City July 26, 2010 10:30 PM

Goldman, Others Sue to Block Bass Pro

Goldman, Others Sue to Block Bass Pro

Led by Chippewa Street pioneer Mark Goldman, a group of Buffalo residents and taxpayers has brought a lawsuit to stop State money from subsidizing the proposed Bass Pro-centered development at the Erie Canal Harbor.  The suit was filed Monday in New York State Supreme Court by attorney Arthur J. Giacalone on behalf of Mr. Goldman, Scot D. Fisher, Bruce L. Fisher, Susan M. Davis, Stephen C. Halpern, and Elizabeth P. Stanton.  Defendants include Bass Pro Outdoor World, LLC, Empire State Development Corporation and its subsidiary Erie Canal Harbor Development Corporation, the New York State Power Authority and various other government entities.

The lawsuit claims that the $35 million subsidy offered to Bass Pro violates the prohibition in New York's Constitution against a gift or loan of state funds to a private enterprise.  It also argues that the State Power Authority has disregarded its own guidelines by offering a $105 million "industrial incentive award" to a project anchored by the proposed Bass Pro retail store.

Underscoring the unhealthy relationship between the various "economic development agencies," the lawsuit also contends that an impermissible conflict of interest existed when the Chairman of the State Economic Development Power Allocation Board, who is also a high-ranking official with the Empire State Development Corporation, voted to accelerate funding of the Canal Side project and transfer NYS Power Authority money to the entity that employs him.

Mark Goldman, proprietor of the legendary Calumet Art CafĂ© and author of books on Buffalo history, explains his involvement in the litigation: "We have initiated this lawsuit because we believe that the defendants, by offering public money to a private corporation, have acted in violation of the New York State Constitution.  We also believe that the efforts to give public funds to Bass Pro are a serious abuse of power that could, if allowed to stand, corrupt the democratic process.  We have taken this action because we care deeply about our community and how decisions regarding its well being are made.  It is clearly not in the best interests of our community when a small coterie decides, on its own and simply because it wants to, to give the public's money to a private entity."

Scot D. Fisher, president of Righteous Babe Records and the redeveloper of the Asbury Methodist Church with international recording artist Ani DiFranco, said, "We worked hard to help save the historic terminus of the Erie Canal.  If private investors want to invest their own money to create businesses near our harbor front, that's great -- but the thousands of people who signed petitions to preserve our heritage didn't sign on to public subsidies for private business."

Others joining the suite include Bruce L. Fisher, ArtVoice contributor and Director of the Center for Economic and Policy Studies at Buffalo State College; Stephen C. Halpern, a political science professor at SUNY at Buffalo, an author of books on civil rights and liberties, and a practicing lawyer; Susan M. Davis, Associate Professor of Economics at Buffalo State College; and, Elizabeth P. Stanton, professor of occupational therapy at D'Youville College.

Attorney Giacalone has built a career as the go-to NIMBY lawyer in WNY.  He has been retained by residents and others to fight a Tops market, a Town of Aurora Walmart, senior housing, a soccer field, Amherst's deer control efforts, Panos' expansion, Children's Hospital's helipad, expansion of the Lancaster airport, the Elmwood/Forest hotel project, a new elephant pen at the Buffalo Zoo, and others.

Giacalone also has previous experience along the waterfront.  In the late 1980's, Giacalone was retained by Western New York Regional Environmentalists and Concerned Homeowners to put a stop to the planned Pavillion project in Waterfront Village.  The $113 million proposal by Essex Investment Group would have seen a 12-story office, hotel and retail complex built on ten acres of land next to what is now Templeton Landing.  Giacalone's suit was rejected in 1990, but the project was done in by a crummy economy.

More:

Buffalo Pundit's take documenting Scot Fisher's involvement with Babeville and the public monies that project received, sans lawsuit.

ECHDC Chairman Jordan Levy isn't pleased, see Mark Sommer's story here.

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You mean there is going to be LAWSUIT stopping a developmental project from progressing in buffalo? I NEVER thought I'd see the day!!! WOW

Score: 1 ( 15 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

WTF????? THIS IS EXACTLY WHY "NOTHING' EVER GETS DONE HERE. So many old F'N LOSERS trying to stop every 'FREAKIN PROJECT FROM HAPPENING HERE'. Well GOLDMAN, FIND ME A F'N JOB THEN!!!!!!!

Score: 1 ( 23 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

The argument about the state constitution really feels like skating on thin ice to me. If a judge affirms that state subsidies for development are illegal gifts, then what does this mean for historic tax credits, low-rate loans, etc.? And certainly Scot Fisher and I imagine Mark Goldman as well have benefited from public funding of one sort or another in their redevelopment projects. This seems like a "be careful what you ask for" situation.

And I say this as someone who agrees with the overall position of those bringing this lawsuit.

Score: 1 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

A great day for the city. Stopping progress a great way to put Buffalo on the map. I think that we should take these taxpayer dollars and allocate them to where the money is really needed......where the people don't TURN DOWN HAND OUTS TO MAKE THE ENTIRE AREA BETTER. Why can't the citizens of this city that I want to believe in understand that any investment to this area at this point is a good one. We are past the point of choosing.

And yes I understand that it is "taxpayer dollars" but I rather we building a GD fishing lure store here then watch this lawsuit send the money to where people are willing to except these dollars. How is this lawsuit going to make this project look appealing to ANY business looking to come here besides Jim's steakout and Spot coffee.

Score: 2 ( 18 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

EVERYONE QUICK...WRITE DOWN THESE NAMES! We now have a great list of individuals who for the most part are some of the people responsible for nothing getting done EVER in this city!!! I am too tired to even post anything long at the moment to vent. U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E...

Score: -3 ( 21 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Complete nonsense. Goldman has done more for the revitalization of Buffalo that any impact Bass Pro would ever have had. Fisher has been a major local economic and cultural investor. Goldman has been suggesting for years for ECHDC to take a fraction of the subsidies and create a viable and vibrant district of LOCAL businesses at the harbor. He's been ignored for Bass Pro, which is about to Officially Fail anyways. And now you're blaming him for stopping progress? Are you kidding me??? The suits at ECHDC have never had to put risk on the line for the betterment of the city like Goldman has.

replied to Bison716
Score: 7 ( 21 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

HERE, LET HIM KNOW HOW YOU FEEL:

http://artgiacalonelaw.com/id17.html

Score: 3 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I think it's pretty funny. We endure ten years of courtship. Last week we have Higgins offer an ultimatum. Now we got this. I wonder if Mindy and Bob are regretting what they started. Cue the circus music. If it hadn't started playing nine years ago.

Score: 1 ( 3 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Goldman wants to stop Canal Side because he knows CS's entertainment district can potentially cripple the foot traffic on Chippewa.

Plain and Simple

Score: -1 ( 19 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

He's moved on to Allen...so I highly doubt that is the reason behind this lawsuit. But i am also realistic and understand that $$ has to be in the equation somewhere.

Goldman is a pretty reasonable and honest guy from what i know, and has always been friendly with Buffalo Rising, so i'd love to hear from him. Seems like the perfect outlet to tell his side of the story.

replied to 5to81ALLDAY
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Interesting post from Alan Bedenko on the hypocrisy of one of the plantiffs in this case

http://wnymedia.net/wnymedia/buffalopundit/2010/07/whats-good-for-the-goose-is-good-for-the-gander-mountain/

Score: 1 ( 7 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

When I saw the names...I was thinking the exact same thing? In principle, how could taxpayers money be good for Babeville and not the Harbor?

Score: 2 ( 4 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

It's very unlikely the courts will rule against the state politicians, but I'd like to see this lawsuit succeed and be a big setback for this kind of corporate welfare that benefits a select few private businesses.

The suit isn't trying to prevent Bass Pro from putting a store here. As I understand it, the suit is saying clear wording in the state constitution doesn't allow an essentially rent-free, tax-free store building to be constructed using public money.

Bass Pro is welcome to locate here using their own money.

Score: 7 ( 13 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Uh, I don't think anyone enjoys the idea of subsidizing companies to open shop, but it's an obvious necessity in Buffalo's case. Besides, your state taxes will be staying in your backyard - just think how everyone in NYC feels about paying taxes for welfare handouts to Buffalo. Not sure why you're complaining.

replied to whatever
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Necessity? Obviously it isn't. Most businesses in Buffalo aren't given use of free customized buildings funded by public $.

No matter how its supporters try to spin it - and regardless of what the courts decide about its legality under the state consitution - this extreme degree of corporate welfare is very unusual here.

replied to jag
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I agree that it's extreme, but I think it's also necessary if you want to develop the area. If there was another retailer out there that was interested in the project without subsidies, don't you think we would have heard about it by now? The fact is that it's a necessary public cost to spur private investment in the area. If you want to contend that developing the area isn't worth that cost, then that would make sense. I, personally, think it's a great place to develop a new residential/retail core that will hopefully succeed in luring young professionals and young families deeper into the city. But obviously it could just suck.

replied to whatever
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Bass Pro is a mistake from the get go, I say. Less than ten years down the road, if it's ever built in the first place, it will be an empty box: that's my prediction. I don't see it succeeding as a retail destination, any more than all the public money poured into the Hyatt over the years made that hotel a viable commercial project.

I would rather the public money be used to develop a street grid (maybe canal grid, too), put in utilities, divided up the land into building lots and sell them off individually (put design criteria into place to ensure an interesting neighborhood gets developed). Such a canal side district would be more organic, interesting and insulated from business cycles than a big box.

Score: 14 ( 22 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Bini,

Good to see you post again! I wholeheartedly agree with you. Parcel out the land, put in roads and utilities and support the growth of the area as an urban district, not just an attraction. Even better, make it an overlay district with design regulations that return the character of the historic canal district, though without the stringent requirements to make the buildings fake history. A low-rise, dense area similar to the historic canal district breeds success in my opinion and there really isn't an area remaining in Buffalo with that character except for Genesee gateway.

replied to biniszkiewicz
Score: 6 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Hi Nick and Bini, I think I'm missing a major component of your idea - how do you get people to build on the vacant parcels? Sounds like a great idea for some cities, but Buffalo isn't lacking shovel-ready sites so I don't really get how you expect the area to organically fill up with new builds. Wouldn't the overwhelming likelihood be that it'll just be a waste of infrastructure and never "organically" reach even medium density?

replied to nick
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I think interest would be high. The existing vacant parcels around town don't have this location or the scale necessary to create a neighborhood.

You want to live on the waterfront? Currently you have to buy into a development where everybody's box to your left and right are the same as yours and the neighborhood is divided very clearly between commercial and residential.

This site would offer individuality. The location very connected to downtown as well as being on the water, and offers the possibility of mixed use (let's say you're a lawyer and want to live over the office, for example). It would be a whole new neighborhood, which can be more appealing to buyers than patchwork development here and there.

replied to jag
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I'd rather see that so called 'MALL' on the waterfront than NOTHING AT ALL as stated by some jerk on Ch. 2 news tonight. Has these people EVER BEEN DOWNTOWN in the last 20 years. WE HAVE NO RETAIL DOWNTOWN RIGHT NOW....Why not spend money to LURE RETAIL HERE???????? WE NEED IT!!!!!!

Score: -10 ( 22 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

mark goldman was downtown, with his own money, before anyone on this blog was.

replied to Lego1981
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And he is trying to keep it that way...... Good for you to support him. The rich never want someone with more money pushing them around in ten years.....dont get it though do you???

replied to grad94
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A smart Judge will simply throw this suit out.
How ridiculous.
There was a time for lawsuits, but that time has come and gone.
The suit will cost taxpayers more money in addition to the funds already slated for the project.
Keep in mind that much of the money has been spent and you wont get it back. The suit will just spend even more money, and could result in a situation similar to the famous hole in the ground left in Niagara Falls during the aquarium project.
Shame on these 'Anti' development people.
If you don't like Buffalo, just leave, don't stay and make it worse. We should post any property interests that these folks filing the suit have and boycott and protest at the storefronts of their businesses - now!!

Score: -5 ( 19 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Is'nt it funny how these people NOW want to sue and stop this from happening. What's next, will they sue the people who are building the new Federal Court House, next?

replied to DPH
Score: -8 ( 18 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Nice arrogant demand:
DPH>"If you don't like Buffalo, just leave, don't stay and make it worse."

You're saying everyone who opposes your political viewpoint about funding Bass Pro doesn't like Buffalo and should just move away? The Larry Quinn side of this argument has a monopoly on liking Buffalo and living here? Great.

I'd like to see a real poll of how many in Buffalo oppose funding Bass Pro. I'd bet is a significant portion - maybe even a majoriy - which DPH says should all leave - lol!

replied to DPH
Score: 3 ( 9 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment


We don't need Bass Pro. Spend the money and get the bicycle museum down there, a nice park, wintergarden, a theatre, etc and that will be enough.

It's going to be hard to get retail to work down there. The taxpayers are going to be out a lot of money when Bass Pro folds.

Score: 3 ( 17 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Many of the plaintiffs (Babville, Genesee Gateway) have sought/accepted public subsidies of one kind or another via tax incentives and city/county subsidies--and their businesses didn't pay rent back to the city/county to offset those public dollars. Bass Pro is getting public dollars but atleast they are going to pay rent back to ECHDC on the property each year to the tune of 700Thous (or percentage of sales). If BP closes, no big deal. The bldg. is there developed for the next retailer/user. It's not like AM&A, Bergers, Hens & Kelly bldgs didn't get reused.

Score: 0 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I don't believe Fisher is involved with Genesee Gateway. He owns or owned properties adjacent to the project, but I think that's it.

Bass Pro is paying $1 in rent per year. What a kickback! The $700K or whatever is for maintenance of the property - which will be required due to their use.

Redeveloping an older department store like AM&A's and redeveloping one GIANT open indoor space are two completely different animals. If you want to redevelop the Bass Pro building into residential like Berger's that you referenced, you would essentially have to build a completely new building on the interior.

replied to Tahooter
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i'm pretty sure he sold his properties to doug swift & co.

replied to townline
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I am in favor of the City pulling the $10MM from the project and allocating it among the 9 Council Districts in the City. Look at the condition Allen Street is in...deplorable from an infrastructure perspective...totally happening form the cultural, social and restaurant scene.

How this $35MM was offered to Bass Pro shows how decisions get made about where to spend public dollars. Money goes where money and influence is. So the folks who can host the fundraisers and.or write teh beg checks have the influence with the political establishment which allocates funds.

Unfortunately lawsuits are the means for those of us without the connections to influence the decision making process. Whether or not it works is yet to be seen. I concur that most of us think it is an eternal waste of money to subsidize Bass Pro...while existing neighborhoods and businesses struggle to keep the doors open because the roads and sidewalk are falling apart in front of their business which hires local folks and pays taxes.

Let's not forget, the $35MM is our money, not Jordy's or the Rich's.

Score: 4 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

I can see it now, Canal Side parking lot Park at the historic Erie canal terminus for Sabres games! Once again another failed project in Bflo...

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Just hurry up and let them open so they can hurry up and fold. Maybe enough people will be infuriated over the epic collapse that Quinn will be lynched and run out of town. The day he is no longer associated with the Sabres will be a good day.

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Public money must not be used for private gain. Pure and simple. And yet it happens, all the time. Connected jerks pull strings and the rest of us have money taken from our pockets and handed to them. Government for the people, yay!

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The people filing this lawsuit are not "anti-Buffalo" Some of them have done good things here and care about the city. Maybe, like me, they are just tired of BassPro sniffing at our generous contribution as if it were dog poo and dragging their heels about building a store here, a store that gets less "exciting" with every year and every store built in other cities close by. Enough.

Score: 10 ( 16 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

OH MY LORD!
This is ridiculous.

The money and time that is wasted on lawsuits in this city would be enough to develop the entire east coast waterfront.

I read these story's and think to myself, why am I still here?

ENOUGH!

Score: -2 ( 10 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

And people wonder and question why Bass Pro hasn't signed the lease agreement yet.

A common council that wants them to pay 17 year olds that stock shelves a livable wage and now this.

This city can't get out of it's own way.

Score: -1 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Orrrrrrrrrr..... Maybe we shouldn't be subsidizing $35,000,000 directly and an additional $100,000,000 in infrastructure support to a single store that employs 17-year-olds that stock shelves?!

replied to rb09
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SO you would rather have no jobs for 17 year-olds then? Right? Sounds like a great Idea. How about one job for a parking attendant??

replied to townline
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ummmmmmm, well probably not at the cost of over $100 million?! But ya know, whats the difference... progress is progress, right? How dare anyone have a problem with any of it. Just ask those people who built UB North...

replied to Urban Cowboy
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You have to plant a seed in order for prosperity. Maybe if it was successful the 100 million might turn into 1000 jobs in 10 years, but we will probably never know. Unfortunately I'm starting to see why Buffalo is the way it is.

If they were going to build a downtown bills stadium everyone on here would support it, it would be fully founded by taxpayers, and it would be for the benefit of a private corporation. BIG PICTURE PEOPLE!

replied to townline
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Football Stadium - Probably the last thing I would support to be developed in the city...

replied to Urban Cowboy
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I just want to see something happen. I know that the BP project is hit or miss. I know that the Canal Side project might become the Main Street Mall. But if nothing happens, if no one tries, why should I or anyone that wants to see and be part of progress stay and watch this. I know elmwood and allentown are growing but unless we get corporate investment, its never going to change the economic footprint of Buffalo.

In addition, if anyone on here thinks that a local BUSINESS man would file a lawsuit because he doesn't think that funding of a project within three square miles of his businesses is legal, then they are not seeing correctly. Business men/women do not waist money paying a lawyer unless they have a personal monetary interest in the area. This is the same approach the buffalo "elite" used to stop the metro rail from expanding into the suburbs.

In the end, no matter what the reason, a lawsuit against the very people trying to do something in the area is just wrong and is doing everyone, in every district, harm. You should never bite the hand that feeds you when you have not been getting fed for 40 years!

replied to townline
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That's a horrible argument. Buffalo has been allowing things to happen for years. The problem is that they've been advocating all the wrong things. That's how we ended up with Main Place Mall, the current Convention Center, deletion of the radial street grid, a new highway on our waterfront, sprawl, etc. etc. etc...

At some point, we need to raise our standards and begin to do things right, or else this will be a place where nobody wants to live.

replied to Urban Cowboy
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not everyone has a boner for a downtown stadium. somewhere in the bro archives is an article, i can't remember by who, that shows the footprint of rich stadium overlaid on downtown. it would require the destruction of a huge chunk of a viable and in some places thriving urban landscape. no thanks.

replied to Urban Cowboy
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The ONLY role for government in this project is to set up the infrastructure, which is already underway and looking pretty sweet (I commute by it - IN MY CAR (*gasp*) every day).

Get the grid set up, hook it up with high speed interweb-pipes; hell, blow cash on green energy stuff down there if you want to. But get off our knees begging for a silly "anchor" tenant that'll really just weigh us down like a boat anchor, really...

Score: 6 ( 8 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

The ECHDC should have been actively seeking other tenants to anchor the project. Bass Pro knows ECHDC has no other options, so of course their going to milk them for the most they can get. A strong anchor is vital to attracting other businesses and regional customers. Without a strong anchor, you've got a cluster of small stores with a weak draw for those outside the city. Main Place Mall, anyone?

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Another Lawsuit. LOL

Add this to the pile. Now there is the skeleton of what could be a world class casino/hotel tower, and a giant hole in the ground. Those look so much better than modern, bustling businesses. I can see where many people would go down there to visit an unfinished building and then they can eat lunch in the giant hole where Bass Pro was going to be. BRILLIANT!

I guess Buffalo IS and always will be a LAME DUCK.

Score: -5 ( 11 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Loud noises!

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It is evident that Bass Pro is not interested in Buffalo. Prime location for one of their stores and we have to give them $35M?? This money could of been better spent remediating one of the many very large brownfields around the perimeter of downtown, replacing and upgrading intrastructure, and preparing large shovel ready sites for LARGE scale development. Case in point both the Gieco and Yahoo data centers belonged in downtown Buffalo not out in the styx or in Lockport. I often wonder why these companies made a decesion not to locate in/near downtown Buffalo. Could it be due to the city not investing enough in the above mentioned sites so a corporation could come in a build a brand new 250K sq ft (Geico) facility with all the necessary supporting infrastructure in place.
My peronsal opinion is that you could use some of this $35M to create a beautiful plaza at Canal Side. Plenty of green space, trees, seating alcoves, benches, and on a portion of the Aud site a small amphitheater for concerts and other entertainment. Allow various local vendors ( cafes, restaurants, etc. ) to set up shop at designated locations within the plaza and you now have an inviting destination for people. Once this area is completed you now have a perfect place for people to convene after events at HSBC as well.
Again my personal opinion is use some of this money for a the above mentioned but the majority should be used for creating the proper environment for bringing business into downtown, not a handout to BP.

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orlanmon posts: "Case in point both the Gieco and Yahoo data centers belonged in downtown Buffalo not out in the styx or in Lockport. I often wonder why these companies made a decesion not to locate in/near downtown Buffalo."

You wonder?
Gieco and Yahoo wanted nothing to do with locating in downtown Buffalo. Even if there was large shovel ready sites for them.
Too much red tape, too much politics, Too many lawsuits hindering development, too many incompetent so called leaders.

replied to orlanmon
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rb09 - Sadly I may agree with you on that..

replied to rb09
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I don't see how this is holding anything up as Bass Pro hasn't signed any binding agreement yet. If this uncovers or brings to light anything that happened that was underhanded I think this is a good thing. Right now Bass Pro isn't doing anything so why not look deeper?

replied to orlanmon
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Chris, the lawsuit is a terrible thing.
People forget that the other tenants, and there are several significant ones, are counting on BP as the anchor to kick this thing off. If the suit stalls anything in anyway, the others go away. People just don't see the big picture and very small minded, but understandable since most replies here have no development experience.
The suit is bad. Hopefully it is thrown out quickly.
Did anyone file suit when the Sabres received money for the new arena? Does anyone file suit against the Bills for using county facilities? Does anyone sue Geicko for using taxpayer funds for their building? Does anyone sue other developers for using tax moneys for their projects, which result in private gains?
There's plenty of precedent here to have this silly suit thrown out quickly.

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DPH - EXACTLY.


replied to DPH
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All I'm saying is that Bass Pro is doing nothing right now. 14 days or no, there is still nothing binding them to do anything. If the suit gets tossed it gets tossed, if it brings to light something so be it.

My point is that until bass pro steps up to the plate nothing is going to happen anyways, we might as well take a closer look at things.

replied to DPH
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while I half agree with Goldman & Co... our tax dollars built a new Yankee Stadium. We might as well get something (albeit on a much smaller scale) for downtown Buffalo as well.

Score: 3 ( 5 votes ) Vote up Vote down Report this comment

Exactly. I can't believe there are people out there turning their noses up at development. If you have a better use of the money, then great! Contact your local reps and feed them the ideas. Otherwise, stop being arrogant enough to think Buffalo can't benefit from the state's investment in Buffalo. You think the state's doing this out of the goodness of their heart? NO, THEY WANT DOWNTOWN BUFFALO TO GET OFF IT'S FINANCIAL ASS AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE STATE'S COFFERS. Jesus, let them help Buffalo already.

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jag>"You think the state's doing this out of the goodness of their heart? NO, THEY WANT DOWNTOWN BUFFALO TO GET OFF IT'S FINANCIAL ASS AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE STATE'S COFFERS. Jesus, let them help Buffalo already."

If Bass Pro happens, the benefits are much more political (politician resumes) and psychological (morale, civic pride), than economic.

Consumer spending at Bass Pro or other Canalside retailers will be almost entirely spending that would have happened otherwise in WNY and NYS anyway. That means sales tax shoppers pay and income tax employee pay won't add to the state's coffers because it would have happened here regardless, just in different stores.

Things like retail and restaurants aren't real growth in ways non-retail companies are whose products or services are sold elsewhere (for example New Era, Rich Products, Labatt, Geico, Yahoo).

replied to jag
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I don't really understand your argument...you're saying that creating jobs and a retail/residential core won't alter the economic landscape of Buffalo? Yes, your claim would be true is no one from outside of the city came to spend money or no one from outside of the city moved into the new apartments/condos and if everyone in Buffalo already had a job and if the economic investment in the area spurred no additional private investment. That's an awfully pessimistic and factually unsupportable viewpoint to think that this will attract zero people to downtown buffalo and create zero jobs and zero additional investment. I think we both hope you're entirely wrong.

Buffalo's stopped the population bleed - it's time to attract new life to the city. This is exactly the type of area the city needs to get 20somethings into downtown and keep them there beyond graduation. Increase the number of educated young people interested in the city and you increase the skill level of the employee pool, attract higher paying jobs to the area, stimulate the local economy, and organically grow into surrounding areas of the city.

replied to whatever
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jag>"you're saying that creating jobs and a retail/residential core won't alter the economic landscape of Buffalo? "

jag, adding Bass Pro will be nice for customers who like the store and, at least at first, it will make some feel good in a civic morale way. No argument there.

But about economy claims - there's no reason to think it will grow the total retail spending among all stores enough to grow the state's and area's total retail jobs or grow the state's tax revenue coffers as your previous comment said is intended. It will move some spending, jobs, and tax revenue that would happen otherwise at other stores.

Just like the new Walmart in Lancaster won't grow the state's or area's retail jobs even if 300 are hired. That was mentioned again last week by a economist:
http://www.buffalonews.com/city/article78661.ece
"...Palumbo said the developments won't all have the same impact on the local economy.
Shoppers won't buy more groceries just because Walmart opened a new store in Lancaster, the economist said.
They'll just shop at this Walmart instead of another grocery store in the area, he added. "Any net growth over time will probably be offset by a reduction in employment at other places," Palumbo said. ..."

Same idea as when govt helps a few restaurants (Gigi's, One Sunset, Empire Grill, Chefs...). Customers and spending among all restaurants stays the same. Politicians can get public credit for restaurants they help using everyone's $, meanwhile few people hear about others that lost customers to subsidized ones.

It's very different when non-retail businesses move or expand here that produce goods or services for customers elsewhere. That brings wealth to the area and can be real growth of jobs, income, tax revenue. That can also result in more stores wanting to be here, more jobs in retail, restaurants, etc. - all as total customer spending grows due to growth in non-retail jobs and incomes.

replied to jag
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jag>"Increase the number of educated young people interested in the city and you increase the skill level of the employee pool, attract higher paying jobs to the area, stimulate the local economy"

You and I disagree whether Bass Pro will grow the number of young people choosing Buffalo, or the skill level of the employee pool for attracting higher paying jobs to the area. I don't think Bass Pro (or any waterfront retail) will do any of those in a real way.

What would make more young people interested in Buffalo depends mostly on career opportunities. Those depend on non-retail companies wanting to move here or expand here. I think that's a whole different set of issues.

replied to jag
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I'm not talking specifically about bass pro. I hate bass pro. But I do think the waterfront development could do a lot to attract young people to Buffalo. Buffalo has a lot of great things, but a lot of those things revolve around it's age. Speaking as a 20something, most of us don't want to buy a 100 year old home. A fresh, new build core of retail and condos would be eaten up by the market very very quickly. I think there's a built up potential there, but maybe I'm wrong. Ultimately it comes down to whether Buffalo is still a dying city. If it is, then sure, most of the money and people brought into downtown will just be from canibalization of other areas in the city. I don't think that's the case.

replied to whatever
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jag, I don't have any reason to hate Bass Pro, but they're the co in question here. The issues would be the same if our politicians were trying to offer the same millions in public gifts to __ (fill in any store instead of Bass Pro).


jag>"A fresh, new build core of retail and condos would be eaten up by the market very very quickly."

I don't see why condos should need to depend on publicly-subsidized presence of a retailer. Waterfront condo projects that already happened here didn't need to. And maybe some retail could succeed around there - who knows? But neither residential nor retail should be public spending, especially when there's so many other real public needs.

If you're correct about market demand - that retail and condos would be eaten up "very very quickly" - then the private sector should be allowed to try filling those demands you see. Politicians should fully cooperate.

It sounds fine to me if some of this land in question is used for privately-funded condos or other residential that would pay regular tax rates (or under the same conditions - retail, office, food, drink, etc.)

replied to jag
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Whatever,

Public funding is successfully used in this manor all over the county. I currently live in downtown Silver Spring, MD - one of many examples of what a $100 million can do. $100 million public investment has brought over $2 BILLION of private investment to the city in under a decade and 10,000 jobs (probably more, but I can think of 10,000 off the top of my head). Yes, you're reading that right. Check us out, e.g. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/13/realestate/commercial/13silver.html?_r=1 The article's a few years old and was only just the begining.

Buffalo doesn't have to be a stagnant "has been" city. Look around and you'll see examples of how to attract new business and new blood to the city. They all involve a public commitment to revitalization, tax dollars included.

replied to whatever
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Jag: The article is great and it sounds like Silver Spring is indeed finding a great second act. Kudos to them. And pertinently, it is an example of public money sparking genuine and significant private development. Still, I'm not sold.

First, a nit to pick: the article references $187m in county money alone (as opposed to the $100m in total public money you state) and I'm wondering if state or federal funds augmented this county expenditure. I wonder what the real level of public investment was.

Second, I'm not sure how much of this example translates to our situation. Silver Spring is described as very recently having had nothing to attract people after offices closed, like a ghost town. This mall they created sparked the draw. But that's not exactly our situation. We have the theater district and Chippewa and Allentown, we bring in people with summer concert series. There is new residential and office space being added to the market on an ongoing basis. It's not like nothing has been going right here (as it sounds was Silver Spring's case prior to this mall). And Silver Spring featured nearby companies they could attract to their new urban core. Washington has been a growing area. But we've had a competitive office core for quite a while and there are relatively few big fish to attract.

Third: Is Bass Pro the key which will keep people downtown after office hours? Suburbanites will come down after their day is over because of BP? I'm skeptical. As for the other attractions (restaurants, bars), I think these could be very attractive (particularly in some authentic feeling canal district). But I don't see direct subsidies to individual businesses as necessary or appropriate to create that kind of neighborhood. And I don't see BP as being a good fit in that small neighborhood (it's a big puzzle piece in a pretty small geographic puzzle--outsized, imo).

replied to jag
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jag, I don't know how much direct subsidy to retailers Silver Spring gave away - if any.

This http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/20/AR2007062002354.html
says "County tax dollars accounted for $100 million of the $400 million it took to transform the area."
So that's 25% public, 75% private - and it doesn't say what the public portion was spent on. Maybe those public $ weren't spent for retailers.

Other cities around Silver Spring had very good growth in population and income during the past 10-20 years. It's within 10 miles of D.C. and Bethesda, around 20 miles from Arlington, etc.

So even if some direct subsidies happened, perhaps a good argument could be made that their rebound was much more dependent on nearby long term demographic trends and would've happened even without retailer subsidies - thanks to the region's sprawl.

replied to jag
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Hi Whatever,
Yeah, some of the 100 mil was spent specifically on retail subsidies. Actually, right now there's currently a debate about a music venue being built by Live Nation in an old Hecht's building that's been vacant for a generation. It's getting about 6 million in public subsidies to renovate and free rent. A competing venue in DC has sued because of the state's interference. It's so exactly like this situation (though obviously smaller numbers) that it makes me laugh.

Yeah, Silver Spring is within 10 miles of some rich places, but it's much closer to very very poor areas (Wheaton, Glenmont, and PG County). I'd say that the ability to spend 100 million was thanks to the richer areas of the county, but it's success was very nearly right out of the dark. Ultimately, all I've been trying to say is that spending some public money to subsidize the creation of a new core can succeed. It's entirely reasonable in my mind to think these aren't the right circumstances or the right area to try and create a critical mass of people, but the idea of using public funds to try and achieve that critical mass should NOT be automatically discredited.

replied to whatever
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Why would we want YAHOO to move downtown? From my understanding their building is just a huge bank of computers. The modern day telephone switching station. A dead block. Who wants that?

replied to whatever
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Chris, yes, the buildings Yahoo is constructing in Lockport to meet their needs/demands aren't at all what urbanists would want to see downtown. I was only disagreeing with somebody's claim that presence of a Bass Pro would have made them and Geico seriouly consider downtown.

replied to Chris
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The best move will be for BP to just say we are not coming so hopefully the suit does not impede the progress of just building the Canal Side project. I just hope three years doesn't go by and there is a nice grassy field in front of the HSBC tower.

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a. bass pro
b. vacant grassy lot

are not the only possible options. scroll up and read bini's take. he's right.

replied to Urban Cowboy
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EVERY project in Buffalo someone has to sue. It gets tiresome and it the reason nothing gets done here and why businesses don't want to come to Buffalo.

I don't want Bass Pro because I know I will never shop there. The entire Galleria new wing should have been placed on the waterfront. There are still plenty of stores and restuarants that Buffalo is missing that many more people would enjoy than Bass Pro. Build a mall there like Baltimore has on their waterfront. Get stores and restaurants not found at Galleria or Boulevard and people will come much more than Bass Pro.

What does Buffalo have to do to get stores Ikea or H&M...or Whole Foods or Trader Joes...several off the top of my head not found in WNY.

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I'm so so so, so very confused I can't even write something sinister. Wait, I'm trying. Can't. Still too confused.

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this is correct, exactly why nothing will ever get done or built in the city. Goldman........get a frekin life, i will start a face book page, do whatever to boycott everything u own. Since he has no life and sues to block jobs we should boycott his Calumet Art Cafe. Put thye word out to put his crapy business under and see how he likes it. Dumb ass Goldman

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Allen street hardware cafe is a dump Goldman, maby we should sue you so that area gets fixed up.

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I don't know about that. You must be a Wild Wings fan. Or Subzero? Either way, I think you need to step back and take a breath. Your anger over this matter is causing you to sound like Brick Tamlin.

replied to ccbuffalo
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The chain reactions and side impacts of this lawsuit are going to break down other contributions/investments into the region- which will slam on the breaks to the rehabilitation of many projects. I could understand the blocking and lawsuit against the buffalo casino- for obvious reasons. I can see the issue they're trying to prevent; it's just sad that an entire project could be in jeopardy, especially after Higgins wrote his letter. I would love more than anything to move back into Buffalo, but scenarios like this are not enticing the prospect of many "formers" to move back.

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folks are implying that filing suit is everyone's favorite recreational activity around here. since my memory is far from perfect, please help me start a list. what are all these suits that everyone is referring to?

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grad94, the above story lists some of the lawsuits that have been filed in the WNY area to stop development. Re-read this paragraph, "Attorney Giacalone has built a career as the go-to NIMBY lawyer in WNY. He has been retained by residents and others to fight a Tops market, a Town of Aurora Walmart, senior housing, a soccer field, Amherst's deer control efforts, Panos' expansion, Children's Hospital's helipad, expansion of the Lancaster airport, the Elmwood/Forest hotel project, a new elephant pen at the Buffalo Zoo, and others."

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thank you.

so which of those suits occurred in buffalo in the last, say, 5 years? maybe the elmwood hotel in 2007?

pano's was back in 2006, and keep in mind that nobody sued pano, pano sued us - the city of buffalo - after his demo permit was denied. if giacalone represented pano, then he hardly limits his trade to the nimby crowd.

okay, so looking just at the city of buffalo in the last 5 years, what are all these suits i keep hearing about?

replied to Walker716
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Bini's comment makes the most sense, use those dollars to create a traditional street grid and canal system. Sell lots that could accommodate small to medium size local business establishments. Build it densely and on a human scale to encourage visitors to walk around and explore the area. The addition of boaters and even canoes and kayaks would bring more activity and life to the area. We need to enable our own, not hand over our tax dollars to a corporate entity with no respect for or commitment to our city.

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I would like the record to reflect that Blackrocklifer has posted a comment that didn't connect the article to the plight of the poor. It didn't blame the suburbs, the rich, or big business for all that is wrong with Buffalo.

There is hope after all!

replied to Blackrocklifer
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Baltimore(via Wikipedia): Harborplace is a festival marketplace in Baltimore, Maryland, that opened in 1980 as a centerpiece of the revival of downtown Baltimore. As its name suggests, it is located on the Inner Harbor......Local merchants are complemented by national retailers and restaurants, such as The Cheesecake Factory, Johnny Rockets, Five Guys, Ann Taylor, Sunglass Hut, Banana Republic, Gap, Swatch, Victoria's Secret, Bath & Body Works, bebe, Fire & Ice, Starbucks, Brooks Brothers, Urban Outfitters, Uno Chicago Grill, and Swarovski.

It will never work if there isn't an sort of National Chains. Something has to get people to go down there for more than nic-nacs, cups of coffee, and fast food. Baltimore's inner should be a model for resurrecting our harbor. Although, I wish the plans ten years ago included some sort of "main attraction" like a museum or aquarium.

Again, It will never be anything without a main attraction. Something has to draw #'s or else everything that will be built will be vacant.

replied to Blackrocklifer
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As for the attacks on Mark Goldman, I know him to be an advocate for Buffalo. He truly wants to see our city thrive and prosper. This isn't about personal gain but the desire to stop another misguided and expensive blunder.

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I am no fan of Bass Pro, but these people are obstructionists, plain and simple. I know several of them personally and if a developer says "jump", they say, "which court?" They (separately or together) have obstructed development across this city and have decried using public money for development, ironic considering that most of them are on the state payroll and have no reservations about taking money in that way. The comments about Scot are spot on: what a hypocrite! State money is Ok when it's going in to his pocket and paying for his project but not others? Give me a break. I hope the case is thrown out on its ear and that these obstructionists move to some other city.

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modernist architect, mark goldman -is- a developer. he single-handedly brought about the revitalization of chippewa street without any massive public investment.

here we have starting us in the face a model of successful development using private dollars, while none of the massive projects that relied on public dollars lived up to their promises, to put it mildly. (i refer to the convention center, ballpark, hockey arena, hyatt hotel, and cheap parking everywhere. need i go on?)

yet in spite of the evidence from chippewa street, elmwood avenue, hertel, allentown, etc., we persist in believing that urban revitalization cannot occur without massive public expenditures to create oversized, single-use 'anchor' attractions.

bini's right. restore the street grid, put in the utilities, parcel out the land, establish the design guidelines, and let a host of private investors have at it.

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THIS IS THE REALITY. IF BASS PRO DOES NOT SIGN, CANAL-SIDE WILL NEVER BE CANAL-SIDE. It will be La Salle Park with a boating dock, 2 restaurants, 2 bars, and a Spot Coffee. If Bass Pro does show up (in other words... IF WE GET OUT THE DAM WAY!!!) then we WILL have investors take more than a second look locating big business in Buffalo's Downtown core and not just in our waterfront. I would almost guarantee you that if Canal-side already existed with Bass Pro as AN ANCOR then the Gieco's and Yahoo's out there would have at least considered downtown a viable option. We must not just make the inner harbor a pretty space for attending concerts and laying on the grass, we must create a economic engine to spur development. This is what cities do. Real cities understand this. Why are we the ones that always seem to turn the cheek? I love Buffalo. Anyone that knows me, knows this. Let's make Buffalo great again. Let us be known as not only a great place to live and raise our children, but a great place to work and play. Yes, roads need fixing, yes there's neighborhoods that need to be addressed, yes the list can go on, and on for what needs to be done. But... If we don't have the economic fire power to spend on our city than we are living in a continuous circle of nowhere. With little money for improvement and little to show for it. THIS IS OUR CHANCE TO CHANGE! What happens if we fix Allentown's streets? Will more businesses come? Maybe... or maybe we will have nice streets on Allentown and foot traffic would look great in front of Jim's Steakout for the next 2 years until we have to spend money to fix them again. I have no problem with this if we are generating millions yearly and gaining jobs and pumping in city income along with it, but if we are going to blow 35 million and spread it out to our city for mowing our parks, putting up new lights and signs, and fixing pot holes, then what happens next year when we have 2-3 million to spend? Let's put up Bass Pro Outdoor World/ Aquarium and you'll see who pops up (H&M, Boarders, Starbucks, L.L. Bean, Apple, etc.) mix that up with our great home grown businesses and now you have money all year-round. Tourists, Canadian shoppers, outdoor enthusiasts from our rural areas, local athletes actually shopping in downtown and not in McKinley or Galleria Mall. This is what happens. This is what city's do. They find a way to make money. Museums are great, parks are great, but high end retail is what brings us cash into our city not an amphitheater. There's always room for that after the fact! PLEASE... JUST LET THEM BUILD!!!!!!!

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You have a point, but except with the exception of Apple you have not named one high-end retailer.

replied to Bison716
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Bison716>" I would almost guarantee you that if Canal-side already existed with Bass Pro as AN ANCOR then the Gieco's and Yahoo's out there would have at least considered downtown a viable option."

Huh? Almost guarantee?

Geico and Yahoo chose sites in Amherst and Lockport, respectively, that have no retail nearby - anchor or otherwise. We can agree to disagree about how smart the Bass Pro subsidy is, but I don't see any basis in reality for claiming Bass Pro would have attracted Geico and Yahoo to downtown. That sounds like deeper b.s. than even Quinn or Levy would attempt.

Geico's and Yahoo's site selection criteria were both very inflexible, specific to their business models, and nothing a nearby retailer would have affected in a positive way.

Here's where Geico is
http://tinyurl.com/geico-amherst-satellite-map

Quite a vibrant setting they chose, huh?

replied to Bison716
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oh my God, seriously? God FORBID anything positive actually happens in Buffalo, the people here will MAKE SURE that never happens. Goldman just doesn't want Chippewa to go downhill if Canalside booms. The others are clueless lemmings. LET SOMETHING HAPPEN. You fought the casino and now we have a nice mess of steel sitting downtown. Great job!! Good thing we don't have a huge, attractive building bustling with activity there instead.

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steve said > goldman doesn't want chippewa street to go downhill if canalside booms.

thank you, steve, that's an unintentionally revealing observation.

now please explain why we should be ecstatic at the prospect of our tax dollars being used to undermine one of our most successful commercial districts, one that has attracted substantial private investment.

if i was an investor looking at buffalo, i wouldn't be scared off by a lawsuit against one retailer, i'd be scared off by the prospect of getting wiped out by lavish government subsidies to my competitors.

replied to Steve
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Why not bankroll the Senecas and give them a casino/smokeshop/ gas mall on the property?
Make a "Vice Mall" theme to the whole area... I'll bet that they'd even bankroll it themselves.

Bass Pro is bulllshit. You might as well throw the money in the river and watch it flow downstream and over the falls.

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Bison716 and Modernist Architect are right on.
Whatever, you are quite misinformed about EVERYTHING. I can't find any one of your statements to hold any water, but that's ok, I respect the freedom of speech, and respect your passion for the project, but wish you were more educated and experienced about projects like this, you clearly are not.
Anyway, stay tuned for the next big headline, where everyone will respond to the signing of BP and the suit is tossed out (as is should be).
Oh, for the record, I'm not for public money on any project necessarily. My only beef with this suit is that it is political, and not about the money. This money was slated for this project years ago, and a suit now is costing taxpayers more money than they imagine. (and Gieco went to amherst for parking reasons, (i know for fact, i was in the room, parking which Canalside will have plenty of).
Also, do the people filing suit realize who they are suing? They are going to awake a sleeping Giant, one who will destroy everything they have and stand for. This will be a good one to watch for sure. He's suing the biggest most important developers the WNY region has ever known. These developers have many millions of their own PRIVATE money at stake in the BP project. If Goldman was smart, he clearly isnt, he would withdraw this suit before he gets embarrassed greatly. Enjoy the show.

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I guarantee that I could walk into Buffalo tomorrow and say to you people "I am bringing my company of over 50,000 high paying advanced jobs to the region" and you idiots would not want them. The buildings would either "affect the migration paths of birds" or not create enough "livable wage jobs" or some other stupid and useless idiocyism. Buffalo acts like it has thousands of companies throwing themselves at it trying to get it. THERE ARE NO ECONOMIC REASONS TO MOVE A COMPANY TO BUFFALO. When and if some hippie-related company does decide to take a chance there, the city should WELCOME it with open arms. Give the company tax breaks for 20 years. Do not tax the owners who were brave (and probably dumb) enough to take the chance. The hippies on Elmwood are trying to block everything that comes their way, and eventually will run the rest of the businesses out. This will hinder your growth and your real advancement. Buffaloians still savor over $40,000/yr jobs. "That's a good pay" your friend or neighbor will say. $40k/yr jobs were good when your parents started. Buffalo will continue to be in this $40k trap until:

1. The Old Guard in politics is removed and politicians act on benefit for the city and not for their party/selves.
2. Unions are ran out of the city.
3. Taxes drop to Sunshine state levels.

Obviously, none of the 3 are going to happen anytime soon. Until then, enjoy your spot coffees and $40k jobs because no change will EVER happen.

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The "hippies on Elmwood" and other areas are responsible for most of the positive developement in the past 30 years. They are the entrepreneurs and residents investing their own money and energy in our neighborhoods. They are the people that have restored much of our housing stock as well as creating the beautiful gardens and greenspaces that make our city more livable and attractive. They are committed to Buffalo and willing to put their heart and soul into the effort even when the ROI is not always positive. You should thank these "hippies", they have contributed the most to improving Buffalo.

replied to dloarmani
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Well said. I understand that this forum is an extreme collection of opinions from both sides, but common on people. We are probably in the top three most unappealing major city's in the nation to big businesses, successful intelligent well-educated people, and also middle class families. There is no glimmer of hope. Sry, but Elmwood, allen, and chip, while they may be awesome new local bright spots, are never going to bring prosperity to this city. The Canal Side project, if completed in its entirety, may have sparked a new era for Buffalo.

And as far as Canal Side injuring other businesses, it may happen....but to say that the significance of the INNER HARBOR OF A MAJOR CITY is not more important then a bar district or new wave trendy area is just ignorant. If we look at the short term effect of any major project in this city, some local business will lose something, but if we dont do anything Buffalo will continue to shrivel into obscurity and insignificance.

Buffalo has a lot of intrigue right now: UB 2020, High Speed Rail, City ReInvestment, and if we finished this project in 5 years, the 20 year city projection might be surprising. Lets not stop it. Lawsuits and set wages are not appealing for anyone looking to take a financial chance in Buffalo.

replied to dloarmani
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Insightful. Thank you for sharing with the minions your wealth of knowledge, and surely experience, dloarmani. Creative name. I picture... a guido, with chest hair, and a gold chain helpful in knowing where to stop shaving. And of course, the signature Jersey Shore blowout.

replied to dloarmani
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After all these years of talk and changes of location, design, game plan, if I were Bass Pro at this point I would walk. "Will the last one out please turn out the lights" still holds true. Overall nothing changes, been the same old game since the 70's.

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One thing I liked about the previous incarnation of this site is that responses to comments aligned directly under the comment to which one responded. Under this format it is far less clear to whom one is responding. for what it's worth . . .

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Let's not bring facts into this argument, so 80% of the people in Erie County feel Bass Pro's sweetheart deal of 35 millions dollars is too much, screw them, corporate America always wins, they call the shots, after all they paid good money to influence our political process.

replied to grad94
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this lawsuit is a complete waste of taxpayer money, and who made this guy king? I'm thinking of filming a suit against him for obstruction of justice. SICK of all this.

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CANALSIDE WILL NOT GET BUILT IF BASS PRO DOES NOT COME TO BUFFALO!!! LET THEM BUILD!!!

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I agree, let them build, with their own money.

replied to Bison716
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I can't believe how many of you dont realize that if another business wanted to be the "anchor" and not use any public funding, it would already be here. Downtown has zero appeal. To get BP or Ikea or H&M or whatever, we have to subsidize it. I could careless what the "anchor" is but we will have to contribute to it or else the project is pointless. We are trying to create a tourist destination for people outside of the city. Elmwood 2.0 is not the future of the 50th largest metropolitan area in the country.

Buffalo has recently resurrected its shops, food, and culture. Now we need a way to show it. This project with national corporate sponsorship is one way to do it. Let's hope the very people that the project is suppose to help are not going to waste their own taxpayer dollars to destroy it.....

replied to Blackrocklifer
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Bass Pro is yet to commit to the City of Buffalo even with a 35 million dollar bribe. Maybe they don't see their store as strong enough to anchor this developement and have cold feet. For us to invest so much in a business that has so far shown at best lukewarm interest in Buffalo does not make sense.

replied to Urban Cowboy
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Very true and well said

replied to Blackrocklifer
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urban cowboy:

a. You say any retail anchor would require subsidies to locate on the waterfront. I agree with you. We disagree on what that means, however. The necessity to subsidize retailers suggests to me that the downtown waterfront is not a viable retail location. Why are we trying to force the square peg into the round hole? What is the benefit?

b. You want a shiny 'national sponsor' to validate the development and thereby attract tourists. I don't see Bass Pro as the big magnet proponents do. Big box retail does not create the type of attraction which will draw me or like minded consumers. Give me an authentic, unique neigborhood and I'll come. But give me another mall and I'll yawn while I shop Amazon and eBay.

replied to Urban Cowboy
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biniszkiewicz:

Here is how I look at it.

1) You are right it is a difficult project because it does require establishing something "significant" from something that is very very insignificant. I've been to the area several times this summer. There is a hole(not circle or square) in the ground and some grass along the shore. It is what it is. A great location with a lot of work to be done.

2)You are right about BP, it wont bring people like us there more then once a year, but it can draw crowds from outside a 30 mile radius. Here are some stats from last year BP operation:

* Over 109 million people visit Bass Pro Shops 56 retail stores across America and Canada each year.
* 45% more visitors than Major League Baseball
* 73% more visitors than Disney Parks
* More visitors than the NBA, the NFL and NASCAR combined.

The people that would come to this store(or another big anchor) would bring money to the Canal Side. This money would allow the local shops and stores, that you would like to see, grow and prosper here. Its symbiotic relationship. They need each other to co-exist. BP square footage is 15% of the total space available. I want to stress that I don't care about BP but I do want whats best for the city in the long haul. It can still be a unique and authentic neighborhood. And hopefully someday it will. I just wish things moved faster here because we area running out of time.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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I'm just curious, does anyone know of a place where you can rent Jetskis to cruise around the lake?

If Canal Side takes off, this area looks like a very viable place to have a rental shop like this.

If we continue to have events like the World Junior Championships down at the Arena, people are gunna exit the venue and immediately turn to Canal Side for entertainment. IMO, Canal Side is a crucial area to develop for when Buffalo hosts national and international events.

If Buffaloians weren't so lawsuit-happy, maybe our international guests this winter could have enjoyed a nice Casino and Entertainment District in Canal Side to enjoy. Instead they will be looking at piles of dirt and a steel skeleton to take back as a memory. :(

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There is a place on Grand Island near the Holiday Inn that rents jet ski's. I think it is called Waikiki.

The casino was the victim of the economic downturn, not the lawsuit.

replied to 5to81ALLDAY
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since we buffalonians are supposedly so suit-happy, i'm still waiting for that list of development-related lawsuits in the city in the last five years. it shouldn't be hard, since you all just -know- that they're everywhere.

replied to 5to81ALLDAY
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No, let them build with my money and the thousands who support change in Buffalo, it's long overdue waterfront attraction and real progress. You,... you can use your money to fill the pot holes in Allentown.

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Here is Bruce Fisher's explanation of his stance in Artvoice:
http://artvoice.com/issues/v9n30/fishing_for_salvation

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Also a short interview with Mark Goldman that touches on this:
http://artvoice.com/issues/v9n30/five_questions

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He even slips in the interview saying that "the project creates supply and not demand." This lawsuit isn't about BP(he doesn't sell fishing lures) its about him being a good businessman and not wanting to compete with a new attractive entertainment area while he is moving farther away from it.

Whether you support Bass Pro or not, Goldman is not trying to be a local hero and save or Canal Side project from the evil Bass Pro, he is simply trying to keep money in his pocket. I don't blame him, but he is not by any means doing the people of Buffalo a service. He is making the very taxpayer dollars that should be used downtown, go to court fees. He is just pulling the covers over Buffalo acting like a mercenary.

After reading this article, it sickens me that people support this guy. I sure am going to be spreading the word about how to never eat at this Black Rock Bar.

Ask yourself this, if he was a patron of our city, why wouldn't he want to open a restaurant in the Canal Side Project? Why wouldn't he want to be part of the new era? It's alright to disagree about BP and to voice your opinion, but where is his support for the project in general? NOT THERE.

replied to JSmith
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goldman is a self serving fool, and portrays himself as some sort of "savior" because he has money. Hey Goldman- how about last week when there were 6 people in the rear of Hardware blowing lines of cocaine at 5 am OFF OF THE BAR and you were sitting at the other bar acting like it was no big deal? Way to run a business. Creep.

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Hi Bini,
It's not so much that Silver Spring was a ghost town per se (it still had a fairly large population), it's just that there was nothing tying the city together. The retail core that was created (seed money being public funding - not sure how much the exact figure was and it's a little too late to go digging for that, but suffice it to say it was a decent amount initially, but now it's only the initial drop in the bucket) gave the region a destination which in turn attracted new condo and apartments because all of a sudden kids out of college and young families wanted to live in the area. This, in turn, created a critical mass of people which caused further retail/residential growth and soon companies started looking at the business district in a new light. Instead of being a crime ridden, low income area, the district was now full of life and, more important, a lot of people with degrees. Companies now fight for space and the vacancy rate has dropped from 35%+ to about 5%, even with tons of new builds in the past 5 years.

I think Silver Spring's situation is special because the amount of wealth in nearby DC is obviously more than that of Buffalo, but I think the underlying principles apply. If canal side is done right, creating a critical mass of people is possible and could cause a similar localized boom. But I agree, BP doesn't fit into anything I just said and I, personally, have stepped into 1 location once. And it sucked.

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Retail stores are where money is spent, not earned. Without an economy where workers are EARNING money & then spending it, retail is either a survival or a parasitic mechanism.

Bass Pro, in Buffalo, would be parasitic.

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Well now its official that Bass Pro is not coming. Sort of a joke this whole song and dance with them had become.

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Yep, no big surprise here:

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2010/07/26/daily55.html

Highly amusing how the ECHDC officials were still swearing that everything was on track as of just a few days ago!

Wonder how they will spin this after Jordan Levy said "there is no plan B", because no other major retailer in the world wants to come to downtown Buffalo if Bass Pro isn't there. ( ??? ) Maybe now things will evolve more towards the organic development that biniszkiewicz described.

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Although I sort of hoped BassPro would not come (as I didn't see it as an attraction) I am somewhat embarassed and frsutrated that yet another project has fallen through. Buffalo has a beautiful waterfront and so much potential that goes wasted. I was in Niagara Falls, Canada last evening and the amount of new investment and progress vs. the US side of the Falls is sad and also embarassing. They tore down the wintergarden and the street there is really cute, nice & modern planters, flowers, fountains, etc. but blocks of empty storefronts. WNY is doomed with the current political forces and endless lawsuits. I am not sure why I continue to stay here where we seem to always be stuck in neutral.

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"I was in Niagara Falls, Canada last evening and the amount of new investment and progress vs. the US side of the Falls is sad and also embarassing."

All I can say is that I hope when/if Niagara Falls, NY begins to grow again they follow a much more organic and less obtuse development path. The natural beauty of the Falls is overshadowed by the sheer gaudiness and poor planning of NF, Ontario.

replied to buffaluv
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We would be better off throwing that money at HSBC to get them to build a new tower, add to skyline. Who cares put it right where Bass Pro was to go. Put shopping and restaurants in the area too, maybe some condos. We have too many parks, they only go so far, people want things to do and we have plenty of parks vs. other cities. We need jobs and money circulating.

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Plenty of parks? Get rid of them? What are you on. Adding to the skyline is great but we don't need another office building. I took a walk with a friend around DT today and she told me about her search for new offices for her company. It's disgusting how many vacant office buildings there are downtown. For the money it would cost to build a new one, they could update an existing one with gold plated everything.

replied to buffaluv
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Yes plenty of parks...tell me what major city has almost the entire waterfront as parks...take a drive from small boat harbor up to the Grand Island bridge and count how many parks you pass vs. waterfront housing, restaurants, etc. now compare to other cities that we aspire to be like.

replied to LouisTully
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We should hand over Bass Pro and the 35 million funding to the Senecas. Get them do their casino a few blocks away if they develop shopping/eating at canalside. The casino jobs are higher paying than any BassPro were going to offer.

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The press conference was stunning for its aura of bewilderment. People who have been paid to focus on the waterfront have not planned for a possibility that doesn't include BassPro: that's what is sad. Buffalo, after years of experience, should know better than to pin its hopes on a silver bullet.

Mr. Levy suggested that ten other retailers will be pursued to replace BassPro. Other large retailers are not interested in Buffalo's waterfront: the demographics don't add up. Build an environment that doesn't rely on an experience that can be duplicated in other major cities in North America. Lay out a street grid and design guidelines, tear down the skyway and build access to the waterfront.

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http://www.buffalonews.com/city/article86184.ece

Finally. Thank God. Now do what the Sabres ought to do and clean house. Get rid of Levy. Get rid of Quinn. Get someone else to lead ECHDC.

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what a suprise that Bass Pro isn;t coming. From the "got-ya" press conference from Big Tony, to the inept leadership by Larry Quinn...what other result could their be.

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Mark Goldman, in todays News suggested a Website for regular folks to comment and suggest ideas for the waterfront. This is a great idea but it was unclear whether the website already exists or if it was simply a proposal by him. Somebody please let me know. What has to happen first is getting the infrastructure right or at least having a plan to get the infrastructure right. A guy named Stephen Covey says "If you want to harvest in the fall you have to plant in the spring; if you don't plant in the spring no amount of BS will help you." Trying to force any end use like Bass Pro simply is wrong. Start with the infrastructure, starting with the Skyway. Move most of the waterfront traffic to the one part of the Southtowns Connector porposal that made sense, the Tifft to 190 connection. Then build a tunnel under the Buffalo River. The $240 million that the NYSDOT claimed it would cost was a made up number much like when they told us that the Erie Canal stones would explode if exposed. Don't think its feasible? Take a short ride over to the Welland Canal and look at the underpasses; our version would just be bigger. Cost might be LESS than the bridge and would avoid paying operators, trafffic delays and high maintenance costs.

Lastly, why would you folks consider a lawsuit silly that asks people to obey the NYS Constitution? Corporate wlefare is a serious problem; jsut take a look at how much the county is subsidizing the Buffalo Bills. Also need to change the make-up of the Erie Harbor group. Quinn needs to fall on his sword after this fiasco.

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