City December 18, 2011 9:46 AM

Can Buffalo attract just 1% of the Boomers?

Can Buffalo attract just 1% of the Boomers?
By Randy Reade (aka Rand503):

Buffalo has a unique opportunity to recapture a share of the middle class and become a thriving city once again.  It's not terribly difficult, it's happening already, and the benefits could be enormous.  It just needs to market itself to the retiring baby boomers as a place to retire.

Yes, I know that everyone's grandparents couldn't wait to leave the ice and snow for sunny Florida.  But there are certain demographic tides that even the most cynical of people cannot ignore.  According to the LA Times, "This year, the oldest of the 78 million people born from 1946 to 1964 are turning 65 and becoming senior citizens. Because of the immense size of this baby boom generation, the number of senior citizens will more than double between now and 2050, from 40 million to 89 million. And older folks will make up an ever-larger share of the population, increasing from 13% now to 20% in 2050."  If Buffalo can capture just a small fraction of those retirees, it could greatly increase it's population and regain a share of the nation's wealth.  

As Boomers retire, they will sell their suburban house because it's too big for the empty nesters, too much upkeep, and they have a lot of equity in it.  They will sell it and buy something downsized, and put the remaining funds in more liquid investments.  Where will their move to?

Contrary to popular belief, baby boomers are not planning to retire in huge numbers to Florida, Arizona or other traditional retirement places.  There are various reasons why they won't.  Of course, those areas have been hit hard by the mortgage crisis, making people skittish about sinking their retirement investment there.   But the bigger reasons are less obvious and are in many ways unique to the baby boomers.

Boomers are always rebelling against their parents.  Whatever the parents did, the Boomers have to do something else.  Retiring to Phoenix is something that their parents did, but it certainly won't be for them.  Florida and Arizona are places where old people go to retire.  Boomers will never admit they are old, and so want to avoid any implications that they are aging.  

In addition, this is the most highly educated workforce in American history.  Most went to college and grew up in an idealistic era.  They will want to continue their education at quality universities, or they will want to take up painting, music playing, take classes in poetry or obtain a degree in medieval Welch law.    They will want to attend theater, opera, ballet, symphony and visit museums.  They want to hear their own music that they grew up with in bars and restaurants that have a rock band.

Boomers have been successful in business.  They gained skills in organization, leadership, company building, and community outreach.  Once they retire, they still have those skills, and won't want to let them go to waste.  They will want to give back to the community by heading up or advising non-profits.  Few want to fill their days just playing golf, and the traditional retirement cities in the south are lacking in universities and culturals to satisfy their desires.   Some will want to start their own business.

Even more, Boomers value their independence.  They want to live in a place that they can walk to the store, take public transportation or share rides easily, just in case they ever become so debilitated that they can't use a car.  They won't give up the car unless they have to, of course, but they want the option that IF they have to give it up, they still won't be a burden on anyone to drive them around town.  

They want an inexpensive place to live so that they can stretch their dollars on a fixed income.  They want a safe, affordable condo or apartment, or small house that hey can take care of easily, and sell easily if they need to move to a full care facility.  They want to be near doctors, hospitals and medical care that understands their needs, and they don't want to have to shovel snow anymore.

If you haven't realized that Buffalo is an ideal place to capture at least a share of the Boomers, then you haven't really been thinking very hard.   Our city has in abundance all the elements that the Boomers are looking for, and there is no reason why Buffalo can't compete with any other city for retirees.   We have the system of public transport, density, culturals, colleges and universities, sports teams, and a thriving nonprofit sector.  There is more than enough activities for any retiree to keep busy.  Frankly, to paraphrase Samuel Johnson, if you get tired of what Buffalo has to offer, you are tired of life.

Some will scoff -- what about the weather?  Yes, of course, the weather is a turn off for many people.  But it's only a few months out of the year, and the real problem is just shoveling snow on your driveway.  But if you live in a condo or apartment, you don't have to do that.  Let's build residential buildings that cater to retirees, that have kitchens designed for walkers and wheelchairs.  We going to have to do it anyway to accommodate the millions of elderly soon, so we might as well do it in a way that is proactive.  

What about crime?  The two major reasons people moved to the suburbs in the 60s and 70s is crime and schools.  Retirees don't care about schools, since their children are already grown up.  Therefore, if you take care of the crime, you can attract the very people who left.

So what does Buffalo have to do to attract to retirees?  Already, real estate agents find that retirees want to be in the city, closer to the fun restaurants and nightlife. They are already leaving the grassy lawns and leaky roofs to live in a condos and historic houses.  The cost of living is fine.   But we can do more.

First, we should have a plan that identifies which parts of the city are most friendly to retirees.  They would also be the parts that are walkable, have good bus lines, are close to the sorts of activities they want, and are safe.  We should encourage developers to build condos and apartments that would cater to their needs.  Such buildings must be fully handicapped accessible so that even wheelchair bound people can live independently.  A full time nurse should be available on the premises or close by.

Second, our local institutions should develop programs that will attract retirees.  Our schools and day care facilities should have an outreach program.  Afterall, children and old people go together like peas and carrots, and both benefit from interaction.  The culturals should have programs that not only offer creative arts developments for people, but also push ahead in the area of music and art therapy.  These are not just fun things, but have a demonstrated ability to improve ailing patients.  

Third, our city should develop a marketing program in retirement newsletters letting people know that they should consider us for retirement.  And we should do everything to convince the local population in the suburbs that the time to move back is now.  

If Buffalo can attract just 1% of the Boomers to move to Buffalo, it will more than double the current population.  I live part of the year in Washington, DC, and I was surprised by a couple that I know.  They will soon be contemplating retirement, and the wife went to a website to find out where they might consider living.  The website asked all sorts of questions of what type of community they want, what type of lifestyle they would like to pursue, and their budgets.  After they plugged that all in, they were shocked to find that Buffalo, NY, came up as their No. 1 place to retire.  She was so surprised, she called to tell me.  Since they had never been to Buffalo before, I offered to give them a tour any time they want to visit, and they really think they will take me up on the offer.  

It was a real eye opener to those lifelong Washingtonians that Buffalo actually has everything that would like in a retirement city.  It wasn't to me, of course, but I think it's time to let the rest of the world know.

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I like this story. It's interesting and well thought out. The only things I would change are the persistent, underlying theme of shock and surprise that Buffalo is a great place to live and, secondly, that winter is somehow bad. Buffalonians, and writers about Buffalo, seem to almost ALWAYS be shocked when somebody finds Buffalo great, winning, interesting beautiful or any other positive. Secondly who said winter is bad? Why must winter always be portrayed as bad? My idea of retirement is here in the Buff. But if I had to leave it would be to Maine or Vermont not Florida or the (ugh!) Carolinas. Please, for those of you in a position to write publicly about Buffalo, stop with the downtrodden, negative, defensive, shocked attitude about Buffalo. I have said this many times before, and I will say it again, it's REALLY time to start getting just a little smug about our city...in fact it's long overdue. And stop being so defensive please. Like the community's reaction to the hockey player who posted a picture outside his hotel room that was supposedly less than flattering! Who cares? I was recently in New York City and the view from many of the Hotel room windows was a wall of another building. But it's New York City, the Big Apple, so everything is good, even when it's not. See what I mean? Time to Smug-it-Up a bit Buffalonians. It's a way of supporting and promoting our city without seeming defensive. Other people and places are noticing: we just have to start believing it ourselves. It's overdue and we deserve it.

Score: 17 ( 19 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I don't think public transportation can be counted as one of Buffalo's assets. The NFTA website, alone, is abysmal.

Score: 6 ( 12 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Security is important. What we need is some kind of study comparing us on this level. Farmers insurance does this annually. Two years ago Buffalo was not on the top 20 list. Last year we were 19th. This year we are 6th.

Now its time to lobby for lower insurance rates :)


http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/secure_places_to_live_2011.aspx

"Secure Places to Live 2011
EIGHTH ANNUAL FARMERS INSURANCE STUDY RANKS THE

MOST SECURE PLACES TO LIVE IN THE U.S.

Pittsburgh rated country’s most secure large metropolitan area

LOS ANGELES — Farmers Insurance Group of Companies® annually ranks nearly 400 U.S. communities based on safety and security. In its Eighth Annual Most Secure Places to Live in the U.S. study, Farmers has rated Pittsburgh, Pa., as the most secure U.S. community among large metropolitan areas (population of 500,000 or greater).

The Kennewick–Richland–Pasco, Wash., area is the most secure mid-size U.S. city (population between 150,000 and 500,000), while Ithaca, N.Y., ranks as the most secure small town (population less than 150,000).

The rankings, compiled by Best Places expert Bert Sperling (www.bestplaces.net) took into consideration crime statistics, extreme weather, risk of natural disasters, housing depreciation, foreclosures, air quality, terrorist threats, environmental hazards, life expectancy, mortality rates from cancer and motor vehicle accidents, and job loss numbers in 379 U.S. municipalities. The study divided the communities into three groups: large metropolitan areas, mid-size cities and small towns."


Score: 5 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

How about offering residency to immigrants upon graduation of a four year college? I'd rather attract those that will have years of taxable income rather social security checks and the exorbitant costs of end of life care.

United States was build on the backs of immigrants it is time to stop being scared of our piece of the pie growing smaller and focus on growing the pie larger.

I'm with Bloomberg on this one, lets fill out vacant housed with people that want to be in this country and will invest their lives into building a better future for their families.

Score: 9 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

My parents just moved here from Long Island. They're doing the snowbird thing...live here from April/May to December, and a condo in Florida for the winter. They like Florida, but they love it in Buffalo.

Another important asset we have that's important to seniors is healthcare. My parents liked the healthcare options we have here; the expansion of the Medical Campus will only improve our healthcare resources.

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just as important as attracting boomers (or anyone) from elsewhere is keeping the ones we have. we have a good number of retirees on public pensions. better we keep that money circulating locally rather than exporting it to florida or arizona.

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Well if a baby boomer is planning on retiring we should make it imperative that they do not talk to a tax or financial planner when it comes to residency and taxation, especially if they have money.

Maybe we can create a NY State tax where the money goes to blocking boomers from communicating with these type of people?

replied to grad94
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Well if a baby boomer is planning on retiring we should make it imperative that they do not talk to a tax or financial planner when it comes to residency and taxation, especially if they have money.

Maybe we can create a NY State tax where the money goes to blocking boomers from communicating with these type of people?

replied to grad94
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Karl, if you don't like the way things are done, get investors together, hire some lobbyists, and go to Albany to advocate service gutting for fluffing the wealthy. There is nothing stopping you. Nothing.

If you guys are unsuccessful, maybe the region's redeeming qualities, mentioned by Rand and others commenting here, could be leveraged to offset the tax weakness. The issues of safety, environmental quality, and access to medicine, largely paid for with those high taxes, can be strong draws too.

replied to MaterialGirl
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Actually New York has relatively favorable taxation rules for retirees, especially those who have government pensions. New York is one of ten states that does not tax federal, state or local pensions. So if a retired schoolteacher living off of a pension stays in New York, they will not pay state income tax on it, but if they move to Arizona for example, then they'll be subject to Arizona's state income tax.

replied to grad94
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Great post, Randy (I like the concept ALMOST as much as making Buffalo a preservation/restoration capital. Wait, maybe the two are linked :))

I totally agree with the premise and, for this reason, feel the conversion of Millard Filmore to a senior-targeted facility makes a lot of sense. Who wants to go out to Canterberry (sp?) in Williamsville, when few are likely to visit and there is nowhere to walk? Moreover, Gates Circle is an amazing address-close to the AKAG, Burchfield, Elmwood, Forrest Lawn (though they might avoid that), etc.

I also agree that the local institutions should be thinking seriously about this group. Is there even a SCORE in Buffalo, so that they could get involved with mentoring young businesspeople?

Saratoga Springs has become a retirement center for seniors because it is walkable, charming, has a very active SCORE, and has cultural organizations/attractions. Buffalo could replicate this, and then some.

Finally, it cannot be overstated that many of the Sunbelt regions (from Phoenix to Boca) simply don't have the cultural depth or history of Buffalo and, accordingly. just aren't that interesting. Frankly, they are drop dead boring and synthetic.

In Buffalo, seniors can have golf AND museums. It's a win-win.

There was an article about this trend (seniors returning to Rust Belts) several years ago (maybe in the Times). Seems like it may be time for Buffalo to really crank on the marketing to that segment.

Score: 5 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

What a brilliant idea, cater to old people. What Buffalo should be doing is making it easier for young people to open small businesses. Talk to any one under forty thats tried to open a small business in the city, and they'll tell you what a nightmare city hall gave them, how uncooperative and un-suportive the local government was to their cause. If this city wants to rebuild itself and see a spark of 'rebirth' and growth, we don't need to pander to retiree's. We need to implement a system that makes it easy for the people already here to build. I'd rather have 20 somethings flocking here to build stores and shoppes than old people who aren't going to contribute anything to the city but a little fast cash, and medical bills. Rather than actually develop a streamlined governmental system that allows it's own residents to rebuild the city, your suggesting we pander to the rest of the countries aged residue for a quick financial fix? Buffalo doesn't need to 'attract' and answer to it's financial problems. It needs to look inward.

Score: -1 ( 17 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Retirees aren't all poor. Most are actually middle class, and we could do worse than than to repopulate the city with energetic, engaged and experienced people who will shop in our stores and populate our cultural institutions.

In fact, Philadelphia has put together just such a program several years ago to attract both seniors and gay. http://www.phillymag.com/articles/contrarian_wanted_grays_and_gays/

I also agree that we should target immigrants. I'm in favor of repopulating the city just about anyone except criminals.

replied to cookbambi
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cookbambi- from nearly aged residue-youch!

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I think the babyboomers have been the least cheerleading of Buffalo. They were the ones who moved and lived in suburbs. Multiple articles have been written about them aging in place.

You have to provide amenities they could not get within a short drive. I have noticed many boomers at the Erie Basin Marina. I wonder the possibility of additional residences there in conjunction with realigning Erie st.

Score: 5 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Nice article and many thoughtful responses! Speaking as a boomer who recently retired, I think I am qualified to add to this topic.

I grew up in Buffalo until I was almost 16. My father got transferred to LA in the mid 60's just as the handwriting on the wall became more clear. Until then, the city was thriving and downtown was still vibrant. Much of my extended family remained there and my father eventually returned. My visits to the area were frequent over the subsequent years. I still have childhood friends after all the years that have lapsed. So, I had a back seat to the decline of WNY over these decades. But I find the new trends and developments in recent times to be nothing less than wonderous.

When I retired two years ago, I seriously considered moving back. I was about to inherit the house free and clear. But I chose to remain here in a famous desert resort that people in cold climates clamor to retire in.

I finally decided to stay for many reasons, but first and foremost were the winters. I can't deal with them due to some health limitations. Upper and lower are rented (one by a cousin) who looks after things. Yet the rents just barely cover the costs as the place is old and doesn't take the winters any better than I think I could.

Selling it is out of the question as 1)it isn't worth much and 2) I still might find a way to be a snowbird.

Champions of Buffalo (like the kind who frequent this site) seem to discount the winters as a serious factor. That is laudable as it is more than a fine place especially now. But speaking only for myself as someone who lived there and visited during winters in family emergencies, it is not for this boomer.

And the reason is just that. The winter! Perhaps that is more universal than some might think. Just IMHO, but worthy of the discussion here.

Score: 0 ( 4 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

pegger, the winters you remember are, well, a thing of the past. i am about to hop on my bike to go to work because it is 40F and there is no snow on the ground. my roses are blooming in december. cafes still have their tables out on the street.

climate change has been dumping buffalo's winters on coastal cities like new york, boston, washington, and philadelphia. i'd say winter is now a full month shorter than it was when i was a kid.

replied to Pegger
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That's not what we were saying this time last year. And there's a good chance not many will be saying that those tough winters are a thing of the past by the time April gets here this year.

replied to grad94
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Hey Pegger,

So, like you left Buffalo a half a century ago?

By the way, ask all of the retired people in Chicago about the Winter. The wind chill is often -30 degrees below zero. It's brutal and way worse than Buffalo. Believe me, not everyone there is clamoring to move to the warmer climates.

Few talk about the oppressive heat and sun, far unhealthier than cooler weather for older folks. Slather up that SPF 40 dude.

replied to Pegger
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Yes. I did leave long ago...45 years. But I have visited annually at least once if not twice. I have a viable, well-maintained two per. Yes, I am an out of state landlord to relatives still there.

I am invested there to be sure and I don't mean only financially. I am in this with everyone else.

I am a retiree with assets and semmingly the ideal boomer to be attracted to return.

replied to DOC
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"By the way, ask all of the retired people in Chicago about the Winter. The wind chill is often -30 degrees below zero. It's brutal and way worse than Buffalo."

You must have graduated from the Randy Reade school of logic. Because, according to these stats Buffalo on average is colder and windier.

Average Temperature
High Low City
56 40 Buffalo
61 45 Chicago

Average annual wind speed of the windiest US cities
(in miles per hour and kilometres per hour)
Mph Kph City
11.8 19.0 Buffalo
10.3 16.6 Chicago

replied to DOC
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Maybe I'm just a winter person, but I don't see how snow is still considered a major deterrant.

The west coast has beautiful weather, interspersed with fires, mudslides and earthquakes. Texas (and actually the entire south) is constantly vascilating between floods, tornados, droughts and water shortages. The Midwest and Northeast either have worse winters than we do, or milder winters plus a variety of summertime natural disasters. Living in Florida or the Gulf is Russian roulette of hurricanes and tropical storms.

Buffalo has amazingly near-perfect summertimes which it never seems to advertise. And our winters are managed quite well (try seeing 3" of snow fall on DC and you'll appreciate how well we handle 1+'). In a world where any news can be 'spun' to the good or the bad, Buffalo rarely takes the opportunity to play up its meteorological assets.

Score: 6 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

You have to figure those with health issues. My father has diabetes and received a new kidney for it 3 years ago. He's not very active at all up here but when they stay in their retirement home in Florida he's like a new person. The gloomy cold weather does affect people whether or not you like it or not.

Unfortunately with age comes health issues and if you have them or know someone who does then you'll understand the importance of warm sunny days. Besides, how many times can you visit the Albright Knox?

replied to DeanerPPX
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From my perspective, I've seen just the opposite.

My parents were both in their late 70s when they left Buffalo for warmer climates. Mom with diabetes and Dad with a knee replacement, they were both exceptionally active and healthy in Buffalo.

Within 5 years of settling into a suburban Atlanta lifestyle, their health changed dramatically for the worse. They don't go outside because of the heat and humidity. They drive everywhere and get no exercise. The smog and ozone affect their breathing. Granted, they consider their new life to be one of 'leisure', but their lack of activity has weakened them considerably. Their circulation can't handle temperatures below 60 or above 80. They've become bound to their couches, cars and scooters.

I would have passed these changes off as simply part of getting older, but I have relatives still in Buffalo who are heartier in their 90s than my parents in their early 80s. I have an in-law who is 102 and still walks unassisted to the local store in North Buffalo, while Mom is 81 and needs a walker to get from the kitchen to the living room (less than 10 years ago, she was hiking down the Niagara gorge!)

It might be a random example of health or genetic oddities, but I tend to agree with my parents' doctors... when you stop using it, you start to lose it. Some older folks may very well flourish in warmer climates, but my parents definitely are the opposite example.

With myself approaching 40, I see some of those same things happening to me. I'm using my parents as a warning to myself of how NOT to adjust my lifestyle as I get older, so that I can still be an active old man when I get back north.

(oh, and as for how many times you can visit the Albright Knox... that was one of the must-do items on their itinerary when they visited home for a wedding last year. To date, they have only once set foot in any of Atlanta's museums and attend the theater here a couple times a year, as opposed to several times a month when they lived in Buffalo. They complain that Atlanta's main library is smaller than our branch library in Cheektowaga. They laugh that a city of 5 million has fewer cultural resources than the individual neighborhoods they grew up in. I have a feeling that ammenities like that are also to blame for their lack of activity since they moved.)

replied to brownteeth
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I suppose it's all a matter of relativity. My Grandmother on my mothers side lived to be 93 in Naples, Fl in near perfect health until she fell and consequently passed away. My grandfather on my dad's side lived to be 88 in Las Vegas and he drank and smoke everyday. I don't think either of them would have lasted that long here.

For my parents, they are more active when it's sunny and warm out and like you said, the moment they stop moving their health will decline. The Buffalo winters are too harsh for some people to stay active at all. It's not just physical activity but mental too, it can get downright depressing here in the winter for a lot of people.

As for the Albright Knox, my point is that a museum is not something most people go to daily, weekly or even monthly so although it's nice a couple times a year, it won't be enough to keep most people here all year long.

replied to DeanerPPX
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"Their circulation can't handle temperatures below 60 or above 80. They've become bound to their couches, cars and scooters."

All of those comments you made about relatives is all genetic and has nothing to do with warm weather. Plus, heat actually thins your blood, which makes it easier on your heart to pump, so that point has no validity either. My grandfather is 75 and has been under the knife a multitude of times for bypasses etc. His doctor told him that staying in a warmer climate year round will add years to his life, by taking the stress of his heart. Most times when people move and their life becomes sedentary it has less to do with the city and more to do with being familiar with your surroundings and having friends to keep you busy. So there's another point shot to shit.

replied to DeanerPPX
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When it snows in DC, it usually melts within a week because, unlike Buffalo, the sun actually shines on most days between November and May.

replied to DeanerPPX
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And yet, cities such as Boston, Chicago and NYC receive at least the same amounts of snow as Buffalo, and people have no problem living there.

There is nothing we can do about the weather in Buffalo. And for some people, that's a deal breaker. I admit that. However, for many people it is not. I'm not saying that we must attract 100% or none of them. I'm merely saying that we can attract a small percentage.

For those who must play golf in the desert every day, Phoenix is the place to retire. But not everyone likes that. And many people wish to take art classes at the Albright Knox every week, and they in fact do.

replied to NBuffguy
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Great issue to discuss but there are some inherenet issues that need to be addressed as well. One if the idea of the dependency ratio, which is the percent of the population between 0-15 and 65+ compared to the percent 16-64. What you want to attract is more poeple in the 16-64 group as its the working age, taxpaying, weather producing, home buying and repairing, community active group. I'm not saying you don't want any retirees, but you don't want a veyr high proportion because they typically don't spend a lot of money because they're retired and are on limited incomes, which means they're less likely to invest in housing, make "disposible income purchases", have growing incomes, play major roles in the community, etc.

As for the snow, any argument by a current Buffalonian that snow is irrelevant is troublesome and shortsighted. Just because you MANAGE to deal with it doesn't mean other WANT to. There is a major leap in logic on the snow argument, and most pro-Buffalo arguments that things aren't "that bad," whether those things are crime, schools, snow, taxes, leadership, etc.

The problem with such arguments is they are put forth by people who are largely pro-city. Those people are put city living ahead of any inconvenience city living might have. However, the majority of the population, that doesn't put city living as the most important amentity, typically prefers low crime, off street parking, plowed roads, a yard, a good school district, etc.

When you don't have to live in the city and you can get to work anywhere in 20 minutes (save the anti-car rant, data shows that most EV dwellers drive a great deal to work and I know for a fact that parking is one of the biggest challenges in the EV), someone isn't going to choose what they consider a harder, less beneficial living arrangement.

The last thing I want to be doing at 65 is parking on the street, shoveling and walking to a second floor apartment or bedroom. So long as there are other options, retirees in large part won't choose that.

Score: -3 ( 15 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

First, there are plenty of retirees who live in Toronto, Chicago, Boston and NYC. So weather isn't the real issue. Of course, if it is for you, then you are free to move to warmer climes.

However, it isn't a deal breaker for lots people. For them, we should make the city attractive.

Second, not all retirees are poor, as I have tried to point out. Many are middle class, and some are even rich. Many of disposible income. If the choice is between an empty city and a city that is half full of retirees, I'll go with the retirees any day.

We have been trying for the last 30 years to reverse the population decline in Buffalo, and no one has yet come up with a solution. If you don't like this solution, I hope that you have something better. Plus, you short charge old people. Just because you are 65 years old doesn't mean you are bedridden with dementia. Many people in this age bracket are quite vital, have money to spend and have a lot to contribute.

Seeing as how Buffalo already have many amenities that retirees desire, it is a small effort to market to them and bring them here. Philly understands this and already has a program to attract both seniors and gays. If you really believe the city will be worse off to attract perhaps 10,000 seniors in the next few years, or that we should close the door to retiring suburbanites from Clarence and Amherst and tell them they must move out of state, I would very much like to understand your logic.

replied to buffalofalling
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"If you really believe the city will be worse off to attract perhaps 10,000 seniors in the next few years, or that we should close the door to retiring suburbanites from Clarence and Amherst and tell them they must move out of state, I would very much like to understand your logic."


Ahhh the typical STEEL esque "I'll put words in your mouth" turnaround argument. I don't think at any point in BuffaloFallings comment he said anything close to what you commented, or even hinted at it.

"And yet, cities such as Boston, Chicago and NYC receive at least the same amounts of snow as Buffalo, and people have no problem living there.

Really....?
City Inches of snow days of snow
Buffalo 94.7 61.8
Boston 43.8 22.4
Chicago 36.7 28.5
NYC 25.1 11.1

......hummmm it doesnt really look like Boston, Chicago, and NYC receive "at least" the same amount of snow as Buffalo. But, then again I wouldnt expect you to know how much snow Buffalo gets. Seeing that you dont even live in Buffalo.

"We have been trying for the last 30 years to reverse the population decline in Buffalo, and no one has yet come up with a solution."

......and yours isn't a good one either.

"Just because you are 65 years old doesn't mean you are bedridden with dementia. Many people in this age bracket are quite vital,"

I would like to see some statistics to back that up. Most 65 year olds I know are way less than "quite vital".

"Second, not all retirees are poor, as I have tried to point out. Many are middle class, and some are even rich. Many of disposible income."

Did you know that the average retirement income is only 29k dollars a year? And, do you think the "rich" retirees are coming to Buffalo to retire any time soon?

So with all your inaccuracies would you like to take another shot at writing a comment?

replied to Rand503
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Not really. If you think this is such a bad idea, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But I have no interest in getting into a mudslinging match with someone who clearly believes retirees are of so little value to our community that we can't be bothered to court even a single one of them.

replied to KangDangaLang
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rand>"with someone who clearly believes retirees are of so little value to our community that we can't be bothered to court even a single one of them."

"clearly"? How so? Notice burch used real quotes of you when disagreeing. Quite a contrast with your invented straw men.
Your claim about snowfall was especially wrong. For better or worse (depends on taste), Buffalo and Rochester both get much more snow on average than other U.S. metros of their size or greater. Also a lot more than Toronto. We can thank being off the eastern wind-facing side of huge Great Lake waters.

Some will love that much snow and some don't, but what's gained by pretending it isn't a lot more here?
http://www.currentresults.com/Weather-Extremes/US/snowiest-cities.php
Average annual snowfall for the snowiest large US cities:
Yearly Snowfall Inches
Rochester, New York 99.5
Buffalo, New York 94.7
Cleveland, Ohio 68.1
Salt Lake City, Utah 56.2
Minneapolis, Minnesota 54.0
Denver, Colorado 53.8
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 46.9
Boston, Massachusetts 43.8
Detroit, Michigan 42.7
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 41.9
Hartford, Connecticut 40.5
Chicago, Illinois 36.7
Providence, Rhode Island 33.8
Columbus, Ohio 27.5
Indianapolis, Indiana 25.9
New York, New York 25.1

Toronto: "average annual snowfall of about 133 cm (52 in)"
So even TO averages near what Minneapolis gets which is 40+ inches less per year than here and Roch.
Chicago, Boston, and NYC average even less than Minneapolis and TO.

burch points out this was wrong
rand>"Boston, Chicago and NYC receive at least the same amounts of snow as Buffalo"
… and instead of you just admitting a goof like we all make sometimes, you reply with another attack that looks made up too.
(Sorry if pointing out total b.s. makes anyone feel they're being prosecuted.)

replied to Rand503
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The aging boomers should live in Buffalo/Niagara in the summer, then leave town when winter hits. I think we all know people who do this.

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I'm not sure I'd focus as much on weather as some people in this discussion have been. Climate liabilities (perceived or real) are just one of several factors that make a region desirable. Local strengths that have already been mentioned here (culture, university, hospitals etc) factor into the overall appeal of a region every bit as much as the snow.

You don't see other growing regions in harsh climates like Texas, the Dakotas, and Alaska making excuses for their weather.

Falling> "The problem with such arguments is they are put forth by people who are largely pro-city."

Equally problematic are the the arguments trumpeting the region's shortcomings by those who are largely anti-city. Boogymen of city schools, city hall dysfunction, and wrongly depicting the city as unfit don't mean much to the general public who don't hold the same grudges.

Falling> "save the anti-car rant, data shows that most EV dwellers drive a great deal to work and I know for a fact that parking is one of the biggest challenges in the EV"

The "data" claim about drivers in the EV looks pretty weak. Parking is a challenge for those who drive but last I checked, the US Census showed tracts along Elmwood had a high percentage of alternative transit users relative to the region. That would indicate many people in the EV don't have to drive 20 min to work or esewhere.

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Just for the record the winters in Buffalo are long, cold, icy and snowy. They are enjoyable until about the end of January then they continue to go on and on, ending somewhere in early May. Snowbirding is the way to go as you leverage tax opportunities elsewhere but live in Buffalo roughly May-November

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