War Resisters Are Veterans, Too

"War Resistors are Veterans, Too" - Well, No.

Even in the year 2010, when we've apparently become so comfortable with doing so little, I hope most readers realize there's quite a difference (and honor/respect that needs to be paid) between those who fought and died, and those who make films, after joining the military, then decide that wasn't such a good idea (ooops, they kill people here? I could be one of them? I'm outta here).

What's next from BR? "Lesbians love men too"?, "McDonalds employees back vegan movement", "Skateboards and Bikes are really Cars".

This article in an affront to all the brave men and women who have served our country. I cannot believe that Buffalo Rising would have the gall to publish this trite on Memorial Day.

The men and women who desert the military may be veterans, but they are above all deserters who turned their backs on the country that they swore to protect. They are cowards and criminals, and do not deserve the mention that you have given them here.

We have not had a military draft in the United States for nearly 40 years. These young men and women go into the military with full disclosure that we are in a war. They would have to be completely incompetent to not know that there are conflicts and wars throughout the world, and our military is at the front of many of these conflicts. They go in with full knowledge of this, decide that it is too difficult, and bail in cowardice.

This whole article was done in poor taste. I wonder how your advertisers will feel when they know that you are supporting such anti-American efforts.

I dunno. I signed my contract after 9/11 when a "justified" war had already begun. While in college as a member of ROTC, that "other" war begun. Had I been sent there instead of Afghanistan I may have had different feelings about what I was doing.

I agree with Omonahan's breakdown of the first comment (look at that, we share an opinion).

What are the circumstances surrounding these "deserters"? Were their contracts finished? Were they on IRR status and being activated? Did they have deployment orders and then went AWOL? Let's get the facts before we start burning people.

Stancsea: I'm assuming based on your reaction that you're a veteran. Of a wartime military? Cowards and criminals though you may call them, they are veterans of a wartime military and have done something millions are unwilling to do. I came back with a huge chip on my shoulder with anyone that hadn't answered the call. Is it cowardly to oppose a war you've participated in?

http://www.ivaw.org
Are these people cowards?

For the record, if that Palin chick ever holds a job in the Executive Branch of our federal government, I'll be joining these guys. Not because of her political affiliation - I did after all serve my entire time under the Bushwacker. Rather, because she is absolutely insane.

Memorial Day is the time to remember those veterans that gave their lives for their country. IMO it is not the appropriate time for people to try and celebrate veterans that fled to Canada and are living safe and sound. This is not a statement against their beliefs... it's merely a reminder that they are still alive and enjoying the benefits of those that fought and died for freedom - like all of us sitting here reading this. The debate about whether they are right or wrong should not be on Memorial Day, because that day is not about them in any way.

While I understand that BR publishes articles that sometimes are meant to spark debate and encourage ideas. I find the preceding article insulting, the so called "Resisters" are by definition criminals and never should be included in the same category as those who served our country regardless of their personal beliefs.

yeah, this shouldn't have been posted just prior to Memorial Day. Though their stories all differ, here are a couple of the mentioned individuals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Hinzman
http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/content/view/541/1/
In Jeremy's case it's tough to have too much sympathy for a guy who signed up for infantry and volunteered to go airborne. That's kinda what comes with the job, guy. Recruiters are persuasive and misleading, but even a blind man could have seen what lie down that path. And then he went and sat in an air conditioned C hut in the wire and played armorer.

You made a commitment. If you disagree with it fulfill your commitment then speak out every chance you get. It's a different story if you're getting called back years later on IRR, but these two are turds.

I'm about as anti-capitalistic/anti-american imperialism as one can get, but even I'm offended by this article, most writers for bro are half-way respectable but whoever wrote this/edited this really dropped the ball. I think I'm done with this rag. I am done

This article is in poor taste. As a veteran I am offended by it. BRO should have (if at all) posted it at some other time. Shame!

Agree with the sentiment that the publishing of this article on Memorial Day weekend is completely tasteless. Veterans or not, "war resisters" are deserters. Period. To try and glorify their "plight" on this of all weekends is completely indefensible and classless.

BRO editors/managers - please delete my account. I'm done with you. There's no reason for me to read this crap let alone comment on it.

Mr. Beyer wrote "Russell Brown and I drove to Toronto to stand with the War Resisters Support Campaign in solidarity with Afghanistan war resister Jeremy Hinzman as his lawyer presented an appeal to the Canadian courts regarding his claim for refugee status."

Why are Hinzman and others in Canada bothering that nation's court system about any of this?
Why don't they just accept a prison penalty in the U.S. of less than 15 months (usually well under 15 months, often no prison at all), instead of bothering Canada?

From the CS Monitor:
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2008/0801/p09s01-coop.html
"...a cursory look at the punishments meted out to deserters who have voluntarily faced military justice reveals relatively mild prison sentences.
Most have run from two to 15 months, along with dishonorable, bad-conduct, or other-than-honorable discharges.
...But staying in Canada has its benefits.
Attention, fundraising concerts, book deals (in the case of Joshua Key, in Canada since 2005), fawning interviews on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and pundits bandying your name about.
...In October, 2006, deserter Darrell Anderson, who spent nearly two years availing himself of Canadian naiveté, returned home – where he faced no prison time, no court martial, and only an other-than-honorable discharge.
..."

Returned to the U.S. and was given no prison time. Not even a court marshall.

If somebody who voluntarily enlisted later backs out for any reason (the reasons of these guys, or the Palin-related reason LouisTully said he might be willing to use if she's ever in the exec branch) - then he or she can do that but should at least be a principled enough grown-up to accept the punishment instead of begging Canada to help them avoid it.

By the way, Canada also sent combat troops to Afghanistan. If any changed their minds, where would they go to try avoiding consequences?

No consequences? These courageous men and women have given up their homes, their families, their country, most likely never to return. They've had to start over in a foreign country where they have no ties.

They've stood up to the US military and refused to participate in a war of aggression against a civilian population. They've refused to be terrorists just because they are ordered to. I wonder how many of the critics here would have the guts to do the same.

As far as the consequences of returning, some people did get quiet discharges - many years ago. Now those who have spoken out against the war have been given long prison sentences and felony convictions that will dog them for the rest of their lives. Why should anyone serve one day in jail for refusing to kill. Refusing to kill is not a crime!

Yet to a man, they all say, I'd rather do that and kill innocent people in Iraq.

People here are saying they are "anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist". You cannot be those things and support war. If you are what you say you are, you will stand for peace and for true courage, not the false patriotism that glorifies young people murdered by their own country.

And many thanks to Buffalo Rising for publishing this today!!!

 I must have missed something. I'm a vet and I don't recall being drafted. I took an oath to obey orders, defend the ny and us constitution. I was in Iraq and I was asked to shoot at people trying to kill me and the soldier next to me. I didn't shoot back because I believed in the war, I shot back because I didn't want to die or my friend to die.  These deserters are cowards. They should go where they're ordered to (as they took an oath to do) and if they don't believe in the war and they get shot at then they just shouldn't fire back. At the very least they are AWOL. No one forced them to take the oath.
As far as the German 1939 reference goes, you have to be kidding.  I wasn't asked to commit a war crime in iraq but if I was ordered too do so I  wouldn't have. Is this what the deserters are saying. They were asked ordered to kill millions of Muslims? if so then buy them a ticket to Switzerland now so they can offer their testimony.   
It's an insult to all Jews comparing an American soldier occupying Iraq and the crime of Germans killing millions of Jews. I'm not really sure where to start.       

I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

This is the enlistment oath that's said before enlisting and reenlisting. I've said it once, and will likely say it a few more times in the upcoming years. This article is an embarrassment to any war veteran who's repeated the words above. I'd like to know if anyone on BRO's staff is a veteran, because if so, he/she should be ashamed of themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Buffalo_Nine

I believe our writer spent some time in jail himself.

I guess "coward" means different things to different people. Yes, there is no "draft" anymore, unless you consider forcing men and women who have fulfilled their "contract" to return to battle time and again, some of them wounded, many suffering from PTSD. Don't believe that? Look it up. As for defending the country from enemies foreign and domestic, you are going to have to point out the enemy here. The Iraqi people are not our enemies. Even the supposed reason for invading, destroying and occupying their country has been shown to be little more than a hoax, a charade. Where is your outrage over that?

I think it takes courage to stand against wrong, to sacrifice home and good will for what is right, to risk punishment and scorn rather than participate any longer in what you have concluded is criminal. These resisters are not people who sat home and made gratuitous comments about bravery and sacrifice. They did it. They signed up, they sacrificed. And then somewhere along the line they came to believe that this was not an honorable thing after all and they made yet another tough choice.

As for the author of this article, yes, he took a stand 40 years ago. He resisted. He refused.He took a stand and suffered scorn and punishment rather than fight in a war he considered illegal and immoral. Funny thing is that history proved him right. And he remains a peacemaker to this day.

This is typical "Bruce Beyer". He is looking for the reaction and the satisfaction of getting a rise out of everyone else. He has made an institution of provoking institutions to react than claiming that he is a victim. He is a passive aggressive, instigating, little bully. He has done this since the 70s and has made his career out of being an instigator, as he is trying to do here. Bruce has an axe to grind with the military and the men and women who serve their country in our armed services. I believe that he wanted this article published on Memorial Day to push his agenda and further disrespect the men and women who have died for our country.

Right or wrong, it doesn't really matter if you personally believe in the draft or the wars that our country has waged. I am not a supporter of our current wars, but I fully support the troops that we have sent to fight in the them. The same goes for Vietnam, Korea, and every other war. To put up an article like this on a hallowed day like today is just disgusting.

"The only way to abolish war is to make peace heroic."-- John Dewey

Bravo to BR for having the courage to post this article. If no one signed up for the military, there would be no war. So every soldier that "risks their life" does it by their own choice. This isn't the 1930s or 1940s, when joining the military was a necessary option to protect our country. In a world where weapons are remotely controlled and drones can take aim at a target less than a foot in diameter, soldiers have become obsolete in any war... and the evidence of that obsolescence is evident in the endless footage of American soldiers involved in torture and other reprehensible acts around the globe. The ugly truth is that most people join the military for the generous benefits: healthcare, money for school, etc. but simply do it under the guise of "defending our country." Many countries have no military, or very little military, and they get along just fine.

This isn't to discount those who have died for our country, but we should see their deaths for what they are, and not some sort of hero-worship fear of insulting soldiers that grew out of the Vietnam era... when you buy that, you buy in to the propaganda that the government is feeding you. Think people, there's another side to this story.

Interesting post. It certainly has got people thinking about the issue. And while many want to get on BRO for publishing it, maybe you should have a look at the post two down from this one by RaChaCha titled "Honor Our Fallen Service-members This Memorial Day Weekend". It seems to me that BRO gets screamed at for giving just one point of view but when they offer up two different points of view people start "canceling" their memberships, which is funny because it is free and all WillamZabkaAllStars has to do is stop visiting the site and he has effectively done what he threatened in his misguided comment.

I live in the Elmwood Village, I'm liberal, and generally anti-war, but I do not agree that our service men and women should be able to turn tail and run to Canada. I do, however, think that if they are honestly that opposed to this war, and believe that it is not what they signed up for, than why not offer them the opportunity to give back every penny that has ever been paid to them for their service in the military (training aside), and be on their way?

Oh, and the author is Bruce Beyer, who to my knowledge hasn't written for BRO in the past so why not hate on him instead of BRO?

The much larger issue at hand is that a country can’t survive a military that acts independently. Mind you there is fundamental difference between A) Military Refusing to Fight and B) Military Coup. Both cases you have the military deciding it doesn’t have to listen to civilian leadership and can act as it pleases.
The Nazi analogy doesn’t mean anything, and I defer to Godwin's law on that, and general the completely lack of real thought put behind nearly any discussion that eminently jumps to an ‘un-deniable’ truth. Same time I could ask you, if you came of age say 1940, and were called up for the German army after you spent the last 4 years of your life being bombed by the Allies, are you dishonorable for defending your country from the coming wave of Russians and American/British? Clearly in our History of the Nazi there was a large difference between those in the regularly German Army and the S.S. Corps. A regular could well have been fighting to what in his mind was to save a country that had just gone thought a horrible depression at the hands of the Allied powers from WW1. German was starving at the hands of France/Britain so a good Germans decides to knock it over. Yes Nazi’s undoubtedly infected the whole.
In any case its silly to bring that up at all.
Peacemaker:
‘standing up the to military’, no they stood up to you. They ‘stood up’ to civilian leadership. You think everyone in the military is just raring to go to some horrible country and kill people. I assure you most would be just as happy to collect pay and do war games. Its allot nicer, the rest of the world isn’t very nice. Europe is fun as a tourist and hanging out most military people have no desire to live there. I’m have no idea how you figure ‘anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist’ could in anyway alleviate war. I just don’t know how you can even get to that conclusion.
I have to ask you, if some came to your house who had more physical force then you and took all stuff, perhaps your life. Are you as an ‘anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist’ going to roll over and die for them?
LouisTully:
Texas is the largest recruitment state (almost double the next closest), so it’s a natural that some would be from Texas.
The much larger issue at hand is that a country can’t survive a military that acts independently. Mind you there is fundamental difference between A) Military Refusing to Fight and B) Military Coup. Both cases you have the military deciding it doesn’t have to listen to civilian leadership and can act as it pleases.
Art Gypsy:

Its hard to say Vietnam was on the whole ill-moral. Defiantly ill-fought, but the actually not so clear cut.

I offer as an example of the Korean war. Same reasoning, stop the spread of communism. We fought war, and gave up half way thought it for a half peace because it was we were all tired after WW2. So since that time we have left some what 50-60 million people to suffer there for the last 60 years. Starving, continues propaganda to the point most people under 40 don’t know a ‘real world’ is even out there. And don’t forget the weapons they sell to other countries and the looming threat of a new war with South Korea where most of their population would likely be killed in the first few hours, from chemical weapons and artillery.

So for Iraq we had the same looming problem, we knew Iran was working on Nukes, and we really thought Iraq was too. If you look at the horror of the Iran Iraq War understanding WMDs as a reason to enter Iraq made allot of sense. Pair that with the importance of the energy in the region, historic connections to Israel, current ones with many of the other gulf states, and Turkey. Also the unique issues of Iran’s government make it possibly more dangerous then North Korea because there is some question if the leaderships interpretation of the Muslim Faith.

I’d also like to toss out that Vietnam is doing about the best of any of the countries who had a ‘won’ Hot War in the Cold War. Others being North Korea, Afghanistan and the Congo. It merits some research.

Lastly, putting something like this on Memorial Day seems tactless however it is likely the best time to do so. It brings attention that these people aren’t deserving of the same respect. I don’t know who choice it was but I’d say it was perfect timing.

The true WAR CRIMINALS are AWOL bush, cheney, rummy and all the other republican chickenhawks who pushed this unnecessary and illegal war of choice based on LIES in the first place and are masturbating at the thought of sending OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN to die in their WAR CRIMES.

Modernist Architect:

I have to ask the same question of you I posed to Peacemaker. Say there are no Police, and a few people come to the sudden realization that if they have more force they take what want from you.

In what way dose saying ‘I’m not going to fight’ stop anyone from fighting you? Without force there is no order in the world. People are no so dumb that they just abandon a facet of themselves to relegate themselves to a second-rate life. If the South Koreans had no military, and no one was going to step in to protect them North Korea would take them over right there.

The countries of the world with little, to no military are that way because they have worked out deals to avoided those costs and put them on someone else. Usually the U.S. Costa Rica has no military, but it has an agreement that the U.S. will defend it. So they don’t have to Uncle Sam will come in and save them. Europe figured that out in the late 50s and gutted their militaries. 2008 with Russians little outing in Georgia its testing the waters. Again what really stops Russia for going back to the ‘good old days’?

That’s why you see Poland clamoring for US support, it knows Western Europe (save Britain) doesn’t have the ability, and even less so the, Will to stop Russia. If they got back the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania, suddenly Europe has lost 30-40% of its Fuel. Makes for a cold winter.

You know who has the most robust national military service laws? Finland, socialist happy go luck Finland because they are aware of Russia and remember what they had to do in WW2. 80% of all males completely a tour.

So, again I just don’t understand peoples logic of someone removing all the other players and unilaterally decide on conflict. The variables that you and many today seem to miss is there is no US for the US to fall back on. China and India are not going to behave the way toward the US that the US behaved toward Europe. Russia had one guy running Presidential who was campaign on getting Alaska back. The non-western world doesn’t play by the same rules that we all have.

Its silly to think if we just go de-militarized the rest of the world will too. People we supported in Afghanistan turned around and fought us because they saw it in there best interest to do that. That’s not going to change.

Startled and impressed that you published this article. It provokes really strong reactions from those who served in the military and those who love them and support them, particularly if the families have suffered a great loss as a result of their service, and many have!
I tried to make the point once that many of us are "veterans" (small v) of the war in Vietnam in that we were profoundly affected by the war and may have made serious sacrifices expressing our resistance to it and refusal to fight in it. So yes, peace "fighters" were indeed a certain kind of warrior. BUT, I don't agree we should try to recognize that alongside honoring military veterans, either on Memorial Day or Veterans Day.

We do need a way to recognize those who died or sacrificed in the cause of peace -- separate from honoring the military.

Maybe the ultimate monument to peace is those people and institutions who work hard to build and grow during the peace times and study ways to avoid armed conflict in the future. We all need to learn and teach peaceful respectful conflict resolution and remain alert to the continuous investment in and obsession with expensive weapons. Those who have served in the military bring extremely valuable contributions to the discussion of peace and conflict resolution without death, wounding and annihilation.
I think it's interesting that one of the finest generals in US history and a US President pointed out the dangers of the military industrial complex -- Dwight D Eisenhower.

Let's just listen to each other patiently and with respect. And learn to express ourselves without insulting each other.

Maybe Buffalo Rising can publish a commentary from white supremacists on Martin Luther King Jr's Birthday. Just for the sake of commentary and counterpoint.

Obama made his speech to commemmorate his speaking out against the war five years ago, days before Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York and former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards -- both now Democratic presidential rivals -- voted for the war. Obama spoke today before hundreds of students at DePaul University. They interrupted him often with applause.

“The first thing we need to do is end this war,” Obama said. “And the right person to end it is someone who had the judgment to oppose it from the beginning.”

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/583930,obama100107.article

Why isn't the war over yet? Why couldn't someone who won the Nobel Peace Prize for outstanding diplomacy able to bring an end to this unjust conflict? Why has Obama backed away from ending the war before more young men die in combat?

Many have commented that it is tactless to run this article on Memorial Day. The fact is that the Hinzman hearing just happened this past Tuesday and an article was written and published. There may have been a tactical decision on the part of the writer, but I think it's just the way the events occurred.

That being said, I applaud Buffalo Rising by not being intimidated by militarist thinking that is pervasive in our society. The issue is relevant and should be considered at this time. Many of the soldiers who died in these wars died because of the deceit by their commander in chief, right down the line. The military misrepresented what was happening over there intentionally. People who read knew this; I can't believe our leaders didn't know this.

The GIs who signed up to support our country when they thought they were being told the truth, left when they realized the lies and what we were really doing.

If you found out that we were occupying a country illegally, it is your legal duty to refuse. It is in our constitution. (See Principle IV: http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/390?OpenDocument )

There are those who seem to think that an 18 or 19 year old knows how s/he will react to slaughtering innocent civilians when s/he signs up. The reality of picking up a dead baby you just killed, whether it was on purpose or by accident, should impact severely on a soldier unless s/he is some kind of psychopath. I wish I knew what I was doing before I joined the Marines, went to Vietnam and proceeded to participate in the terrorizing and killing of innocent people. I live with that regret every day. In truth the wonderful men and women have been reacting, but they all handle it differently. That is why we keep breaking the previous records for suicides by these same people.

Whether they choose to end their lives or end their participation in the military they are still GIs who have served their country. Many of the resisters have been to Iraq and Afghanistan several times; most of them at least once. We should be assisting them instead of locking them up.

If a soldier loses a foot in the war, many of us agree that help should help rehab this individual. If a soldier loses his/her ability to kill and or terrorize people, we lock them up. The ones who share their feelings publicly are given greater punishments. (If you are court-martialed for a year or more, It counts as a felony on your record. This prevents them from voting in some states or returning to Canada to visit the families they became part of.)

It is ironic that the Canadian government kicks out deserters who refused to fight in Iraq when in fact the government refuse to send troops. If they thought it was wrong, why do they hold the deserters to their "contract" and send these people across the border to certain prison?

Memorial Day is a good time to pay our respects to the men and women who have paid high prices including death serving in the military. It seems like a good time to talk about it. The people responsible for wrongly taking lives of our GIs should be held responsible.

Either way we should be demanding the government provide the needs of the returning GIs and work to end these illegal wars.

One additional thought. Somebody pointed out that the writer was arrested as part of the Buffalo 9, They mention it like it was a bad thing. The reality is it helped to educate people about the war and the military's role in it. The unfortunate comment on our society is that it was only the Buffalo 9 instead of the Buffalo 9,000. Many fewer people would have died if more people resisted. Thank you Bruce. I wish I knew you back then. And thanks for signing your name, unlike many of your detractors.

Thanks to everybody for participating in this Memorial Day discussion,
Russell Brown

I'm just real glad these folks aren't in this country anymore. We have enough idiots bringing this nation down. And I'm real glad I didn't die in Afghanistan so these idiots could ruin a day to remember me. I think there is too much talk about military matters from people that have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE(pardon the CAPS yelling) (including our president, whom I support)of anything about the military.

I think some more folks need to man up and go talk to a recruiter.

I wholeheartedly disagreed with the direction this nation was going. But it's pretty hard to prove your allegiance when you've never laid it all on the line. Take a trip to your recruiter and get informed.

How about we hear from some family members of KIA's. What's your take?

Nice job Bruce Beyer. I hope your proud of yourself, posting this crap on the day before Memorial Day. Who the hell is approving content at BRO? Were the editors too busy doing some trendy piece of crap regarding the color of some house in Johnson Park?

To all the "war resistors", think twice next time before signing on the dotted line. Were you not aware of what the pros and cons were?

Al-Qaeda are vetern's/soldiers as well. Let's not forget to memorialize them hippies. Maybe we can build them an urban, organic, local farm tilled to the curb.

This post is absolutely sickening.

Almost as sickening as BRO bragging at some point in the future that it got "XX" number of comments.

I have lost what little respect I had for this POS website.

Sickening - tasteless - you name it and this is it.

Regardless of your thoughts on free speech, there should be some small amount of respect not to post something like this during a holiday weekend. Call them what you will, but at least have the sensibility not to engage in this discussion on a day like Memorial Day.

And to call them veterans... its just beyond the pale BRO...

This used to be a site that I would go out of my way to direct people towards - one that I felt captured a certain positive tide of feeling going on in this city. I don't even know what I should think after reading this...

Now BRO - don't hide behind the "we just wanted to encourage discussion" line of crap - just pull the posting and apologize like you shuold have done 18+ hours ago...

Shame on you BRO...

jimmy>"this is about those who have deserted the military and their sworn duty to protect and serve our country"

It's even a step further. It's people who did that then try to use Canada's refugee system to avoid accepting even the slightest penalty in the U.S.

Can any supporters of Hinzman and others explain how it's honorable, respectable, or courageous to try what they are in Canada instead of standing up for their beliefs here?

If they each signed up for 3 or 4 years in the army, why is a year or less in a U.S. jail something Canada should help these guys avoid even while Canadian enlistees are sent to fight in Afghanistan?

One thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history...