Why to 'Not' Join Occupy Buffalo

Brett,

If you really want to help Buffalo, use your Aerospace Engineering degree to make your fortune and to gain valuable experience in your chosen career field wherever it takes to make this happen and then RETURN to Buffalo.

The city will still be here waiting for your contribution but the difference being you will have the funds to make that happen.

So in this economy...

You have a degree that is no joke, and practically a guaranteed job with a median salary of $81K...

Yet you took a crap job here, are "plenty busy studying music part time at Buffalo State College, opening up this possible future career path". I assume you made that choice because there are so many musicians in Buffalo making a living wage in that career...

"I too am living with my parents because I am not making enough to rent my own place."

But according to what you say above, you could easily be making a good salary elsewhere...

"I have instead temporarily opted for a much lower paying job here in Buffalo with a local prominent developer because I believe in rebuilding this city more than making a great deal of money, at least in this stage of my life."

So you have chosen to NOT take a job that pays a living wage, instead, you have chosen to stay in Mommy and Daddy's house, because the job you DID take doesn't pay you enough to support yourself...

That's... interesting.

I REALLY liked the part where you denigrated the people with degrees in Business... You have a very narrow view of the world... but you're 22, so I'll cut you some slack.

Brett,
Could not agree with you more.. Too many people now are going to college just to get a degree, without foresight of what that degree can do for them after graduation. I am also an engineering grad and have never had a problem finding employment and advancing my career, even in hard economic times. I acknowledge the right of the occupiers to protest, but they have no goals, no focus and really no chance of affecting change with their current approach. Not to mention it is an absolute joke that they are allowed to pitch tents and sleep in Niagara Square. If they want to protest all night thats fine, if you want to sleep, go home!! These are the same people that will cry for larger goverment and want hand outs at every turn.. People are refusing employment now because they can earn just a little less on 99 weeks of unemployment while camping in Niagara Square!! I urge them to go do something productive and make Buffalo a better place, you'll be amazed at how quickly you will find employment!!

There's nothing wrong with either direction: Stay at home as long as mom and dad will pay for it and try to make a difference here (there's a powerful draw to staying with family!), or to go out into the world and (hopefully) come back home someday.

Or hell, he's only 22, he can do both! There's nothing saying he can't do this for a couple years, then go to CA or FL and get an aero job (or, hint hint, you could fight for one around here - Moog and Astronics might be interesting choices), and then come back. That's been done.

Sitting in a park crying "woe is me" is useless.

Brett, Good counterpoints to the previous pro demonstration letter. I'm impressed by your writing skills, especially since you're an engineer. I particularly agree with you about the demonstrators' lack of a "coherent strategy or focus" because it seems like we continually get a different explanation of what they're protesting against. At first I thought they were angry about the influence of big corporations on American politics and government. Then I thought they were upset about banks making big profits while taking a so-called bail out. Then it seemed like the demonstration was about American politics and culture in general. In some cities, these "occupy demonstrations" have turned into little more than tent cities for homeless people with no better place to go. Thanks for taking the time to submit your letter. When and if you decide to finally leave Buffalo, it seems likely that you will be a good reflection on your hometown and be a positive addition to whatever community you decide to join.

Well said, Brett! Good luck!

Brett- this is perfect. I know you'll return to buffalo and do great things (especially because you are a Canisius Grad). I am a civil engineering student who feels the same way.

Brett, if only the rest of your generation had the depth of understanding that you do, we would all be better off. You have a bright future ahead of you. Good luck, and keep fighting for Buffalo.

Amen.

While I agree with most of the content of your argument, I think it's a little to simplistic. While a degree should be seen as providing a foundation for economic security to some extent, I've always believed that education was meant to help an individual identify and build upon their strengths and passions. Sure, a job in aerospace engineering might pay me $81,000/year, but if I have to struggle through a 4 year program that I hate and then end up going to work every day for a paycheck instead of for a genuine interest in what I'm doing, what is my quality of life going to be like? I understand that there is a marked need for individuals to fill "engineering or hard science" positions, but we're not all wired for that same thing. I'm getting my masters in urban planning and I'll be lucky if I made half the salary of someone with an aerospace bachelors, but it's what I love and what I wake up and go to bed thinking about every night...

Until you actually HAVE a $81k job and a guarantee that you will not become part of that 3.8% unemployed at a moment's notice... you're still just an average Joe like the rest of us.

There's a large number of people out there who, five years ago, assumed that their degree and earning potential was a guarantee for life, and are now unemployed or working as a cashier at a gas station to keep an underwater roof over their heads.

It's great that you're using this time to do something that you find to be more important than a large salary. Others appreciate that. But why downplay the occupiers who are doing their part to protect your earning potential as well as their own? You could quite easily soon find your perfect aerospace engineering job outsourced to China or India where people have the same degree that you do, but will work for half your salary.

God forbid that should ever happen to you, but if it does, you might show a little more appreciation for these protesters who are also doing something that they feel is important.

Perhaps sleeping in a tent IS a desperate call for attention rather than a meaningful agent for change... but that's exactly the point. The fact that it's even being discussed is a step ahead of where we were two months ago. Without that attention, the mechanism for change will never even get started.

Almost every movement in history began with some sort of communal expression before the real gears of change started turning. We were throwing tea crates into the harbor before we declared American independence. We were sitting at lunch counters before we integrated schools. Thousands of students staying home and studying were not the impetus that convinced the US to pull out of Vietnam.

The Occupy protests might turn out to be as ineffectual as Tienamen Square. Or they might be the first step like Ghandi skipping lunch to turn his nation into a powerhouse that now rivals our own.

Like I said before in the last post, nothing replaces hard work. I too can sit in Niagara Square and hold up a sign that blames such and such person, company, gov't entity etc. for why I do not make more money.

The bottom line is that if you are truly sincere you would do whatever it takes to get ahead. If that means applying at Geico to make 30K to start (they're hiring), even though it's not what you really want to do, that's what you should do.

If you are resourceful, willing, and ready there are lot's of jobs that pay enough to at least rent your own place, own a car and buy food. In highschool I got a job cutting lawns for a small lawncare company that turned out to be a decent paying job that carried me through college.

It seems the problem with recent grads is that they don't want to apply for these jobs. They seem to feel it's beneath them and that they're entitled to a high paying job in their field simply because they sat in a classroom for 4 years after highschool. It doesn't work that way. You have to pay your dues and work from the bottom up, earn your way. Those jobs that you do not want to apply for may actually open doors for you. At the least you'll have some experience to put on a resume.

My advice is stop bitching and start doing. There's no one to blame but yourself.

Brett,

Good to see some balance. I can't say I would stay if I were you, but thank you for doing so and providing some topics/issues people like to conveniently forget.

I'm reserving judgement about Occupy Buffalo's workiing classes' efforts until winter 2012 is done. And, of course, what would really work can't happen. Aside from moving their savings around, too many of the working-classes need to go to their jobs to keep their jobs inorder to have money to move around! Too many of the working-class can't possibly take the chances necessary to be effective.

For now, Occupy Buffalo is a good-intentions, pioneering effort that is a history-worthy tiny footprints first. To bad there is no way to find out how many members of the working-class taxpayers are even paying attention anymore...

Whatever that 99% consists of, I am mostly aware that those in a "1%" of REAL wealth, (and I don't mean simply in an affluent catagory), are totally able go anywhere, do anything and mingle with other excessively wealthy anywhere on this entire planet. I don't believe the beyond-imagination wealthy are interested in what the 99% do... Otherwise, the advice to the young to become highly affluent and return to Buffalo, NY or stay here and try to reach affluency would be good for Buffalo, NY AND the young.

A good test of how many people are paying attention to what is going on round them would be learning how many people call their cable connections because they did not pay attention to what the Emergency Broadcast System will be doing soon...

Well written Brett-

I think your post speaks to personal responsibility; that we as individuals make a series of decisions that affect our lives, incomes, health, etc. I think many of those in the Occupy movement have a very external locus of control, meaning that they feel their life outcomes are primarily controlled by external forces vs. an internal locus whereby they chart their own destinies. That is the beauty of America. We have choices.

Wait a minute. You're only 22? And you wrote that by yourself without an editor? If that's the case dude, with your degree and your writing skills, you have a great future ahead of you.

Interesting article in the new york times today which talked about how one of the Verizon unions is visiting the occupy events (including buffalo's) and is promoting themselves or should I say hating on the company that they work for.

I'm glad that people are speaking up for what they are upset about. What is troubling is that tea party, occupy crowds, companies, and government are short on solutions and even shorter on compromise.

What a mess...

Dude... a little advise, go make your $81K, pay off your student loans, and then "re-find" your idealism. You should be about 35. Still young enough to fit in.

BTW, just visited Occupy Wall Street and it is a freak show of hyper-liberal activism. I consider myself liberal, and was pretty astonished by it all. Occupy = Tea Party IMHO.

to the protestors go home take a shower and go to work To everyone criticizing Brett can I just ask why? He isn't asking for a hand out from the government or unemployed he just chose to do what he enjoys and just happens to live at home but at least he is working and wants to help our city how can anyone complain about that

At 22, I can sympathize with some of Brett's understandings of how the world is supposed to work. That's how I thought it was going to be a few years ago when I was his age. That's certainly what everyone told me it was going to be like.

That great degree with huge earnings potential is very shiny and sparkly, until the student loans come in and the workforce turns out to be a very different experience from college life. Getting straight As and doing your homework guarantees you a degree, but it takes much more than that to hold a job. (oh, and that $81k median is for experienced workers, not the entry-level jobs that you'll need to put up with for the first 10 years while you gain all the hands-on experience that doesn't get taught in school). If you're lucky, you can even bypass the unpaid internship before you qualify for entry-level!

Being able to do something good for your community is excellent, until you need to choose your spouse and children over your own ideals and desires. Be sure to include some volunteer work for charities and religious institutions, it comes in handy to know how the system works if you ever need assistance yourself. And don't do charity work just to feel better about yourself. Pay attention and learn extra skills while you're at it in case you need to change job fields later on.

Having a guaranteed salary is such a comfort when your partner isn't in the same boat and you are suddenly carrying the weight of your entire family on one paycheck that turns out to be slightly more tenuous than the Wall Street Journal predicted. While you're doing that, be sure to set some money aside for the kids' college fund too.

Enjoy your time in Buffalo. See the world and do consider it a valuable learning experience to live in other cities before you return home with a broader view of what other places are like. Just be sure to time it well so that you don't get trapped in a boomtown that you absolutely loathe. Personal attachments can keep you there far longer than you'd hoped, and a slight swing of the economy can make it next to impossible to realize your dream of moving back to the home you love and desperately miss.

Living with your parents is a wonderful experience when it's a choice. It can quickly turn into a hefty burden of love when it becomes a necessity due to their age and/or health requirements. Especially if the pension plan that they were counting on turns out to be woefully inadequate. We're not just talking about money here, either. If you don't have the heart to put them in a facility, you'll also need to use a lot of your family, vacation and sick time to get them to doctor appointments.

Worrying about the health of your spouse, children and parents aside... be sure to watch out for your own health too! In a heartbeat, a distracted driver can put you in the hospital through no fault of your own and leave you with crushing medical bills and no way to earn an income.

That aerospace industry sounds like the dream job of the week! I had one of those until a terrorist attack downsized the economy for a few months and sent my entire skill set to Asia. Who'd have thought that being one of the best people in my profession doesn't count for squat when there are so many far less qualified people in Indonesia who will do the work for $2 an hour. Even if the job has to be re-done 10 times, it's still cheaper to send the work over there than pay me $25 an hour.

Personally, I was lucky to grab a foothold in another line of work and climb the ladder all over again, until that bubble burst too.

McDonalds and Walmart just LOVE to hire engineers with musical talent, trust me. Be prepared for the humiliation of striking every notable accomplishment off your resume so that you have even the slightest chance of getting a minimum wage job without your interviewer passing you over for someone less desperate. Oh, and don't waste your time asking for benefits... that's a sure way to kill your chances. Just be glad if you can snag one of those part-time minimum wage jobs. Minimum wage is higher now, so technically you ARE doing better than your first job in high school.

Personally, I kind of admire the people who are camping out in cities across the country. At least they are getting more visibility than the dozens of resumes I send out each day that get autoscanned and ignored (but who can blame employers for letting a computer do their hiring for them, when they receive 300+ applications for every job they post). Those protesters may not be accomplishing much, but they're doing better than I am sitting by the phone waiting for any crap assignment that my temp agency may offer at a moment's notice.

I'd really love to hear an update from Brett in 5 or 10 years and see how everything worked out for him. Scratch that, I'll be too busy building a time machine so I can go back and warn my own stupid-ass 22-year-old self not to count on the exact same rosy predictions that I had back then. The real world turned out to be much less sunny than I had expected it to be... and then it got even worse.

I take a quite a few people from out of town around the circle because they everyone seems to enjoy it all. People love to watch other people and it appears that the city has some life after 5pm which is very positive. I've got a mason jar filled with Argentinian Pesos and I have the folks from out of town throw the pesos at the feet of the citizens in protests. It's my way of saying I support you, although within limit.

People should be protesting government, not the banks. The administration enacted legislation further limiting fees banks can charge for transactions, as well as other regulations. They then proceeded to demonize banks for trying to make up for those losses with a 5$ monthly fee. Let's not forget that banks employ many people, and they provide a lot of services besides simply holding our money.

Government meddling in the 50's with low interest home loans via the FHA was part of the reason why our cities were decimated. This was followed by government instituted housing projects based on garden cities that ended up as breeding grounds for crime. That continues with their recent encouragement of subprime loans (via banks) because they think everyone deserves a house and land, regardless of our ability to pay for it.

The EPA made drilling for oil near our shores illegal, yet when the accident happened, the water was so deep that it took months to fix. In a real class act the EPA used the disaster to further demonize the oil industry, when without their regulations the problem may have been fixed much faster.

I could go on.

One of the best postings on this site I have ever read. Excellent.

I disagree with this young man. To say that he has opportunity for job's elsewhere that pay 81,00.00 a yr. is still at home and is going to tell me that he knows that we have it better than all other countries, has he actually been to these other countries he compares this country with and observe what goes on in these countries. I have lived in several other countries and found them in some ways better than the United States. He has made a broad observation with no experience to back it. You should take one of those jobs instead of pointing fingers. Dont worry about the Occupy movement.

Was the 3% unemployment figure before or after NASA scrapped their moon and mars programs? Numbers like that can change with the stroke of a pen in today's world.

Take a visit to Cape Canaveral or Houston and tell me how many space shuttle employees still think their aerospace degree is a guarantee for a great job.

There are great and totally realistic comments here for those newly graduated who are still young enough to be idealistic and enthuistic. And to whom college administrators and their professors will never admit there are no jobs. If they did, they would also be out of jobs. Student loans will be where the mortgage market is.

Scarily(sp), the best three rapidly growing jobs within Buffalo right now, that are spreading into the outer areas, are 1--social workers to take care of the tenants in the houses owned by 2--profits-only landlords.

Number 3 would be the unlicensed and non-responsible people who do the cheapest work possible for the landlords.

More realism: One form of workforce that won't be growing are much needed licensed roofers. In the meantime, though, that urban prairie keeps growing.

Sounds like Herman Cain got into everyone's water supply. If you're not rich it's your own fault. Right?

This protest gives me mixed feelings. On one hand these people are wasting time and money for themselves and our community, on the other, I really like how their movement has sparked discussion all over and in places it would not normally be.

@Osirisascending

Your comments rub me the wrong way. You sound extremely condescending through your words. First off, I don't believe the person youre criticizing shoved his degree title and university out there, like you have. Classy. (Not)
Truly, age is just a number. I know 20 year old veterans who are more mature than most and I believe GW Bush had a degree from Yale and many years of practical experience under his belt. Lord help me if I take his advice anytime soon. I point this out because it is this young age group that needs to be convinced to stay and when they hear comments surrounding "You're 20 years younger than me, thus I have much more experience than you. Your opinion means nothing," it's nails on a chalkboard to those who want the younger generation to stay (ie ((in your words)) their MOMMIES AND DADDIES). I don't know why we are now advocating for the youth to leave and come back later. So what, "everyone go to your world-class cities, find a nice job that suits you but bear in mind you're coming back to Buffalo and bringing jobs with you." The youth should be encouraged to come back asap. If a person happens to be in the position to come back after settling down, great, but that should not be the mainstream idea that the city should promote.

PS. I dont mean to rain on your "everyone needs to live outside western new york in order to be a better/more educated person" parade, but most of my family has not lived outside WNY and are very educated. Come off your throne.

>Occupiers should leave Niagara Square and instead channel their efforts toward production and political change.

Watch out. They will be voting.

When I first saw this post, I was pleased that someone had posted a rebuttal to the earlier post promoting the Occupy Buffalo movement. However, as I read this post I became increasingly dissatisfied by the way in which the writer goes about criticizing the Occupy movement. After reading both of these posts, I find myself somewhere in between the two.

First of all, as an engineering student, I also find it hard sometimes to sympathize with those Occupying the streets because their college degree has not prepared them for the job they would like. As an engineering student, I have worked hard in an often dull, tedious major because I want a degree that will set me up for a good job after college. I would love to spend my time studying Urban Planning or Architectural History, but instead I have opted to study something similar, yet more technical and intensive to better prepare me for a job after college. This will allow me to establish my career and better allow me to put my interest in these subjects to good use down the road. I believe that everyone needs a technical or applicable education (be it engineering, teaching, actuarial science, drafting, etc.) to give them a marketable skill along with a liberal arts education to make them a well rounded person. In the absence of such a system, I have decided to get a major in engineering while taking electives in subjects I find interesting.

Secondly, it is completely ludicrous to claim that the government does not create jobs. The business cycle of a free market has ups and downs, and it is the job of the federal government to make sure the expansions are not unsustainable and that the recessions are not too deep and long lasting. The problem in a recession is that demand is decreased and suppliers cut back to avoid losing money. While it is in the best interest of the economy as a whole for those suppliers to invest in growth without the necessary demand, it is, of course, not in the best interest of the suppliers and thus, they do not. This is when it is necessary for the federal government to step in and essentially invest in the economy by increasing government spending on projects that create demand for goods and services. A government, unlike a corporation, does what is best for society as a whole instead of what is best for quarterly earnings. When demand is created, suppliers will meet that demand (a fundamental principle of economics which is why supply-side doesn't work) and economic growth will follow. In the absence of incentive for capitalistic entities to invest in the economy, the government must be the catalyst that reverses the perpetuating downward spiral of a recession.

I do feel sympathy for those participating in Occupy movements across the country. They feel betrayed by a system heavily influenced by the rich to keep things the way they are. And currently, a certain faction of our political system is determined continue the trend of increasing income inequality which is beneficial to no one in the long term (not even the 0.1%). However, it should be noted that while the dedication which the Occupiers show for their cause is admirable, there are many more effective ways in which the protesters, and all Americans for that matter, can bring about change. Sleeping in a park and making signs can only do so much, and those who feel abandoned by their government and exploited by corporate America should find more innovative and entrepreneurial ways to influence the system. This may be much more difficult, but effecting change is never easy.

PS - To the commenter who told the writer of this blog post that he is a good writer "for an engineer," that is an ugly stereotype. I am offended. You are the worst kind of person.

I was kidding, I'm not actually offended.

Brett, very well said. Although I disagree with some of the content, it is refreshing to read a different opinion on this issue than what has been posted on this site thus far. Some of you guys, who don't agree with this site's content, ought to follow Brett's lead, and write a post offering conflicting viewpoints for oft discussed topics such as sprawl, demos, rehabs, etc.

That being said, I have to take issue with your point that people in engineering and "hard sciences" are better off because they had the foresight to peruse a degree that was more marketable.

True that may be one of many factors influencing someone's decision, but you also need an interest and passion in these fields in order to get your degree, find a job, and make a successful living. Someone who's talent and interests lie elsewhere would be wasting their time chasing these careers, even if they had the foresight to recognize their upside.

Brett,

Congratulations on earning a difficult and valuable degree, one that would allow you to work in your chosen field and with solid pay.

That job, however, and the profession of aerospace engineer from the very beginning, is provided (almost exclusively) by the largess of the American Government is support of the military-industrial complex. Where would your job be without military contracts?

I support the #Occupy movement, not because I need a better or more enjoyable job than I already have, but rather I see an end to the blood and treasure being wasted on foreign soil. I want to pull back the American Empire and focus those resources on bettering the American people. I want to see the end of no-bid contracts, drone wars and the military-industrial complex, full stop.

I am pleased to read that you using your skills outside of the war machine. That the machine exists, and is the dominant driver of our culture, is reason enough to #occupy.

Don't be too cynical about an aerospace engineering career. Jobs in this field can be with government contractors that are designing weapons, but it's so far from saying that is "almost exclusively" the case. You choose if you are willing to make weapons. Do you fly on airplanes that don't have anything to do with the military, do you use GPS to not get lost, or have satellite TV?

I have an aerospace engineering from UB, and I moved to Silicon Valley a little over a year ago to get my beginning entry level job. I love Buffalo, and miss my little house on Anderson Place dearly. I'm good at what I do, and I did things right with getting an internship in WNY in my field. I could have gotten a good job more easily in Buffalo with the connections I've made there, but I moved to California to learn bigger things. The consensus is to leave, learn, and come back, right? (Sorry Bernice, I had to experience..)

WNY as a whole the job market for engineering is not doing too bad. For an aerospace engineer there are at least a dozen companies in the area hiring people right out of school every year. US companies import people to fill aerospace jobs because there aren't enough skilled americans. As a beginner you do have to show potential by having had good grades in school. Engineers like to talk numbers, and I can tell you my experience in this field.. Those engineering internships in WNY when you don't quite have your degree pay about 22$/hr. Starting salary with an MS around Buffalo is about $70k and add $30k to that for California wages.. Cost of living is so much less in Buffalo though. These numbers have been for the best jobs, but never to design weapons.

Placing DeanerPPX's shameshame reference to his very own 86 yr. old mother (who is probably also someone's grandma or great-grandma) aside, and presuming most 86 yr. olds either do not want to be bothered with or can no longer participate in live-n-learn events anymore, just imagine if 22 yr. olds could back-n-forth with people who have "been there and (understand) that"...

But, as far as the young asking the old, don't ask your OWN gram or gramps because love and hope will triumph over reality for their OWN young.

Society NEVER wants to lose the exuberance of the young. They ARE the future. But no one stays 22 for longer than 12 months!

Along with what I already mentioned, there is another setup that is growing fast in WNY--temp agencies--which are being liberally used by some employers as an opportunity for some employers to keep that bottom line up in these nasty times.

you need to wake up and open your fox news eyes