Slippery Slope of St. Gerard
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Leave a commentDisgusting. This neighborhood is where the Catholic Church should be locating to, not abandoning in "GRACE"
Exactly. At a time when the church complains about declining congregations, fewer seminarians for priesthood and nunneries, they should be looking for ways to swell their ranks, not deplete them. I guess catholocism is only for the rich and middle class not for poor people or blacks. Unless, of course, they are in Africa and hate gays, then they are okay.
That's a pretty harsh statement, and not really justified. When I was growing up in a poor white family many years ago, we received help from Catholic Charities, even when we were not ourselves Catholic. The local Priest delivered boxes of groceries to us when we couldn't afford food, and offered my mother counseling after being left alone to raise her kids. A lot of attention has been paid to the negative news regarding the Catholic Church in recent years, and deservedly so, but they also do a lot of good. And I think that's worth mentioning as well.
And thats the problem, "the abandoned and crime ridden street corner". Want to reduce these threats then do something about the garbage that has been going on for decades and decades in these areas of the city, destroying the city and running people off. When you run people off and the market dries up and the church cant support itself what do you expect will potentially happen? Is the Transfiguration mess (also in a destroyed neighborhood) a better alternative for this church? Stop the city versus suburb crap scapegoat blame game and demand a fix to the problems that plague the city. Lets stop putting blinders on.
Seems like the church should be running to the crime ridden streets not away from them - WWJD?
WWSD - What would Steel do? Would Steel move his family to the streets around St. Gerards? Would you move your family to Buffalo because it is the right thing to do for the neighborhood, or would you move to someplace where there is more opportunity for a future? WWSD?
If you paid any attention, you'd know that the Catholic Church, through the Diocese of Buffalo, ministers to and provides many vital services to the poor, marginalized and dispossessed of the city...to Catholics and non-Catholics alike...in and around the neighborhood where St. Gerard's church is located.
Take your sarcastic bias and shove it. It weakens your argument.
If you're into the WWJD question "Seems like the church should be running to the crime ridden streets not away from them."
With Gerard Place operating in the former St Gerard school building and convent, they (inthe form of the service that Gerard Place is performing) are running to the streets, not away. What Gerard Place is doing is much more useful that if the church building was open and offering Catholic masses. It's doubtful that more than a very few neighborhood residents would attend a Catholic mass. Afterall, they didn't too much while the church was still open, did they? Isn't that why it closed?
im ready to do whatever it takes to save this building for future buffalonians
I might suggest starting by contacting your city council member, as well as David Franczyk, to let them know your feelings.
Contact information and email addresses can be found here:
http://www.ci.buffalo.ny.us/Home/Leadership/CommonCouncil
It might also help to leave a comment for the parish in Norcross:
http://movedbygrace.com/contact/questions-comments/
As well as the Diocese here in Buffalo:
http://www.buffalodiocese.org/Contactus.aspx
Agreed- this is not a good thing. More amazing- Preservation Buffalo Niagara ENDORSED this move! What is the PBN mission? Cocktail parties and award luncheons? Patting themselves on the back while the city burns, crumbles and gets demolished? Someone please enlighten me.
Here's a solution- let the diocese sell their office building on Main and Tupper. It's in a prime location for reuse. Move the church's offices to St. Gerard with the proceeds from the sale. Now that would be a Graceful Move.
"Americas older cities are virtual quarries from which we can extract the labors of previous generations", wow, talk about arrogance and lack of respect for our heritage.
I commented on the flaying of St Johns and said just the opposite on 8/12. My comment was "Our cities are not simply a pool of architectural wealth to be drawn upon by the highest bidder. They are a reflection of the generations of citizens that put their heart and soul into leaving us a legacy of beauty and quality"
It's too bad we can't ask those poor Catholic immigrants, whose hard work and sacrifice were responsible for the pennies and dollars that built this church as a place to worship God in the Catholic tradition. I wonder if they'd prefer to see it moved to a location where it would continue to be used for its intended purpose, as a house of worship, or if they'd like to see it stay in Buffalo and converted to loft apartments or offices, or end up in a landfill a few decades from now.
What other justifications did you expect to hear? This is pretty much what I expected. From their point of view, their reasons make sense.
I really attended the presentation hoping to come back with SOME glimmer of reassurance about the project. I was prepared to be the lone dissenter in the midst of the 'winning' team.
But the smugness and perseverance and opportunistic sentiment on display surprised even me. To outsiders, Moved By Grace emphasizes the 'preservation' of this building. But when speaking to the recipients and potential donors, the tone is decidedly more focused on the benefits to be gained in Atlanta, and that Buffalo almost deserves to have this building taken away.
And of course, if the alternative is to demolish the building, than Buffalo does Buffalo indeed does not "deserve" the building.
As have been discussed in many other articles, St Gerard's has far more than two options (move it or demolish it) available for its future.
It can follow the route of St Luke's or Corpus Christi and be transferred to the care of other orders within the Catholic church which seek to maintain and USE the building.
It can follow Holy Mother of the Rosary or Queen of Peace and be marketed and sold to other faiths and denominations.
It can follow St Mary of Sorrows or Babeville or scores of other churches across the country and find new use for non-secular purposes.
Or it can take a path not yet explored and actually be mothballed until another alternative is found.
Unfortunately, the list of orders, faiths and denominations is limited and cannot be counted on to save all these buildings. The non-liturgical options are self-limited by the Diocese who, in the case of St Barbara's, would rather see a building demolished than sold to commercial interests. And mothballing seems to be a foreign concept to a Diocese that could not even maintain their own cathedral, let alone invest in modest repairs that could extend the life of a building by 10-20 years.
The blame for all this probably rests more heavily on the Diocese of Buffalo than the people of Georgia. But as we've seen with St Adalbert's and the Central Terminal, a building's location in a declining neighborhood can be overcome if the desire to preserve it is great enough. We just need to get over the concept that neglect and demolition are inevitable.
"the list of orders, faiths and denominations is limited and cannot be counted on to save all these buildings"
Ok, so if as you say the vacant buildings outnumber the local groups here willing/able to attempt serious reuse - what's so bad about that imbalance being reduced by one?
dean>"We just need to get over the concept that neglect and demolition are inevitable"
Ok, you're free to tell others what concepts they need to get over - and likewise the two dioceses involved might say you "just need to get over the concept" of making geography more important than their intended purpose of the building.
If they strongly prefer that it house an RC congregation rather than any alternative, shouldn't that be their choice to make? Perhaps they have a wider definition of community than a physical neighborhood, city, or state. They might feel the move's result wouldn't be removing the building from their spiritual community.
I'm not RC and couldn't care less about all that. But they have a right to care about that, and they should have a right to act on what they care about without any political interference trying to forcibly stop them.
It does not suprise me that Atlanta would come to Buffalo for a church. Atlanta has what I would call a huge immigration from native Buffalonians who have settled particularly in the city and northern suburbs.
And its true that the spirituality that was built into pre-WWII churches for Latin Masses, chorals of the greatest classical musicians, gregorian chants, incense, candles, monks and nunns cannot compare to post WWII Vatican II cafeterias and guitar masses that have more in common with campfire music & roasted marshmellows.
Do we really want to see this demolished from neglect like so many of our other churches...just because we dont want someone else to have it?
Personally I want it to stay in Buffalo...but its Buffalo's problem that it refuses to create the job growth that would keep it here. Buffalo will not kill the teachers unions and implement school choice/school vouchers so parents will return to the city from the suburbs...nor will ECC do even the simplest thing like build their medical school by the downtown medical campus...the simplest things...Buffalo simply will not make...and thats why people left for 80 years.
A _Georgia_ priest trying to portray our council president as a crazy redneck. And wanting to provide a nice, Flexible Lawn-like experience for the kids at Gerard Place. Gee -- thanks, Father Due! -- or Dye (which is it?).
Like Twin Peaks, this saga gets more surreal with every new episode.
Can someone remind me of the purchase price? I'm sure the money-hungry Diocese negotiated a good deal. However, there aren't many comparables, correct?
The budget for this project is $16 million, which includes the deconstruction, transport, and reconstruction of the building, plus an undisclosed fee to be paid to the Diocese of Buffalo.
With the exception of that undisclosed fee, the only profit in this sale will be made by the laborers who are hired to do the work. The Diocese isn't so much selling the building as they are allowing somebody to simply take it away as long as we don't have to contribute toward the cost of moving it.
For a building valued at $40-60 million, I am equally disappointed that the purchase price was not raised by at least a million or two (or twenty) so that the proceeds could be used toward the care of other buildings still in our care.
In your scenario there is at least a tangible value to Buffalo and its history.
Perhaps not what you think. My understanding is they're selling it for roughly their asking price: in the 100-200K range. Most of the cost to Georgia is for dismantlement, transport, reassembly. And some grass seed for that corner kids' lawn they leave behind as their thanks to the community.
The Diocese, in a perverse way, seems to be more enamored of the national publicity than the actual dollars they will get. In reality, one of their main drivers in this and other church closings is not that the parishes aren't viable -- and serving the community -- but that newer/suburban church buildings cost less to operate and maintain per parishioner.
It's that cold. For real.
You are accurate, indeed. Power, Money and Greed - the new Holy Trinity of the Church. (or has it alays been that way??) It would be interesting to eventually see where proceeds from the purchase price are allocated.
Yes! Like the priest says, let's trade in our grandest, most historic buildings to get large rectangular plots of empty land (for our Buffalo children to run around in). C'mon, folks, why didn't we think of that??
I hear they also want to buy the old Ralph Wilson Stadium turf that was removed this summer for landscaping...
Has anyone ever explored suing the churches on the grounds that our taxpayer dollars built, and kept up, these churches? We invested in them, and now the church is opportunistically disinvesting in the community...at a time when they should be reinvesting.
Taxpayer dollars huh? Would you like to expand on that?
Considering that the building would continue to be used as a church by other taxpayers, I don't really see the basis for a lawsuit.
Re "Has anyone ever explored suing the churches on the grounds that our taxpayer dollars built, and kept up, these churches"
What??? Taxpayer dollars built and maintained these churches? This is news to me, and probably to 99.999% of the rest of the population. The government does not build and maintain churches.
If you meant that parishioner dollars built and maintained the churches, yes they did. But unfortunately the congregation that built and maintained this church dwindled to the the point where it could no longer maintain it. It's sad, but it's also reality.
I was referring more to tax abatements, which are only possible because of an underlying tax base (which we pay).
What if churches had to justify or prove the legitimacy of their tax exempt status? What if there were accountability standards to achieve in order to maintain what amounts to a tax abatement on the real estate churches own and operate?
Non-profit hospital systems are required to pass such tests to maintain their non-profit, tax exempt status.
For-profit businesses that receive tax abatements from taxing authorities, whether city, county, state or federal, do so because of the public benefit that they generate in the form of jobs, economic development, tourism, etc.
Why not churches?
What if churches had to account for their actions in the community?
So, no, our tax dollars are not "used" directly...but, indirectly we are very used by these churches.
You're so full of shit! Sometimes I hope that you are just posting things on here to be ridiculous.
Jesus made everything in his likeness, the taxpayers work for Jesus, If anything the Church has the right to sue us.
That would make an interesting episode of Law and Order.
I have heard that at least one of the stained glass windows in St. Gerard's is blown out. These windows are masterpieces. The skill and craftsmanship required to repair or replace them does not exist today. Another winter will take it's toll. The only alternative to shipping the church to Georgia is to call Hollywood Hank.
The skill to create and maintain stained glass windows does indeed exist today!
sheesh, where do people get this idea that no one understands traditional crafts anymore? here in the home of roycroft, buff state, and how many other fine art programs? and just down the road from the nationally recognized school of american craftsmen in rochester?
buffalo has all kinds of skilled craftspeople who can restore stained glass windows or just about anything else in your old house. you just have to be willing to pay them skilled craftsperson wages instead of exploited chinese factory worker wages.
The Otto Andrle windows in St. Gerard's are unique. While there are craftsmen capable of doing basic repairs to stained glass windows, there probably is no artist in the country with the comparable ability for painting human figures and faces on glass. They are not replaceable. When they're gone, they're gone.
No, not that can match the quality and artistry of the St. Gerard windows. And if it did, who would pay for it?
I think we all agree they are not expendable.
I fail to see why people are angry with the priest in Georgia or the Diocese here. From the point of view of the church as a whole what matters is the congregation.
Where are Buffalonians every Sunday? Where are Buffalonians everyday for that matter? Heck where are Buffalonians for the christian holidays?
Where are Buffalonians in keeping our churches viable?
I know that even when I lived in the suburbs, I purposely drove into the city and attended an urban church. They received my donations and tithes and volunteer work.
Now if Buffalonians want Guitar masses and cafeterias to worship in rather than some of the greatest churches in our country built to european craftsmanship...then look in the mirror...that is where the anger belongs.
Its the same anger that allowed historic building after historic building to be demolished in our city...the blame lies not in the stars but in ourselves.
You have to admit that the rendering showing the church located in a clearing in the forest along a wooded lane is compelling though.
So, is what some of you are saying that even though it's perfectly legal for this building's owner to demolish it (since it isn't a city landmark, and it isn't in a preservation district), that somehow our government - either courts or the Common Council - could legally block it from being moved?
The government would be saying -
"You have a legal right to tear down this building you own, but don't you dare deconstruct it and reassemble it in any other city."
Yay for logic!
'... even though it's perfectly legal for this building's owner to demolish it....'
Who wants it demolished? I'm sure that the same folks who don't want it moved don't want it destroyed, either.
Paul, my comment doesn't say what anybody wants to happen to a building somebody else owns. People are free to want anything.
It's clear I was asking if people seriously think the courts or Common Council should legally block its owner from having it moved even though it's perfectly legal for the owner to demolish it.
Dean(article)>"This gives Buffalonians some time to make their feelings known to their city council"
Deaner(comment)>"I might suggest starting by contacting your city council member, as well as David Franczyk, to let them know your feelings."
Travelrrr>"Has anyone ever explored suing the churches ...?"
Which should matter regarding government actions - what the law is, or what feelings some people might express to the Common Council or to a judge?
I doubt that there is any legal action the community could take to prevent the building from being moved to Atlanta. That's too bad.
We agree about your 1st sentence, so the suggestions that people should try to stop this by contacting politicians or trying a lawsuit are inappropriate.
About your other point that it's "too bad" the govt can't legally stop the RC Church from moving a non-landmarked building they own from one location to another - we can agree to disagree.
I'll be surprised if enough money is raised for a move. Probably the building will stand empty where it is for the rest of its many years. But if the Georgians - or anyone else - do raise the money, it shouldn't be the business of politicians or judges to try stopping any lawful decisions made by the owners.
There's plenty of serious issues anyhow that our Common Council should be focusing on within its actual responsibilities, but isn't.
Let's see now -- just a few months ago, St. Barbara's was demolished. Would it have been better to see it dismantled and recreated in Atlanta? Certainly. At least it could have survived, and that's better than total destruction.
If the people of Buffalo don't wish to preserve their architectural history or their religious structures, then they shouldn't complain when others are willing to do so. I would have to agree that the people of Atlanta are indeed more deserving of this church that we are, IF we are just going to abandon the church and close it up, like so many times we have done in the past.
Dont' get me wrong -- I'm all in favor of historic preservation. That's why I would prefer to see it moved than slowly crumble and then demolished. If the locals want to preserve it, then preserve it! But if you don't want to, then let others use it.
But don't bitch and bellyache about this church unless you are willing to do what it takes to keep it functioning.
I agree with Steel 100% - he ALWAYS has it correct on the issues whenever he comments.
The comments of the so-called "architect" for that parasite parish should have his license suspended for his insensitive comments and total ignorance.
This is no less than similar to the stealing of the Elgin Marbles from the Greeks when they were also down on their luck and unable to defend their treasures from theives.
Buffalo WILL rebound and rebound handsomely - and we will be sorry this was ever allowed to happen.
G-damned hillbilly confederates stealing from the north again.
This has got to be stopped.
What makes them "Hillbillies"? And I believe it was Northern Carpet baggers that stole from the South. Idiot
What makes these yahoos hillbillies is their ingnorance.
The slavery defending confederate assholes that are still fighting the Civil War they thankfully lost - and you're defending them? The core of the TeaBaggers/Republicans today.
Seems you're the asshole here, honey.
They're stealing OUR heritage, for one, as proven by this church episode.
Don't blame the people of Georgia. Blame the Catholic Church and its archaic policies and procedures, cover-ups, bejeweled priests, etc. which serve to drive people away not embrace them. "Journey of Faith & Grace" Indeed! Some journey. Look at Rome, the Pope, rich vestments, jewels, art works, real estate, the glass-domed "Pope-Mobile" (really?). Catholicism in America has proven itself to be a disposable religion with (conveniently) superficial and disposable mores when the need arises. I'm still not over, and likely never will be, the destruction of St. Josephs New Cathedral on Delaware Avenue. When that cathedral was built the leaders of the Catholic Church in Buffalo were warned that the marble being used was sub-standard and would never last in a northern climate. Warnings went unheeded (money was at the root of that decision for sure) and only a few generations later a beautiful flying-buttressed structure that had witnessed many a sacramental rite met the wreckers ball. That church could have been saved but it would have cost money. Rome should have helped and Rome will certainly not help St. Gerard’s. St. Josephs New Cathedral and St. Gerard’s are proper symbols of the decay and displacement of Catholicism in America. Too bad St. Gerard’s is in the wrong neighborhood or the Mormons might be interested. Do you think this would happen in Boston? This move should be stopped.
Look at the venom against the Catholic Church lambasting it with pedophile priests and wealthy vestments. Do you also stand on your soapbox for the hive of pedophiles that infest hollywood. No! Where is the equal coverage of pedophile rabbis and protestant reverends? Not a word.
Catholic nuns, monks, friars, priests, etc take vows of poverty...do the protestants or the rabbis do that!
Catholics more than any other religion step forward in hospitals, hospices, nursing homes, orphanages, shelters, food kitchens, etc.
There has been a secular war against the christian religion and the protestant/catholic churches fell hook line and sinker when they abandoned their old cathedrals for cafeteria, their old classical music for guitars etc, as well as the rich and middle class abandoning their cities for suburbs...where socialist, communists and unions have instilled an anti-christian atheistic politically correct dogma. Insanity has reigned...and people left...but the catholic church is not the center of all that is wrong. Others deserve that bullseye!
Another point often forgotten in this debate: There is no shortage of actual people in the area. Sure, it's less than what it used to be, but there are still people there. Why aren't they attending this church for services?
Seems to me that the Catholic church doesn't seem to understand that THEY lost the parishioners. Why didn't they reach out to the changing community? The church is a failed business model all the while other denominations are thriving. (And don't try to argue that religion isn't a business).
The church has decided that instead of being a universal church open to everyone, they would prefer to be a selective church that caters only to a small group of social conservatives. As a former Catholic myself, I am angry at the church for allowing this to happen, and worse, for allowing themselves to be redefined as a small exclusive place for only those who agree with their political theology.
"Why didn't they reach out to the changing community?" Because, the community is poor and black-and not who will feed the Church coffers (and help pay for the sex abuse cases). That is why.
Poor and black, and most likely not Catholic
The Church caters to the rich and business crowd. When they are not ripping us off or committing murderer, they are committing sexual-related crimes.
Catholicism=capitalism; it's time abolish both.
>The Church caters to the rich and business crowd. When they are not ripping us off or committing murderer, they are committing sexual-related crimes.
So where are you going with that line of thinking? Obviously you don't think much of the catholic church. But what does have anything to do with this thread here then? What do you think about this church here?
Catholicism=capitalism; it's time abolish both.
>I always like statements like this. They always seem to leave off halfway through. So you don't think much of the catholic church. So if you don't like them then you don't like them. Nobody's forcing you to go to a church or even believe in a deity. What do you care if other people choose to do so?
And as often as I see Capitalism = bad expressed a sentiment, I never seem to see what people propose take its place.
I am so angry about this. First the sheer gall at moving a building that was built by the congregation 1200 miles away. Now the arrogance of the people doing it. I'm already ticked because of the St. Barbara's demolition, this is beyond over-the-top.
I'm so mad I'm seeing green: Hulk green.
Agreed. What we really need is a multi-point plan for dealing with buildings in the city that are abandoned and in danger of destruction. WE need funds to at least mothball them until a better use comes out of them; we need ideas on reuse; we need people who will file lawsuits when needed; we need volunteers to provide security and stablization.
I'm tired of these issues constantly popping up too late for us to do anything about it. We have lost so many structures in the past; now is the time to take inventory of what we believe should be preserved and then come up with plans to do so.
At the very least, we will be in a better bargaining position when we bargain from strength instead of weakness.
Yup its pretty offensive when wealthy people who crave authenticity think that they can just buy it from poorer and more interesting people/cities. Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Mr. Petermen buys all of Kramer's stories.
Its ironic that the same people who go on and on about how great old things are seem to care very little about historical context.
Rather like the people, 100 years ago, who craved authenticity so much that they hired an architect to copy an old Italian church & had it built in Buffalo? How offensive.
Really, people - A congregation in Georgia loves this building so much that they want to have it for their own, and you condemn them, calling them rapists and thieves? THAT is the utterly shameful part of this story.
Don't you have anything to say about those 100 or so years that have gone by? What about the architect? What about the people who built the church? So many people preach about "place", "history" and "identity" but they still see these things as mere commodities. Insert a historic lamppost here, rename a few neighborhoods there... The congregation from Georgia should hire an great architect and built a great building for themselves instead of hoping to capitalize on Buffalo's misfortune. This congregation should think very hard about what kind of legacy they want for their church. Right now this sad story is so much more about exploiting Buffalo than it is about preserving buildings.
The Georgians want to purchase only what is for sale - they aren't "stealing" or hurting anyone. Neither Buffalo nor its people will be "exploited" if this building gets moved. Not a sad story at all - a church's congregation has died-off or moved elsewhere, yet its shelter will be saved and cherished. Dozens of demolished Buffalo churches (and thousands of its most interesting buildings) should have been so lucky, instead of becoming landfill.
Obviously it would be best for Buffalo if this church stay in Buffalo. However, the owner is doing the more responsible thing here. It’s no different than owning a pet you can no longer care for and giving (or selling) him to someone who can give it the proper care it deserves. It will be an architectural loss for Buffalo indeed.
However, the real messed up part is the gluttony of churches. The Georgian congregation is willing to spend an excess of $16 million on a building in which to simply gather and pray! They claim it will “require less maintenance and significantly less heating/cooling costs than steel and glass” is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You mean to tell me that a modern building will cost more than $16 million to build and operate? I would wager that for that amount of money you could build a brand new facility and cover operating costs for at least the next 10-20 years. If it is so cheap to operate an older structure then why did this church have to close its doors in the first place?
The real shame is the separation of the churches amongst the wealthy and poor parts of the country and national diocese. If they were as generous and charitable as they claim then wouldn’t it be better to allocate this money to build themselves a modest structure and spread the rest of the funds to the parishes that need it most to maintain existing buildings like St. Gerard’s so people in disadvantaged areas, like the east side of Buffalo, still have a local church in which to worship? Or better yet, use the money to simply help those who need it most instead of a lavish building that make for great photo ops for weddings and first communions.
So in short, let the person who can take care of this building best, take care of it. But what a real shame to waste money on moving a building when you can help the people who are supposed to be part the church’s mission to help first.
'Even London Bridge has fallen down, and moved to Arizona' (Gary P Nunn via Jerry Jeff Walker, and yes, it's true). If it's too late, it's too late, and better saved than demolished. Better in place if you can, but better in a museum if you can't ...
Again. St. Gerard church is not going anywhere. In time, all of the structures around it will be gone and it will be one of Buffalo NY's best showcases depicting "the way we (once) were" religiously, immigrantely, hardworkingly, structurally sound architecturely, you name it. And as for naming, Buffalo, NY will also most likely be renamed by then. (immigrantely is my own think-up-a-new-word word.)
"There are discussions with CSX Rail to cover the cost of transport, and Home Depot to contribute toward reconstruction costs. Currently, $3 of the $16 million has been raised. It is expected that once the first corporate sponsor is secured, additional donations will become even easier to obtain."
So, corporate will invest money to move the structure out of state but not restore/preserve/repurpose @ it's current location?
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These good church people make me absolutely sick. This is not "preservation by relocation"-this is rape and pillaging. Let's call it for what it is.
Buffalo is on the rebound, but we have some very struggling areas, where architecture can still be "picked off". This is, unfortunately, an example.
We don't need the help of this fine parish, thank you very much. Build your own damn church-you've already pillaged, and broken, an important statue in the process. Honestly, I would rather see the Church implode than see it carted off to these vermons and, even worse, "set a precendent" for the future.
The whole situation is disgusting-the fact that we cannot secure/stabilize the building for future use (how about a charter school, community center...which will go much further than a "plot of grass"), to the manipulations of this Parish to the self dealing of the "expert" architects.
Let's make some noise, obstructionists.
I have to ask what the atheists and agnostics are doing to help the situation?
the atheists and agnostics are doing about as much as a fish does when pondering how to ride a bicycle.
if we're all made in Gods' image then why aren't we all invisible?
This atheist says "good riddance", honestly. This is an honest transaction and if you religious peeps can't figure out how to snooker enough people back into the pews to pay to keep it here, well then, tough noogies.
I'm happy the old stone is going to be reused, and might as well put it down south where they're so much more in thrall of invisible guys in the sky.
I agree, Jesse.
you know you're down south when the ratio of churches to gas stations is 1 to 1...
I also agree Jesse.