City September 8, 2010 4:30 PM

Urgent Opportunities: The List

Urgent Opportunities: The List

Recently, a small beaten down building in Buffalo's Cobblestone District was in the news because City Court granted a demolition order at the request of the owner.  The story of this demo permit became the most recent preservation controversy and headline in the Buffalo area. Since the story broke the courts have stayed the demo order pending further investigation.  So why all the fuss about this building?

The building, dubbed the Blacksmith Shop after its most recent and long departed tenant is close to 140 years old.  Buildings of this age date to near the end of Canal Era Buffalo, a time when railroads were becoming the favored mode of transit.  Buildings this old in Buffalo are becoming increasingly rare. This one is a major piece of the so called Cobblestone District. I say "so called" because most of the Cobblestone District is now unfortunately composed of parking.  The small collection of historic buildings and newly paved cobbled streets is an official historic preservation district.  It has one dense block of remaining historic buildings.  Everything else in the area has been removed.  The streets were repaved around the time that HSBC Area was constructed. Preservationists at that time lobbied hard to have these buildings retained and eventually convinced the powers that be that the streets should be repaved with cobbles to bring back its original ambiance.  The plan was to bring these buildings back to use in the shadow of the arena and save a small piece of the city's heritage by using the drawing power of the new arena to infuse them with life.  With no real plan of action the buildings sat mostly idle and in decline for many years afterward.  Recently a few of the buildings in the district have been renovated to great success.  Others, including The Blacksmith, continued in decline with no apparent prospects for reuse. The insanity inherent in the proposed Blacksmith demolition will result in the removal of a real Canal Era building while the city struggles to create a fake Canal Era village just a few blocks away.  It is crazy - tear down the real and create a fake version nearby. The real thing can't be brought back so why remove it for no good reason?

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"We need a list of historic buildings that are in imminent or near imminent danger."  That is the call after each preservation crisis that arises in Buffalo. The cause of architectural preservation has been in the Buffalo headlines with more and more frequency in recent years.  This can be seen as evidence that the increasingly fragile plight of our historic heritage has become a more important issue to a large number of people.  However, the interest in historic buildings may not be completely in sync.  Some may be in favor of saving a work of human effort that can never be replaced.  Opposing interests may be concerned with removing what is considered an eyesore, hazard, or impediment to development. I clearly fall on the side of saving the heritage that makes Buffalo a special place to be.  I believe that historic buildings are assets which can add great value beyond the basic commodity of real estate.  These buildings are finite in number and can never be brought back once they are gone.  The people who made them and many who made lives in them are long dead.  The societies that conceived them are what we have built our own society upon.  These buildings tell us where we came from and can also provide beautiful environments within which to play out our lives today and into the future. Contrary to a common reprise, historic buildings are not a part of Buffalo's past.  They are part of its present.  They exist now and can be a tremendous asset to leverage growth in Buffalo's future. Once removed, historic buildings DO become part of the past and have no ability to move the city into a more successful future. Their finite nature in itself should make these buildings valuable to society without controversy... but preservation is a complex issue. Saving these buildings for future generations will take money, planning, education, vigilance, luck, and lots of publicity.  

Unlike wealthier cities where historic buildings often fall to new structures, Buffalo's historic buildings are more commonly victims of neglect and often fall only to be replaced with nothing but weeds or asphalt.  A majority of the preservation controversies of late have centered on buildings that have partially collapsed due to long term neglect and disuse.  Ironically the people who step up in an effort to prevent the complete removal of these buildings in advanced states of decay are often vilified.  They are called obstructionists.  They are marginalized. The "preservationists" are criticized as inattentive to at-risk buildings and scolded for not doing something sooner.   This is all while the derelict owner is given a pass for complete mismanagement of a building. (I call it mismanagement but often demolition by neglect and lack of basic investment IS a management strategy in itself, which can pay rewards for owners, but most often does so at the expense of surrounding property owners, city tax payers and city residents in general now and in the future).

The fact is that the "preservationists" are not doing preservation as a paid full time career in most cases.  The "preservationists" are more likely than not concerned citizens who want their city to prosper and who realize the high potential value of irreplaceable historic assets.  The best illustration of this was evident a year ago when residents surrounding the collapsing Whites Livery mounted an emergency campaign to save the building.  This was after years of complaints to City officials about the ongoing neglect suffered by the building.  Still they were vilified for being obstructionists, for not acting sooner, for not stepping up with the money needed to save the building, for not having a list of at-risk buildings in hand.  This group was partially successful.   Much of the building was lost but they saved a substantial part and it will soon be rebuilt for residential use.  Comprehensive vigilance in the cause of saving buildings in Buffalo is a giant undertaking beyond the ability of individuals, neighborhood groups, and poorly funded non profits.  It is a cause which needs to be taken up by all.  If you are complaining that this or that group did not do enough, then you are complaining about yourself because it will take the awareness and efforts of many, many people to save Buffalo's incredible wealth of historic buildings.

So with that in mind, what about having a list of buildings in danger that must be saved?  Based on Buffalo's growing portfolio of recent historic building restorations this would not only be a list of buildings that should be saved, it would be a list of buildings that present great opportunity for the city and investors, buildings that we cannot afford to loose.  In the spirit of 'doing' rather than complaining, myself along with small group of people have been thinking about just such a list.  We came together with the mutual understanding that Buffalo's endangered historic assets DO need to be catalogued and publicized. We are not a new preservation group in association with or in competition with any other group.  We are simply people who know the tremendous value these buildings hold and who do not want to see them lost to history.   The task of creating a list is big.  Creating a comprehensive list of endangered buildings would be near impossible without a full time staff and could be overwhelming to users and thus ineffectual.   We decided to start with a list of 20 to 25 buildings and possibly grow it to near 100 in the future.  A list by itself is meaningless.  The list is a tool to bring attention to these opportunities which are currently undervalued.  With regular attention on these buildings it is our hope that they will be seen and recognized for the assets they are.  Soon we will start to roll out our list of buildings.  We will shine some light on each building, publicized it the best of our ability and explain our reasoning for why these buildings must not be allowed to disappear. We will need your help in doing this.  Stay tuned for more on the list in the coming weeks.  

In the meantime check out this group called Young Preservationists Association of Pittsburgh (YPA). YPA bills themselves as  "a regional provider of value-added preservation services that encourage the participation of young people in historic preservation. YPA provides events, tours, research, training, technical assistance, and special projects that encourage the next generation to take a leadership role in preserving their communities."   They have been instrumental in saving a high percentage of buildings which they have focused attention on by getting young people involved in their city and helping them get a full appreciation for its built environment and the opportunities it provides. 

Get Connected:

Preservation-Ready Sites on Facebook

Group e-mail

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Great article, Steel. I think one of the problems with creating a list is that often times nobody realizes that a building is at risk until the eleventh hour. For example, the Guaranty Building would obviously top any list of "must preserve" buildings in Buffalo, but many would question why it needs to be on a list when it's obviously in no risk of demolition (right now).

Is the list then meant to be of buildings that are obviously at risk because of lack of maintenance by neglectful owners? In that case, if the building is known to be in danger, I wonder if the effort would be better spent on pushing the inspections and code enforcement departments to do their job. Maybe it's all part of the same thing? The list of "top at-risk buildings" is a means to publicize the problem and encourage some public pressure on the city government and the building owner to maintain the building.

My other problem with a top 25 list is that some will interpret this to mean that the other thousands of historic buildings are fair game for demolition. And often it's not only the architecturally-unique buildings that need to be preserved, but the ordinary human-scaled buildings that really create our urban neighborhoods. That's another reason why preservation will often end up being a case-by-case sort of thing.

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JS,

Your point are all right on target. The list will be of buildings that are of imminent risk because of poor condition of the possibility of low quality development. The list will be a tool to alert the public to the possibility that the building will be lost. The public must then take up the ball and make the building a major issue. If 100 or 500 people call city hall to complain that a building is not being properly maintained we can all make a difference. If there is anything that will get the attention of government officials it is lost of calls and letters. List list will also be a way to get investors interested.

We are novices. The list will not be perfect and it will certainly not be comprehensive. Let's hope that the list is successful we can have buildings removed from it in a positive manner.

replied to JSmith
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"The list will be of buildings that are of imminent risk because of poor condition or the possibility of low quality development."

One problem with this is that unless a building is landmarked or part of a historic district there's very little that can prevent a building from being demolished and replaced with "low quality development", if that development meets the city's zoning code. If you complain that a historic building is not being properly maintained and the city fines the owner, the owner may simply decide to demolish the building and replace it with a parking lot or strip plaza, etc.

This is happening in North Buffalo, where the owner of a 1920s building wants to sell it to a developer who will demolish it and replace it with a very suburban-style medical office. The owner basically admitted that he has not properly maintained the building (in fact, that was his justification - "it's beyond repair - it has to come down"), and because the building is only historic in the sense of being old, there's really nothing the city can do to prevent the sale or demolition, and since the zoning code permits low quality development, that's apparently what we will be getting.

I don't know what the answer is, short of greatly expanding the list of local landmarks or historic districts, and that can be very difficult and controversial without owner buy-in. If the zoning code does in fact get updated to enforce a true urban context, that will at least address the "low quality development" issue. We will still lose older buildings, but they will have to be replaced by something that maintains the urban context of its environment.

replied to STEEL
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JSmith>"This is happening in North Buffalo, where the owner of a 1920s building wants to sell it to a developer who will demolish it and replace it with a very suburban-style medical office. "

Where abouts in N Buffalo is this happening?

replied to JSmith
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Gallagher's Printing on Delaware just north of Tacoma. The planning board approved the project several months ago, but I haven't heard any news about it since then. It's frustrating to me because that is just about the last urban block left between Kenmore and Amherst.

replied to Armchair MBA
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Ugh. That area has seen some abuse over the past 10 years or so. This project, the ever expanding Sunny Italy parking lot on the south side of Tacoma and the new cinderblock facade on Scimes. The its getting to the point where the few remaining "urban" buildings on Delaware are looking out of place.

replied to JSmith
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Preservationists are not called names for trying to prevent neglected historic buildings from collapsing.

They're called names because of their stupid tactics that make EVERY project subject to lawsuit if they don't like the planned outcome.

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What project has been stopped because of a preservationist law suite to block demolition of a historic building. I can't think of any.

replied to Jesse
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hey Steel-
didn't IBM want to knock down a few blocks of mansions on delaware for an office building in the 60's. i guess that was one project that didn't happen (thank heavens).

replied to STEEL
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OK you win - preservationists did stop that development in order to save 5 incredible mansions. Shame on them :-)

replied to sin|ill
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Fantastic article Steel. This is a great concept and one worth supporting. (I think PBN would be a great organization to lead a youth-targeted initiative, like YPA.)

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Legal action was taken by preservationist Tim Tielman to stop demolition of the Squire House on Main Street, and several buildings at Main and Virginia. Tim is involved with the court actions to save the buildings in the Cobblestone District. Court hearing today was postponed til next week.

The community, including preservationists, and City Hall under Masiello, fought to save the Atwater House on Elmwood. Lost that one to Pano and BERC help from the Brown administration.

Commercial Slip was saved by a lawsuit - Tielman again. A lawsuit by Tielman (formerly of the Preservation Coalition of Erie County) forced the Pataki administration to fund the Psych Center buildings. I think we won, then lost, because one can't force the state to obey its laws, but it was settled with $100 million dedicated to the buildings from Albany. Unfortunately there is only about $75 million now because money was diverted to the Darwin Martin House and the awful Burchfield-Penney building (another lost lawsuit).

Unfortunately because destructionists (check Pano's campaign contributions) give more bucks to politicians than preservationists the only recourse preservationists have is to beg a sympathetic lawyer who needs no business with the city, to work pro bono for preservation. Fortunately we have a few of those lawyers.

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Good article Steel, glad to see that you are listening to the people who comment on BRO.

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Preservation of our built environment must be a long term strategy. Buildings that have stood for 100 or even 150 years should be seen as irreplaceable assets. It may take 20, 30, or even 50 years to restore or renovate the large number of worthy structures in Buffalo. We need to patient and recognize the value in preserving the unique fabric that defines and enriches our city. A first step would be to identify and protect the many endangered structures that are presently ignored ad endangered. These structures are many times in less desirable parts of the city but deserve a future.

My restoration here in Black Rock is now 20 years into my original 5 year plan. I could have rushed it but would not have been able to maintain the same quality and attention to detail. We need to see preservation in the same way and be willing to make a long term commitment to ensure our city has a brighter future.

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just want to echo jsmith's observation that any list can be used against you. say you publish your 25 or 50 or 100 buildings. then something really nice but not on *the list* comes before judge nowak for an emergency demo permit, and preservationists object. i can just hear the response: tough sh-t, people, it wasn't on *the list.*

i also wanted to second steel's complaint that an owner, be it a private individual, investment partnership, or the city, can neglect a building into oblivion and often does so deliberately. it sheds a few bricks, preservationists respond, and they get all of the heat, as though they personally have code enforcement powers, unlimited funds, and no other worldly responsibilities such as day jobs. like blaming the fire engine for the arson.

anyone who is determined to be rid of a building can pretty much achieve their goal, even if they're in a preservation district. did the preservation board vote against issuing your demo permit? have your common council member override it. or nudge some bricks loose and then get judge nowak to issue your emergency permit.

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I agree with some of your comments...but, what is the alternative? Continue to let all of this happen behind a shroud of secrecy and neglect? Or, try to open the process up, and create more visibility and participation by the larger community (and maybe expose some negligence in the process)?

replied to grad94
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travelrrr wrote:

"I agree with some of your comments...but, what is the alternative? Continue to let all of this happen behind a shroud of secrecy and neglect? Or, try to open the process up, and create more visibility and participation by the larger community (and maybe expose some negligence in the process)? "

hey, i'm all for promoting, marketing, and agitating for our old building stock. those are worthy efforts in their own right and *the list* is an ideal vehicle for these efforts.

and i'm as p---ed off as everyone else about how inside baseball in city hall continually undermines the community's preservation efforts and policies (e.g. how easy it is to get something demolished in a historic district).

i guess i need to be educated about how this list will 'open up the process and create more visibility' in city hall where the fates of so most vulnerable buildings are decided.

replied to Travelrrr
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This is a huge loss for the Cobblestone District and it will leave a gaping whole in that district.

But there are things that could have been and could be done:
1) Many cities save the facades and demolish the interior so the street scape is preserved.
2) Seal the contaminated brick so the building can be repurposed

As far as a list if endangered buildings WIKIPEDIA offers the perfect example of letting the public maintain and update the information. Google has satellite and street pictures so people dont even have to do it. Just provide a server, provide a place for people to link neighborhood, then address & google picture, then comment about the condition of the property.

The city can do searches for inspections
Preservationists can do searches for endangered properties
Neighborhoods can call attention to problem properties.

Kind suprises me that Buffalo has BuffaloRising which many cities would love to have toasting the amenities of their city yet Buffalo doesnt have the wherewithall to create such a database to knit its neighborhoods together.

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do you even bother to read the story, johnq? first paragraph states:

"Since the story broke the courts have stayed the demo order pending further investigation."

replied to JohnQBuffalo
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Talk about a f____d up bureaucracy.

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#1 Carl Paladino's Graystone

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knock it down....its an eye sore...make way for some kind of development....it will be sitting there for another 100 yrs....

if any of the people on this site don't like that the building is being demolished...then go develop it!

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Like clockwork......

replied to Gaustad1
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They would but they spent all their money on a new mac to complain on the internet and a fixie track bike to impress their friends.

Since they don't have jobs, they are tapped unless their parents want to the help out.

replied to Gaustad1
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Not really true Reggie, many on this site have solid credentials in preservation and have invested their time, energy, and dollars in our city.

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YOU on this site have solid credentials in historic preservation and have invested YOUR time, money and skills. Thank you.

The vast majority on this site, however, ride the bench in the game of life. They only hope to cheer for their team and boo everyone else.

replied to Blackrocklifer
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I suppose that is true of some, but also true about those that attack preservation, many armchair quarterbacks. Mojave, Skarnath, LovinlivinintheBuff, and Brownteeth all have made contributions to my knowledge and I am sure there are many others. Last but not least lets not forget about the JohnQBuffalo Instituute of Urban Planning and Family Values.

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Armchair quarterbacks abound on all sides. If this list spurs one side to greater civic action, then it is a positive development, there is no doubt.

FYI...The JohnQBuffalo Institute of Urban Planning and Family Values is now a SUNY Center of Excellence, our 2nd of 20 ranging from materials science to logistics to making shit up on the fly. A true libertarian such as JohnQ knows the value of a statist education.

replied to Blackrocklifer
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count me & the spouse among those who are fixing a needy old house plus we took on a small but derelict building in a low-income neighborhood.

replied to Blackrocklifer
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Good to hear, maybe we need a list of BRO commentator's that have invested or are willing to invest in preservation.

replied to grad94
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Come on Reggie, not all of us hipsters have fixies to buy, but we do have Vespas to maintain and cannot afford to restore old buildings.

In all seriousness though, even with the potential problems of this list, it will do more good than bad. Just because a building is not on the list does not necessarily doom it if it becomes endangered for some reason. We have to start somewhere. There can be a tiered master list that rates both the severity of damage / neglect and historic / architectural importance (so to speak).

Perhaps groups of people that live in certain areas of the city can be assigned to that area and help contribute buildings to the list that they see fit. They can also keep an eye on them and report issues frequently to draw attention by the city. That way it is lees overwhelming to keep track. Another strategy could be to utilize the Buffalo 311 app on your smart phone. These dedicated groups can go around together and send photos and complaints via this app to the city on a regular basis. I have to believe if we all contribute to our dedicated areas then we will eventually bring awareness and hopefully prevent demolition.

It would also be great if the city would offer assistance to property owners who need new roofs but cannot afford them. I know people will say if you can't afford it then why do you own the building but the fact is sometimes good intentioned people do own buildings that end up overwhelming them and that's probably why demolition becomes the only option. The city & state certainly helps far less deserving people.

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We keep an eye on our building stock here in Black Rock and have been pretty proactive when issues arise. This part of the neighborhood is relatively small and hemmed in between the railroads and the river so it is not too difficult. We also have a Historic Resources Survey underway to identify those structures that are National Register eligible and will make that list public when completed.

replied to brownteeth
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The building on Delaware Avenue next to Frank's Sunny Italy is a perfect example of why a "list" would be totally defecient in saving buildings.
All demolitions in the City come to the Preservation Board for review. Unfortunately unless the building is a landmark or in a preservation district the Board can only "recommend" against demolition. If they recommend against demolition they must prove the building to be eligible for landmark status.
Gallagher printing does not meet that criterea. But its loss does do irrepairable harm to to an area that looks more and more like Sheridan Drive every day. It is death from a thousand cuts. Plus the building proposed, which we have absolutely no say over is made of dry vit with exposed parking on Delaware AVE. It might as well be on Transit Road.

How would the "list" help here.

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As I have said before, what is the alternative? Just sit back and watch this happen?

A list can create public visibility and action on an issue (if the building does, in fact, make the List. If it doesn't, then we have another issue...) Public pressure, in the form of exposure, letter-writing and calling campaigns an/or suggestions/offers for re-use scenarios. Currently, too much of this is destruction/demolition is happening while the public interested in preservation merely acts passively and reactively without any firm strategy. A list could galvanize people...if they actually participate.

replied to r-k-tekt
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Playing devils advocate here - what comes from saving some of the buildings that some would deem preservation worthy? I am not talking HHR's Psyche Center or the Prudential, but the others, like the blacksmith?

Do they all sit dormant? What do we fill them all with? Someone has to pay taxes on all of them. Does a property owner have to pay taxes on a facade?

And who pays for all the remediation and rebuilding? Sprinkler systems are not cheap. And who refits the inside of some of these buildings, like the blacksmith shop? Needs a new roof, fire rated floors, sprinkler, all new windows, electrical, plumbing, insulation, asbestos abatement and associated NYS fees, repointing, etc. To name a few. Maybe that is a candidate to save facade and rebuild from the front wall. But then who pays the utilities? If you don't insulate these buildings and or do not heat, few buildings survive more than a couple Buffalo winters without. And do it all to code.

Or do we save them all and have a vacant ghost town of buildings that everyone wanted to save?

There may not be a solution that makes everyone (or anyone) on this site happy - especially when you are expecting the owners of these precious buildings to foot the preservation bill.

The only real solution is to get these buildings from the owners and preserve. And pay for it ourselves. And then we can all see firsthand the hoops owners have to jump thru. I have a bid in on a building I find significant, that is beginning to crumble. I am putting my money where my mouth is. I do not want to see an empty lot where this one is.

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I think that it is perfectly reasonable to expect the OWNER of a building to invest what it takes to keep the building at least safe and stable if not usable. This idea that a neglectful owner is somehow a victim is nonsense.

As to the rest of your statement - there are many buildings sitting vacant which have had no investment in years - that is kind of what happens when you own a business and do not invest in it. Conversely there are no empty renovated buildings and as a matter of fact the renovated buildings tend to attract other new business and investment.

We have to stop giving neglectful owners a pass. They are destroying the city!

replied to LastManIn
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And that is all well and good. Just add the only missing ingredient - CASH.

I am pooling mine for my cause. Let's all get out there and start some personal investing in Buffalo's preservation.

We can't wait for neglectful owners, including NYS, Buffalo and every other neglectful property owner to ruin this city.

replied to STEEL
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There are plenty of property owners who are currently letting their buildings rot while they have more than enough cash to stabilize them. What's lacking is the will of the city to enforce its codes. If the owner is unwilling to comply, the city should do the stabilization work, bill the owner, and put a lien on the property until the bill is paid.

For example, Carl Paladino is willing to spend $10 million of his own money on his quixotic campaign while the Greystone has an open hole in the roof.

But I do agree with your main point - we need more conscientious owners to outnumber the neglectful ones.

replied to LastManIn
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Not just cash but the will. It's not too difficult to get loans for capital improvements such as a new roof or windows but these owners have to be willing to do that. It would be ideal to set up a non-profit of some type and raise money to purchase and stabilize buildings, assuming of course that they are for sale. There are also plenty of tax incentives out there that allow for historic preservation to be done for less money. Then there is also the issue of buildings located in historic districts being required to use certain materials to meet preservation guidelines. Maybe it's time to ease the rules a bit if it means an owner can secure his/her building from the elements. I am going in front of the preservation board next week to use asphalt shingles on my house replacing the existing (crumbling) slate mansard roof. I can't afford to use slate but I can afford a slate looking asphalt shingle. If they hold me to the rules, which they didn't for the rest of my neighbors, then I am screwed.

replied to LastManIn
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I agree. Sorry to hear about the slate. I remember not too long ago a certain project had to deal with asbestos plaster and the recipe of a one finicky Mr. Wright. Preservationists required strict adherence to his recipe. All of the factors involved can be quite misguided. Those that have the properties and neglect. Those that rule from high on Mount Misguided, and those that referee from their armchairs.

I wish more money came from NYPA and NYS to help with this stuff, but again, all sides are misguided and misgoverned

replied to brownteeth
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While it might be a tough pill to swallow, the state knows what is best for both you and your house. Make sure to thank them come election day.

replied to brownteeth
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There are empty buildings that underwent huge preservation directed renovations. One being 491 Delaware. It was an important shell and all the exterior treatments on the Delaware side had to be approved by the powers that be. Costs to do this were outrageous.

And now that building is mostly vacant and with an owner still paying for it.

I am sure there are more.

But owners do not usually put any money in unless they plan to use or have a potential tenant lined up. I don't think anybody has that kind of money laying around. At least those of us not running for govner.

That's why I plan to do what I can myself.

replied to STEEL
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That is interesting because I have it on very good authority that the owner of 491 is planning a top notch restoration of the exterior and is very happy with his building. It sounds like you are just making crap up.

replied to LastManIn
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Last>"The only real solution is to get these buildings from the owners and preserve. And pay for it ourselves"

That makes sense. Gaustad made a good point earlier - although I wouldn't go that far - when saying "if any of the people on this site don't like that the building is being demolished...then go develop it!"

How I'd say it is even if no preservation advocate steps forward to develop a certain building, in many cases they could buy and mothball it, fix a roof, etc. (That isn't saying people don't have a right to complain about anything - of course they do.)

Recent complaints about Paladino are great examples. The Gretstone and Lourdes church were both for sale. Somebody who favors their preservation (or several chipping in, or a nonprofit org) could have bought either, fixed the roof, etc. Same with St Marys, same with the house that was next to Pano, ...many others.

A list is a good step, but if follow up is only to proactively complain it probably won't make much difference.

replied to LastManIn
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So if I have a house on the market that means I don't have to maintain it? I can leave it unsecured and open to the elements and to arsonists? I can let the lawn grow knee high and leave open garbage cans around attracting rats? I get a free pass from all housing code violations because there's a "for sale" sign in the lawn?

Now there's a loophole I'm sure the neighbors will appreciate...

replied to whatever
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At 491 the first floor has an insurance office. The owner lives in the upper floors.

It is hard to have an intelligent conversation about an important topic when people just make up phony information to back their argument. That is a great strategy that works for the Republicans but in this case what is the purpose of flat out making up crap?

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Simmer down steel. Not trying to ruffle feathers.

I just saw the property listed two days ago looking for renters for the majority of the space. I did not make that crap up.

It's hard to have an intelligent conversation when people only see one side, and that money appears out of thin air.

I have first hand experience with every example I have commented on, except for the guy with the slate. And I do know the owner of 491.

Didn't mean to make you pull the republican card. Sorry to be a contrarian or nay sayer. Not trying to hijack your thread. Just know I am not making crap up.

replied to STEEL
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The owner of 491 is doing the renovation of his own volition. The building is being brought back to a state that it should be in. You make is sound like he was unduly forced to do something beyond his means which is not true. From time to time a building of any type new or old will lose a tenant. That does not mean restoration is some kind of big disaster.

Money does not have to come out of thin air. If buy a building you should be prepared to invest the basic amount it takes to keep the building sound. That is what you SHOULD do. I paint my house regularly, I recently put a new roof on it, I recently put in a new furnace and I will soon be renovating one of the bath rooms. The money for these things does not come out of thin air but it is money that will protect my investment. According to you I should let the roof leak and then walk away form the building because "Money does not come out of thin air.

I really don't get your point.

491 is being renovated by the owner because he wants to have a high quality historic building that benefits himself and the city. You somehow turn that around to try and paint it as an example of why historic restoration is absurd.

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Steel>"If buy a building you should be prepared to invest the basic amount it takes to keep the building sound. That is what you SHOULD do."

Not necessarily always. If a property includes a building as well as the land it sits on, that doesn't mean the sometimes the land isn't the major (sometimes the only) reason the buyer wants it.

Unless the building has been named a historic landmark through legal means, why shouldn't owners have a right to decide building lifespans?

replied to STEEL
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They do not have the right and should not have the right to let it deteriorate to unsafe levels. They should not have the right to allow the property in general to cause surrounding property to decrease in value.

replied to whatever
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I apologize for the error. I was referring to 591 Delaware. That was the project I meant to refer to. Not 491. I do not have any first hand knowledge of that building.

So apply all I said to 591. Preservation, added costs, and now for the most part vacant.

And yes, they had a say in all aspects of the exterior facade.

I guess taking responsibility for my actions also may make me a Republican, so it must have been someone elses fault.

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no, fudging with numbers is what makes you a Republican...ba dump bump.

replied to LastManIn
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Actually the developer of that building took the job on because they wanted it saved. They also wanted the exterior saved as close to the original as possible. The entire interior and back side are is a 100% new building. The front and sides including the spectacular porch are all original except for the windows and cornice line. The owner lives on the top floor from my understanding. The building was 100% leased when it was completed and the major tenant only recently moved out. So again your comments hold no water. If this developer did not take an interest in saving this building it would currently now be the parking lot that many coveted.

replied to LastManIn
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Taking responsibility would make you Liberal, not Republican. Republicans left this country in ruin and have yet to acknowledge their mistakes.

replied to LastManIn
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Lastmanin> "There are empty buildings that underwent huge preservation directed renovations. One being 491 Delaware. It was an important shell and all the exterior treatments on the Delaware side had to be approved by the powers that be. Costs to do this were outrageous"

The "outrageous" costs can be recouped by federal or state historic tax credits. "The powers that be" require that work in local historic districts comply with historic guidelines to protect the integrity of the neighborhood. That leads to higher property values for the landlord and his neighbors.

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I understand why it's done, but all of that needs to be paid for to be completed. Tax credits in most development deals I have been involved with take years to be fulfilled. The projects still need to pay for the labor, supplies and fees. Unless contractors will work for future tax concessions on my building! That would be great!

I am sure the project at the Lafayette Hotel will come with tax credits, but those don't pay for the projects. They do entice developers, that's for sure.

replied to Armchair MBA
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German Shepherd...this building must be listed in the registry for historic buildings before it qualifies for tax credits, which it is not and never will be.

knock it down!

I just saw someone throw a brick through a car window in the EV to steal change...$$

replied to Armchair MBA
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JS and Steel, I didn't say anyone has a right to violate safety-related laws. You both seem to be reading things I didn't write.

What I asked was
whatever>"why shouldn't owners have a right to decide building lifespans?"

Laws against endangering the public should be enforced reasonably. But that's different from trying to force owners to keep their buildings from eventually becoming unusable or not practical to save. Unless it's an official historic landmark, why shouldn't demolition be a legal alternative to maintaining a building if the owner prefers some other use for the land?

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Demolition is a legal alternative. But many times people do not want to hear it.

It is a viscous circle. Owner let's building deteriorate, left with options. Sell, demo or fix to the wants of the preservation groups. If he fixes he may or may not get grants or tax deferments, but his businesses may get boycotted if he isn't careful in his decision making. If he abandons his mortgage obligations, the city may take the property over and then they assume the responsibility.

The list originally proposed may work. Who decides? What is the criteria?

I say screw all that and buy what you can afford. Invest in the preservation of Buffalo.

replied to whatever
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I don't think anyone says that they should not be allowed to tear down buildings based on current laws. I am saying that tear-downs rarely benefit the city and its citizens. These assets cannot be replaced and they have proven to be valuable economic tools in Buffalo and in other cities. Tearing them down is incredibly short sighted.

Also we restrict the use of private property to a great extent in many other ways so this idea that private property means you can do anything you want is a false premise..... Municipalities everyplace can and do put restrictions on land use. The irony is that land use restriction is often strongest and most limiting in the most conservative communities.

I do say that the city and its residents do not benefit from an owner who allows a building to degenerate and then uses that as an excuse for demolition. I also think that it would benefit the city and its residents to have more strict guidelines for demolition and replacement. I think the city should increase the size of its historic protection districts and it should enforce its codes.

By the way this building IS is a historic zone

replied to whatever
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Good point, the most restrictive zoning and land use rules are in conservative suburban communities. Some of these places restrict everything from color choices, lot sizes, home sizes, construction materials, etc. These communities tell you when you can cut your lawn, where you may park your car, and even whether you can put up a fence, deck, or have a vegetable garden. Funny how these anti tax right wingers are so comfortable having every aspect of their life controlled but complain about "big government".
All these rules are meant to keep these places white, rich, boring, bland, and most importantly to protect their precious property values. All we ask for in the city is that a property is maintained in a safe and reasonable condition.

replied to STEEL
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All communities can tell you what you can and cannot do to your own property, it is up to them to enforce it. Every town and or village and or city can restrict you from doing almost anything, and they all can cite you for not cutting your grass. Many cities do not have the resources to enforce these laws, but believe me, they are there.

And there are buildings that sit dormant in many of the small towns all over WNY. Look at all of the barns that are crumbling on a drive towards Lake Ontario or the southern tier. Buffalo and most of these other cities and town have bigger fish to fry. That's why I keep saying to put our money where our mouths are. Buy them up. Don't wait for a judge or council members or mother nature dictate what to do. And certainly don't wait for 6 commentors on a blog to act.

Please return my copy of "Atlas Shrugged", blackrocklifer. You should have finished it and learned something by now;)

replied to Blackrocklifer
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I am well aware of the fact that all communities have land use rules, I was expanding on STEEL's point that conservative and wealthier suburban communities are the most restrictive. My reference to lawn cutting should have been more clear, I meant the rules in some communities restricting the day and time when it is permitted to mow.

On the small towns, again I am well aware, I have often pointed out how cities and small towns have both suffered from sprawl and suburbanization here on BRO.

As for "put our money where our mouths are" no argument here, my rep is solid.

Atlas Shrugged? your kidding right? I read the Fountainhead when I was a kid, before I was enlightened by real life experience. Ayn Rand was a bigoted, homophobic, pill popping egotist that rejected humanity and community. Today she is an inspiration for the tea party.

replied to LastManIn
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Because your scenario seems only to apply to the city, would suburban communities accept buildings crumbling from neglect? Think of the outrage if investors from Buffalo let homes and buildings in Amherst or Orchard Park deteriorate until demolition was the only option. Why the double standard? Suburban investors have done this for decades here in Black Rock and the rest of Buffalo. Why do you feel these speculators should be give a pass?

replied to whatever
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Seems like the comments are out of order and jumbled, makes it tough to follow. Is BRO addressing this issue?

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