My Favorite Buildings: 123 Bidwell For Sale
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Leave a commentVery Nice Building. How much are they getting for rent that they would cover the $265,000 asking price? On average apartment buildings sell around $35-40,000 per unit maybe a little more. Is the photo studio rented then? It has a very interesting exterior and the woodwork looks very nice.
265k Is not a bargain price, its assessed at 150k! That looks to be about what it’s worth. I applaud your gusto for wanting to improve this historic building but don’t encourage someone to committee finical destruction.
Location, Location, Location.
I agree it's not worth it but someone will probably pay.
exactly. It needs a new roof, some brick work on the exterior, and some general cleaning up (as STEEL said). It is a 4,000+ sq ft building but only a 4 units, plus that extra photo studio, which probably is not easily rent-able, could be wrong, but seems like it would have to be changed to something else. Doesn't seem to make financial sense at 265k, but at 150k I think it definitely would. Unless they are getting great rent out of the 4 units, but I don't see it considering the condition of the exterior, although the interior does look very nice. So again I could definitely be wrong, but without the actual numbers for rent, doesn't make sense to me at 265k.
But a great building and a great article about it. That is the main reason I really enjoy this website. Great articles that offer great insight about beautiful buildings.
The listing says that the first floor alone rents at $1500 . Also there are 3 more units. If they each rent for only $500 the monthly take is about $3000. Someone will get this for just under $200 grand I would think and no one pays the listing price. house probably needs $100,000 so your monthly expenses for insurance tax and mortgage would be about $2300 or so. But if you put money in your would probably get better rents. Or if you were to live here is is a big house for around beautiful house for not too much money.
STEEL, You might be closer then I thought, it looks like the asking rents are 1500/750/750/750. At those rates I see why the owner thinks 265k is fair. Also the building was foreclosed on and sold in 2002 for 75k to the current owner. It must have some very serious problem if the guy is selling it while trying to live there. What has he been doing with all the money for the last 10 years?
it could be the roof, and other renovations he doesn't want to pay to have done. It looks like the owner has just been collecting rent not doing much to the exterior to keep it in great condition. Although the interiors do look nice in the pictures, so I am not really sure. Also they are asking for those rents, I am curious as to if they are actually getting them.
Definitely need more than $100,000 to fix. The roof will probably cost $30,000 and then another 10,000 to re-point the masonry and paint the exterior. There are not many photos available, so what about the mechanicals, the kitchens and the baths of 4 units? Insulation? Pipes? Because this building has obviously been neglected, even $200,000 is a conservative estimate for a complete renovation. Now if the owner-occupier can do most of the work him- or herself...
from the pictures the interior seems to be rented and in good condition. I think your $40,000 number seems to be very realistic.
While I would love to see the cedar roof replaced in kind, an architectural asphalt shingle would be fine if that's what it takes to make it financially viable for a new owner to get the work done thus keeping the building water tight. Not to mention it can always be redone in cedar down the line if someone were so inclined. I would definitely keep the copper though.
I don't think the asking price is too far off from its value if all the work needed is exterior. That shouldn't affect the rental values inside much. Besides it doesn't take much imagination to see the potential of the exterior.
That pitch on the roof will get you though! Perhaps that's why it hasn't leaked at all (that we know of)? My slate mansard roof was missing shingles and still didn't leak.
If you we're living in one of the smaller units, I think you could get away with it for 200k. I doubt any bank will assess it past 150-160 though so you’re going to have to come up with the difference, and the down payment in cash. That’s allot of money to come up with. And I know I’m going to get yelled at, but it has no parking, not one spot. That’s hard to take at that price.
Your ignorance of this real estate market combined with your repeated assertions (some of which you take back moments later) are quite a combination.
i would have bet you your entire net worth that this place would sell for more than $150K but you've already recanted that insane assertion. Now, I'm happy to bet you the same amount that a bank will happily assess this building for more than $150K. For god sakes, they're generating over $3K in rents from the building as is so how could one possibly claim a bank won't assess the property for more than $150k?
If you're interested in the wager, let me know.
I know they are asking for about $3,750 in rent, but is that what they are actually getting. I don't know where this information was found from that is why I am asking. The owner can say he is looking for $1500 for the first floor, but that doesn't mean it is rented. I guess nobody will probably know this for a fact w/o calling the Realtor, but I'm not assuming they are making 3k+ a month right now.
Banks can only mortgage a % of the total value of the building, this one was assessed at $150,000 on 2009, $150,000 on 2008, $143,000 on 2007. If you buy this as a non-owner occupied you need 20% down and then maybe, maybe you could get the money to buy it, and since those are 10 year mortgages then 3k would just cover the payment. Did you notice the Occupancy papers are listed as 'negotiable'? The new owner may well not pass inspection and you couldn't rent any of those apartments. I'd be happy if you paid the 265k just to spit me!
10 year lease? I think that depends on who is buying it. Either way we don't have the financial detail to make very accurate assumptions on the investment opportunity of this property. It is in a nice area, and a very nice building that needs probably at least $30-$40,000 worth of work (basing it off previous estimates for a roof and some brick work, general clean up). And it will not be bought for 265k, and will be bought for more than 150k.
First of all you'll need 30% down on any building over 2 units. Furthermore, you cannot count the rents as income if there is not a minimum of 2 years taxes showing that income from the previous owner and the units must be zoned properly by the city to qualify as rental units as well.
And as others have mentioned, the bank does their own appraisal, the city's appraisal is for tax purposes. For that the lower the value the better for the owners sake.
Even if you can afford the monthly payments on a 10 year mtge, it's still wiser to do a 30-year mtge with pre-payments and have the lower monthly payment as an option if something comes up.
Wrong, you do not need at least 30% down on any building over 2 units. Call a banker to confirm.
I talked to my bank about it (Evans) a month ago. Some banks may have different restricitons. And I'm talking investment property, not owner occupied.
Oh and you most certainly can mortgage the full bank appraised value of a building. However you cannot take out a line of equity on a building you already have a mortgage on for more than 20-25% of the equity you have left against the appraised value. (Evans Bank will let you do 25%)
This property is definitley priced right, just look at comparables and try to find something like this, in this location and condition, at a cheaper price. If it were a single family home it may be harder or take slightly longer to find a buyer without at least one off-street parking spot.
I won't be surprised if a group like greenleaf, horizon or kissling buys this place.
Correction, I meant to say 80-85% of the equity.
It may need a roof and some other work, and it may be a tight fit with no parking, but I agree with Steel: at this price it's a bargain. Rock solid location in a very architecturally interesting structure. A roof might set you back $30k. Spend it happily. The inside (from the realtor photos) does look pretty decent. It's hard to find a home with great bones. This has them.
The Real Buffalo Bill: The assessed value has nothing to do with the appraised value of the property. Banks do not assess property, municipalities do, the assessed value isn't a factor in appraising a property.
Also, 30 year terms are available on non-owner occupied properties.
I've been in there. Its a big house. Those pics have to be from the nicest rooms of all the units combined, because the apt I saw was a dump.
Amazing property. Nice article Steel. Considering the area it's located in, for purchase price and reno costs somebody could have a hell of a grand home for 350 thousand or less. Parking on Bidwell is not really an issue as I recall but unfortunatly I don't see it being turned into a single family without parking. Parents would want at least 2 spots along with probably a third for the daughters car she gets as a gift after graduating from Nardin. But a savy urban intowner who wants an owner occupied building with the larger unit for themselves and 3 great units to rent could find themselves in a great location with a minimal mortgage payment after completion.
Buffalo SEM has been buying up homes in which out of town young women can board. This would be a perfect set up for them, I would think.
great idea. It's a natural.
I could only imagine the extent of the water damage in the roof attic. It's been "protected" by blue tarps for at least 5 years now. 265 might be a fair price if it's not rotted from the inside out
You can see some water damage in the first interior photo which appears to be the unit in the top right side of the building above where the newer looking balcony is located (looking at the last photo). If that's the extent of water damage it in the rest of the units that's certainly manageable.
My buddy lived in one of the apartments in the late 1990's (off to the right, in the back). While at the time the building needed a little TLC, it was really cool. His apartment was three small levels stacked on top of each other. It was neat.
First, you have to assume the rents are accurate they have to sign a rented property rider to go with the contract disclosing the rents.
Second, the rents are NOT including the owners unit which is a 3 bedroom so you could get more than whats listed. So when you figure out that price your ROI it is priced about right, because the article is right the roof is shot.
Third, for anyone to say its worth 150 is crazy, every area is different in buffalo and in the elmwood village, it is almost impossible to find a 2 unit for 150 let alone a 4 unit generating 4k per month. It is priced right, it just takes some cash because like someone said, you need 20% down, and yes it can be a 30yr loan, but then you'll also need the cash for a roof. So factor that all it its priced right, it just takes the right person with the cash...and not to mention I showed it to a client of mine and it already had 3 offers on it at the time.
I hope they make it a nightclub, or a tire dump-it's almost the Elmwood Strip so any use an owner wants to dream up is just AOK!!
It makes me laugh how people are arguing whether the asking price is a bargain or not, when NOBODY who posted so far (including the author) knows anything about the property. How people on here can defend a position without having any of the facts is really unbelievable.
I know plenty about the property and I have the facts. Ironically, that makes your comment a 'know nothing' comment without any facts.
So you "know plenty about" or have "been in" the house. And you think that makes you experts? Neither of you has any idea how much money it might take to get the needed repairs done; you don't even know what those needed repairs might be. Without knowing how many tens of thousands of dollars would be needed to invest in the house, and you don't, you could not possible make an informed assessment about its pricing. So take your irony detector and STFU.
You don't have to go inside to know it needs a new roof and how much that might cost. It's not hard to extrapolate what the rest of the repairs might be.
Get this - I know plenty AND I have been in the house. And yes, those two things are related.
Also, when you finally save enough money to actually buy a house, you'll have some clue about this sort of stuff too. Of course, that likely won't be anytime soon.
Thanks for showing that you really are misinformed and just plain ignorant. Not only have I saved enough to buy a house, I have saved enough to buy four of them. I have been through the process of purchasing property enough to know that you can't tell from standing on the curb, looking at a photo, or casually going into the house to know what its condition is. You cannot extrapolate what the other repairs might be just because it obviously needs a new roof. That's like saying that because it needs a new roof that it also must need a new heating system, new plumbing, asbestos abatement, foundation repairs, new floor joists, replacement windows, new bathrooms, kitchen updates, radon remediation, circuit breakers, wiring, rebuilt porches, walls, ceilings, etc. The point is it could need any combination of these things, and possibly many many other things. Maybe it doesn't need any of these. You don't know, and neither do I. If you bought and own a house, then you should know that there are so many things that could be wrong with the house, things that are not readily apparent. Anyone who has been involved with a pre purchase property inspection a few times would know that until you go in, and thoroughly examine these things, you just don't know what you're dealing with. Therefore it is pointless to debate whether or not the asking price is too high or a bargain.
So you are willing to bet on the ultimate purchase price of this property?
I have $10K that says it will go for more than $220K. You in?
As I outlined in great detail above, it would be stupid to make such a bet without knowing more about the property. If I was going to put money on it, I'd have to first get an inspector to go through the place and give me a full inspection report. I'd do that, but I have a life.
@nbuffalo guy, I don't know what your trying to prove by attacking @spitzer by basically saying he's stupid and you know more than him. He is stating his opinion, this is a thread, you don't have to get all high and mighty....not to mention since you've bought real estate before you obviously know that the standard sales contract used in the buffalo/Niagara region is set up so your inspection happens after you sign a contract, so why would you try to put him down saying you can't guess what it would sell for before an inspection? Yes things may change after inspection, but as far as estimates for repairs, he said he was in the house before, as was I, and several other investors, agents and contractors.
So yes, your right, there is always some things in a house that are uncertain, but I'm not sure why you would call him or anyone else ignorant and to tell anyone to "STFU" as you so kindly put it, talking on a thread about a house.
easy there Mitt Romney...
Yeah I've also been in it so that's a strange thing to say.
This has always been one of my favorite buildings too. I am so tempted!!! Absolutely it will go for the asking price, and there will be competition for it. I'll bet they already have offers on the table.
Its a great looking house but the awful bar next to it kills it....I would love someone to buy Heenans or whatever its call and change it completely...Cafe Aroma across the street needs to expand....
Also, can we get Zettis out of here, they are ruining a unique corner.....
And the bar's kitchen exhaust vent--functioning or not I don't know--is mere inches from the side of the house, blowing directly on to that beautiful balcony.
I don't know if that exhaust fan next door is grandfathered in or not, but those no longer meet code. Now you have to vent up above the roof line, either through the building or via a duct work chimney.
That's a super-easy fix. Just complain about the music in the bar and the city will shut it down immediately. No more exhaust.
:(
The 1st floor apt is currently owner occupied so it isn't bringing in $1500 per month. The 2nd floor apt brings in around $1100 per month and the 3rd floor is $750. All units include utilities which can be quite expensive in the winter. The photo studio has been rented out in the past as a 1 bedroom apt so Im not sure why it's being called a photo studio now but it has been rented out from anywhere between $500-$750. I lived here for many years and the apartments are nice and spacious. With that said the building does need alot of TLC. The house was appraised for $250,000 and has already received offers at asking price.
Thanks for the info. May I ask, why are you selling?
I know the individual selling the house. I do not believe that Mercy Rule is that individual, but a former tenant.
I do not know why the owner is selling, but I intend to ask him, as we're now officially in the market for a house in the EV.
It is in deplorable condition. What would a roof like that really cost?
re: the roof cost:
put it to bid with four contractors and you'll get estimates all over the board, despite specifying the same materials. I just had a 22 square (2200 square feet of) roof replaced (tear off of three+ layers, replace a lot of deck, install three large skylights, deal with dormers and valleys, 50 year architectural shingles, good ice/water and underlay, etc.) and was able to get the whole thing done for under $14k, but had bids more than twice that high. I'm sure there would be estimates for this roof (using decent quality architectural asphalt) for $75k. But I'll bet with good shopping you could get it done nicely for $30k.
Right now is a great time to schedule a roofing job; they like to line things up for the spring. When it's high summer and fall they have work coming out of their ears, so they throw out very high estimates because they only want to bother with the added work if they'll make big profit on it. At that time they don't care if they lose business because their plates are full. Right now they're trying to get a base of business set for the start of the season.
Very good advice. Thanks.
they should enclose the porch w/ that 'Acme Storefront' look that's becoming all the rage now...
that'll raise the asking price for sure...
{Deleted- Johnson at it again}
even the tattooists are jumping on the bandwagon.
met a chick who showed me a tattoo like that but it wasn't on her back and it looked more like it had bay windows...
And I thought I was in the know.
I looked at the back studio/tower/apartment thing - 1 bedroom - steep spiral staircase to get upstairs and had a little outdoor patio thing... I think they wanted $750+ at that time...
I used to live across the street from this, and a couple of my best friends lives on the first floor apartment. Awesome place. We spent many hours playing Mario Kart, Goldeneye, and a little game called "Poo Dollar", which the Elmwood Ave. barhoppers were the unwitting participants in. :)
Anyway...fond memories, and a really great building.
This house is no longer listed on Gurney's site.
I just spoke to the owner minutes ago. The house has already sold. He didn't even have a chance to put together the rest of the marketing materials because he got the offer so quickly.
A lot of you "experts" commenting above look pretty stupid right now.
The house is worth way more than the asking price - and sold for way more than the asking price. Only in Buffalo would anyone in a major American city even think otherwise.
The roof has no leaking but whoever roofed over wood cedar shingles with the cheapest asphalt shingles you could buy is responsible for the deteriorating asphalt. An a la Buffalo - fire-code multiple dwelling 1970's pretense perhaps?
The century + old cedar decking and framing has held up well. The Guesthouse/photo studio sky light has been preserved under steel flashing at the request of forward looking preservationists - no doubt- and that window will once again allow the Northern Light to stream into the third level and light up the hand hewn wood beams and thick hardwood floor. Perhaps for a 21st century photographer practising silver wet plate photography.
Clinton Brown himself identified this Gothic/English Tudor revival with Richardsonian elements- master piece as a Silsbee in his Historical Neighborhood Resources project circa 2004. And what else or who else could it be? It would be one of Silsbee's last if not his last Buffalo commission being built in 1895.
Rents do more than cover the sale price. The selling owner will lease back for a year and will help coordinate updating maintenance items with the new owners.
Lots of light streaming into this house now. Some Cedar may be in the cards we hope - but smilesandlight believes Buffalo will be happy and proud of this Landmark once again when 21st century maintenance is completed this year ;-D+*
Anyoption
In recent years, Elmwood has become a popular site for mixed-use residential and commercial sites. It features over 200 small local shops, coffeehouses, restaurants, bars, and art galleries. One establishment, Cole's, was one of the first openly gay-friendly bars in the United States during the 1920's. In 2007, Elmwood Village was named one of the 'Top 10 Great Places in America' by the American Planning Association. SPoT Coffee opened one of their first locations within the village
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Wow. Love the stained glass, and that the woodwork hasn't been painted white. Looks like a tough roof to tackle.