A CANAL TOO FAR?

Check out the demographic of the people down there. Middle aged white 50 somethings that have nothing better to do with their time than complain. Its a sad day when the minority of people make the majority of the decisions. Dont you think if this was such a terrible idea there would be thousands protesting outside......but nope you get close to a hundred, minus the cheesey band. These people complain how nothing gets done, they are the reason nothing gets done! They file lawsuits and hold stupid protests which keeps business from relocating here. We should be rolling out the red carpet to get business to come here, but instead we protest and rally, what a waste. On top of that all they propose is to put up a tent city on the waterfront with greenspace. Great idea, if I wanted greenspace I could go to any of the 10 plus parks DT. I want an experience and a destination that will draw people from out of town not a bunch of tent hobos.

Thank you so much Partnership for the Public Good especially Micaela and Megan. It is awesome to see your hard work and dedication to this process. Again.... Godd work Tim Tielman, Micaela Shapiro-Shellaby and Mark Goldman,and all of you that made it out.

I can't wait until Tim Tielman and Bruce Fischer squander away any chance of us having anything worthwhile along the waterfront. They want a lot of park space with no parking, no retail except by small vendors that will jack up prices beyond belief. They don't want parking, so the waterfront will only be accessible by metro so that will keep east side and west side residents away. Fischer and Tielman are only in this for themselves, there are no other points of view except their own points of view. Any other point of view is wrong and must be shut up with a lawsuit or protest.

Put a fork in the waterfront, it is doomed to mediocrity from here on out.

Why do these out of touch naysayers keep on talking about Bass Pro, that horse left the barn months ago. I listened to the presentation on line by ECHDC and it was a common sense approach to building out the area leaving plenty of room for open space and retail. Let the process take place and see what they have planned before setting up a tent to sell overpriced hippie junk.

OK, seriously, what is with this OBSESSION with parking???
Have any of you visited any other city?

Big cities function without huge friggen parking lots all the time. In fact, poor parking is what they are known for. So people, educated people with real money to spend, take public transit.
And if that happened, maybe our transit system would develop into something much more functional.

Tell me how a parking lot contributes to a neighborhood? Who wants to live next to a parking lot? When does a parking lot raise the property value?

The answer is that it doesn't. Ever.

As an NYC transplant, I can tell you, we took the train and the subway and the bus. We knew the system and it worked. And it left room for the kinds of things that attract people to cities in the first place. Attractions, not parking bring people in.

What makes villages like Williamsville a fun place to shop? Is it their big chain retailers? Their parking? No. It's unique, it's "cute", it's neighborhoody. And it clearly isn't hurting.

To make Buffalo a destination, it can't be like every other destination. It just can't. Cheektowaga is 20 minutes away. Let's try for creative solutions so we are not fighting these same problems 10 years from now.

Have any of these 'Rally' people ever been outside of Buffalo??? REALLY?? Ever been to Baltimore? NYC's Lower East Side area? Look at how VIBRANT those waterfronts are with RETAIL, RESTAURANTS, ATTRACTIONS, ECT. A 'Tent' with crap will not draw tourists to the waterfront, a digging site and open space will not draw tourists either. WALK THE 'F' UP!!!! The majority of us want buildings up with a mix of local and national retailers, restaurants, 'FUN' Museumes, 'NICE' Hotels and more....Not the boring crap these 'Rally' old bitter people want.

If you subtract the media then there were only about 20 people there. Not much of a protest by anyones standards. Especially for a protest held outside of regualar working hours, heavily promoted on bith TV and the Buffalo News. The story is not the protest. The story is how VERY FEW people agree with the dozen or two of protestors.

It seems that they may be in cahoots with HSBC and want to create a HUGE yard for all of their employees to eat lunch in.

To the folk who are "mad as hell" at the people participating in democracy: How about holding a counter rally? The self-proclaimed "majority" could preach of the region's salvation being tied to spending millions of scarce funds on canals and parking ramps for a never to come retailer. Unlike the "minority", your cause would have the backing of corporate types like uncle Carl who could bankroll a much more effective pr campaign.

Seriously people, Bass Pro is dead. I'm sorry, it sucks, but your going to have to move on. Time to look at more practical alternatives like Bini's park, AL's NPS center, or my favorite, Bruce Fisher's clean the water idea. Leaving the place as is would be better than blowing money on frivolous things like fake canals and a not needed ramp.

Don't they all look like they're all havein a knee slappin time
freezing their butts off. Pathetic and depressing. Dr. Seuss looks like he could use a dose of ex-lax.

NYC builds a "tent city" in Bryant Park with a skating rink, I belive it is open on weekends around the holidays. If done right this could be a fine 1st phase of building a larger and more substantial retail developement on the waterfront. It could be open Fri 5-9, Sat 11-6 and Sun 11-6 from June-Oct. and then Sat & Sun 11-4 during the holidays. This with nightly fireworks or other lighting features, live music and food vendors could draw. But a real construction plan of retail, restaurants and entertainment needs to be developed right now. Incentives for tent city vendors could be made to get them signed on permanently.
I vote for Dinasoar BBQ with a large live music space (ala House of Blues).

The drive to "do something with the waterfront" has been the biggest waste of time, energy, and money in local history.

There is no compelling reason to do ANYTHING down there. The area does not need more retail shops, more restaurants, or more parks. We have plenty, if not too many, of those already. And we certainly don't need any of that smack dab underneath the Skyway.

Just because all sorts of PROSPEROUS cities have cute canal districts does not mean that control-board ridden Buffalo and Erie County need or can afford one.

Just leave it be down there and tackle any one of a number of actual pressing problems, and revisit this when and if the Skyway ever comes down.

Interesting comments about how a "minority" group is trying to steer the design away from the ECHDC plans.

The ECHDC has 10 people on their board. Far fewer people than typically show up at meetings speaking out against the ECHDC plan.

Anyone who thinks Jordan Levy really supports the 2004 plan hasn't read the 2004 plan and the ECHDC plans. There are several major differences. I could detail them here, but better that people read and compare the plans themselves so that they can have their own first hand knowledge of the differences.

I am not even sure what to think of this rally or the ECHDC. In fact I have become quite jaded on the entire subject of the waterfront because it seems like there is no light at the end of the tunnel. I am not sure what is missing to make this happen, and the same goes for most of Buffalo.

I started a thread in the Forums section to ask for feedback on what we are missing in Buffalo. What is holding us back and keeping us from moving ahead?

I certainly do not know what is best for the waterfront especially in this economy. But what other American city on the Great Lakes has so much land on the waterfront just wasting away? Any where else, it would be prime real estate. It seems to me that when people can identify and rectify the barriers (real and imaginary) to development, things will move forward. Some of these obstacles are now in the process of change. So, it seems to me that any discussion on what to build there is premature.

i'm not responding to anyone but this is my opinion: The ECHDC wants to build the underground parking because they will receive all revenues from that parking garage and we're paying for it(THIS IS A FACT). There is a surplus of parking in that area already that isn't used even during its peak hours. Plus people from Amherst and in between HSBC Arena can ride the subway because it drops you off literally 50 feet from Canalside and I'm sure the NFTA could reroute busses to aide in transportation so everyone stop whining about parking and transportation. If we have to build parking at least make it free to the public or give us two hours of free parking. This is just a minor reason why we see so many businesses flee downtown, parking is extremely expensive for no reason and downtown is literally made of parking lots. Another thing a very small population lives downtown and a decreasing population works downtown so the waterfront really should cater to them first because they will be using the area more than any of us from the suburbs. Why do you think Elmwood or NYC works because they're dense areas that first cater to their surrounding residents and then worry about tourists or suburban travelers. So rather than focusing on what cute attractions and retailers we'll have we should focus on residential or mixed use buildings first and provide for them. Hypothetically if we put a Bed bath & body works or an equivalent local business version who's going to go there and buy soap or a some towels or whatever in the middle of winter and support that business its going to be the residents of downtown not the majority of us from the suburbs. I really think the key to the success to the waterfront will be establishing a population or critical mass near the waterfront because they will be the ones supporting those businesses/restaurants/retailers more than anyone. But obviously we need to make downtown more appealing and affordable and keep it local. So I think the first step should be mixed use buildings composing of retail or restaurant on the 1st floor and office or residential every floor above that. I understand that everyone wants to see something different at the waterfront but we need to ask ourselves first really how often are we going to go down there and support those businesses because for anyone that has ever walked to a Sabres game for even a block in the dead of winter knows that the waterfront is freezing cold and no one wants to be walking around there. And in order for the waterfront to succeed it has to serve a year round purpose, businesses will simply not make it through the winter and cannot survive on a seasonal basis. I know I've said this already several times but the key thing is to establish a larger population downtown or get more people flowing through that area on a day to day basis and the waterfront should be BUILT FOR BUFFALO FIRST, TOURISTS SECOND.

Wait, Bass Pro isn't going to the waterfront?

Nice hat, Bruce.

"In True Buffalo Spirit"....you've got that right. Another small, agenda filled group that needs to prove its legitimacy tries to stymie progress after how many community out reach and feedback meetings, CBA's and design changes? Is there anyone who doesn't know what Tim Tielman wants??? Your voices have been heard again and again and again. But it's not about being heard or acknowledged, it's about the ECHDC doing it exactly the way they want it done. Anything less is of course wrong and not listening to the "community".

I have come to appreciate, support and market our incredible architecture to as many people from outside of the area and residents living within WNY as I can. Buffalo's authentic character and remaining architecture can be one catalyst to economic improvement and should be preserved. However, as with most of these groups they are radical, narrowly scoped, and tend to adversely impact their own agendas. Tim Tielman appears to fall right into that mold. There is no perspective or legitimacy to anything outside of his prism of extreme preservation. It is the all or nothing mentality of these organizations that impede economic development.

Okay "BurchJP" and "castle18" - why do you call the people opposed to the ECHDC plan a "small" group when the ECHDC board has only 10 people - and fewer than that who vote on their plans?

"The community" agreed in 2004 on a plan. The ECHDC plan is NOT the 2004 plan. Take the time to read both plans.

Read the 2004 Master Plan page 20, paragraphs 2 and 3; compare with what has been built at the site.

Read the 2004 Master Plan page 39, fourth column of text, paragraph 2; compare with MGPP page 17, section K.

Compare the 2004 Master Plan page 29 to MGPP Exhibit A Maps page 4.

Get back to us after you read these documents.

http://eriecanalharbor.com/canal_side.asp

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7353496/Erie-Canal-Harbor-Master-Plan-2004

I cannot believe how many people are willing to go so far out of their way to protest against something that they don't even understand. How about using some of that motivation towards actually researching the issue. YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG!!!!!! I cannot stress that enough! Maybe if you actually attended one of the many Open Houses that the ECHDC held last week, you would understand that this is not true. The plan that they have in place has not and NEVER had been built around the idea of having a big business such as Bass Pro come to the area. I know this because the architect who has been working on the design for the past 15 years was at the open house and openly addressed this issue to one of the councilmen who could not get it through his head! The ECHDC has been more than accommodating in speaking with Fred Kent, more than a hundred local businesses, the general public and not only hearing their opinions, but INCORPORATING them as well.
The only hinderance to the progress is YOU! Stop fighting against issues that DO NOT EXIST!!! GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!!!

Bob - Are talking to me? I did attend one of the meetings last week (check the videos). And I attended all or most of the meetings during the EIS process. Yes, Fred Kent met with the ECHDC. Fred Kent believes the faux canal and parking garage and previous Bass Pro plans are terrible.

I have copies of all the documents generated during the EIS process. I have not read every page but I have read substantial parts of the documents.

Are my references above mistaken in pointing out discrepancies between the 2004 plan and the ECHDC plans? Please tell us how.

I asked several weeks ago that the 2004 Master Plan be placed on the ECHDC website. Still not there.

While coming into the a little late I'd like to point out that this protesting group or rally is absolutely not a majority and it would be ashame to think that our canalside area should be controled to their liking.

If you dont believe me then look at the 700 response mayor brown got and tell me what percentage want boring open space under the skyway with a few tiny restaurants, a tent city, and a dig site.

What a joke these obstructionists are. The ECHDC should file a counter suit when they are sued after they vote on what to do.

So, the upshot of today's meeting is that a) the parking garage is tabled and b)the canals will be designed to look more authentic.

Do you think this was owing to external pressure, or did the ECHDC make the judgement that these items needed more thought?

Returning from the ECHDC board meeting I'll note that the small group of ECHDC directors unanimously endorsed the plan by a large group of citizens to table the planned parking ramp. Canal plans where the canal used to be are in the works (endorsed by the community) - the only difficulty may be the elevation of the canal due to the Hamburg Drain and other utilities.

Temporary market using tents was endorsed; the mayor credited Tim Tielman for the idea. The ECHDC will have 3 sub-committees; Jordan Levy stated that he hoped Tim Tielman would serve on the Historic District committee.

Wow i must always be a day late and a dollar short but you guys being on the news is what made me want to do some research and be a part of what is going on down. there.

I think we should get Jimmy Buffet to build a Margaritaville here and start our own "Market at the Harbor" whether it be a slabbed pole barn type place or whatever. Build it and they will come

This will turn into another epic fail for Buffalo. Nobody can agree on anything, design has been in the works for 15 YEARS and I smell lawsuits. Whatever, we are used to it [failure].

No waterfront garage for the self-proclaimed "majority."
Condolences! The bums lost!

Haha, so Tim Tielman gets a seat at the "Historic District Committee". What the hell does that even mean? ECHDC stop giving legitimacy to these radicals by creating figurhead committees. This is like letting your 7 year old kid ride around on the Zamboni at a Sabres game.

Ah, I can't wait to get back to Buffalo from vacation in South Florida. Being in a place where economic development projects go from concept to reality in a matter of years just felt strange to me. Any progress on that new Peace Bridge while I was gone???