City June 16, 2011 11:52 AM

Theological Thursdays: Senator Grisanti's Dilemma

Theological Thursdays: Senator Grisanti’s Dilemma
Tomorrow, when the State Senate votes on the Marriage Equality Bill, Buffalo's Mark Grisanti could make the difference between the bill, which would allow for same-sex marriage in New York State, passing or failing.

Grisanti, who had previously stated that he would vote against such a bill, has announced that he is now undecided.  He has stated that he believes in the issue from a civil rights, standpoint, but has difficulty reconciling that with his Catholic beliefs.

From the Buffalo News: "If I take the Catholic out of me, which is hard to do, then absolutely they should have these rights," Grisanti said.

"It has nothing to do with politics. It has to do with my own personal belief."

What, however, is the basis of Grisanti's "should?"

According to the Declaration of Independence, people have "certain unalienable rights" that are "endowed by their creator."

So if gays have the right to marry, as Grisanti believes, shouldn't it follow that the right comes from God?

Many Believers have advocated again and again, that belief is necessary for morality--that people need God to do the right thing.  Grisanti, is becoming a living counter-point to that argument.  He seems to be saying that he knows what the right thing is, but his religion prohibits from doing so.

Senator Grisanti, if you believe that God would prevent you from doing something that is right, something has to change.  Either your understanding of the thing isn't right, or your understanding of God isn't right.

While many non-believers might seize the opportunity of a statement like Grisanti's to call for the end of all religion, it seems more productive, in a world filled with believers, to use the opportunity to seek clear theological thinking.

It is conflicts like these that produce calls on politicians to lay aside their faith, so that they can best represent a diverse people.  Chris Smith at WNYmedia.net lays out the argument beautifully.  But this same impulse creates conflicted people, people who say and do one thing, but believe something different.  While this practice is common, it hasn't exactly been good for the political landscape.

Maybe, instead of "laying aside" his faith to do the right thing, Grisanti should look deeper into it.  I believe that God can handle our questions, and a great first question is, "why am I experiencing this dilemma?"  My hunch is that his instincts to vote for the bill are every bit as faith-based as his instincts to vote against them.  Scriptures (from many traditions) are pretty clear that we should treat others the way we would like to be treated.  Or, perhaps Grisanti will be able to develop a clear rationale for why a vote for this bill is NOT the right thing to do.

But stating that your religion keeps you from doing the right thing doesn't help anybody.

For an older "Theological Thursday" on Marriage, click here.

Photo from www.nysenate.gov/senator/mark-grisanti

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"If I take the Catholic out of me, which is hard to do, then absolutely they should have these rights"

You don't need to take the Catholic out of you, you need to take the Constitution and realize you're an elected official in America, not the Vatican. Honestly, this is a high school poli sci issue - it's really that hard for Grisanti to compute?

Score: 19 ( 27 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Agreed. He was elected to represent all of his constituents, not just Catholics.

replied to jag
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Yes, but odds are most of his constituents are Catholic.

replied to LI2Northpark
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doesn't matter if almost all are catholic. the constitution protects minority rights. it's not mob rule.

replied to Urban Cowboy
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Most Catholics I know including my family only practice thier beliefs when it is convienient.

replied to LI2Northpark
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Are you insinuating that they are only considered "Catholic" when they attend church services? Therefore their religion only applies about 1 hour per week, less if they do not attend regularly. Is that what you are saying?

replied to The Boss
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no, I am saying that many attend church, believe same sex marriage is wrong, do not eat meat on Friday but are divorced, have children out of wedlock, among many other bible no-nos

replied to bobbycat
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Yeah, the Catholic should not be in Grisanti at all as far as his service in the Legislature in concerned.

I don't know if State Senators have the option of abstaining from a vote. Perhaps that is an option if he feels a personal moral conflict that prevents him from voting objectively.

Score: -2 ( 12 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I have a feeling he is going to do it if needed, but if someone else votes for it he won't.

I'm hopeful that NYS will finally pass this not only for the civil right implications (which are far and away the most important)but for the economics of it.

Think about the investment that will flow into a state where people can put down roots and start a family.

Score: -1 ( 9 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I hate the quote "If I take the Catholic out of me, which is hard to do, then absolutely they should have these rights". I am catholic, and i know there are certain rules I am supposed to uphold, but there are foundations to the religion I believe in more than the rules set by a single person or individuals. I have no problem with the state allow gay marriage. If the church won't approve a catholic ceremony, that’s their business and it shouldn’t interfere with the law or freedom of individuals.

I know when I tell people I am pro-life, they immediately associate it with my Catholicism. Maybe I get some of my morals from my religion, but the pope doesn’t dictate my beliefs. I am pro-life, but don’t see an issue with contraception, premarital sex, or gay marriage so that’s a bit of a dilemma for the religion argument. I eat meat on Fridays in lent sometimes too. I am still, in my opinion, a faithful catholic. I believe in the message at its purest, which is to love your neighbor and affirm your faith (I know I am oversimplifying there). No religion is perfect, but I don’t know why people have to associate “Catholic” with all these rules. It’s like saying you have to support a policy because you are republican or democrat.

The guy should do what he KNOWS is right in his mind. We all should.

Score: 12 ( 16 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

senator grisanti, when you were elected, you swore on the bible to uphold the constitution of the state of new york. you did not swear on the consitution to uphold the bible. if you have deep convictions that you must uphold the bible, then it is time for you to leave the senate and enter the seminary.

keep in mind, senator grisanti, that you got a divorce, which is also contrary to catholic teaching, but a whole lot of activists before you made sure that the catholic church was not permitted to ban divorce in new york state.

so it is fair game to ask why you can disregard catholic doctrine but you want to impose it on others.

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Amen, Grad.

replied to grad94
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Very well said.

Here in the 24th century, we abolished religion a long time ago. With its abolition came its inability to meddle in the private affairs of rational thinkers.

Now if we could just get the Klingons and Romulans to stop fighting each other...

replied to grad94
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It appears that those claiming to be Catholic are very poorly informed on what the Catholic Church teaches.
Catholics do not opposed to homosexual unions because the Pope told them so. The Church is an expression of the truth of God. Its teaching are from God. (Not eating meat on fridays is not one of these, this is a regulation from the church and is in a whole different category. It may be changed at any time, because it is not God given)

The Chuch also states that one does not have to be Catholic to understand that homosexual unions are not a marriage. One can argue from the natural law, without using one Church teaching etc.

The Churchin the Catechism DOES NOT oppose Homosexuals and states that homosexuals are Gods children and are to be treated as such; however, homosexual acts are not from God.

So the Natural Law (ex. nature) shows us that the union between man and women is inherent in their anatomy, complimentarity (boys and girls act different), but compliment each other, and cross culturally families with male and female raising children is the norm not the exception (it is written on peoples hearts.

What the homosexual community is trying to do, as far as I can see is to change nature and truth through legislation. You can't change truth, butif they are talking about equal government benefits etc. that is a different story. This is the realm of legislation, but this is not what is at play.
Any person Gay, straight, Catholic, athiest, should be able to see that you can't change nature with a law. To do so is foolhardy and detrimental.

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looks like there's room in Nature (ex. Natural Law) for Gay Penguins and Lesbian Lizards among other things.
from Wiki;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

they don't seem to have a problem with it. why should humans?

replied to bison
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Do those lizards and cows want to get married and stay monogamous?

replied to buffloonitick
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not if they subscribe to Bisons Theory of Natural Law.

replied to Mr. Underhill
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i guess mother nature was too busy to study your particular scripture, since same sex love and attraction are known in every culture on the globe.

replied to bison
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Interesting dilemma.

As a Catholic, I could care less about gay marriage legality. I understand that it's not allowed in the Church and that is where I'm at. Whether someone who is gay goes to town court and gets a document saying their married really doesn't effect me or my beliefs so why should it be illegal.

With that said, as a voter(I didn't vote in the grisanti election), would you be alright with an elected official changing their campaign promise? Whether Grisanti believes in gay marriage now is one thing, but if he ran to vote against gay marriage, I question him changing his position. I guess I just have a problem with elected officials going back on campaign promises, regardless of the issue.

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This is a difficult ethical decision. I respect Mr. Grisanti's openness and honesty on his position.

replied to Urban Cowboy
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The Bill of Rights calls for church and state to be separate, so the opinions of the Catholic church should have no bearing on this decision.

It's also not Grisanti's personal decision. He lost the ability for independent thought and action when he was elected and vowed to serve the people. He votes according to his constituents, not according to his beliefs and feelings.

Or thats how it should work at least. I for one fully support the legal right for Gay people to marry, and would love to see NY take a step towards forward thinking acceptance rather than a step backwards towards bigotry and persecution.

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"He votes according to his constituents, not according to his beliefs and feelings." I have to disagree. Do you agree that all of his constiuents do not unanimously agree on this issue? A public official must vote based on his/her own convictions and it is up to us as voters to choose representatives based on our understanding of those convictions. Our constitution emphasizes the separation of church and state. Since he is voting on marriage equality in the state, not the church, I feel he should vote in favor of this bill. Even with the passing of this bill, the Cathonlic Church can still refuse to perform same sex marriage if they so choose. unfortunately this issue, like abortion, will always be polarizing.

replied to RumRunner
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One nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all.....

Doesn't sound to separate does it?

replied to RumRunner
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'Under God' was inserted into our pledge in 1954 by an act of Congress, so I doubt the founding fathers had much to do with that legislation.
The original pledge read, 'one nation, with liberty and justice for all.'

replied to Urban Cowboy
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not to mention that the founders never thought it necessary to establish a pledge of allegiance or any other loyalty oaths. the pledge was written in 1892 and not adopted by congress until 1942.

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Where did I say the founding fathers inserted that? Regardless, elected officials inserted it. Were they not doing what their constituents wanted?

And does even the most progressive president that has ever taken office say, "God Bless America," at the end of all of his speeches?

Score: -5 ( 9 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Arguments for separation of Chuch and state are bogus on this issue. Homosexual "marriage" should be opposed, by all Catholics because if not they are complete hypocrites. One should not be a religion as long is it is convenient. Also, Homosexual unions are not marriage based on the natural law and common sense, not simply because a religion opposes it. Marriage is for the union of man and women to have children, homosexuals can't do this (we are talking Natural law so please no sperm donor surrogate comments), man and women are need for child raising women can't work while nursing so they have men and men can't nurse. It is a good pair bond. Men and women are both increadibly important in a childs life to instill feminine and masculine traits in their children. If this was not needed, nature would have been better having just men or just women. It could reproduce much faster this way.

As far as government goes it has the right to determine benefits, priviledges etc.

It does not have the right to legislate truth by defining something as marriage that is not.

Score: -20 ( 34 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Without causing a big thing, homosexuality occurs in nature among animals and has been documented.

Where does it say marriage has to be for the purpose of bearing children? You said it’s for a man and woman to have children, but what about married people who never have kids either for financial or personal reasons? The church talks about procreation, mainly because it was a way to grow the church.

replied to bison
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Hey, just because it happens in nature doesn't make it natural! Wait a sec....

replied to Bflo Guy
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if marriage is for procreation and children, how come there are no fertility tests or requirements? why not ban women who are past menopause or men who are sterile from being able to marry? since, after all, they can't procreate and everything.

replied to bison
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I hope that Senator Grisanti will cast his vote for equal rights for all, and support gay marriage.

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This is an easy question - religion is irrelevant here - either you believe government should grant equal rights to all or you don't - If you don't then you should not be in government. If Mr. Grisanti cannot vote for equal rights due to his religious belief then his choice should be to resign rather than voting to maintain archaic laws which grant rights to a chosen group and not another.

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What about his constituents? If he said that he would vote for it and then changed his mind mid-term, would you be ok with that?

replied to STEEL
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Of course its OK for a politician to change his mind. Its also OK that politicians make unpopular decisions from time to time.

replied to Urban Cowboy
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I am only ok with it if he votes for equla rights. Anything less is an abomination.

replied to Urban Cowboy
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Steel: Vote him out of office if you disagree with him. That is how democracy works, although that might require you to move back here.

replied to STEEL
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What does where I live have to do with equal rights?

replied to Mr. Postman
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Well, it is a state-based issue and therefore it will be decided BY New Yorker voters; you are not a registered voter so while you are perfectly inclined to your opinion, ultimately it's not worth a damn.

replied to STEEL
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Equal human rights are a concern of all people. NYS is a part if the United States. As a citizen of the United States It certainly is a concern of mine if a state is deciding to give rights to only certain 'approved' people. Especially if it is deciding to do that based on religious beliefs.

replied to Mr. Postman
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Then vote your representative out of New York if he/she doesn't fall in line with your logic. Oh snap, you can't vote here in NY State because YOU DON'T LIVE HERE.

replied to STEEL
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Steel>"If Mr. Grisanti cannot vote for equal rights due to his religious belief then his choice should be to resign rather than voting to maintain archaic laws which grant rights to a chosen group and not another."

Ok, and does that mean you want for all elected officials who oppose same sex marriage to resign? Or just Grisanti?

Before you answer, remind yourself Barack Obama has openly opposed same sex marriage during the primaries, general election, and to this day. I'll predict you'll say your call for Grisanti to resign still stands and doesn't apply to Obama because Obama's opposition to SSM has better reasons or something like that, or you'll say the U.S. president's viewpoint on this matters less to you than a NY state legislator's.

On a related note, when Obama visited Buffalo, can anybody tell us why why weren't there big public protests here against his anti-SSM stance? Perhaps the same reason there weren't protests against him supporting continuing the Patriot Act even though that was a big topic on protest signs when GWB visited here while president.

replied to STEEL
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im not completely comfy with this being a state / govt issue. why can't the church determine IF they want to marry a particular person or not. they do that now between man and woman. isn't it called pre cana?? if a church or religion doesn't see fit in marrying someone, then they don't have to.

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No one is saying a church or religion can't make their own decisions about their own ceremonies. The marriage equality bill in question is only about the civil marriages, with explicit clarification that states that no religious organization is compelled to marry anyone.

Religious marriage ceremonies are completely separate from the secular legal status of marriage.

replied to Scottwf
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"I have been trained my whole life to represent people regardless of race, gender, creed, age or where they live. I believe we have been lacking that type of representation recently" Taken of off Mark Grisanti's "vote for me" face book page.

I notice that Gays are not listed but I hope they were included. Unfortunately I also believe they are crunching numbers right now to see which decision would get the most votes come election time. Sad to say but that is where our government now puts the most emphasis.

As far as the Catholic thing
goes...this is just another conflict that has been caused by religion. Remember the book of God was recounted by man, written by man and the books included picked and chosen by man.

Do the right thing and vote for equal rights for all!

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To think that a jewish senator may not vote with his religious convictions and background in mind is basically being naive. The same is true for catholics and atheists alike. We vote based on our beliefs both in office and as private citizens.

I think we should vote for equal rights for everyone not just gays and lesbians. Let adults marry multiple partners if they want, let them have sexual relations outside of the marriage if they choose. Let them twitter pictures of the penis to strangers if they believe that is within their moral right to do so. Let's treat everyone with the same level of respect and openness no matter what their choices, beliefs, or genetics may make them predisposed to do.

Also, once this is passed we should have no more gay pride parades because they should be treated on par with everyone else. If you don't want to be treated differentl than don't expect yourself to be seen differently when it is convenient for you.

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If we had equal rights there would never have been a need or a movement to crate a gay rights parade. I am willing to bet that every gay person would agree with that. But since people still go around discriminating against gays and killing them and beating them up and preventing them from getting married they do need to speak up for themselves. And yes the government really does have no business telling people how many partners they can have as long as they are each freely consenting adults. Lets get government out of the most personal aspects of people's lives. I would think that any true conservative would be on board with that.

replied to Mr. Underhill
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@STEEL: "Lets get government out of the most personal aspects of people's lives. I would think that any true conservative would be on board with that."

I think we need to get the liberals on board with that to because they seem to want to tell everyone what they should be doing with their lives.

replied to STEEL
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Lets talk about Conservatives - I am assuming that you are a conservative and that as a conservative you believe that the government should have no right to tell you who you can and cannot marry. Is that correct? If not why do you believe that some government crony should have that power over your life?

replied to Mr. Underhill
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so i assume you are in favor of canceling the st. patrick's day parade, juneteenth, labor day, and the italian festival? since all of the groups organizing these events have experienced discrimination to one degree or another and some of them used the legislative process to correct that discrimination?

replied to Mr. Underhill
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I'm in favor of cancelling all these racial and religious events. I don't see how no one has gone crazy about celebrating a religious holiday with a parade and fighting, the same with Juneteenth with all the fights and rapes they been having in other cities. The same thing with the Italian days on Hertel, too many fights and attacks to continue and the celebration is pointless anyway. They are all made up holidays just to make one group feel like they are better then everyone else that day.

So yeah I don't think we need to have these parades and special days especially when the tax payers are footing the bill.

We don't need a special parade for the citizens who were born gay or who chose to be gay. It just isn't that necessary in this day and age of instant communication through the internet and cell phones. Getting the word out and getting support for special causes can be done without a parade.

replied to grad94
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wow, someone really rained on his parade!!

replied to Mr. Underhill
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No one chooses to be GLBT it is determined in the womb.

replied to Mr. Underhill
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I bet Mr. Underhill also hates clowns.

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Funny how when some politicians support a seemingly popular idea, they are all of a sudden great....when only a few months earlier, these same politicians presided over one of the most dysfunctional entities New York has ever seen.

Cuomo takes an easy out by saying that religious organizations will not be forced to participate in those "ceremonies or celebrations". Okay fine. But that is pretty light weight.

Fast forward two years. Our fictitious same-sex married, loving, civic-minded, responsible, successful couple Sam and Joe decide they want to adopt a child.

Will Cuomo's legislation force that same religion-based adoption agency to provide a child to Sam and Joe?

Shouldn't that same religion-based adoption agency - by the tenets of their beliefs - have the freedom to deny adoption to a same-sex couple? Since same-sex marriage is not recognized and they want to place children into "traditional" married homes...will they be allowed to practice their faith freely or will government then claim that they are being discriminatory?

Do I want government intruding into religion that way? Do I want government forcing a particular religion to adopt its secular mandate? What is this Iran? China?

All this rhetoric about rights and freedoms and separation of church/state is fine....but it has to work both ways...otherwise it is bad legislation. From what I've read, all we're discussing is how everyone loves a wedding....but if you pass legislation that allows religious organizations to exempt themselves from participating in it, you need to make sure that other religion-based functions besides sanctification of marriage are also exempt from charges of discrimination.

To paraphrase commenter "Steel", I think any true liberal would be on board with that.

Write your legislators and tell them they need to make the law consistent...and not just focus on wedding days.


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The law is about giving all people the same right to create life partnerships which provide certain privileges with regard to child custody, property, health decisions etc. It has nothing to do with holding a ceremony in a church. That is why churches are not included in this law. The church has no bearing on law it is simply a ceremony of symbolic nature which the government should claim no authority over.

If the religious organization chooses not to provide adoption services to gay couples then it should receive no government aid for their service - this is because the government should not 1. promote discrimination, 2. promote the teaching of a religious belief. This is what a true liberal would believe.

A true conservative should be horrified that the government tells you who you can and cannot marry.

replied to Jimbuffalo
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jimbuffalo: No, the catholic church will not be required to place a child with gay parents if it chooses not to.

However, if they accept public funds (i.e., taxpayer money), then the church has to follow state law, and state law is that they cannot discriminate in their placing of adoption.

So: the church has three options. 1) It can either continue to receive public money and place children, provided it also places children with gay parents.
2) It can refuse all public money and therefore it doesn't have to follow state anti-discrimination laws. This means it can refuse to place children with gay parents. OR,
3) It can just stop all adoptions and blame it on same sex marriage.

So far, the church has always chosen No. 3. It doesn't have to -- it could choose No 2. But the church would prefer to stop all adoptions and blame the gays rather than do what it can.

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Rand- Your last comment makes no sense, but that's besides the point.

The fact is that current legislation is NOT CLEAR on these more far reaching concerns. If the Catholic Church does not endorse same-sex marriage, that is their decision. If you don't like it, you don't have to. But you have to respect it. Similarly, if government allows same-sex marriage and you don't like it, you don't have to. But you have to respect it.

Again - call your senators and tell them to FIX THE LEGISLATION instead of claiming that anyone who has a different opinion, biblical view, believes in faeries, suffers from homophobia, etc. is an out of touch moron.

There are republicans who support same-sex marriage and democrats who oppose it, so calling this matter a "Catholic" issue or a "republican" issue is just venemous media-driven prejudice. If you are offended by anti-gay rhetoric, you should not respond with anti-Catholic rhetoric.

Is it right for the government to force Catholic hospitals to provide abortion services? No! Is it right for the government to force Catholic adoption services to support adoption by same-sex couples? The answer there should be "no" as well.

So stop railing against the opposition and get your legislators to put provisions into the bill that protects those with whom you disagree so as to allow them to live according to their beliefs and design as well. IT IS THE SAME FIGHT YOU ARE FIGHTING. Gaining rights at the expense of limiting another's freedom is unjust.

We pay these politicians to understand these issues and not just cheerlead for or against any particular sentiment. These should be issues that legislators discuss and hammer out. Instead, they line up like lemmings and vote the party line for political quid pro quo. Time to stop the BS and FIX THE LEGISLATION!

If same-sex couples want to marry, in my opinion, the government should be neutral and allow them, but not at the expense of forcing secular laws upon religious institutions and their conscientious objections/faith traditions.

The legislation, as I understand it, does not provide those protections...and, as implied, you really do not want the government to absorb the costs of removing tax exempt status for Catholic and other religious institutions. Anyone who suggests doing so is naive given all the education, healthcare and social services provided by religious institutions at no charge to the gov't.

This is a gnarly issue and has been coming for a long time. It looks really close to passing...if only these goofballs in Albany would do what they are paid to do and FIX THE LEGISLATION!!

replied to Rand503
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@STEEL > You never cease to make me smile! I am gone for one day and have been laughing my ass off at your replies on this thread. They are hilarious, thanks for sharing!

I don't think I've ever seen anyone accuse others of being a "true conservative" as much as you did yesterday. Your thoughts on what government should or shouldn't be supporting are just precious. I have been laughing my ass off at your comments for the past 10 minutes. You really made my day!

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How are my thoughts on what government should and should not do "precious"? What does that mean?

replied to bobbycat
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re: "but odds are most of his constituents are Catholic"

Frankly, it wouldn't matter if 99.9% of his constituents were Catholic. Freedom of religion is guaranteed to everyone, regardless of the majority's opinions. This is not mob rule. Our constitution protects the rights of the individual. If you don't believe in gay marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex. But that doesn't give you the right to prevent your neighbor from do doing. Your beliefs may not be imposed upon them. Consenting adults. Government has no business getting in the middle of sexuality between consenting adults.

replied to STEEL
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I don't know how this got posted here. It was a response to Urban Cowboy's comment way above. Sorry for the confusion.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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I just don't see the big deal. I am a happily married heterosexual with two kids. I come from a traditional Irish Catholic family with two gay uncles, one through marriage and the other blood related. It has never phased me, bothered me, that they are gay. I also consider myself a social conservative democrat/libertarian. I work in EMS and have many co-workers who are gay/lesbian.
My wife and I have two friends, who are gay, in a very dedicated relationship, living together, etc. I don't see why so many people are overly concerned with what people do behind there doors.
It does not have an impact on your daily life. I don't wake up every morning screaming from a nightmare "Oh dear, the Gays are getting married". Who cares? It's not my concern. People get divorced everyday, a more serious interpretation of where the state of marriage is today I believe.

People came to this country for religious freedom, of course the ones that landed originally were the most uptight British twats. You must be unbearable to have the Brits kick you out!
However, the nonsense that Jesus, the Bible, etc; vow that homosexuality is evil is ridiculous.

Do people forget their were civilizations prior to 2011 years ago and religions prior to Christianity. The Greeks and Romans, and Egyptians were known for their exploits into homosexuality. So people that follow the literal translation of "The Book". such as that fool calling for the end of the world a couple weeks back are just feeding on the nerves of a rather large population of people that fear the unknown.

Let them get married. More pressing issues such as the continual decline of the Buffalo/Niagara Region, how we fail to market and capitialize on a World Wonder in our backyard, the brain drain of the area, etc.

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"He has stated that he believes in the issue from a civil rights, standpoint, but has difficulty reconciling that with his Catholic beliefs." -- How about separation of church from state...

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It kind of says something when religious teachings don't include civil rights. How can you do the work of a God that doesn't want women to drive or blacks to vote?

Even a religious official can only go so far in interpreting what God wants. An elected official has an easier job, since the people they represent are a little more clear on making their preferences known than the big guy in the sky.

replied to TomatoePotatoe
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As every Senator knows, the USA Constitution involves separation of church and state; not an easy separation, especially with the pressures religion can inflict, but absolutely essential to adhere to.

Apparently, even after having been divorced, someone with the power of a senator need not fear being excomminicated!?

Therefore, I wonder if he feels some other sort of pressure than the fear of excommunication? Might he be afraid of being considered "a fallen away Catholic" if he falls too far from the fold?! LOL

Otherwise, what IS Grisanti's heartfelt reason for voting yes or no?

I am not expressing a personal view about this form of joining two lives together.

I am also not expressing my religious views, although I did once have a lady friend who actually WAS told she could no longer go to "mass" or receive "communion" because of having been divorced. She remained extremely upset over that all of her adult life. (She was a loving wife, mother and grandmother, without the escape routes of a senator.)

What I do wish though is that people would make up new words instead of changing the meanings of good old words such as "gay" or "marriage".

And I do feel that MARRIAGE means only the union of a man and woman, so please, people, find a different word...

(and yes, I do know about proper paragraph structuring.)

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that's like saying: please find a different word for when women get hunting licenses because men want that word for themselves. please find a different word for when brown people get drivers licenses because white people want that word for themselves. please find a different word for when jews get contractors licenses because gentiles want that word for themselves.

you already have a name for your religious ceremonies: holy matrimony. now please allow the state to issue marriage licenses on a fair and equal basis.

replied to Crisa
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I'm thinking of "holy matrimony" as being considered holy and a religious term. Marriage means a man and woman being united through a religions ceremony or a civil ceremony.

But I am amused by your recent-grad outlook...

Meanwhile, Happy Father's Day all, (wives and sweethearts and children and all included) in what tomorrow will be a very family day!

replied to grad94
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Its a word you moron. Marriage Equality is more on the EQUAL side than the marriage side. It's a civil liberty issue not a religious one. So basically you also condone separate drinking fountains for gays and straight people too...

Crisa, obviously you need a hobby other than coming up with mundane acronyms for something you don't even support or understand.

I love how your equating same-sex rights to e-mail. Thank god your not our Senator.

replied to Crisa
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Why do you got to be racist all the time?

replied to grad94
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Has this Grasanti guy ever read the constitution. He is basing this vote on personal,religous beliefs, this man should be out of office, this is against our constitutional rights to have this man make decisions.

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A civil union is as much of an oxymoron as being happily married.

Let everyone have equal access to misery and resentment with the possibility of losing more than half of everything they own due to one bad decision.

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As a character in Lake Wobegone said: "Next time, I'm not going to get married. I'm just going to find some woman I don't like and buy her a house."

replied to urbanesque
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On June 17, 2011 at 12:30 PM I expressed my view of finding new words for the traditional words gay and marriage.

On the following June 19th Mr. Fairbanks wrote of same-sex marriage that "it may warrant a whole new word", to which Ms Lambert exclaimed "Woooyah"!!! (But I am sure she did not mean to replace the word marriage with the word whoooyah. LOL)

Then today, on June 20th, the local newspaper published Mr. Fairbanks.

So then, Mr. Fairbanks and Ms Lambert, are you reading here at B.Ris. in Buffalo, NY???

One thing I have noticed in at least the past 20 years is that many men and women, especially those with children, have chosen, for various legit reasons, NOT to marry. So then, "marriage" as a word and an institution may be up for grabs afterall?!

But what about "Monday's Child"? Or more to the point, what about Sunday's child in the verse Monday's Child??? LOL

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Since men and women still do marry each other, and it appears no one in same-sex arrangements are presently researching a different naming (as far as I can find), then how about moving in the same direction as electronic messaging did?

Example: Instead electronic messaging became e-mailing shortened to e-mail or email so as to be distinguished from postal mailing, which is also known as snail mail. Incidentally, electronic messaging did not become e-messing, which would have required to much messy explaining!

Suggestion: While marriage only means a union between a man and a woman, same-sex arrangements could become s-s-marriages, or simplify that to ss-marriage or ssmarriage or most simply SSM...

And thus could come about the formal title: Mr. & Mr., SSM or Mrs. & Mrs., SSM or ms & ms, SSM...

I think same-sex unions are here to stay making it necessary to find a way........

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