpoint where to locate their stores and then project sales based on that information. If the projected sales meet their criteria, then they seek out opportunities.

Additionally, they rely on internet sales. If everyone in zip code 14222 shops a specialty retailer online consistently then that gets noticed. (Years ago, Joseph Bank opened in Williamsville based on the high catalog sales in that zip code.)

No one brings a retailer to town: it doesn't work that way. (BassPro was a true exception in that regard and we all know how that played out.)

Comparing Yonge Street to Elmwood is apt only to show that retail responds to the hordes of people walking Yonge Street. They don't respond to the relative silence of Elmwood.

replied to brownteeth
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bt>"if people had the option of shopping at a Gap (for example) on Elmwood they would go there vs the Galleria, at least city residents."

Some would for sure. Questions are how many people, how frequently, and how much $ would they spend every year after novelty wears off… all compared to other possible locations for stores.
Along lines of what Paul said, all potential sites compete all those ways to not just be adequate or good, but to be better than other open alternatives and lower risk.

If a national retailer wanted to put, say, 15 stores across WNY, probably EV would have a decent chance for one. Then there'd be the store size issue - see below.

But if a retailer decides WNY's # of shoppers/income/etc justifies fewer stores, then it's much more difficult. Highest priority is to be in or near Galleria, then perhaps Niagara outlet, E Hills or Main/Transit, Boulevard, McKinley, … (I've no idea where EV would rank beyond all those - and in addition there's still Clarence/Transit, Lancaster/Transit, North Buffalo near Target, Williamsville part of Main, Sheridan/Tonawanda, Orchard Park, … maybe others I'm forgetting...)

bt>"Has anyone tried to bring in a Gap or Banana Republic, etc. to E.V. any time recently?"

I've never heard of any attempt for either of those anywhere in the city. Someone on here used to claim the Gap once tried for an EV store and was blocked, but that always sounded like b.s. to me (sorry gaustad, or was it assaroni?). I suppose stores like that could keep it quiet while trying, but if they ever start asking around with developers or City Hall, I'd figure some leaks would likely get publicized.

Even beyond any shopper demographics concerns the companies might have, wouldn't just the usual store sizes of Gap or Banana Republic be very controversial for EV? Aren't those usually much bigger than any current EV-allowed business?

replied to brownteeth
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@ Whatever: I obviously don't know the answer to this question. Based on my experience and observations in many different cities large and small all over the country, including Canada, I think any of those retailers would do great in E.V. and would be more of a regular need vs a novel need like many existing stores in the E.V.

@ Paulbuffalo: I agree it's a chicken vs egg thing. I wouldn't call a store like Gap a specialty retail store per se.(I keep using Gap as an example becuase it's a fairly inexpensive store many people can shop at)

Unless that's an retail industry term I would call a store like Penzy's Spices more specialized as the demand and demographic would seem far smaller than a general clothing store like Gap.

As for the store sizes I could easily see Gap fitting into an existing space like where Mode is if they used both floors like some I've seen in other cities. My comparison to Queen Street was only that the streetscape and parking are similar to Elmwood and they have national retail.

replied to whatever
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bt, I don't know for sure either, but I think their desire for greatest profits (not just great, but greatest among possible options) based on predictive factors Paul discusses is the biggest reason no national retailers you mention have made publicly known effort to be in EV.
Rather than as I've seen implied - not by you, I'm recalling what others used to claim on here - that what prevents it is EVA, City Hall, or NIMBYs, hippies, etc.
I think stores like Gap or Banana Republic would be very welcomed by EVA and City Hall if they wanted to be in EV.

OTOH, Penzy's decided a small store there can be profitable enough in their niche. Spice jars are very small, they can display relatively a lot of those per square ft - don't need a store size variance or multiple floors. And maybe for many spice shoppers there isn't as often comparison shopping or stops at multiple stores. For clothes, more people might prefer malls or strip plazas where they're near several national stores for that. Not always, but enough to make differences that show up in numbers the co's look at when deciding where to be.

replied to brownteeth
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when will the mandate in Buffalo to fence in all outdoor sidewalk dining be removed? Anybody on that?

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i wouldn't be surprised if the fencing rule was designed to prevent aggressive restauranteurs from completely crowding pedestrians off the sidewalk and into the street. someone will always take advantage or ignore the law. the fence also keeps your obnoxious dog or kid off my lap & my plate.

replied to nyc
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hmmm, bad response to my comment. A good response would have gone like this:

"I know! It's completely rediculous. I feel like a caged animal sitting in those pens. I mean really, outdoor dining in Buffalo is a rare sight, but do we really have to make it look like an exhibit at the zoo! Part of the problem is that they are just too darn high, the top nearly at eye level when sitting. Maybe they should lower the height requirement - like 28" max height, something more humane...and better yet, no fence requirement at all - Free the sidewalk diners!!! I'll make a t-shirt and get a petition signed by restaurant owners across the city. And by the way, a lower fence allows me to stroke the fur of a passing beagle, or marvel at the sight of a young child enjoying their time with mom and dad walking hand in hand down the street"

sorry just being obnoxious.

replied to grad94
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guess you've never had someone's dog try and hump you or grab your entree off your plate.

replied to nyc
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[Deleted- World Marketer Back at Flaming]

replied to grad94
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It may be a liquor license thing. Perhaps they need to segregate the area so they can serve booze? I do wish they could do away with the fences but at the very least it does keep the areas organized so you can walk by without tripping on a chair, remember not all the sidewalks with patios are very wide. It may also keep people who aren't buying anything from just sitting there without permission, though they don't keep people from asking you for change.

replied to nyc
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If only our local 'leaders' took note and even cared to make our city 'Dense' and did'nt make this a 'car' city. We have way too many cars jumping city sidewalks to get to lots and ramps, and a number of large lots to walk which explains why it's so hard to attract retailers to downtown and beyond. With no heavy foot traffic, and endless sea of parking, it's 'Un-attractive' sell for any retailer.

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Those pesky cars are filled with people. Those people come from all over including the city itself. Last I checked it's people that make a city dense so why would you want to eliminate a major means of getting people into and around a city?

But Main street is a real bustling metropolis with no cars right? And Elmwood and Hertel are dead. Why even have roads at all? Lets just grow some grass in the streets except for a bike lane of course, that way you can get to your barrista job at Spot coffee easier.

replied to Lego1981
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Steel
have a look at Old Town Louisville Ky

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Louisville


also, 'down in the heels' is the expression you're looking for in the first paragraph.

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yes, I stand corrected. you're correct in the phrase, but used the word 'heal' instead of 'heel'.

replied to STEEL
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One matter that could be making St. Louis, MO dangerous where Buffalo, NY is not is not only that the winter cold in Buffalo, NY keeps crime down, but also that the houses keep coming down... Whats of interest here is how those food trucks are going to fare.

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I'm not sure if this was mentioned in the comments but if we had an extra million in the metro like st louis does, areas would probably look similar to this. There's just not enough disposable income in our city. We need to stop thinking of buffalo as a big city. It's not anymore.

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This is about and untrue a statement as you can make. I can show you cities smaller than Buffalo and will that have incredible walkable commercial districts.

replied to Tim
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Steel how did you travel to St Louis? I hope you didnt use any evil highways or that abomination of technology on four wheels.

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Well I could have taken a train except that we only spend infrastructure money making car travel convenient. They are planning on making the St. Louis to Chicago train high speed soon. They are hoping for 80 mile per hour trains in about 10 years!

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So you do what is most convienent to you, meanwhile chastise those who do not practice what you preach. There is plenty of infrastructure for a train ride from Chicago to St Louis. Its about a 5 1/2 hour train ride, about the same as driving in a car. So why didnt you travel like you expect everyone else to? You dont believe in highways and you say they are only there for suburbanites. Did you just take routes to get there? Why are you being a hypocrite? If you belive so firmly in something why did you deviate?

replied to STEEL
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Did I say I don't believe in highways or that I don't believe in the extent of our highways that we build? Our country is sprawl based. We force it on everyone. by the way while in St. Louis we used public transit to the extent possible. It was not easy however because it is under funded. The Amtrak stop is buried under a tangle of dank highways by the way

We make public transit extremely difficult because we spend almost exclusively on highways. We ruin our cities with them and we encourage people to live further and further out making them the sole method of getting anywhere. The fact that there is no public transit connection to Chicago's train stations, or that Amtrak has only 2 late night departure times which pretty much get you in between midnight and 2am, or that the train actually takes more like 8 hours to get to st Louis or that once there I could not get so some of my destinations without a car were all factors which pretty much predetermined that I would need to take a car to St. Louis

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The amtrak ride is no where near 8 hours like you claim. Stop trying to spin everything your way. It is 5 1/2 hours from departure to arrival. I guess you didnt bother to check amtrak at all. Also why could you have not taken a cab from amtrak to where you needed to go. You reek of hypocracy. Amtrak has an arrival that gets you in at 10:30 pm. I guess it just proves my point that a car was more convienent for you like it is for almost everybody else in this country.

"The fact that there is no public transit connection to Chicago's train stations" really there is no public transportation to Union station. Do you not count bus service as public transportation?

replied to STEEL
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Yep I am a hypocrite because occasionally I drive a car - You got me.

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As Sarah Palin would say...."that's a gotcha question".

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Applause, Steel. I mesn that genuinely. Thanks for calling the status quo in EV as it really is. Certainly, Elmwood has become ground zero for a great deal of what is right about Buffalo, but it seems to have plateaued.

Judging from the pics you presented, Buffalo doesn't have that kind of up-to-the-sidewalk stretches of building stock as much of Elm. consists of wooden structures most of which are former homes. Also, setbacks and parking lots.

The St. Louis metro area is enormous compared to WNY with many tony suburbs especially to the west. More people, more money, etc. Those factors do make a significant difference in outcomes.

I wish I had more time to do a demographic comparison. But I have been there and have been amazed by the urban sprawl and wealth. Lots of money in the region.

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