City July 22, 2010 8:34 AM

BRO Leaves Town #4: Buffalo Ain't Detroit

BRO Leaves Town #4: Buffalo Ain’t Detroit
When the national press needs to invoke the less desirable charms of the Rust Belt they will invariably include the name of the Rust Belt capital, Detroit Michigan. When needing additional emphasis (which is almost always) they will also throw in one or all of the other supposed big time Rust Belt disasters Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo.  I have little experience with these other 2 cities but I can speak about Buffalo and with a bit less authority about Detroit.  Let me say this very emphatically.  Buffalo ain't no Detroit and I don't mean that in a bad way - for Buffalo that is.
 
I have family in Detroit so I am there often. The place is quite fascinating and not for the right reasons.  I get sad and angry when I am there.  Sad for what has been lost and continues to be lost and sad because I am not confident there is a will or a way to save what is left of that city.  As many know, Detroit is a city decimated by population loss, poverty, crime, corruption, industrial decline, mismanagement, abandonment, and decay.  It is a very shallow remnant of a once great metropolis.  Though still a very large city of about 900,000 people it has followed the course of many American cities as it shrank drastically from its height of about 1.8 million in 1950. Just since 1980 Detroit has lost the equivalent of the entire population of Buffalo.  Its remaining population is virtually all African American and poor and is dominated by a massively sprawling suburban population totaling 5.7 million people (including nearby Canada). 

Detroit-2.jpg
 
So, you might be saying to yourself, Detroit actually does sound like Buffalo, just biggie sized.  Certainly Buffalo suffers many of the ills known in Detroit, as do all the Rust Belt burgs.  Even big flashy Chicago has these issues.  However, I don't believe that there is any other American city that suffers the issues of urban decline to the extreme extent that Detroit does, including Buffalo.  Anyone who believes that Buffalo is a pint-sized version of Detroit has never actually experienced both cities first hand.  By doing this story I risk the wrath of proud Detroit residents who understandably want to protect the name of their city.  To them I apologize in advance and hope that I am not taking unfair swipes.  I really take no pleasure in bashing another place to pump up another.  But, there is no other way to do this story without doing a little smack down on Detroit as a way of showing the positives in Buffalo and to draw the line to the Detroit-Buffalo comparison.  I am not saying all is good and cozy in Buffalo, just that Buffalo has tremendous assets and momentum that make it starkly different than Detroit in a way that is not recognized nationally and that even Buffalo residents may not realize.
 
First, Detroit the good.  Detroit experienced its massive growth at the same time the United States made its amazing ascendancy to the top spot of world powers. From the dawn of the auto industry in the 20's to mid century American dominance, Detroit was possibly the most influential city in America.  It was an industrial mega-city with vast wealth.  It was high tech and dirty industry all rolled into one. It was blue collar but was also sophisticated culturally. As its industrial leaders changed the way things are made, its main product (cars) transformed the way cities across the nation were made and remade. Its architects led the American modernist movement with almost all of the important names of the area either practicing in or starting their careers in the Detroit area.  Saarinen, Yamasaki, Eames just to name a few of the mid century master designers who influence our culture even to this day.  In music, of course, Detroit gave us the Motown sound, which revolutionized popular music and fashion. Many say that downtown Detroit has the best collection of 1920's skyscrapers in America.  This is not a farfetched statement even when compared to NYC.  The downtown area is full of amazing and extravagant towers and many smaller buildings that create one of America's most fascinating urban environments.  The downtown streets are laid out in a beautiful radial pattern that provide endlessly fascinating and complex views and vistas of elaborate building collages.  It speaks of enormous civic pride and accomplishment.

Detroit-3.jpg 
 
Now the bad.  Even as Detroit prospered the seeds of its demise were being planted.  The car, of course, was the main driver of Detroit's wealth and as such the city made sure the car was well accommodated as the city grew.  This means that all of the city's main streets are massively wide.  Woodward Avenue for example, once the Delaware Avenue of Detroit, is 8 lanes wide!   It is approximately 2 times wider than any street in the city of Buffalo.  This scale of street is common in Detroit.  With their cars, people spread out far and wide covering 145 square miles just within the city limits.  They built no subways as other very large older cities did. Instead starting in the 50's, and continuing in ensuing decades, the city built an extensive crisscrossing grid of highways that left island neighborhoods surrounded by highway moats.  Eventually people moved even further out into the surrounding countryside with the 6-county region now covering almost 4000 square miles. As they did, Detroit embraced suburban life with a passion showing the rest of the country the way to its future.  The American workingman made it big in Detroit.  His unions gave him the best lifestyle the planet had ever seen.  But eventually overreaching by those unions coupled with poor corporate management soon doomed American industry and Detroit's gravy train started to show signs of an end. Race riots in the 60's were the final nail in the coffin as Detroit emptied out at an unprecedented pace.
 
Today Detroit is a decimated city that is shocking to see.  The extent of abandonment and decay would be surprising even to those in other Rust Belt cities. Abandoned 30 story buildings are not unusual.  Imagine the Statler abandoned... for 30 years, hollow windows, graffiti covering its walls and trees sprouting on its roof.  Now imagine the same for the Liberty Building and the Rand building and many more.  Imagine Allentown and Elmwood Village mostly gone.  Imagine blight throughout North Buffalo and South Buffalo. There are few signs of real life in Detroit.  Completely abandoned buildings in downtown Detroit are common and may even outnumber the buildings still in use.  The kind of abandonment and decay known in downtown Buffalo is quaint by comparison.  Moving out from downtown Detroit you find massive tracts of emptiness sporadically filled with buildings here are there, many underutilized or in severe decay.  Burned shell buildings are common.  Though there are pleasant areas and neighborhoods near downtown, they tend to be isolated suburban style islands such as the Mies van der Rohe designed Lafayette Park.  I have not explored all of Detroit, but every neighborhood I have been in has blight and abandonment very nearby or mixed in.  There are no active and dense neighborhoods equivalent to Allentown, or Elmwood Village.  There are no streets of commercial activity like Hertel or Elmwood or Allen.  The critical mass of population in a large city like Detroit should make this a vibrant and exciting place but it cannot because the people and wealth have been dispersed to such a great degree.
 
Detroit has tried all the silver bullet and urban toy style developments to no avail.  Buffalo has done so as well but perhaps not to such brutal failure.  Where Buffalo's train to nowhere actually does travel between downtown, 3 major hospitals, 2 colleges and a major university among other things, Detroit erected a true 'train-to-no-place'.  Back in the 1980's they erected a slick elevated and automated tram that circles downtown - it just goes around and around downtown... in one direction.  It has almost no riders-at least in my experience, as I have never ridden it with anyone else.  Before that, the city built a little cute trolley system that was discontinued after running less than 20 years.  It also went nowhere.  Its infrastructure was recently removed.  Of course what is a renaissance without a shiny new tower?  The biggest and most well know comeback project in Detroit is of course the Renaissance Center.  A cluster of 5 huge towers built behind giant ventilation bunkers.  When it opened it helped to empty many surrounding downtown buildings of tenants.   A few years ago General Motors took over the center, removed the bunkers and attempted to rebrand the dowdy symbol of the city's rebirth.  Oh well - GM is still around for now. That's good right?  What is a city without a Casino?  Detroit built 4 of them downtown.  Instead of putting them all in one place to create urban synergy they placed them all in separate isolated places with dedicated parking.  The only one successful from an urban design vantage point is the Greektown Casino, which is nicely integrated within a rare active 3-block stretch of downtown.  I believe that this casino declared bankruptcy.  Oh well.  Did you say shovel ready?  Wasn't that the big important requirement for renewal in Buffalo a few years back?  Detroit tore down its massive and vacant Hudson's Department store because the already highly shovel ready city thought it needed more of that valuable resource.  The store was probably 4 or 5 times bigger than the AM&A's store in Buffalo.  The site is still shovel ready, apparently acting as an important development tool.  In the meantime Buffalo is settling for an exciting mixed-use conversion to the AM&A's building - those darned preservationists!  Detroit also recently converted its historic Statler hotel into a shovel ready site.
 
This has been a long-winded diatribe and I still don't think I have adequately described the difference between these cities.  They both have the common ailments of aging industrial American cities. But Buffalo is very different. Buffalo was originally built as a place for urban living and to this day has a relatively small but growing and dedicated core of people who are willing to make the sacrifices needed to save that urban legacy.  We can see this in the many street festivals, which seem to multiply each year.  We can see it in the block clubs and neighborhood groups that work to save and improve valuable historic neighborhoods.  We can see it in spectacular events such as Garden Walk, an event that has introduced so many to Buffalo as an urban treasure.  Buffalo, even with all its problems, has large areas that prosper and attract people who are dedicated to making the city successful.  Even though so much has been lost, the city retains much of its historic and urban heritage.  As frustrating as Buffalo can be I have great optimism in its future and see momentum building for improvement.

Detroit-4.jpg
 
To conclude, not all is bad in Detroit.  The huge Book Cadillac Hotel was recently renovated into a massive new upscale hotel.  The wonderful classical edifice is probably 3 times the size of the Statler in Buffalo.  It sat vacant for over 20 years.  Vacant buildings across the street were recently being torn down.  I am assuming that this was so that people in the hotel were not looking out their windows at a building with no glass in its windows. Ironically they built a high-rise parking garage next to the hotel with fake windows, which make it look like a vacant building (OK, so that was faint praise).  There is a real reason to see Detroit.  Its downtown, even in its wrecked condition, is a beautiful urban place to explore.  Also if you go there you absolutely need to have a taste of the Detroit signature food, The Coney Island.  This is a grilled hot dog with a delicious coating of bean, meat, chili sprinkled with onions.  These dogs are amazing.  You can find Coney Island joints all over metro Detroit but I highly recommend Lafayette Coney Island downtown.  It is in a great old through-block urban storefront run by old Greek guys that remember your whole order without writing it down.  If you are stuck at home you might also take a look at this recent Detroit Google tour that James Howard Kunstler posted on his Kunstlercast but that means no Coney for you.
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The Hudson's department store was well over 2 million square feet and 33 stories, the tallest and second-largest store in the world (Macy's NYC is bigger). It actually had basement parking for 1000 cars too. At the time, it was the tallest and largest building ever to be imploded. They replaced it with an underground parking ramp waiting for development on top. That was 10 years ago.

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Sorry but a fact check is required. It was 25 stories tall and was the third largest store in the US not the second largest in the world. As we all know, Harrods in London is generally agreed to be the largest single store in the world and there are other larger stores than either Macy's or Fields in other countries such as Japan.

replied to phrank
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Oh, my apologies. I guess it wasn't a waste to tear it down after all.

replied to Sally
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Sally: one point worth mentioning is the US is geographically larger than the city of London, as well as Japan. Japan is bigger than the city of London,too, but is largely uninhabitable due to mountains, hence why trains make a lot of sense. I know this doesn't really have anything to do with what you are talking about but I wanted to insert it just to show how smart I am.

With that said, I'd rather shop at Harrods thans Fields, but Macey's is always good fun.

replied to Sally
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"Buffalo was originally built as a place for urban living and to this day has a relatively small but growing and dedicated core of people who are willing to make the sacrifices needed to save that urban legacy"

One of the biggest issues with urban redevelopment is the sacrifices that a larger group of residents will need to make in order to rebuild the city. A small group of dedicated people may overlook the deficiencies in public education, the concerns with personal safety, unpredictable property value trends, reduced availability of services, and the like.

This is a chicken and egg debate, we need the people and the wealth in the city to foster growth and save the "urban legacy", but we need better services, education, safety, and stability to bring the wealth and people back to the city. In my opinion, the government needs to take the action to fix the underlying issues in the city that are preventing the people from moving back. That goes for Buffalo and Detroit. Corruption and apathy in both cities have crippled the downtown core, and I don't believe that either will recover until the underlying issues are addressed.

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I am not aware of any serious corruption here in Buffalo, at least not since the days of Jimmy Griffin and Bob Delano. To claim "corruption" has kept our city down is just not reasonable. Our problems are almost exclusively related to the large number of poor people concentrated in the city. No community can thrive when so many of it's citizens are mired in poverty.

replied to sho'nuff
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"I am not aware of any serious corruption here in Buffalo, at least not since the days of Jimmy Griffin and Bob Delano. "

Are you serious? No serious corruption in Buffalo? Have you grown so desensitized to corruption that the various scandals don't even phase you anymore?

Just off the top of my head, we have the Michelle Barron, BERC scandals, the retribution against South Buffalo for Michael Kearns running against Byron Brown, The Steve Casey / Steve Pigeon connection, the scandals involving Robert Palano, James Lagona, and Henry Littles, the FBI investigations into abuse and mismanagement of State and Federal funds, the Erie County Holding Center issues, the Police Commissioner debacle, the issues with the Fire Unions, everything that Karla Thompson has done from her placement in her office to her poor execution of duties, Joe Mesi holding office as liaison to the Democratic party.... and the list goes on and on and on and on.

I am assuming that you do not consider any of these as examples of corruption. It is just easier to blame economic disparities.

My question for you, if we were to increase the average net worth of the poor in Buffalo to middle class levels, would we see a significant improvement in the quality and responsiveness of government. Would this remedy the problems in our school system, with the Police department, with our HR Director, with the Fire Union, with BMHA? I don't think so.

replied to Blackrocklifer
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All of your examples are small potatoes and had little if any impact on life here in Buffalo. The most serious was the holding center abuses and that is a function of Erie County.

To answer your question, if we brought all the poor into the middle class we would remedy our problems. Middle class citizens have the means, the self interest, and the political power to affect change. It might take a couple of years but those with a stake in the game demand and expect more from their elected officials, see any middle class community for proof.

replied to sho'nuff
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Small potatoes with no impact on the residents? Are you serious? I know a lot of people who live in the suburbs, and many of them cite problems with the City Schools, unresponsive Police, constant whining from public unions, corruption in the government, and the like as reasons to stay away from the city. For so many people it only takes one more straw to break the camels back, just one more example of corruption, of crime, of unresponsive police, of failures in the school district, before they decide to leave permanently. For example, my friend Mikey was robbed by two men while he was sitting on his front porch. The Police took a few minutes to show up, took a report, and told him that he would be less of a target if he just stayed inside. The whole experience frightened him so much that he broke his lease and moved to the suburbs where the perception is that he will be safer.

The examples may be small potatoes to you, but they are cumulative to most people. We need to fix that instead of minimizing it or wishing that it didn't exist.

replied to Blackrocklifer
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This is a good point. However, I've had experiences where I had to call the Buffalo police, too, and I have yet to experience any of the disgusting indifference I keep reading about on the internets. Does that mean I'm "denying" that it has happened to other people? Of course not. However, I have a theory about this. I think certain people who, despite their enjoyment of city living, are pre-disposed to believing that the "city" is an awful place full of awful people. As such, if they have one bad experience, no matter how minor, it just "confirms all of their suspicions" and they leave the city, telling everyone who will listen what a rotten place it is. Their protestations help them reconcile the fact that they are leaving a place they otherwise truly enjoy, and not necessarily for greener pastures - just percieved greener pastures. Once they get there, they NEED to believe that their new environs are in fact better, so they don't get quite so bothered about little things like car break-ins or robberies or apathetic police. They don't hate the town supervisor, despite the fact they couldn't explain why they do or don't like either their town super or the City of Buffalo mayor. They just know that the Mayor of Buffalo is terrible and their town supervisor is...well...who cares. They don't sell their houses because somebody stole a grill from the backyard (true story). I can't prove this - but I've met a lot of people, and I'm starting to notice a pattern.

And, for the record, I've had my constitutional rights violated at least twice by suburban police officers (not in Western NY, though), and I had a locked car stolen from in front of my house in 'burbs. Believe it or not, the suburban police force didn't put their best detectives on the case, they didn't catch the perps, and they didn't recover the car, either. But I don't care, since I had insurance. What to make of it all? I would assume my experience is roughly average. Shit happens everywhere, no matter where you live. The only difference is how you are trained to think about the things that do happen to you. Many people are just trained to believe that the city is inferior, no matter how rational that belief is or is not. After all, our parents and grandparents (or "us" depending on your age) are the ones who abandoned the city in the first place, thinking they had "solved" city problems by building suburbs. How could their beliefs not shape us, even a little? We are their progeny.

replied to sho'nuff
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We were debating corruption, not the problems of schools, unions, police, and crime. With the exception of unions, these are all symptoms related to concentrated poverty.

replied to sho'nuff
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"To answer your question, if we brought all the poor into the middle class we would remedy our problems. Middle class citizens have the means, the self interest, and the political power to affect change. It might take a couple of years but those with a stake in the game demand and expect more from their elected officials, see any middle class community for proof."

So how do we bring all of the poor into the middle class? Through higher welfare payments and increased minimum wage? Where will we get the money to pay for this?

replied to Blackrocklifer
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Certainly not by higher welfare payments, we need to enact a nationwide living wage (with exemptions for teenagers). There is more than enough wealth in America to give all workers a decent wage. Wages have been driven down for the past 30 years and those dollars have been transferred to the richest Americans while leaving a large part of our society shut out of any real chance of upward mobility.

replied to sho'nuff
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broken record, repeat ad barfium....

replied to Blackrocklifer
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the fact of the matter is that buffalo had just as much - or as little, depending on your perspective - government corruption a hundred years ago when we were gaining population, wealth, and influence as today, when we are losing them.

corruption is wrong and disgusting and worthy of the highest punishment allowable by law, but it doesn't necessarily halt expansion or cause decline. you could even argue that a corrupt, buyable government is exactly what business prefers, so that private interests will prevail over the public interest.

the progressive movement of the 1890s was motivated in large part by widespread pubic corruption. from it we got, amongst other things, the civil service system. in spite of its many flaws, it is still a huge improvement over the patronage hiring racket it replaced.

replied to sho'nuff
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I didn't read about anything corrupt or scandalous in that article. The article, of course, intimates that it's very, very scandalous, but...that doesn't make it so. People need to think critically about these things. Everyone in the city is not corrupt. Everything that happens at City Hall is not a scandal. Some things are - of course. But my god, the Buffalo News is like the boy who cried wolf. Why? Because it helps them sell papers. Corruption is what the people want, so corruption is what the people get. And, I mean that to encompass every possible construct.

replied to sho'nuff
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Detroit is talking about a plan to shrink itself in order to save the city. I think there was an academic that proposed that as an option for Buffalo not too long ago.

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Would they shrink the city or the footprint of the entire metro region?

replied to ExWNYer
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They are going to shrink the city itself. Not the suburbs. They want to get people that are in the farther outlying areas of the city to relocate closer to the urban core in order to create a denser area that is easier to manage with services (police, garbage etc.) That is just one reason and the first step in a pretty ambitious plan. There are a few articles out there that talk about this. I'll see if I can find one and link it.

I agree that Buffalo, while it is still reeling from the same loss of population, jobs and manufacturing is doing considerably better than Detroit right now. Buffalo shows promise with the medical campus and there is alot of private investment going into the city. That shows good confidence. I think Pittsburgh has done the best job with transitioning from heavy industry to a light industrial, service, high tech and medical/healthcare economy. They are still losing peopel though. But I think that has dramatically slowed like Buffalo's drain has recently.

replied to sho'nuff
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ExWNYer>"They want to get people that are in the farther outlying areas of the city to relocate closer to the urban core"

Much easier said than done.

Youngstown wanted that too, but hasn't had success trying to convince residents to move. Even offering cash incentives, they haven't been able to get residents to leave the very-declined blocks where they've been trying this kind of planned shrinkage approach.

replied to ExWNYer
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One of the articles I read touched on that. Some of the people are elderly people that have lived in their homes for decades. You can't easily walk in and tell people that they have to leave their life behind like that. There is no easy answer. I think the Fruitbelt in Buffalo has a similar situation on much smaller scale. Are there not people that have lived there for long time that might have to move because of the UB 2020 plans? Maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in?

replied to whatever
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Excellent article. Fascinating.

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I like Detroit and Woodward Avenue, alone, has some incredible buildings. The Detroit Institute of Arts is an overlooked gem of an art museum. The walls of an entire gallery, painted by Diego Rivera, are a tribute to the industry of Detroit. It's an interesting juxtaposition to the decay of modern Detroit.

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One interesting lesson from Detroit is the myth that Fortune 500 companies can save a city.
Detroit has many major corporations headquartered there, but they have not been able to save the city.

Detroit is just too big, and the problems are huge. A smaller city like Buffalo, is better positioned for lasting revitalization.

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Do not regret the length of your story if that is what is necessary to communicate your point. I ask everyone to watch and learn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hhJ_49leBw&feature=player_embedded

Buffalo still lost much of its signature buildings. The last figure I saw is that 60% of Buffalo is empty, idle or vacant whether its an abandoned building or demolished grassland or shovel ready parking...and if one excludes the rare new construction 75%-80% of Buffalo is gone.

Buffalo never had the political dynasties of the Daley's in Chicago, or the political machines of say Tamany Hall in NYC...so our corruption was limited.

Buffalo's golden age of radicalism and wealth happened in the liberal and religious hotbed of the civil war and the erie canal. Afterward Buffalo evolved from an industrial center with big industrial companies headquartered here to an industrial back office or backwater with merged corporations having their headquarters elsewhere and there facilities here to being nearly completely de-industrialized.

For all the so called prejudice that liberals like to project upon Buffalo, the ethnic and racial communities stayed much longer than other cities which meant that diversity remained even as Buffalo swelled out to the suburbs.

And Buffalo was one of the last cities to elect an African American Mayer which was also a benefit. Buffalo got its African American Mayor at a time when black anger and activism of civil rights was long over and a black mayor had no more than symbolic and normal. I could go on a diatribe about the failings of do nothing affirmative action political appointments like Howard over at Buffalo State but the failings in the italian community with Masiello, the polish community with Makowski and even the Irish community with Griffin were many (Griffin being the more Truman like plain speaking, no BS types).

What is killing US cities and States stems from the Kennedy Administration: allowing government civil service unions. They raise taxes and redirect money that should be spent on government services and infrastructure to patronage, buracracy and pensions. Its why every democratic and liberal city and state that pandered to civil service unions is bankrupt today.

In a way, everyone in Buffalo and Erie County can thank the Buffalo and Erie County Control Boards. It got community CEO and business leaders out of their office, restrained the civil service unions, gave us a surplus reserve, kept taxes low and allowed our natural wealth to start being invested in the city and county again.

The future of Buffalo depends on maintaining the restraint and power of civil service unions and directing that money into rebuilding, restoring the urban core from housing, downtown offices and nearby neighborhood office/industrial parks, urban trolleys and light rail, etc.

If african americans had one failing above all others, it would be their embrace of unions and big government. Programs like School Choice and School Vouchers would have helped minority children have access to the best schools of their choice, Municipal Housing Vouchers would have allowed choice of apartments anywhere of their choice (closer to jobs or schools etc), etc. Many studies have shown how big government programs destroyed 2 parent african american households, led to the flight of the middle class to the suburbs causing a great loss to mentors and role models for those remaining, as well as a great loss to african american entrepreneurship.

Of course the big failing of African American and Hispanics was just plain the time period of their immigration coincided with the de-industrialization and the suburbanization of our great cities. The new immigrants didnt have access to the meritocracy, the assimilation that came to previous waves of immigration because the factory jobs were not there. Though one could argue that immigrant waves that have extremely strong dedication to education and entrepreneurship (asians and jews) managed to continue the path that failed african american and hispanics.

The only thing being proven today was proven 100 years ago. People gravitate to their preferences more than they avoid their prejudices. In other words, people embrace tolerance and diversity because they prefer it not because its legislated or enforced in politically correct speech. People embrace ethnic neighborhood out of preference rather than a prejudice. Buffalo has built upon its very strong roots in the Irish, Italian and Polish communities leading to a re-introduction to the city center for their progeny who have no ideas what Buffalo once was or what it is capable of being.

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Jesus. Q-dogg, really? Your comment isn't far from being as long as the article. Maybe people would actually read your comments if they didn't have to live a life off of the computer. Or get a blog.

replied to JohnQBuffalo
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not to mention he brings dishonor to those with Q as a middle initial, due to his utter stupidity.

replied to LouisTully
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exactly. if you have more to say than the person who wrote the article, you need to get your own blog.

replied to LouisTully
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Now I know who grad94 reminds me of...grammer school...grad94 is the girl that would always go to teacher and tattle because she was princess perfect. Isnt that right princess?

Will you be word counting and take your totals to the editor?

hahahaha

replied to grad94
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I'm not even sure what that means. But it makes you sound dumb.

replied to JohnQBuffalo
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Taking your digs against African-Americans again, Mr. Big Picture? What a surprise.

replied to JohnQBuffalo
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For all of your saying to the contrary Jacques, I still find your story a smack in the face to Detroit as a way to pay tribute to Buffalo.

"Those dogs are amazing", but the picture you surely know suggests they are not. Is the picture of fries and a hotdog supposed to make some subversive gesture Jacques? I'm sure you will say no Jacques, but I really find your praises to be somewhat fake, at least in reading it the first time. In fact the corrolary item in Buffalo, the Buffalo Chicken Wing, is not one of your favorites is it Jacques? I've yet to see a praisful story of yours on Buffalo with a picture of a wing in it. Maybe next time Jacques?

Do you only have pictures of boarded up Detroit structures Jacques?

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Merde, dès que M. et Mme Defarge marquer mon commentaire à propos de Jacques Mon score passera!

replied to bhorvath
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i was in detroit for the first time a few years back and spent an entire day just driving around the city trying to take it all in, and while there are some very valid buffalo/detroit comparisons, i think the author here hit the nail on the head. i was blown away by the complete lack of any form of life. no thriving urban neighborhoods at all, nothing near the colleges, no allentown/elmwood type area, just abandoned wastelands and block after block of bombed out vacant housing.

it was like being in a scene from some post-apocalyptic movie. really kind of creepy, but at the same time there is a beauty and a magnificence to all these towering vacant structures. i'm not sure really how to describe it accurately.

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i felt the same when i was there for a week. the size of the streets and the massive structures make it feel even more abandoned. it really is something right out of Robocop. Detroit is the American Atlantis- people of the future may think it was a myth.

replied to n.dru
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The amount of vacant land due to demolitions and abandonment in Detroit is said to be about 42 square miles.....Equal to the entire area of the City of Buffalo!

On another note.
John Q...Where do you get your facts? The other day you said the Buffalo School district was in talks with developers for converting Lafayette HS to housing....Untrue. Now you come up with a figure of 75%-80% of Buffalo is gone....No way.

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Cleveland Rising just had a similar article on the Buffalo food scene.

It was called "Buffalo Aint No Cleveland".

It compared the similar histories of each city (you know rust belt, urban population decline..etc). While it had a lot of nice things to say about Buffalo Wings and some of the chefs in Buffalo it noted that Buffalo has zero Food and Wine Best New Chefs in America to Cleveland's 2 (I think 3 but I forget the third), Buffalo has had zero spreads in FandW or Saveur or Gourmet etc. to Cleveland's numerous articles on it's great food culture and new restaurants over the last 5-10 years, and some other notable differences. The article closed with wondering why Buffalo was so far behind culinarily.

I bet an article like that would make you all you proud people feel real swell and seasoned.

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Cleveland really doesn't have an equivalent to the iconic indigenous foods that originate from Buffalo. Their dominant "everyman's food" is more Central/Eastern European oriented than the Italian and Greek in Buffalo; Cleveland has sausages and schnitzel, Buffalo has red sauce and souvlaki.

That being said, there's a much wider variety of ethnic cuisines available in the Cleveland area than in Buffalo. Within a couple of miles of my old house there, in a Kenmore-like suburb, there were several good Mexican restaurants and barbecue joints, a Turkish restaurant, several regional Indian restaurants, a *real* Jewish deli and several Kosher restaurants. There's many chains that have no Buffalo presence; California Pizza Kitchen, BD's Mongolian BBQ, Brio, Claggadh, J. Alexander and the like, if you're into that. There's local ethnic chains like Aladdin's. Also, the region has a large number of big city-style upscale restaurants; they're far more prevalent than in Buffalo.

It comes down to this: Buffalo's unique cuisine versus the ethnic and high-end dining one will find in greater abundance in Cleveland.

replied to bhorvath
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Sorry for the continuation of criticism on this piece Steele, it's well written and all.

But - What is the point of your story?

If Buffalo was build on the back of the auto industry (why do you think all those skyscrapers were built in the first place) do you think it would have done better than Detroit is managing that industry's resulting unprecidented decay - twice, once to Japan and then to Unions? How would you know? What are you comparing in this story? I really don't get it. It's patronizing to Buffalonians and insulting to Detroiters.

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r-k-tekt, I read many federal, state and local statistics, as well as, technology and research and economics. But I would point you in the direction Buffalorising previous posts, City of Buffalo and Federal statistics.

bhorvath, Buffalo has always had good food but Buffalo in my memory was never one of the Gourmet Cities. Though not nationally accepted Hamburg claims origination of the Hamburger, the Sunday claims origination to an ice cream store on Broadway, as well as, the chicken wing to beef on wek etc. These day to day comfort foods. Its like some places in Europe or South America (etc) where the food is unpretentious but absolutely delicious. Thats the type of food immigrants brought to Buffalo. Its not pretentious but oh boy do we love it.

PaulBuffalo, there were no digs against african americans. My comments were realistic and factual, though in your mind, politically incorrect and thus should have remained unspoken but this is Buffalo not NYC/LA. We arent as shallow, superficial and constrained by the politically correct. Buffalonians are like midwesterners...we speak out mind plainly...and do not give up our individuality lightly.

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'My comments were realistic and factual....'

You so enjoy passing yourself as an academic on almost every topic. Enjoy your Sunday and wek, ChristieLou.

replied to JohnQBuffalo
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Detroit has tried all the silver bullet and urban toy style developments to no avail.

This pretty much says it all.

Every great city that I have been to has found a balance between providing a great environment for business AND taking care of resident demands.

Every once great city that I have been to has a horrible balance.

Every city that prospers has a government that views itself as an instrument to be used by local residents and businesses to HELP the process.

Every once great city has a government that tries to not only be the tool but also the operator.

If you go back to the glory days of Buffalo, the names and groups that did good were NOT associated with government. They were business owners and residents who worked together to build something.

Somewhere along the way...people wanted stuff to happen but someone else to take care of it.

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Yup you got it.
Its why Buffalo wont really turn around until it fully abandons the dictates of unions, liberals political machine dictated by downstate and albany.
-Replace the Mayor with a City Manager like Niagara Falls that can probe areas for cost savings like consolidating accounting, finance, controller, auditing, purchasing, etc and can decentralize high cost areas controlled by unions and albany like water, sewer, street maintenance, plowing and sweeping, etc.
-privatize public schools with school vouchers/school choice. Teachers should not be government workers with government pensions.
-privatize municipal housing with rental vouchers
(CIVIL SERVICE UNIONS MUST BE BANNED FROM THE GOVERNMENT)

PaulBuffalo doesnt think anyone can be an academic who is not politically correct liberal from NYC/LA. Yes, Paul there are intelligent people that do not conform to your leftwing prejudices.

replied to longgone
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Hmmm, huge gaping praries of empty land where homes were demolished, giving way to urban farms....sounds familiar. the East Side of Buffalo is the same as Detroit...build a wall around it and forget it exists before it's too late and it spreads.

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I completely agree with Steel here. Detroit was a very, very sad place to visit. The city has lost 1 million people. That is almost impossible to conceptualize. The municipal costs of dealing with that type of abandonment are staggering. Buffalo has the same category of problem - abandonment; in the same ratio - 50%; but nowhere near the same scale. That is why the comparisons between Detroit and Buffalo are frequently-made, but not truly reflective. Buffalo's smaller size means that it can do more with less - if 50 people move to Buffalo from Chicago tomorrow, the impact might actually be felt. It would be a drop in the bucket, but that drop would at least produce some ripples. If 50 people from Chicago move to Detroit tomorrow, they won't even constitute a drop in the bucket - the drop would have evaporated before it even reaches the bucket. That's how big Detroit's problems are.

As an aside, the only other city in America that I've ever been to which is as strangled by highways as Detroit is Rochester, NY. I always thought that was odd. Not surprisingly, Rochester is dominated by suburbs, similar to Detroit. Buffalo, despite its population loss, still has a viable network of livable urban neighborhoods. Most "Rust Belt" cities I've been to no longer have a contiguous viable urban neighborhoods. That is, they have "pockets" of urbanism surrounded by blight. Detroit, Cleveland, and Rochester all fit that bill precisely. For whatever reason, Buffalo does not. The "middle" of the city of Buffalo is relatively strong, which, I think, gives Buffalo a stronger base from which to grow than its Rust Belt peers.

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Buy a math book. It's called linear algebra. Proportionality in general means the problems are solved by similar equations.

Buffalo has a continuous urban neighborhood if you live in the EVA and 1-mile radius. Yay.

Doing the cockroach on Detroit is gonna bring out the trolls.

replied to reflip
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I hope you don't or haven't ever lived in Buffalo because the statemtent: "Most "Rust Belt" cities I've been to no longer have a contiguous viable urban neighborhoods. That is, they have "pockets" of urbanism surrounded by blight. Detroit, Cleveland, and Rochester all fit that bill precisely. For whatever reason, Buffalo does not. The "middle" of the city of Buffalo is relatively strong, which, I think, gives Buffalo a stronger base from which to grow than its Rust Belt peers." either means you stand 2mm tall and are looking at the "middle of buffalo" (i.e. it is now huge to you because you are the size of drosophila) or you have never left the comfort of the EV.

Buffalo fits the bill precisely.

replied to reflip
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Wow. You are a truly miserable person.

Perhaps you should get a dictionary, because you don't seem to understand what the word "contiguous" means. Then get a map.

Then go **** a ****.

replied to bhorvath
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reflip> Most "Rust Belt" cities I've been to no longer have a contiguous viable urban neighborhoods. That is, they have "pockets" of urbanism surrounded by blight. Detroit, Cleveland, and Rochester all fit that bill precisely.

One quirk of Cleveland is its large amount of what I called "urban suburbs". Suburbanization in both Buffalo and Cleveland began in earnest in the 1910s, but relative to population, Cleveland had far more spillage over its city limits before WWII compared to Buffalo. Thus, there's a lot of areas that resemble North Buffalo or the Cazenovia Park area of South Buffalo in the Cleveland's 'burbs - Lakewood (suburban Cleveland's "gayborhood"), Cleveland Heights (Harvey Pekar's suburb, where the granola crowd gathers, along with many Orthodox Jews), Euclid, South Euclid, University Heights, and much of Shaker Heights and Lyndhurst.

Cleveland also has suburban slums; East Cleveland is the biggie, although there's still pockets of prosperity inside that city's borders.

Many Clevelanders are well aware of Allentown, Elmwood Village and Hertel Avenue in North Buffalo. They're jealous. When I bought my native Clevelander girlfriend to Buffalo for a weekend, she made the observation that "Buffalonians really seem to use their neighborhoods more than Clevelanders."

replied to reflip
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We as "Americans" should all be ashamed of Detroit. If Detroit was a country we as Americans would do fund raisers for it, the government would be funneling money to it. Instead sinces its a city in this country fallen on hard times we make jokes about it.

Its a city that graduates 20% of the kids that grow up there. To me that alone is an embarrasment that should not be tolerated anywhere in this country.

The images from the city make me sit and look in wonder, how does that happen. The same outrage generated from New Orleans after hurricane Katrina should be out there for Detroit, economic disaster to me is probably less forgivable than natural ones. It is deliberate, slow, and preventable.

People wonder why we cannot compete as a country, I find one thing often over looked in the press. We spend so much effort abandoning old functional place for the new we put ourselves at a disadvantage. It is all wasted resources, and huge legacy cost with little return from what is left behind. I don't know of another country that is not ware torn that does more damage to its own infrastructure.

To me Detroit defines the ugly side affect of our "American" dream as it has been defined for the last 60+ years.

I have actually not spent a lot of time there, but am facinated by it and want to visit and explore. Predictably though, when I say lets go to Detroit I usually get weird looks.

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Well said

replied to sobuffbillsfan
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I don't know of another country that is not ware torn that does more damage to its own infrastructure. China, India, Africa, South America, Central America, Pakistan, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Hell, Southeast, Northeast and South Asia. Russia...

replied to sobuffbillsfan
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hey sobuff- in regards to your "fundraiser" comment, i don't think you're really looking at it the right way. Detroit proper is simply abandoned or paved into an ocean of parking; but the wealth in the surrounding areas (which associate themselves with Detroit or Detroit metro) would ASTOUND YOU. as you drive outbound, you'll see suburban 'fortress' office parks that belong to every major multinational corporation you could possibly name. its a city that went absolutely glacial- but instead of ice, its asphalt.

i can't recommend a long visit enough. everyone who cares about the topics brought up BRO should take a long, long look at that place.

replied to sobuffbillsfan
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I agree. Aside from office parks, The Grosse Pointe/Grosse Pointe Farms area is lovely and worth the short drive from Detroit.

What no one has mentioned in the comments is that Windsor, Ontario, too, has suffered many job losses so these two border cities share many challenges.

replied to sin|ill
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Never been to Detroit - the central business district isn't as dead as Buffalo's, is it? I'm hoping such a thing is not possible....

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A bit late to the party here.

It's an oversimplification to say that Detroit is "like a big East Side". The City of Detroit, at its height, was far more prosperous and affluent than Buffalo and Cleveland. The dominant housing stock in Buffalo and Cleveland are frame worker's cottages and two-flats, built for the working-class and lower-middle-class populace of the late 1800s and early 1900s. In Detroit, modal pre-WWII residences are solid bungalows and four-squares, many of them brick, built for the growing middle-class of the 1920s. Detroit has -- or had -- a much larger percentage of Kenmore and Snyder-like neighborhoods in its city limits than Buffalo and Cleveland. Detroit is also filled with what used to be gorgeous luxury apartment buildings, like what one would find along Delaware Avenue in Buffalo, only abandoned and open to the elements.

Basically, Detroit fell from a level where it was much higher than Buffalo, to a point that is much lower. "Collapse" is a more appropriate term than "decline". Seeing a neighborhood of battered large houses, like a North Buffalo or Nye Park/Park Meadow gone wrong, is a sight that will seem completely alien to a Buffalonian fist visiting Detroit.

Also, those living in suburban Detroit have a much greater disconnect with the city than those in Buffalo or Cleveland. We may talk about the odd suburbanite who claims they haven't been to downtown Buffalo in 10 years, but in southeast Michigan, most suburbanites live their lives as if Detroit just doesn't exist. In the mental maps of area residents, the space occupied by Detroit is an empty zone clearly marked "Theyr Be Dragyns Theyr".

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BR you have a glitch. Some pages put comments chronologically and some put them in order of responses.

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glad the title incudes the word Detroit, becouse the pics sure as heck look like Buffalo!

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Good thing you added the (!). Otherwise it would've been a lame comment.

replied to onestarmartin
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just read this. compelling case regarding sprawl, highways and car culture. Well done article, Steel. I've been to Detroit a few times. It is depressing.

Anyone want an excuse to go to Detroit (anyone still reading this a week later, anyway): go to the Ford museum. It's not automobiles (though they have a few). They have an amazing array of artifacts of everyday life from the pre industrial years through the early years of our industrial economy. From portable frontier bathtubs to huge steam tractors that look like locomotives, it's a really impressive collection of interesting things.

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