City June 28, 2010 1:12 AM

Buffalo News Tells the Internet to Go Away

Buffalo News Tells the Internet to Go Away
One week ago, Buffalo News Editor Margaret Sullivan announced that The News would be "seeking a return to civility in online comments" by forcing commenters to provide their real names. Anyone who has been paying a modicum of attention to The News' website knows that the comments there were never civil and, therefore, this "return to civility" strangely references something that never existed. Of course, reasonable people can disagree as to whether websites should allow anonymous commenting. We had the debate on Buffalo Rising a few months ago. Some people think it's critical to fostering candid, free-flowing discourse. Others think it enables worthless trash talk unworthy of publication.  

Leaving aside that increasingly tired debate, the News' decision is remarkable on a number of levels. First, BuffaloNews.com only started to allow online comments about a year ago. So our hometown paper's delay in allowing comments is rivaled only by their haste in giving up on them.  

Second, The News is resorting to this drastic move because of the quality of comments on their site. For whatever reason, commenters on BuffaloNews.com were the worst of the worst. On any given day, you would find volumes of racist, bigoted, hateful text that you'd rarely find on other smaller WNY media sites. Why is that? Well, it's hard to say but one reason why this kind of terrible nonsense thrived on BuffaloNews.com is because The News put little to no effort into moderating comments. Communities require cultivation. Either The News was unaware of this or didn't want to bother to put the resources into cultivation. Without cultivation, the weeds take over.  And they did take over in the comment section of BuffaloNews.com.  

Third, The News is going to attempt to ban anonymous commenting by setting up a system equivalent to tracking letters to the editor - requiring commenters to provide phone numbers and hometowns so staffers at The News can confirm identities is nothing short of absurd. The News could have required commenters to log in using 'verified' accounts like Facebook Connect. They could have then displayed the comments provided by 'verified' commenters at the top of the comment stream and shoved anonymous comments to the bottom. Or, they could have put the anonymous comments behind yet another click-through screen. They could have tried all sorts of 21st century solutions, but instead, The News is going to use the only process they're comfortable with - pen and paper letter to the editor-style verification. It's as if a bunch of people with AOL email addresses are deciding how The News will deal with all technological issues. 

What's next - pulling down the current Buffalo News website and simply publishing the daily print version of the paper as a downloadable pdf?  Other local publishers thought that approach would be all the rage.  

While it's disappointing that The News is running away from this issue, it's not at all surprising. The paper has been slow to adapt to the changing media landscape as management continues to hope the world goes back to 1975. They want the internet to go away, but it won't. Other online media has been quick - and right - to roundly criticize this decision by The News.  

But we want to know what you think.  So have at it in the comments.  

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I already canceled my subscription to the Buffalo News, so I can't really do anything to tell them how disappointed I am in their new approach.

I don't believe that most comments on the Buffalo News site were that far out of line. Sure there are many racist and bigoted comments, but they were relatively easy to skip over. If you want some real fun, check out the Charlotte or Atlanta newspapers about 10 minutes after they post a story about an African American who is arrested. Those comments are seriously racist. The veiled racist comments or over-reaction from certain commentators in Buffalo pale in comparison.

Then again, who really cares. Many people go back to the Buffalo News site several times a day to see the comments. If the Buffalo News is naive enough to think that the traffic to the site is because of the stories they write, then I can understand why they feel that this approach to comments is appropriate. Good luck to them.

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I predict you're right about the BN web traffic, and sooner or later they'll realize it too and back off their ban on anonymous comments.

I also agree that for most BN articles, most comments aren't terrible. Most there are of similar quality to most on BR, but BR has done a much better job of consistently moderating the overly hostile and abusive. BR does reasonably tolerate some abusiveness and hostility (both are part of life), and sometimes they're biased about what they delete - but overall BR usually strikes a very good balance in comment moderating. It's strange the BN apparently never made that a priority and yet they want to ban anon comments. It sounds like managerial incompetence which won't change until they have leadership turnover.

replied to sho'nuff
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To be honest, I am having a hard time seeing what all the fuss is about. The comment section on the buffalo news' website was simply atrocious. Inane and 'easy reading' articles, quickly produced comments that mentioned nothing about the article within, but simply spewed hate and racism. To be honest, it was almost quite comedic. The story "cat gets caught in tree" predictably lead to a 200 post long thread about gays or blacks or any other objectionable (to the poster) minority.

I see no problem at all forcing people to reveal who they are before commenting. The BuffaloNews is not censoring people, they are simply making them accountable. You are in no way restricted (I believe) in posting such filth, you are only required now to identify who you are. Anonymity provides a powerful shield, and voice to those who are too cowardly to profess their inner hatred publicly. Why is it so absurd to require people to identify themselves before speaking their mind? If you have an opinion, even about a cat in a tree, and how that relates to gay marriage, be brave enough to own it. I predict however that these bigots will cower back to their cavernous egos, because they're too yella to let their ideas see the light of day.

This move by the news does nothing against free speech. I applaud them for standing up for civility in a public forum.

Dave Hoekstra II
Buffalo, NY

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I completely agree with Dave Hoekstra's comment. This article in BR is nothing but self-serving drivel. In an attempt to discredit the Buffalo News, BR has actually discredited itself.

This is not the first time BR has done this. What is with the obsession with trying to make the Buffalo News look bad? Is BR so insecure that they are afraid that their own content cannot stand on its own merits?

Me thinks so. Two big thumbs down on BR. You are capable of more. Start acting like it.

And no, I don't work for the Buffalo News. I simply choose to read it.

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You clearly created a new account to come to the defense of the Buffalo News. And then you claim you don't work for the Buffalo News? I'd make a heavy bet that you indeed do work for the News.

Also, has BR written about the Buffalo News a lot? I've seen like two articles about the Buffalo News in maybe 6 months. Obsession? Really?

replied to Slater
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Why is this type of content the only time we see your shining face on here? Is this Newell's mother?

replied to omonahan
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I don't know what 'these' types of articles are. I commented on Nick Mendola post, McGee buying a condo unit, techARTS for girls, and TEDxBuffalo, and a bunch of others. I don't know what Newell's mom would comment on.

Personally, I think comparing the Buffalo News and Buffalo Rising is like comparing Argentina's world cup team and the local 13 and under boys basketball team. They are barely in the same family. 70% of the stuff published on Buffalo Rising bores me. But watching the Buffalo News try to figure out the future is painful. I suspect you all agree with that but it's unfun to say you agree with something so you'll carry on.

I'm still looking forward to Daniel Sack explain his apparent intra-comment schizophrenia.

replied to LouisTully
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Didn't you know? It's on page one of the New Media website owner's manual that all old media, be it papers, magazines, or TV get slagged off as often as possible. EVERY website takes a nice whack or two. It's called competitive zeal. Try it sometime:)

replied to Slater
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As a periodic reader and poster of both BN and BR online pieces, I view BN's effort to clean up their house as admirable and not a step back to 1975. Anyone who reads BN's pages knows there's real vicious vitriol found there. I've been in the middle of some of those "discussions" and while I'm thick-skinned, I don't appreciate having to pour over endless imbecilic and superfluous comment to find someone who actually has something worthwhile to say.

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It is a bit pathetic that an anonymous writer for BR feels compelled to comment on this new Buffalo News policy. Clearly BR is unaware that different media serve different needs. TV, internet, radio, newspapers, magazines, books, film... all have a place and are alive and well.

How well? Whenever a new medium comes along, existing media may be diluted or change. People watch films on their cell phones yet people still go to movie theaters. Movies were invented yet people still attend live theater. On-line news is available yet people still read newspapers. Obviously the newspaper industry is facing tough times.

I read the Buffalo News every day. The News has resources Buffalo Rising does not. The News is able to investigate stories Buffalo Rising does not, can not, or will not.

Citizens will be ill served if Buffalo Rising and its ilk are the only source of information about our area and politicians will rejoice.

Many anonymous comments on this site and others drive people away. Imagine if TV news reporters conducting man on the street interviews broadcast the inane, stupid, and rude comments from a person with a bag over their head. It may make a good SNL skit but it would provide as much credibility for TV news as such comments provide credibility here.

Obviously BR does not wish to edit or delete many comments for fear of losing advertising revenues by having fewer hits on their web page.

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First, it doesn't appear the article suggests the region would be better off if the News didn't exist and that we'd be all better off if only Buffalo Rising style entities covered the area so you're argument, while accurate, doesn't really relate to anything.

Second, I have to give you credit for writing such obviously contradictory statements in such quick succession. "Many anonymous comments on this site and others drive people away," followed quickly by "Obviously BR does not wish to edit or delete many comments for fear of losing advertising revenues by having fewer hits on their web page."

replied to Daniel Sack
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Well said.

This is a frivolous article. First, the News has a much larger and diverse readership than BRO's small market; surely the anonymous writer of this post can see that the News web comments would span a huge spectrum of ideas, from trash to insight. In addition, I can count the number of thoughtful commenters at BR on two hands.

Second, although I admire and read BRO, and read the mediocre News with a skeptical eye, the quality of reporting and writing at the News soars above that of the articles on BRO, which hover somewhere between high school senior and college sophomore.

So, let's hope the Buffalo News continues to ride the brakes when it comes to the sophomoric infatuation with online writing that BR celebrates. We don't need more comments; we need fewer and more considered ones. Both businesses have their place, but it's clear to any reasonable person which is the source to take more seriously.

replied to Daniel Sack
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So you think the News is making the right decision to make call-outs to validate a person's identity so they can then comment on the News website? Or did you just want to make the most obvious (though irrelevant to the topic) 'points' possible and point out that the News is bigger, has more resources and better writing? Talk about sophomoric.

If you think the News is making the right business decision to follow up on anonymous commenters by using staff to make phone calls to verify their identity, you have to be a fool. It's that simple.

replied to EricOak
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Yes, I do. It's their business, and if they want to filter the lunacy that pours into their site, they are welcome to do it how they like. I don't see why anyone should care.

The points about the painful writing at BRO, and their quasi-editorializing, are directly related to the article. BRO is calling the News's decision "absurd," but BRO has much deeper problems of its own: poor writing, poor journalism, and college newspaper level editorializing. Those are quality problems that they should address before they lather on this sanctimony about how "out of touch" the News is.

replied to Cardiff Giant
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They can filter it other ways is the point. You're either purposely missing that point because you're obstinate or you're simply too slow to understand.

Using, you know, technology, you can filter all kinds of stuff on the internet. They are going to filter stuff on the internet using phone calls to people. It's downright hysterical.

Also, the notion that imperfect people or entities can't criticize other entities is, of course, idiotic. Surely you must know that or you really are tragically slow in the head.

replied to EricOak
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I don't care if they use a horse and carriage to verify where people live. Why does anybody care? What is so sacred about the internet?

replied to Cardiff Giant
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Well, if you care about the viability of the News as much as you purport to you should care how they conduct their business. Perhaps you've heard the worst kept secret in town but this year the News will be breakeven for the first time ever. And next year, they are staring at losses. And those losses are likely to mount for years to come.

They need to figure out a way to reinvent their model - from costs to distribution to online publishing - and how they do it matters to how long they'll continue to afford to put resources into quality journalism. If they continue to make dumb choices, Warren Buffett will lose a nice little profit center and this area will our own little fourth estate.

So learn to care you dimwit.

replied to EricOak
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My suggestion to the news was to allow only subscribers to comment. With your subscription you get to choose one avatar.
I'll bet that 90% of the people who claim their going to cancel their subscription, do not have one in the first place.

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i don't care if comments at the news are anonymous or not, although the daily spew of racism indicated that for too much of this community, it is still 1951. so we have a lot of work to do.

bro, crow all you want that the news can't do the internet right, but the news is justified in pointing out, accurately, that bro doesn't do journalism all that well.

i do care that there is a team of professionally-trained and compensated journalists and editors monitoring government and anyone else who has the power to abuse the public trust. could the news do better in its watchdog function? absolutely. is anyone else in the buffalo media ecosystem in a position to assume this responsibility if the news folds? absolutely not.

be afraid, be very afraid, if we lose our daily paper, regardless of how it handles online comments.

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So our choice is a newspaper that has no idea how to handle the internet (or anything related to technology) or no newspaper at all? Bit of a false choice there, yea?

Perhaps, instead, the News could hire some folks who have better adapted other major dailies into the new realities of the online world - someone from the Boston Globe for instance? Because Margaret Sullivan isn't the answer.

replied to grad94
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not exactly. i reject the premise that the news doesn't know how to do anything online just because it is ending anonymous commenting. for the purpose of its core competency, disseminating news articles, investigative journalism, and cultural criticism (such as book & theater reviews), it uses the internets just fine.

replied to Cardiff Giant
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Speaking of 21st century, when is BRO going to make an mobile version of their website?

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Well said, DMZ. BR is hardly the "gold standard" as an online information resource -- in terms of both content and access. They would do well to concentrate their efforts on cleaning up their own shortcomings rather than on the perceived shortcomings of others.

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Well said Mr. Slater. We need a return to civility and a stop to all the name calling and much slinging between Buffalo Rising and the Buffalo News. We would all benefit from a cease fire to this feud.

replied to Slater
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I don't really understand why it is a big deal and quite honestly, I don't even know why this article was written. I normally sing the praises of BRO, but this is just silly, especially with the whole debate that arose over deleted comments on the Campieri's post a while back.

Commenting on a news article is similar to writing a letter to the editor, so why not keep the standard across the board?

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Careful, bringing up the Campieri's fiasco may bring out the Gestapo.

Pot calling the kettle black, glass houses. Whatever the analogy it sounds about right for Buffalo Rising. You should have titled the article "The Buffalo News sucks and our poop smells like flowers".

replied to lynnemarie
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BRO, I didn't know you moved your offices to a glass house. Why didn't you post photos?

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and it apparently came with a big rock pile..

replied to PaulBuffalo
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I assume this was posted anonymously under username 'Buffalo Rising,' as it is meant to express the overall view of Buffalo Rising's editorial staff.

I, too, tend to praise BRO, but I don't understand the point of this post. The only point I can agree with is that the News' method of verifying a person's identity is a bit dated. As noted, there are more efficient means of doing so.

As for the point about Artvoice, I read the linked article, and it only stated that the print-version would be posted on the AV site in addition to online-only video content, whereas your comment suggests that they were exclusively posting a .pdf online. Since 2004, when that article was published, Artvoice has continued to put the .pdf online, in addition to linked articles, blog posts, etc. What's wrong with that? There are plenty of other publications--both locally and nationally--that post their print versions online, and complement that with online-only content. Is the BRO staff trying to justify their decision to abandon print and go exclusively online? (You need not do that, BRO, as this was a good decision, your magazine wasn't great. Need I point out that towards the end of your stint in the print publication world that the magazine's "articles" were exclusively printed versions of posts that had already appeared online?)

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just another example of bug brother telling us what to do. Im sick of having my freedoms taken away by these liberal socialismists, watch who you say stuff to because the next thing will be arrests.

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'Im sick of having my freedoms taken away by these liberal socialismists....'

What freedoms would you like back? You can trust me. I won't tell anyone. (Now, if only I can get this tape recorder to work.)

replied to LesterCzepnakski
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freedom of speech are you really that dum?

replied to PaulBuffalo
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Sometimes your comments are well thought out and composed. Other times, like this string, I'm not sure if your keyboard is broken or the english language is something unfamiliar to you.

replied to LesterCzepnakski
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im not working much anymore so I have more time to drink, so when I am tipsy I dont pay much attention to what Im writing.

replied to LouisTully
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You must be right. BRO seems to taking away your freedom of speech one letter at a time.

replied to LesterCzepnakski
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shame on that big, profitable, privately owned yet sinisterly socialist publishing enterprise for ending your right to engage in anonymous flamethrowing. before you know it, they'll be making their oppressed employees sign their names to their articles.

replied to LesterCzepnakski
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Ever read the comments at the New York Post site? It's a classic trainwreck of off-topic rants and racist screeds. They drive away real discourse and lower the value of the brand (if that's even possible at the NY Post). I don't blame the news for this policy but they're going about it the wrong way given that in a large area, trolls who provide their real names would probably keep making the nasty comments per usual. Worse yet, if they were cyberstalked, they could turn right around and try to sue the paper for whatever. The best solution is to moderate and prune away the nastiest, least contributory commenters while allowing the 'anonymity' that keeps the web conversation going.

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None of this would be a problem if all of you could publish with the same high degree on information, humor and overall joie de vivre as I do.

Of course, that would be like asking for all of you to be as good looking as I am. It;s just not going to happen.

shame.

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There is a real disconnect between the printed word and the electronically published word. In the Buffalo News print edition OP/ED section we would never expect to see the comments and viewpoints expressed that we have all seen online. Why is one version exempt from a longstanding rule that most newspapers follow- your opinion doesn't get printed unless you provide your name and number for follow up, after all, it is still the Buffalo News. As our society moves away from physically printed information toward internet-driven information sharing, we are struggling with what rules to bring with us. I think it is completely acceptable to require people to be accountable for what they say in a mainstream news source like the Buffalo News or New York Post. There is a distinct difference between an online magazine/blog and an online edition of a mainstream news source.... Now we all know Buffalo Rising prints some articles that no one takes credit for... whether it's when Christa writes pieces mentioning her production of Nickel City Chef or what have you... which is fine, this is a blog and while informative sometimes, not a mainstream news source. Therefore the journalistic standards one should apply toward BRO are significantly more relaxed. So who ever wrote this article is leaning toward anonymity. On Buffalo Rising, anonymity is appropriate, its not a mainstream news source, it's a fun blog about our city and the people in it.

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The commenting on the Buffalo News website had become quite disgusting but the News should've expected that. Racist, Bigoted, Sexist, abhorrent comments is what prompted Yahoo!news to end it's commenting system and also prompted the BBC's website to move to a commenting system that requires the web administrator to screen the comments before they're officially posted.

The News has every right to do this. It's a business and the website is under it's ownership. This isn't limiting free speech because the people on there have plenty of other websites to post their twisted views on. I suspect many of them will go back to posting on various white supremacist/conspiracy theory forums again.

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I'm with BRO on this. The 'News could have easily run a script that allowed them to pre-screen hot words and phrases to help get rid of some of the nasty, but instead they've come up with a solution to show they are 'taking a stand.' In fact, unless they put up a verification process like credit card authorization, most of those deviants will just create an email account and make up a fake name that sounds real. If they do put up a credit card verification process, they'll pretty much shut down their online community. I'd predict that this will backfire on the 'News.
Interesting also was Don Esmond's article about the 'national attention' they got. It's not like main stream media with forward-thinking digital strategies think that the Buffalo News is doing anything progressive here...is it a coincidence that the Buffalo News, a Yahoo advertising partner, got a story on Yahoo?
Since the Buffalo News has so little faith in anonymity, and has completely overlooked the myriad of reasons why people who comment on forums and do behave don't want their personal names out there for all the world to see, are they now going to ban anonymous sources in the journalism that appears within their pages? If you are going to take a stand with that kind of arrogance, then do it all the way Buffalo News.

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I am not 100% positive, but I think BN.com does use key words to filter comments.

replied to elowrey
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If they are using keyword filters, then why do they even have this problem?

replied to jimmy
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BN.com blocks any offensive and objectionable words from being posted, much like BRO. BRO will **** out words while BN will prohibit the post until the words are changed.

The issue isn't with the words, it is with the comments. If someone says that there is higher crime in mostly African American communities, then the comment is flagged as racist and deleted. The N word doesn't need to be included for it to be considered racist.

BN did a couple of stories about kids who died from drug overdoses, suicide, and car accidents. Some of the comments on BN.com were insensitive to the parents of the children, usually hinting that the child would still be alive if the parents were as involved with their child's life before they died as they are after death.

There were a lot of comments about police and fire department misconduct and those two unions. There were also a quite a few inappropriate comments about our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, usually accompanying the story about a soldier who died in combat.

There were many cases where the comments challenge the legitimacy of the facts in an article or a lack of objectivity by the reporter.

Just like on BRO, they have a regular cast of people who post anonymously. Some of them continually make inappropriate comments, yet they are still allowed to comment. It seems like BN.com would rather throw the baby out with the bathwater instead of taking smaller steps that would make the forums more correct and appropriate.

It is my opinion that this is what people are complaining about. They feel that instead of putting more stringent limits on the comments, they want to publish names and locations of those who make comments. The objection is that most of the people who are speaking out against the objectivity of the paper, against the local government and unions, or against the two wars, will not do so if they run the risk of public scrutiny. So this is an easy way for BN to limit and remove the most controversial comments that get them in trouble with local institutions, without having to create a policy to do so. In my opinion, this is pretty sharp thinking on behalf of the BN staff, they found a way to please the local political institutions and local unions without actually infringing on free speech or directly limiting comments that might get them in trouble with those groups.

replied to elowrey
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Gotcha. Good point. I agree with you that the BN is trying to accomplish their task without a ton of effort, but I don't think that's sharp thinking. I'd rather have a good policy than the alternative option accomplished with minimal work and also minimal involvement with their online forums community.
If the Buffalo News is concerned about politicans and Unions and what they think or like, then they have their priorities crooked.

replied to jimmy
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If you Don't like the BN policy, you can always set up your own blog, and say whatever you like.

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Exactly...like wnymedia. Anyone visited that steaming turd lately? I wish Bedenko and Chris Smith would come back and comment on here like they used to. Ahhh the good ole' days.

replied to johnnywalker
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You mean "All Paladino All the Time" isn't enjoyable to you, either?

replied to Scott Norwood
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"All Paladino, All the time?" Not really.

In the past 7-10 days, we've written articles on Citybration, The Buffalo News, Chris Collins, the Erie County Legislature, local TV news coverage of the G20, several articles on BP and the oil disaster, Obama, Congress, the cost of sprawl, iPhones, reports on Buffalo's economy by the Brookings Institution, wind turbines, human rights in Cuba, Joe Illuzzi, the NY State Senate, the State Budget, local school budgets and we've live streamed or shot video of a news event each day. Along with our radio content on WECK and partnerships with Artvoice and YNN, we've got a steady stream of non-Paladino content for you. Hell, we even made nice with the BRO management a few months ago. It's a big alternative media lovefest in this town.

On to the topic at hand, we're also doing a more thorough job of moderating our comments to keep the dummies, sock puppets and profane yokels off our site. I think we've all taken some steps to clean up our comments section lately (including BRO and AV), but The Buffalo News went and applied an old media solution to their new media problem, which is what they do. We're working on a more elegant solution for comment moderation and identity management and will probably have it together when WNYMedia v64.3.1 comes out later this summer. Most outlets (including BRO, I suspect) are doing the same. I can assure you that none of us are considering a call to the home of our commenter before publication.

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it's the regional newspaper, not 4Chan.

I support Buffalo News' decision, the comments reflect on the community, and the vile rhetoric damages our image.

as others have noted, if anyone feels their free speech is infringed upon, they can always set up a free blog or account with one of the other regional news forums, repost BN articles, and add their bigoted editorials there.

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Several of my comments have been regularly censored on the Buffalo News Website. None of my them contained information about the color of a person's skin. Rather, they questioned the intelligence with which articles were written. They question the lowest common denominator attitude some of the new reporters take when gathering info for a story. And occasionally, they question the intelligence (or lack there of) of the people whom they are writing about.

Sure, my comments may be harsh but they are realistic. And they've been censored regularly. Even if they employed filters to comments, the News continues to stifle anyone who may make them look foolish as a business.

Not surprised to see this happening because of the hate spewed by a handful of socially inept and ignorant people. If you look on any given day at the comments section, it's the same 10-15 people commenting on every story. So, we're now just going to be missing those 10-15 idiotic contributions to humanity. Big deal. Happy to see them go.


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Buffalo Rising may want to look into following suit and finding a way to clean up their own boards. Since this originally posted it has seemed like Groundhog Day with the same people bickering back and forth on nearly always the same topics.

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What do you think will happen to BRO if all the comments went away? Do you think people will come back a few times a day, or will they just check in occasionally to look at the articles. What does that do to advertising revenue and site traffic?

I think that Buffalo Rising needs the commentators more than the commentators need Buffalo Rising. I enjoy the articles and the comments, but I don't think that the majority of articles are written well enough to stand on their own without the peanut gallery chiming in. It is the comments that make this site what it is.

replied to LouisTully
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