Real Estate December 8, 2011 1:45 AM

Ellicott Development Starts Work on Graystone, Three Other Projects

Ellicott Development Starts Work on Graystone, Three Other Projects

Ellicott Development has started work to restore the historic Graystone Hotel.  It is one of four projects the prolific developer is beginning in coming weeks.

Opened in 1897, the former Berkeley Hotel at 24 S. Johnson Park was designed by Carlton Strong.  Ellicott Development purchased the property in March 2002.  The distinctive building is an early example of reinforced concrete construction.   A hole in its roof resulting from a construction accident in 2003 left many wondering if the property was doomed. 

"Crews are doing the environmental work right now," says Bill Paladino, Chief Executive Officer of Ellicott Development.

Paladino says work to shore up the building's interior and install a new roof is starting this week.  Interior demolition to prepare for a full-scale renovation of the building will occur over the winter.

According to Paladino, full construction will begin in March on the nearly $5 million project.  The building will be converted into forty apartments.

Ellicott Development is one of the area's busiest developers and has a number of projects underway or planned in both the city and suburbs.  According to Paladino, work on three additional developments is also starting.  Demolition work is underway at the former New Life Assembly of God church at 189 North Pearl Street.  The ornate, circa-1899 church is at the corner of North Street, is being converted into thirteen apartments.

Over the next two weeks, work will start to prepare the Squier Mansion at 1313 Main Street for Kaleida Health's Family Planning Center.  Also expected to be underway is interior demolition at the former Grace Manor Nursing Home on Symphony Circle.  That project will be anchored by Gateway-Longview.  The balance of the building will be residential and office space

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GS-1503.jpgPhotos by Mike Puma

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Still wondering why about 1/3 of this 'concrete' building appears to be made of very deteriorated red brick. Does anyone here know? It's obvious that the brick wall could be taken down with little effort - chunks are falling constantly.

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The concrete that you see for the other 2/3 of the building is an applied facade to a brick substrate. The concrete you can see from the picture has in many places released itself from the brick over the years as can be seen by the large discolored cracks. It was really concrete chunks that have been falling off for a long time. It appears as though they have stripped the concrete off of that one section completely because it wasn't like that the last time I saw the backside of the building. Just a corner of brick was exposed where concrete had fallen off.

The question I have is whether or not he is going to reapply a new layer of concrete or if the brick was original (for the back at least and he is just going to leave the brick. It is likely that the concrete stucco was the original final treatment because the whole front facade is decorated with it and the building itself is made of reinforced concrete.

replied to MrGreenJeans
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It would be nice if the concrete facade was reapplied. If he is seeking historic credits, would it not have to be returned to the original condition?
In any case, it's great to hear and see that the renovation work is back on.

replied to sbrof
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If he is seeking historic credits??? Don't they always? It is how they make money.

replied to crescent1251
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@green jeans: re: the brick wall:

it's confusing to me as well, for a different reason: I was told by knowledgeable sources (Rocco Termini among them) that this building was constructed in a fashion that, for its day, was revolutionary. Namely, I was told it was constructed essentially like concrete shoe boxes, one atop the other. This brick wall certainly makes that description confusing to me, as it looks far more conventional. I wonder what the reality is.

replied to MrGreenJeans
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Perhaps the bump outs in the rear were built separately out of brick? Anyway I thought the same thing.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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A 1925 Sanborn Map verifies what you and Bini said about the construction materials (slide 32a). It is made up of concrete and steel framing with concrete walls and floors. The "Hotel Touraine" next door is built in a similar manner but with brick walls.

Cool stuff as concrete was not as common as other materials back in those days. The sturdy construction could explain why these places have endured despite a hole in the roof and tenants who some here feel are beneath them and/or harbinger of ruin.

replied to brownteeth
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Great news! I hope the projects turn out well, and I hope they keep doing it. Buffalo has a lot of old buildings!

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Glad to hear this. The Graystone is a beautiful building in a great neighborhood.

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Yes, great to see. What I don't understand is why they waited so long, and allowed the building to further deteriorate? That translates to more reno $ for them, diminishing profits. The likely response is "he needed a reuse plan".

"40 individual units" has me scared. Section 8 housing?

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Why would section 8 scare you? The high end stuff would be nice, but any use that will put this place back to life would be fine in my book.

replied to Travelrrr
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Ugh, put section 8 here and they may as well leave the building as it is. At least empty the area is safer and clean.

replied to The Kettle
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Because, I think DT needs more critical mass of young professionals, empty nesters, etc. who can provide more demand to businesses that might set up shop DT. I don't think Sec 8 housing will achieve that.

replied to The Kettle
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I disagree. There appears to be plenty of room for both groups in downtown. That impressive apartment building next door (corner of Delaware) houses low income tenants and fits in nicely with nearby upscale developments. Ditto for the Shorline Apts, Perry, etc.

Don't forget a lot of people receiving that level of public assistance are the ones who perform a lot of the necessary but sometimes thankless lower level jobs (cooking meals, cleaning hotel rooms, security etc).

Wouldn't it be beneficial to everybody with a stake in downtown to have people in walking distance to these jobs instead of having them drive or take the bus? That would reduce the need for parking spaces and traffic while improving air quality.

replied to Travelrrr
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Excellent take. The "I'm all for downtown residential development, as long as they aren't built for poor people" meme that sometimes rears it's ugly head around here is repulsive.

replied to The Kettle
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I certainly never said that, nor do I subscribe to that. However, I love(d) the thought of the Graystone returning to its original grandeur....which would require prices not in keeping with Sec 8, and would add more critical mass of professionals to DT. That's all.

As others have mentioned, there are currently a lot of low income housing units DT,which there should be.

replied to EyeC
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I totally agree. You don't place Section 8 recipients at the heart of downtown. I would have no problem with 5 of these apartments being lower income. But, once you slap that lower income sticker on a couple apartments, you scare away a good portion of the upper class that you're targeting. Great project though. I wonder if eventually they'll be sold as condos?

replied to Travelrrr
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Call it repulsive...I call it realistic and it is ok to be sad about reality.

The Elmwood Village did not become what it is today by building out free medical clinics and section 8 housing. It achieved its status by a level of gentrification. That is a fact.

Does low income housing belong in Downtown? The answer is yes but not yet. This project is going to cost about $125k per unit. Do you know how long it would take to recoup the costs on that investment with Section 8 rents? It would be a matter of charity.

The only way for DT to turn the corner if for it to reach a tipping point of density with youth and empty nestors first. After that comes productive retail. Last in line is affordable housing.

Of course..the $5m of private money here is about the same that Mark C got for the Statler. I guess if the COB would to give Ellicott $5m to convert it to Section 8 "for the benefit of the community" and allow Ellicott to make a profit on the rest, like the Statler, I am sure they would have listened.

replied to EyeC
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It woulnd't be charity. Far from it. From what I understand, landlords get about double the income from Sec. 8 housing because it is subsidized by HUD. It actually makes good business sense to rehab and have Sec. 8 housing.

But I agree, the Graystone should not be Sec. 8.

replied to longgone
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Landlords that could only get 250-300 for their properties, can rent to section8 recepients and get 650-700. The only stipulation is that the rental property has to meet the minimum section8 housing standards. So, in that case its true, but for every other case its not.

replied to Rand503
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agreed. especially since low-income people are less likely to own cars or computers, so they are more likely to spend all of their wages within walking, biking, or bus distance of their homes.

well-off people can drive anywhere or go online to shop. the $20k salaried person spending 90% of their wages downtown is a better deal than the $75k salaried person spending 10% of their wages downtown.

replied to EyeC
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Those are interesting statistics you manufactured, but logic would dictate that someone making $75k who choses to live in this neighborhood does so because they work and/or spend recreational time and discretionary income here (shopping, bars, restaurants, etc). 10% seems ridiculously low.

replied to grad94
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Logic and common sense fail him/her.

I guess all we need to prove his/her theory is look at existing Section 8 housing and we should find a vibrant retail and commercial corridor adjacent to it. LOL

Man some of the comments on this site are funny.

replied to manski
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If you're talking about the housing above Underground on the same side of the street (corner of Johnson/Delaware) those slums, err, apartments are DISGUSTING. I've seen them... it's full of people without jobs and sucking off welfare and disability.

replied to The Kettle
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@ Tommy, LG, Manski, Trav, and others claiming to speak on behalf of logic, reason, and "reality:" You guys do realize that downtown has long been occupied by low income residents right? In addition, more recent initiatives to attract other income groups back to the heart of the city have been successful despite the presence of "DISGUSTING" places like Hotel Chippewa, the Touraine, and other properties refereed to in the Lower West Side.

Based on that, I don't think the presence of a newer development geared toward sec 8 recipients would have any negative impact on places like the Avant, City Centre, or people who have been investing in houses in the immediate area.

If the rents reported for The Gryestone are correct, you shouldn't have much to worry about anyway. I'd just suggest you guys take a better look around before advocating a downtown that is urban in style but with sprawltopian social exclusivity.

replied to tommyJ
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I agree with you. I didn't say that there's anything wrong with low income residents downtown. I commented on the made up statistic that someone earning $20k is more of an economic benefit to a downtown neighborhood than someone earning $75k.

replied to The Kettle
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My bad Manski. Looks like I read through your comment a little too fast.

@ Burch, yeah you figured me out. All of my talk about all things anti-sprawltopian here was really a ruse to cover up my true desires to live the more virtuous sprawl life. Alas, they won't let me into their club so I have to resort to badmouthing them here. That's some fine detective work my friend.

replied to manski
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" Alas, they won't let me into their club so I have to resort to badmouthing them here."

........sounds about right.

replied to The Kettle
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"sprawltopian social exclusivity."

....somebody jealouse?

replied to The Kettle
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WHAT?? NO SECT 8..what a bunch of discriminating slobs!!

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Carl has built a lot of bad karma between his sycophantic rants and mean spririted political campaign. Hopefully these types of project will start to reverse his image because EDC is investing, and continues to invest in WNY.

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EDC makes it sound like they are willingly repairing the Graystone when in fact, according to the Buff News a while back, they were ordered by housing court to fix the roof by winter or face serious consequences.

At any rate the end result will be better than what it is now and I am happy about that. As for Section 8 tenants, nearly every apartment building around my neighborhood (west village)is sec 8 and for the most part there are no issues with the exception of litter.

Luckily the owner of a few of these buildings has a good maintenance crew I see daily going between buildings taking care of issues. That goes to show how proper management can really work well regardless of clientele.

The fact there's only going to be 40 units should indicate they will be fairly large units. That equates to about 7 units per floor which leads me to believe they will be something better than Sec 8 or low income.

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+1 ur new pic

replied to brownteeth
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Thanks! I figured I would update it since I finished replacing most of the mansard roof.

replied to RaChaCha
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Brownteeth, how long have you owned that house? I looked at it several years ago when it was for sale but ended up not buying it for fear of the repairs. I wonder if you were the only owner since then. I'm glad to see that somebody has taken on the project. That Mansard roof was a really nice feature.

Would you be willing to divulge what you've spent since purchasing it?

replied to brownteeth
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I bought it jus before thanksgiving 2007. I paid $50k and I would estimate the repair costs to date around the $35-40k range. I performed all the work myself with the exception of the glass block windows in the basement. BRO did an article about it last year, here's a link if you're interested.

http://www.buffalorising.com/2010/10/repat-reno-on-whitney.html

I recently replaced 2/3 of the original slate mansard with asphalt shingles as the slate was very deteriorated and painted blue by a previous owner. I did however match the pattern of the original slate. I plan to finish the rest next spring as I tackled that on my own too.

replied to Captain Picard
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Thanks for posting that link -- somehow I missed that article the first time around. About the replacement materials for the roof, didja read about those in Slate Magazine

replied to brownteeth
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No, I talked to a rep at B&L Wholesale and found two asphalt shingle styles that matched the two profiles I needed and were the same color. The shingles themselves only cost around $1,100, as opposed to around $7-8,000 I was quoted for synthetic slate material.

replied to RaChaCha
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OMG I looked at this place in 2004! Kudo's cause it needed ton's of help!

replied to brownteeth
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Regarding the 40 individual units...

This building started off as the Berkeley Hotel and later the Hotel Graystone with 150 rooms. So I imagine the 40 units will be reasonably large. It's a pretty big building.

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I didn't ask for an update on prices, but earlier this year Bill Paladino said:

"Units will be smaller than we usually do. Prices will be in the $1,000 to $1,400 range, not the $1,200 to $2,000 originally planned."

At $1,000, that is slightly higher than the going rate for the latest downtown lofts/apartments ($895 to $1195 in Lafayette Hotel for example). Definitely not Section 8 at those prices.

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Great to see this moving forward.

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The S. Elmwood area is starting to be a pretty cool place. Mix the Avant, this project, and the growing Prospect/Whitney Pl neighborhood, and this is really looking up.

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The "upcoming" of the forlorn Greystone is excellent news!

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Finally, let't get this project moving. Lots of changes going on in downtown Buffalo!

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Been reading the comments - here's my 2 cents:

Historic Tax Credits - allow for proper restoration in an affordable manner for developers - also allows for affordable apartments for anyone.

Section 8 - not many people realize that the City of Buffalo, and the towns of West Seneca and Hamburg have ordinances that landlords cannot deny anyone with Section 8 vouchers.

Further, Section 8 families are not the problem - the administration and follow-up of the agencies leave much to be desired - like a family from Somalia that cannot speak English and understand the ways of living in the US gets no instruction since the housing agency does not go the extra mile to partner with other agencies like the International Institute to assist in housing and language education.

Like brownteeth said, we have plenty of Section 8 housing in the West Village. To discriminate creates social gentrification, in my opinion.

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I wish it were becoming a boutique hotel, there are just too many new apartments being built in Buffalo. They may hurt the rent values of all the multi-unit homes.

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Or they may hurt the values of the suburban apartment complexes.

replied to Dave
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Or they might hurt the value of Chicago apartments.

replied to STEEL
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It has nothing to do with Chicago. The assumption that new city apartments only compete with existing city appartments is probably inaccurate.

replied to NBuffguy
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I hear most of the interior walls are concrete so much of the interior is going to be gutted and rebuilt.

I think its just good for Buffalo to have this building survive.

Now if Buffalo can only convert buildings like the RAND, HYATT and/or LIBERTY to mixed use then maybe we can infill with some new office buildings.

Personally, Id like to see something big and grand reconstructed like the Iroquois Hotel or the precurser to the Statler which was the Art Nuveau Hotel Buffalo. These were incredible buildings with alot of character...put an old building and then right next to it something very sleek & modern.

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Buffalo should consider itself the midsize paris of the great lakes.

Chicago and Cleveland may be bigger but they dont have Buffalo's history which combines the eastcoast with the midwest for richness.

The other rivals like Detroit and others are shrinking and demolishing.

Rochester may be wealthier but its just a canal town. It has ZERO urban center, split by a canal and a river gorge and is really a accumulation of suburbs. Rochester will never knit itself into a city.

Buffalo has the architectural, international and cultural history much of it still existing and with a few reconstructed GEMS become something truly world class.

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Oui.

replied to paulsobo
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That is a weird - ass looking building. The proportions between the different parts of the building don't look right somehow. I like it.

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I'll try being a peacemaker on this - let's toss the 'only' and decree that you and the other Dave are each half correct, so it will be 50% competing with city apts and 50% competing with apts in the burbs.
(and no competition with Chicago - sorry NBuffguy, I'm not a skilled enough peacemaker to have all 3 of you be winners)

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Or perhaps it is 90% in competiton with the suburbs. You don't know. There are a lot of dumpy 70's and 80's vintage parking lot apartment complexes in the sububs that are fast becoming unattractive. Many people who like bigger appartment buildings versus the typical Buffalo 2 flat will be choosing between a new downtown loft with 10 to 12 foot ceillings, modern kitchens and increadible views in the city and a cummy shag carpet Cheektowaga place with parking lot views and 8 foot ceillings. I am thinking the downtown loft wins most times.

replied to whatever
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That's of course if your price range is 1200 and up. For most people that are renting an apartment that is waaaay too much. Why rent for 1200, when you can make an investment in a house for 1200?

replied to STEEL
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I feel the same way but there are a lot of valid reasons people will pay that much in rent vs home ownership. One reason is that it is tough to find a house with the amenities of a new loft or apt at that price point in those locations.

Another is commitment. It is not difficult to afford $1,200 / mth for one year but it is for a 30yr mtg. Some people also like the freedom to move after a years time. Others may only be here for a short period for college or grad school.

And last, owning a home is a huge responsibility many are not comfortable with. You also cannot just figure the monthly payment when budgeting as there are inevitable maintenance expenses that apartments do not have.

replied to KangDangaLang
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Exactly. Different strokes for different folks. Not everyone wants a 100 year old detached home - being able to offer a variety of options, at a variety of price points, in a variety of areas around the city is what vibrancy is all about.

replied to brownteeth
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True, I def agree with all of your points. But, those that fall into those groups are a very small portion of the population. Thats why I believe once the Lafayette and the Greystone are done we might start reaching market capacity, as I believe you will run out of your core target demographic.

replied to brownteeth
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To paraphrase your own words, do you have any numbers to back up your claim?

replied to KangDangaLang
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Nope, it's just my opinion, mixed with logic and personal experience. Unlike someone on here who thinks that people living in Section8 housing are good economic stimulators.

replied to The Kettle
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There is nothing wrong with using your own experience as evidence to support your viewpoint. There are a lot of things in the real world that cannot be explained by spreadsheets alone. However, since you have demanded "numbers" from others here expressing their views, you ought to hold yourself to the same standard.

You also ought to at least look at some numbers too if you really consider your claims "logical."

Speaking of numbers, the census bureau has lots of easy to read and relevant ones listed on their American Community Survey website.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=01000US&_geoContext=01000US&_street=&_county=Erie+County&_cityTown=Erie+County&_state=04000US36&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=geoSelect&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010&_submenuId=factsheet_1&ds_name=ACS_2009_5YR_SAFF&_ci_nbr=&qr_name=®=%3A&_keyword=&_industry=

To your claim that the core demographic of downtown housing is drying up, The "social characteristics" portion of the ACS estimates that a whopping 73 percent of Erie County households do not have children under the age of 18. These people don't have the obvious need for things like yard space, schools, malls etc and wouldn't consider the perceived lack of these downtown as a liability.

If you click "economic characteristics," you will see that a healthy 36% of all households in the county earn over 50k which, in most cases, would put a 1k apartment in their price range.

That doesn't include others in the metro area and Ontario that may consider downtown housing as one of many alternatives. In other words, there appears to be plenty of customers for places like the Greystone for a very long time.

replied to KangDangaLang
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I appreciate the comment back, but those stats are for Erie County and not Buffalo. I also see the argument you're trying to make by saying that the metro could support more apartments like this in the city. The problem with that is getting suburban dwellers too leave there suburban residence for DT. Right now the biggest thing holding people back are the school. I'm 28 and my GF and I have thought about selling our house in Cheektowaga or moving into the city. But, everytime the conversation comes up it ends on school choice. If we sent our kids to a city school it would have to be Hutch Tech, City Honors or maybe 1 or 2 charter schools. So, until that happens the city will never gain the key demographics they need for upper/middle class infill. Which is how I reache my opinion that the city is reaching its maximum occupancy for these types of projects.

replied to The Kettle
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As I said in my above comment, households with children are a relatively small demographic so city school boogymen won't be much of an issue for a good chunk of the market. That may not be the case with you and your significant other but it is wrong to assume most people are in the same situation you are. Actually, Census numbers indicate the opposite.

There are plenty of other people out there who could support more units downtown. Like other goods and services, most reasonable people will chose the best overall product and not automatically check the city off the list.

My guess is that downtown residential development will follow a similar upward spiral pattern followed by other neighborhoods. As more people move in, services an amenities follow, which brings more residents, and so on and so on...

replied to KangDangaLang
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Being that most of them are full the day they open this does not seem to be a problem. I have no stats but my thinking is that downtown is the new rental market in the metro area for larger apartment complexes, not Hamburg, not Tonowanda, not Amherst.

By the way - since the crash many people can no longer get mortgages, some people don't have a down payment, and some people just don't want to own. In any event I think downtown is not necessarily in competition with other parts of the city for rentals.

replied to KangDangaLang
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If they cant get a mortgage, they're not going to be forking over 1200 plus for an apartment either.

replied to STEEL
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Well that's just false if you're talking about a large portion of 20-30 year olds who don't have down payments saved up yet or have too much debt to qualify. I also don't think there's any support for "But, those that fall into those groups are a very small portion of the population." Even if we were to assume that you're right, there's certainly no harm in attracting people for other cities with the new housing options.

replied to KangDangaLang
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Just because they don't qualify for a mortgage on paper does not mean they can't afford the monthly payment. I make extra money via various odd jobs that I can't claim on a mortage app. Some people make good money but have terrible credit. Plus it's a short term commitment.

I also think there are as many renters out there as homeowners. Just look at how many duplexes we have in the city vs single family homes (that many rent too). Obviously only one unit at most is owner occupied.

replied to KangDangaLang
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Well that is just a completely unsubsantiated statement

replied to KangDangaLang
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Really? So in the second poorest city in America, which has a median household income of $24536 you're telling that we have a wealth of citizens who are willing to pay 14,400 a year for rent? And im the one making unsubsantiated statements? Come on maaaaaaan, lol.

replied to STEEL
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You said if they can't get a mortgage then they are not forking over $1200 plus for rent. I am saying that is an unsubstantiated statement. I would even go so far as to say that it is an untrue statement.

As for Buffalo being the second poorest city. Certainly it is very poor but that statistic is skewed by the variable boundaries of other metros in the comparison. As a metro Buffalo is not the richest but it is also not poor.

As far as paying these rent levels - I think the current stats show that people are paying them in Buffalo and seem to be lining up to do so.

What exactly is your point anyway?

replied to KangDangaLang
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"You said if they can't get a mortgage then they are not forking over $1200 plus for rent. I am saying that is an unsubstantiated statement. I would even go so far as to say that it is an untrue statement."

I know, here's where I want you to provide information back up your point that its an untrue statement.

"think the current stats show that people are paying them in Buffalo and seem to be lining up to do so."

Ahhhh stats my favorite word. Do you have any stats?

replied to STEEL
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Yes - the occupancy rate for apartments downtown is near 100%. They rent as soon as they come on line. Aslo not beaing able to get a mortgage is not the same as not being able to afford the mortgage. They may not have a 20% down payment. They may be able to afford $1,200 for rent but not $1,200 plus another $300 condo assessment plus another$150 in taxes, plus another$300 in insurance plus maintenance. They may have had financial troubles 6 years ago which would disqualify them for a mortgage even though they make enough money now. They may have just started a new job which would give them trouble getting a mortgage. Perhaps they started a new business and the bank does not like the source of their income. Perhpas they just got divorced - another thing that makes banks hinkey now. There are many reasons why people can't get mortgages that have nothing to do with being able to pay for one. Then of couse there are people who don't want to own property. Those people rent.

Now what is your point? Is your point that it is inconceiveable that people that would have formerly looked for an apartment in the suburbs might now want to live in the city? Is your point that the city should only build apartments for the poor becasue there is no market for higher end rents - even thought there is, as has been demonstrated by each new building to open? What is your point?

replied to KangDangaLang
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Anyone making over $12/hr can afford $1,200/ mth. I realize it may not be the wisest financial move but if you add a roomate / boyfriend / girlfriend to the equation and if both people make min. wage then it is certainly doable.

One big demographic that can easily afford these rent prices but don't qualify for a mortgage are service industry folks. Most don't claim their tips to avoid taxes but consequently can't claim that income. We have lots of these people in Buffalo.

Also banks are stricter than ever on giving out mortgages and for good reason. People who don't qualify now would 5 years ago without a problem.

There are many more examples I can give. Furthermore, the developers that stand to lose money wouldn't be going through with these projects if there wasn't data / research to back it up.

replied to KangDangaLang
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So someone earning 1920 dollars a month before taxes can afford a 1200 a month apartment? If you take into account that after taxes their only probably pulling in 1400 dollars that statement is absolutely ridiculous. Even factor in a roommate and your still talking about only 800 a month in extra income. That's only 200 a week. Then take into account food, transportation, cable, internet, electricity, clothes, entertainment, and god forbid if they have a car. In your hypothetical case no its not possible, or economically responsible for someone making 12 dollars an hour.

"One big demographic that can easily afford these rent prices but don't qualify for a mortgage are service industry folks. Most don't claim their tips to avoid taxes but consequently can't claim that income. We have lots of these people in Buffalo."

My GF used to be a waitress in the city and there was no way she was pulling in close to 2G's a month. Plus, all of her co-workers lived in cheap apartments ranging from 350 to maybe 700 dollars a month. And, the ones living in the nicer apartments all had GF's or BF's.

replied to brownteeth
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What I'm talking about is comparing how feasible it is for someone to get into a $1200/mnth apt versus obtaining a mortgage that equates to the same amount.

A lot of people out there are willing to pay high rent for a nice place because it's relatively short term and they know that every month the payment is exactly the same. Owning a home has way more uncertain costs that scare people off because you need to make that much more money to cover the burden.

So to simply say that someone cannot afford a $1200/mnth apt because they cannot afford the same mtg payment is not really true. There are way more factors involved as listed in other comments here.

replied to KangDangaLang
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"So to simply say that someone cannot afford a $1200/mnth apt because they cannot afford the same mtg payment is not really true."

I wasnt saying that. My comment was in response to your comment of....

"Anyone making over $12/hr can afford $1,200/ mth"

.....which is just not true at all. I agree though that a very small percentage of people dont have the 10-20% percent to put down on a house, but could afford a 1200 a month rent payment. But, there are a couple programs through HSBC for first time home buyers where you need no money down.

replied to brownteeth
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I was referring to your earlier post:
"If they cant get a mortgage, they're not going to be forking over 1200 plus for an apartment either."

Affording the monthly cost is relatively easy, it's the down payment, taxes, insurance, maintenance, etc. that is the difference between living in a $1200 a month apartment or a house.

Believe it or not I have had a few friends that literally spent their whole check on rent so they can live in a nice loft. I know it's not typical or smart but it is possible if you're dumb enough :)

replied to KangDangaLang
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Your myopic sense that only poor people live in Buffalo and that only people already in the city would consider living in the city is keeping you from seeing the reality that downtown is drawing from a larger sector.

Also of interest, I have heard that several of Buffalo's businesses have been using the new downtown loft supply as a recruiting tool.

replied to KangDangaLang
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You just side stepped my whole point, but I expected that. Have a nice weekend!

replied to STEEL
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Actually I have not, it is actually you who continues to ignore the obvious that everyone else is pointing out. The Downtown market is a growth market because the demographic has changed along with new more exciting product offerings to create a very strong sustainable new market.

replied to KangDangaLang
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.......maybe buffalo can start pulling residents from Chicago?

replied to STEEL
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steel>"Your myopic sense that only poor people live in Buffalo and that only people already in the city would consider"

Is it my imagination, or do you and armchair really love to add that word 'only' into other people's arguments to make straw men? I wonder if it's like that in real life too or just in your blog comments? Here's a 1-act play to illustrate.

STRAW MEN ONLY - by whatever

[Scene 1 outside a locally owned boutique on a day when Steel is visiting]

Bystander: Hey, it's snowing.

Steel: You're being myopic to say the only weather Buffalo ever has is snow.

Bystander: Huh? I didn't say that.

Armchair: You're bashing city parts of Buffalo to say this is the only place it ever snows.

Innocent Bystander: Wait, I didn't say that either…

Armchair: Even if you didn't say it, it's obvious you want people to believe it.

Bystander: Okay guys, take care. I have to go to the Galleria for something.

[Arm & Steel in unison]: You're saying Galleria is the only place ever worth shopping at!

[Bystander jogs toward a bus stop and pretends to not hear them.]

THE END

(Mr. Poloncarz, where can I pick up the cultural funding I'm entitled to for this?)

replied to STEEL
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Pot, meet Mr. Kettle... for the umpteenth time.

replied to whatever
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arm, not really pot-kettle. You guys can criticize my views of course and what I actually say is more than fair game.
Still, I don't slip 'only' into paraphrasing to mislead about someone else's words. It looks like steel did exactly that to burch above - twice in one sentence in fact, as quoted. You've done it about me too, although perhaps not at blatantly as steel's twice in same sentence maneuver. (lol - maybe he can coach you up to that level some day!)

replied to The Kettle
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The fact that you wrote your play with the ink barely dry on your extreme progressives vs Wegmans strawman certainly makes you look like a pot heckling a kettle. Is using the word "only" to paraphrase someone's point any worse than falsely equating higher density zoning elements with banning all Wegmans stores?

Sure all of our comments are fair game. But it is just too funny to watch you rag on others for for making the same presumptions and embellishments of other people's comments that you do.

Again, I think you mistake the comments following the articles on this site for some sort of legally binding forum. Other people using the word "only" and your comment minefield escape clause words "mostly" "occasionally" "sometimes" etc. really don't mean much on a blog comment thread.

As far as the funding goes, I'd be all in favor of Hypocrisy Theater getting a fair and proportionate amount of funding to encourage creativity. If you could tie it in with a play critiquing others getting public funding it would be fitting to your production company's name. Though you may want to be careful as being seen as an "arteest" might hurt your standing in the "reality" set.

replied to whatever
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"Again, I think you mistake the comments following the articles on this site for some sort of legally binding forum"


This coming from the same guy who said that Tim Tielman should sue people on this site for criticizing him, pot meet kettle :-)

replied to The Kettle
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Wha? I never said that my friend.

replied to KangDangaLang
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It could have been Travelrrr? And in that case I apologize, but you run with wovles you get fleas.

replied to The Kettle
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Nor I. Sorry Burch. Keep tryin'.

replied to KangDangaLang
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burch, you're right that happened - google says twice - but in fairness to arm & trav it wasn't either of them.

http://www.buffalorising.com/2011/10/whatwastherecom-past-vs-present-photos.html#comment-79507
"if i was tim tielman i'd sue bro for allowing such relentless slander"

http://www.buffalorising.com/2010/12/canal-side-call-for-submissions.html#comment-56964
"i'm tired of seeing tielman blamed for "everything i resent about buffalo." it borders on libel, and if you or bro get sued for perpetuating libel, you deserve it."

replied to KangDangaLang
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Yeahhhhh!!!! Better than an episode of Jersey Shore. The plot thickens... Enter: grad94

replied to whatever
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Opps, travelrrr - actually burch was right - you did say it too, couple months ago.
I goofed the first time - sorry burch, I overlooked another in google result list for libel tim tielman. Who'd have thought those words would be near each other on so many web pages?

http://www.buffalorising.com/2011/10/take-a-trip-to-larkinville.html#comment-80083
"...There are limits to free speech when your implicit attempt is to give Tim a negative image.
I agree with Grad-I am surprised Tim hasn't gone after people hell bent on vilifying him."

replied to whatever
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Ahhhhhhh sweet vindication, thanks whatever!

replied to whatever
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"ink barely dry on your extreme progressives vs Wegmans strawman"

It wasn't a strawman just because City Hall disagrees with what he advocates. Yes, the person I argued with really brought up the huge Wegmans out of thin air as a negative about what shouldn't be allowed anywhere in the whole city. Used per sq foot tax payments as an argument. True story. Good thing his view wasn't shared in the mayor's office back when. How many Buffalonians would prefer a huge Wegmans to have been not allowed? That was the context of me saying bossy, extremist, and control freakishness - and I think those are fitting descriptions about wanting to apply a rule like that onto the whole city. I didn't use them lightly.

"comments following the articles on this site for some sort of legally binding forum"

Of course not. Still, a grown up shouldn't need legal bindingness to not blatantly misquote someone he's arguing with. How steel did that with phony 'only's about burch deserved at least some ridicule.
And btw, notice several people who have voting privileges liked my little play's satire about him doing that!
I doubt I've ever gotten that many +'s. All in good fun of course.

replied to The Kettle
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Actually, what prompted your bossy remark was when DS said development around the existing NB big boxes "should not be allowed to done in the *same manner,* followed by a remark about the ills of two specific zoning codes. (At this point, a more mean spirited person may post those codes along with dictionary definitions of "same" and "manner" but I think that would be excessive.)

"Same manner" could just mean big boxes would be allowed but not in the same scale and size allowed currently. He could just be saying big boxes are welcome as long as they can integrate their stores into the surrounding urban fabric as is law in places like East Aurora, or done willingly like the Tops on Seneca St in SBuffalo.

He mentioned economic models but that appears to have more to do with density and preferential treatment of the Delaware Consumer Square developers. Again nothing saying anything about "disallowing" these places outright.

Claiming that DS and other "control freak bossy" types seek to "disallow" Wegmans and similar retailers looks like a strawman argument by anybody's definition of the phrase. Coming from somebody who holds Steel, myself, and others to strict, letter-of-the-blog-comment standards when critiquing your comments, it certainly makes your strawman cries look hypocritical.

replied to whatever
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That was brilliant, I would like to see that play. It could debut on a trial run here in Buffalo before opening in Chicago.

replied to whatever
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I don't think Hypocrisy Theater does any performances in central cities.

replied to pampiniform
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Thanks pampin, a road version could be a good idea. And besides traveling theater, maybe the plot could be shown in murals on sides of under-appreciated world famous big empty buildings.
Please put in a kind word with your county legislator about my public funding demands as a new cultural org!

replied to pampiniform
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A successful rehab may get Carl back in the circle of trust.

Score: -2 ( 4 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

The post that “too many new apartments are being built in Buffalo,” by evidence, appears inaccurate.

The Medical Campus’ sonic expansion and employment opportunities, alone, are providing many rental tenants and candidates. Rocco Termini can verify that.

Also, to people who relocate from California cities, Chicago, etc. $1,200 probably is a bargain to them for what they get.

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anyone notice in the one picture of the front entrance. the car window is missing and plastic is ducked taped? I hope they put up security cameras and brighter lighting on this little block before selling the idea of living here. I know from experience, this is a bad block to leave a car on and that missing window just matches up.

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