City May 2, 2010 12:15 AM

Another Church at Risk of Demo

WCPerspective 28

Spruce Street's First German Baptist Church faces an uncertain future. Demolition of the circa-1869 structure was denied by the Buffalo Preservation Board last Thursday. Owners of the near east side church want to demolish the structure after being cited by City inspectors.

David Torke at Fix Buffalo has been following the story:

The structure appears to be in good condition (see additional pictures here). Some bricks on the bell tower need to be re-pointed, a rear brick shed needs attention. Roof damage behind the bell tower became a hole at some point during the winter. Next door, the parsonage sits straight and appears to be in good structural condition.

It's been reported that the current owner - Trinity Baptist Church located at 2930 Bailey Avenue in Buffalo, NY - has no plan for the church and adjacent parsonage as they no longer have the funds to maintain the property. In July 2008 they plead guilty to a number of Housing Court Violations involving two concurrent cases (#'s 635/2008 & 1319/2008). Part of the plea deal involves paying for a private demolition of 41 & 43 Spruce Street, the church religious structures they left behind.

Declining neighborhood churches such as the Spruce Street church exist all over the city, especially on the East Side. While larger religious structures such as Transfiguration Church crumble and strikingly significant parts of the city's cultural and religious life such as St. Gerard's are prepped for dismemberment and shipment South - support for the Spruce Street church, a totally scalable project, remains silent.

Torke asks:

So, what should be done? Is it too late? Spruce Street is steps from an emerging downtown housing market. Should this church be sent off in pieces to the landfill or re-purposed and become one of the city's coolest new loft conversion projects?

Photos by David Torke @ Fix Buffalo

Bing Streetside

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Comments

28 Comments Leave a comment

jimmy

May 2, 2010 8:11 AM

Do options exist beyond a "trendy loft conversion"? There isn't much of an appetite for trendy housing in the area, so what else do you have in mind? Maybe there is a parish in Arizona looking for a church.

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Lego1981

May 2, 2010 12:52 PM

Why not have trendy lofts here? If you want a turn around in any neighborhood, it has to start somewhere? It started with one or downtown and then in the west side and now we have some on Broadway near Fillmore. Why not here too?

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summersh

May 2, 2010 9:48 AM

i agree, although it seems that most of the new lofts are being filled i dont think we need to keep building more, is there a need to actually save this building? not every old building can be kept standing in this city. i would see nothing wrong with demolition if new homes were built in its place. if it really has to be saved why not put some moderately priced apartments, given that we are one of the poorest cities in the country maybe we can build some new apartments that are under 1200 per month

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ReginaldQMerriweatherIV

May 2, 2010 9:56 AM

It's true.

What this city really needs is to subsidize more housing for all that demand for city living.

http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/05/02/1037446/the-housing-shuffle.html

http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/05/02/1037833/map-where-subsidized-homebuyers.html

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replied to summersh

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whatever

May 2, 2010 1:26 PM

That map in Reggie's 2nd link shows very well what some have been saying all along.

It would be interesting if the Buffalo News made a similar map of where people moved from to occupy new subsidized apts such downtown lofts, Artspace, etc. Probably making that kind of map wouldn't be as easy because for renters there aren't property ownership records to look through. But there's no reason to think it wouldn't also show most movement within the city.

From the first link:
"...All the movement within the city — people moving into subsidized homes, others moving into the homes those residents moved from, and others then moving into the homes those occupants left — can ultimately create vacant housing in the city’s most distressed neighborhoods, other housing advocates said.
“Where is that person coming from? In all likelihood a more distressed neighborhood,” said Charles Thomas, who served as Buffalo’s deputy planning director before becoming the Rochester city planner in 2006. “There is a finite demand for housing in the city. It’s creating more vacant housing.” ..."

Sounds like what I've said to pitbull about how if another few thousand mid-priced subsidized (by IDA funds, etc.) apts are created downtown for a new residential neighborhood there as some want to see, the subsidies would shift residents away from other parts of the city.

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replied to ReginaldQMerriweatherIV

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BuffaloNiagaraPlanner

May 3, 2010 9:16 AM

I immediately thought of your posts on BRO when I saw this story in The News. The validation must feel satisfying. If we want housing to be sustainable in the City, better policy is needed. Here's an idea using the analogy of sustainability in the logging industry - when you cut a tree down, you plant a new tree. Perhaps we need a similar model for housing - for every new housing unit that is created, whether it is subsidized or not, an older vacant unit unlikely to be rehabbed or incapable of being rehabbed must be demolished. For subsidized housing, the City must demolish a unit. For unsubsidized housing, the developer must contribute to the City's demolition fund. I know that's not entirely realistic, but it's the kind of outside-the-box thinking that is needed.

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Armchair MBA

May 3, 2010 9:58 AM

Whatever>"

"Sounds like what I've said to pitbull about how if another few thousand mid-priced subsidized (by IDA funds, etc.) apts are created downtown for a new residential neighborhood there as some want to see, the subsidies would shift residents away from other parts of the city."

Apples to oranges comparing the BN expose on the E Side singles with Downtown lofts. Those singles are subsidized to the point where they can be priced comparably with existing units in the city whereas most of the DT units are priced well above the neighborhoods you claim they draw residents from.

Common sense says people dont leave 600-800/mo flats to live in 1000-2000/ mo lofts.

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whatever

May 10, 2010 10:06 PM

"people dont leave 600-800/mo flats to live in 1000-2000/ mo lofts."

I pointed out the two big flaws in that the last time you said it: Quite a few subsided new residential units downtown have rents less than the $1000-1200 range you like to refer to. Also, moves need not be direct to have the effect of subsidized new residential creating more vacancies in other parts of Buffalo.

If new subsidized units are occupied by people who would otherwise live in Buffalo, then the effect is as the Buffalo News described.

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Armchair MBA

May 10, 2010 11:09 PM

Whatever>" new residential units downtown have rents less than the $1000-1200 range you like to refer to."

Wrong. There are plenty of units under the 1000 mark but the ones that have received the 20% tax credit that you complain about typically go for much more. The listings on Buffalo Place's website should back that up.

http://www.buffaloplace.com/apartments

Generally speaking, the newer units downtown draw residents from comparably priced units at upscale suburban complexes (spindrift, windsong etc). Your theory that that $1000-2000 month apartment draw residents living in other city neighborhoods paying $600-800 just doesn't make sense.

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summersh

May 2, 2010 11:41 AM

i never said anything about the homes or apartments being subsidized, but the i just feel that a lot of these new apartments/ lofts are priced out of a lot of peoples means and the homes built could just match the size and scale of the current neighborhood

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scarman

May 2, 2010 2:52 PM

If you look at the Google street view there are 2 dilapidated structures on that block. The house next door, and then the next one down on the left. Behind it are brick newer builds, and the remaining houses on Spruce are in decent shape. This building should be given away to someone who has a plan, any plan. It could be a church, meeting place, small theater, housing. Maybe offices for a developer intending to fill the empty lots in the neighborhood with new housing. This street is not lost.

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david(fixBuffalo)

May 2, 2010 3:41 PM

@ Scarman - one of those houses is now demolished. The other, right next door to the church, the former parsonage appears to be structurally solid. It's owned by the same congregation that seeks to demolish the Spruce Street Church. Their request to demolish the parsonage was also denied.

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benfranklin

May 2, 2010 7:11 PM

Thanks for bringing some attention to this property. Had the church been given the ok to demo, would anyone have an estimate on what that would have cost?

For the sake of argument, let's say $40,000 for both. As odd as it may sound, maybe the city needs a program where they let somebody 'walk' on a property if they find a new owner, with a plan, and the original owner contributes something less than 100% of the demo cost to the new owner to get a new start on things.

I agree it's not an easy project. But if they put 30,000 in a fund to be used for the building, it begins to make a bit more sense ( I didn't say a lot of sense). Afterall, they'd be willing to demo and be done, why not offer 75% of the demo price to a new owner? Have they actually tried to give the building away, or have they just soured on the thing completely?

I drove this area before the last tax sale and didn't think it was all that bad. Maybe it's time to take another look.

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replied to david(fixBuffalo)

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jolopy

May 2, 2010 7:34 PM

I think I see where your going with your Idea. If a building is sent to housing court and the owner is going to be forced or willing to demo the property, that cost be it 75% or any such percentage should be put towards the needed funds to secure (as in those solid metal full window sheets, not plywood and nails) and towards fixing or patching any exterior damage that would cause any further damage. At one time under the classifieds on BRO, they had a company that put what looked like armor plating on the windows that were screwed to the house. That would be sufficient to secure a home, while any other funds could be used to either begin fixing the places interior or exterior. I think that may give someone more incentive to take on a project like this if they can use the cost of what the demo would have been to begin work on the house while at the same time having it secure so no further damage would happen. I think more people would be interested in picking up a fixer upper that if this method could be done. If that makes any sense to anyone i would be surprised.

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benfranklin

May 6, 2010 12:40 PM

I expect you'll hear more about this story. All is not as it appears with the 'poor' congregation. Look at some point, I hope, for a follow up by WCPerspective, or Dave at FixBuffalo.

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scarman

May 2, 2010 10:50 PM

I think the house next door needs to go. I think it would be much easier to market the church without a rundown house next door, especially if there are stained glass windows on that side. That house is blocking the light from coming in.

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replied to david(fixBuffalo)

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TheRicker

May 2, 2010 5:36 PM

I think there are a number of artists and musicians that would interested in inexpensive work space, or co-working space for freelancers.

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jimmy

May 2, 2010 6:50 PM

In 20 years, there have been very few (if any) artists who have stepped up to take ownership of a church as an inexpensive workspace. The fact is that upkeep and maintenance is definitely not inexpensive or easy. Heating a space this large is extremely expensive, the entire structure is energy inefficient. Re-pointing bricks, a new roof, foundation repair, replacing stolen pipes, repairing water damage, and keeping the place secure. These all cost a lot of money. It is nice to think that some artist is going to revive this building, but history has proven that this doesn't happen very often.

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On Richmond

May 3, 2010 9:12 AM

This is just one of two churches in danger in this area. The second, Salem Evangelical Reformed Church, is at 413 Sherman St near Sycamore. Architecturally, it is more distinct than 1st German Baptist. Both are important pieces of this city's history and both are in danger. See this link: http://www.buffaloah.com/how/17/17.11/17.11.html

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dfishmuse

January 27, 2011 6:12 PM

Trinity Baptist Church at 41 Spruce Street is an historical architectural structure and sacred space that also contains memories of a rich cultural legacy for Buffalo's African American religious community.

Like many congregations, it had a blend of the "notorious" as well as the civic minded. Trinity's deacons in the 1960s were part of a city wide organization called the Deacon's Alliance. They provided a rural recreational area for African American church retreats. The farm served as respite for adults and young people.

Trinity's youth participated in the National Baptist Convention as well as the regional Great Lakes Baptist Association. Several of its young people held regional offices. The congregation interacted with many of Buffalo's area churches in Christian harmony.

During the 1960s riots, Trinity's pastor at that time, Rev. S.L. Hargrove, walked Buffalo's angry streets, bullets whistling past his head, pleading in Christian anguish for people to calm their spirits, return to their homes,and seek peace in the face of violence.

Trinity's congregation also avidly supported its youth's academic aspirations with an Educational Fund. In addition, during the 50s and 60s, Trinity's congregation nurtured future doctors, nurses, K-12 teachers, writers, military leaders, musicians, college professors, city political activists, and ministers--sadly many of whom left Buffalo in the 1970s to seek a future elsewhere. Perhaps Trinity should contact some of those professionals for assistance.

Trinity Baptist church is an architectural structure with a rich historical legacy.

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replied to On Richmond

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Meliq

May 3, 2010 10:08 AM

It would be interesting to be able to convert this to some sort of community building, maybe with a commercial kitchen for rent, similar to the Masss. Ave. Project. Local activists, comm. groups, schools, churches, artists, could rent the space and entrepreneurs can rent out the kitchen for food businesses. I have no idea who'd be in charge of running the place but we need to start thinking creatively and community oriented when trying to utilize some of these "difficult/unique" spaces.

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LMT

May 3, 2010 12:09 PM

Not every old building should be saved, but don't we already have enough shovel-ready sites in the city of Buffalo? Tearing down a structurally sound building does the neighborhood a disservice. The neighborhood will gain far more value through adaptive reuse. This building isn't hurting anyone, it's not falling apart, why should it be torn down? The scars left behind by the wrecking ball last generations, and if there is not firm commitment to build new, that is exactly what will happen if this building is torn down. Just look just about any downtown street and you'll see the destruction of the streetscape and that is why downtown is in the economic condition it is in!

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Positive

May 3, 2010 1:05 PM

Great location for an adult store, I'm not sure you would even have to clean the pews.

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grad94

May 3, 2010 7:26 PM

i see karl malign has joined christy-lou-queen city in the revolving pseudonym game.

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Armchair MBA

May 3, 2010 7:37 PM

He prefers being called Krusty.

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TaxiManSteve

May 7, 2010 2:05 PM

Maybe it's time to demo Buffalo... Or two thirds of it...clearly the population will not support the aging city...And New York state taxpayers are getting tired of subsidizing it...

Time for a CSS, a committee of strategic shrinkage be called for, sort of like the US's military base re-alienment commission that was successful in the 1980s and 90s.

Buffalo is become like Detroit, a national embarrassment...

Time to turn the lights out.

Steven Lindsey
State rep
Keene, NH

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RPreskop

May 10, 2010 5:57 PM

This old church appears to be in fairly good condition and it is structurally sound. To demolish a perfectly good building like this clearly makes no sense. These are the old buildings that need to be saved and a viable reuse found for them. Now this is one old landmark that should be saved and sealed up for now until a viable new use is found.

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benfranklin

May 10, 2010 8:21 PM

This situation is not as it first appears. The church is in good shape, better neighborhood than you'd expect (no laughing). I approached the church about 'helping them out'... with the property.

At some point, I was told they aren't interested in selling the property, because they plan on building on the site. No idea what kind of building...lot's of new homes in the neighborhood. I expect they'll deny this.

This church isn't going to fall down anytime soon. Hate to say it... but this one has a suspicious fire in it's future.

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