Real Estate March 17, 2010 9:05 AM

Questions Start as Law Firm Eyes Donovan Building Move

Questions Start as Law Firm Eyes Donovan Building Move

While Larry Quinn told the Erie Canal Harbor Development Corporation (ECHDC) Board last week that Benderson Development's involvement with Canal Side was at a "crossroads," ECHDC Chairman Jordan Levy characterized the chances of Benderson not being the master developer as "slim" in a Business First interview.   Downtown insiders say Benderson remains interested in the project, but the firm's role will likely be greatly diminished.

If Benderson pulls back as expected and if Bass Pro never signs, then what?  Without a large retail anchor as a year-round shopping draw, there will be no need for thousands of square feet of ancillary retail space.  The back-up plan is to seek developers for individual development parcels while moving forward with the publicly funded canal, green space, market hall and parking ramps. 

After almost a decade of touting Bass Pro as the necessary draw for the proposed $300 million development, expect something a lot less grand, and a lot less expensive if a replacement anchor isn't found and parcels are farmed out to individual developers.  One block is in particular demand already.  Sources say there is a deal in the works for redeveloping the vacant Donovan Building.  An insider deal according to some.

DSC_0153b.JPGLaw firm Phillips Lytle, who happens to be handling real estate negotiations and environmental review issues for ECHDC, is in talks to move to the publicly-owned Donovan Building one block away.  Phillips Lytle's current lease for 85,000 sq.ft. of space spread over six floors at One HSBC Center expires in 2013.  The firm has been actively seeking a lease extension or new home and has entertained proposals from several property owners and developers.

"There's a 90 percent chance of Phillips Lytle leaving HSBC," says a downtown source.  "The firm is fighting with the building landlord over service charges, their relationship is strained."

Ciminelli Development appears to have the inside track to snag the law firm.  Ciminelli's plan is to redevelop the Donovan State Office Building with Phillips Lytle as the anchor tenant.

The vacant 148,000 sq.ft. building at 125 Main Street was to be developed by Benderson Development for a mix of retail, office, housing and other uses as part of the larger Canal Side project. 

While Ciminelli is said to be the front-runner to obtain developement rights for the building, Uniland Development sees an opportunity as well.  The company is also interested in the site with Phillips Lytle as a tenant.  Neither firm owns the property.   ECHDC was given title to the circa-1962 building from the New York State Office of General Services in November 2007.

"This insider deal will pull Phillips Lytle out of HSBC Center and into a heavily subsidized building," says one downtown developer.  "It is not a private development deal; they are proposing to use a publicly-owned building to poach a prestigious tenant, thus undermining HSBC Center.  The Donovan developer will be undercutting the market at taxpayer expense."

"Phillips Lytle won't even need to hire a mover, they can use dollies," says the developer.  "They [ECHDC] are doing damage control and will spin this as a win.  They have too much time and taxpayer money invested in this.  There is trouble in paradise."

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What is the problem with the largest law firm in the land moving to a vacant building? Hopefully they will do something with the facade. Won't the state or who ever owns the property make money on this deal?

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"This insider deal will pull Phillips Lytle out of HSBC Center and into a heavily subsidized building," says one downtown developer. "It is not a private development deal; they are proposing to use a publicly-owned building to poach a prestigious tenant, thus undermining HSBC Center. The Donovan developer will be undercutting the market at taxpayer expense."

That's the problem with it. How will the state make money when they handed over the title to the ECHDC? And ECHDC won't make money on it becuase they'll basically be giving the building away. As the insider points out Quinn, Levy, and all the other hobos are doing damage control.

replied to Chris
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I imagine the cost to completely gut and rehab the Donovan Building would be quite significant wouldn't it? Also, another building on the tax roll is more money in the city's coffers right? The deal would obviously be slanted in favor of the developer, but what else is new... anything to breathe new life into this eyesore through adaptive reuse is a win in my book.

replied to LouisTully
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Why does'nt Paladino get going on his COURT STREET TOWER now so this law firm can be his 'Anchor' tenent and a reason to build after years of delays.

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Well, partly because he can't compete economically with a subsidized shell such as this. It's cheaper to rehab the Donovan than to build from scratch.

replied to Lego1981
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This should trigger site plan and business plan re-design, before Canalside funding is finalized.

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The whole thing stinks. I'm just sick of it all. I never want to hear the words Bass Pro again. And I don't even blame them anymore. I blame the idiots running this show for Buffalo. My thoughts:

- What track record does Benderson have for developing in urban cores? Obviously they're great at putting a Target in North Buff and a Starbucks. But downtown?

- Who cares if there is no national retail anchor? Just like discussed the other day, I'd rather it parceled off to locals.

- Put a public rink there. The only guaranteed way to bring people to an area in this town. That or a Timmy Ho's.

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Large shopping center owners/developers often have "partnerships" with national and regional retail, restaurant and service chains. Where it becomes an issue:

1) The expansion plans of many otherwise fiscally healthy national chains are on hold until the economy warms up.

2) Urban lifestyle and destination centers typically have different tenants than a typical bog box center; usually branches of very prominent locals, and national chains with only one or two flagship stores in a smaller metropolitan area. Many of those national chains, such as Crate and Barrel, Z Gallerie, Container Store, Design Within Reach, and the like, normally don't have strong working relationships with the big box builders, and the demographics of the Buffalo region don't work for them. (Everywhere But Buffalo syndrome.) The retailers that normally go into a big box center, like Dots, Joann Fabrics, or Old Navy, usually don't locate in destination centers.

replied to LouisTully
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always good comments.

replied to Dan
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What experience does Benderson have in urban cores...I believe they did the Hampton Inn on Delaware. I'm not a big fan of Benderson, but that property is not to shabbly, except for the surface parking.

replied to LouisTully
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Did they do the Hampton? Regardless, one example? It's a fine addition, no doubt. But anyone with capital could have put a hotel at that busy intersection and said hey look I'm building downtown. I'm still doubtful of Bendersons urban record.

replied to The Boss
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Amazing, all the years of hoopla and now the big "master" plan is slowing breaking apart. Welcome to Buffalo, NY, would the last person to leave please turn of the light.

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No Benderson = a very good thing, they are the amongst slimiest developers in the COUNTRY. But... as long as Larry is involved it's not going anywhere. I'm sure the guy has made a fortune in local development but when it comes to developing something of this scale he just doesn't have what it takes to pull it off.

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Larry Quinn spearheaded the following Buffalo projects - Waterfront Village, Coca Cola Fiel, HSBC Arena. Pretty good track record to me. What big projects have you brought to fruition?

replied to 4matic
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It might not have much to do with development, other than him generally being an idiot. But I could care less what's in his portfolio, he's a disease to the Buffalo Sabres. Him and Tom Golisano may comprise the dumbest hockey people who work for the sport this side of the Mason-Dixon.

replied to Sally
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I usually like your comments, but the Sabres aren't doing too badly. I'll take their product.

replied to LouisTully
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Aha, you're right. On the surface of course. Or if you look at the standings and not what they do on the ice (which is rest on their laurels while Miller stands on his head). BUT... this entire season - from the start of free agency last summer through now - has seen a completely absent Tom Golisano and Larry Quinn. I don't know if Ruff/ Regier finally told them to stay the F away or what, but Quinn doesn't know up from down in hockey, and neither does Golisano. I won't dispute his business achievements; but knowing hockey isn't the same as knowing business. Warren Buffet might be wealthy as God; doesn't mean he could win a Stanley Cup.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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"What big projects have you brought to fruition?" Are you five years old? I'm neither a developer, nor am I in competition with Laryy Dimm. Perhaps scale was the wrong word choice, he doesn't seem to possess a creative mind to hash out the nuances of this project. Yes he secured funding to get the giant blob built, at a time when money was much more free flowing than today. Waterfront Village looks like UBs Amherst campus, & I think you're confusing Quinn for Kevin Costner when talking about the baseball field.

replied to Sally
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In this economy, what kind of idiot would think that a company like Bass Pro would be expanding? Anywhere? Buffalo? I say if Bass Pro is not coming to Buffalo, yahoo! Let's invest in locals.

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What's the local equivalent of Bass Pro? Do you think Johnson's Country Store, Lockport Outdoor or Buffalo Gun Center is going to open a 200,000 square foot store in Canal Side, much less anywhere in the region?

replied to majove
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I assume majove is begging the question of whether we really need to have a 200,000 square foot hunting store in downtown Buffalo.

replied to Dan
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I think you're right, and the answer is . . . no, thank you.

replied to JSmith
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"If Benderson pulls back as expected and if Bass Pro never signs, then what?"

IF!
Buffalo is full of "IF's".

Can anybody get straight answers?

Blah, blah, blah. It's all just talk around here.

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When Wal-Mart opens their store on Sheridan Drive and Bailey Avenue in Amherst (the old Hills/Ames site), they're going to close their old store on Niagara Falls Boulevard just north of the 290. The Home Depot that shares the site with the existing Wal-Mart will also probably relocate. Expect Bass Pro to move into this vacated, highly visible site. You heard it here first.

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Law firm Phillips Lytle, who happens to be handling real estate negotiations and environmental review issues for ECHDC, is in talks to move to the publicly-owned Donovan Building one block away.

co-incidence? I think not. I thought this entire project was supposed to benefit the community, the residents of the City, not the players involved!!

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I've said all along, "What is Plan B" if Bass Pro doesn't come? I've also asked, "Except for some waterways, where is the meat of the plan?

I guess this is answer # 1. Lets lease the space at less than market value. It's the same businesses in Buffalo just shuffling around town looking for the best deal.

The good news is that as I wander around Canalside a couple of years from now and find myself in need of legal aid, help will be close by.

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One other thing...make sure Phillips Lytle gets the tops floors of the building and give them nice ceiling to floor windows on the south side so they have nice views of the waterfront.

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I'd rather see a 'Dillards', 'H&M', 'ZARA', come downtown before a Bass Pro.

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I would love to see IKEA here!

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talk about an island in a sea of parking... sheeeesh

replied to Crest88
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Ikea: two years ago, Ingvar said "never" for a Buffalo area location. NEVER. Get it out of your heads. Ikea is not coming to Buffalo; not now, not ever.

Dillard's: Upstate New York is one of the few markets they're not in, and they have no plans on entering due to the presence of Bon Ton. They also don't do downtowns; they pulled out of Tower City in Cleveland several years ago.

Zara: still in expansion mode in the US, right now mostly in lifestyle centers and upscale malls in A-list and B-list cities.

H&M: Everywhere in New York State but here; they even have a store in Utica. They're concentrating on westward expansion right now. A good fit, but I fear like so many chains, they also have Everywhere But Buffalo syndrome.

replied to Crest88
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But, Dan, have we tried MARKETING to them?

replied to Dan
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It won't be that effective. National retailers have strict formulas they follow when determining new locations, along with a minimum anticipated return on investment. They seldom waver from that formula.

Buffalo was, at one time, _the_ perfect location for heavy industry according to classic urban geography theory; perfectly situated between raw material supplies and large markets, a break in bulk point formed by the convergence of several forms of transportation, abundant supplies of fresh water, and a nearby fall line as a bonus.

Now, many retailers look at their own factors when determining where to place stores. They're looking for a convergence of a growing population, a critical mass of high-income households, the right age groups, the right education level, and so on. To many retailers, a location in Buffalo is the equivalent of an 1890s industrialist considering Albuquerque for a steel mill site. We're that far off the beaten path, numbers-wise. Oddball liquor laws don't help; otherwise, we might have at least rumors of Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, Costco and World Market considering sites in the area by now.

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The only way wny can hope to land an IKEA is for our community to agree to get rid of all of our bubble awnings, "oops" painted delis, non-masonry dumpster enclosures, out of context wrought iron porches, and most importantly, our "flat A". Only when we embrace the highest of high style, like communities in suburban Cleveland, will that store consider us. Until then we will have to do with normal furnature and the shameful status of being non-Cleveland-like.

replied to Dan
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I like very much the idea of parceling out Canal Side to individual developers, but I want to see mixed use development. I want there to be some public access in and around the buildings. I don't at all like the idea of the publicly owned Donovan building becoming a private law office HQ. It's a great idea for them. I fail to see how the public much benefits.

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What other building could house HSBC? Maybe the entirety of the Main Place Tower?

Or do you think they would begin shifting out of the Buffalo area altogether?

replied to biniszkiewicz
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I dont know enough about HSBC operations in the building or about the property owner.

I will say that building the tower directly over Main Street was a huge mistake separating all of downtown Main Street from any view of the waterfront.

I will say that at this point the HSBC Tower is no longer state of the art Class A office space.

I will also say that Buffalo is very low rates of vacant Class A office space downtown and a new office tower is long overdue and encouraged.

I will also say that if the law firm was unhappy with the building and the property management then they would be shopping anyway and if it wasnt the Donovan Building then it could very likely have been the un-built Court Street Tower.

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My guess is they'd issue an RFP for a new build. Or just pull up stakes and head for Manhattan. I think they'd act like they were leaving Buffalo, in any event, and they might.

I'd heard two years ago from a very politically connected developer in NY that it was a done deal to close HSBC's Buffalo's operations and merge them with Manhattan's. One unified HQ made more sense, went the story. HSBC has big, pricey vacant space there. Laid off personnel at their disposal in NY would fill positions not relocated from Buffalo. They want their HQ to be in a more respectable cosmopolitan area and an area where competitive talent is more readily available, so went the claim. Manhattan gives them a deeper talent pool. We were losing them but we didn't know it yet. That was the tale so and so told me.

But that was a while ago and nothing has happened. On the other hand, their lease is not yet up (though it's cheap by Manhattan standards, and if they're eating rent for space they're not utilizing in Manhattan anyway, why not eat cheaper rent here instead?). Or maybe they're concerned about hard feelings and are waiting for a more graceful moment to say goodbye. I have no idea what to believe, but it sounds plausible. I consider the guy credible. I sold a Buffalo property he owned, and he owns a lot downstate and he was active politically. He's a player. He was an old guy, a braggart and combative (real estate development attracts them). But he was someone who definitely knew the right people. Maybe he had half a story; maybe the idea was backed by a losing faction in some corporate decision. Or maybe the crash made them rethink things. But possibly he knew exactly what he was talking about and we're just the last to know.

Regardless of their true intentions, HSBC might threaten to leave to at least see what kind of tax incentive package the community might throw their way. Nowadays companies feel like they're being duped if they miss out on the tax holiday packages. Everybody else gets free money, it seems. If you don't, you're a chump. That's the thinking. Might as well shake the tree and see what happens. What's the harm in asking? Where's that money?

Assuming they stay, my guess is that there would be some sweet heart tax break deal available to a developer for building them a new class A building somewhere downtown. And no, it will not be the Statler. I guarantee it.

remember: when the music stops, everybody grab a seat.

If they do go, and they might, it will really suck for us.

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I think HSBC's focus has changed since that conversation you had with the downstate developer 2 years ago. In October of last year HSBC sold its office tower in Manhattan and leased back only the first 11 floors of the building (thus eliminating much of their vacant space). I do agree that they'll likely continue to shift senior management to Manhattan due to the larger talent pool there and to keep the executive staff under one roof, however the entry and mid-level positions will likely stay in a "cheaper" market. In that regard, the biggest competitor to the jobs in Buffalo are HSBC's facilities in suburban Chicago. Most large companies though tend to not want all of their major operations centers in one specific geographic area - otherwise the whole company might shut down in the event of a natural disaster or the like (ie: Blizzard hits Buffalo, Chicago helps out, flood hit Chicago, Buffalo helps out). Chase is a prime example of this - only its executive staff is in NYC, the rest is scattered in operations centers across the country.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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I don't think there's been any talk of putting residential in this Canalside disaster. But would that be such a bad thing? Without residential it would be just as dead of an area as anywhere else in the city.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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I'd assume there is residential. The CBA agreement that the Common Council is pushing for contains language that 1/3 of all units be 'affordable'.

replied to LouisTully
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page 3 shows numbers for residential units. don't know if these numbers are current.

http://www.eriecanalharbor.com/pdf/CanalSide/DGEIS/Figures4-1-3through6-1-1.pdf

replied to LouisTully
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Hopefully whoever is the next anchor tenant in the HSBC Building doesn't paint their logo on top of the building.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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I wonder if this has anything to do with Seneca One raising the lease rates at OneHSBC Center?

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Here's a thought. The HSBC building would become a Hotel for a Casino built in the projected Canal Harbor Bass Pro site, Bass Pro would go to the vacated Home Depot building in Amherst, and HSBC would build their own new building at the current Statler Towers site. A casino could solve everything. It's the Indians to the rescue! No, I'm serious, it would work.

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I liked it right up until you said you were serious.

replied to RoyUnderwood
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LOL. Ok, I was just kidding.

replied to LouisTully
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...a side question: Are the article photos fairly recent? I was hoping that the plywood on the windows of the Donovan Bldg would be replaced (or at least painted?) before the out-of-town fans/media appear for the NCAA Tournament. To the passer-by, it looks less like progress, more like neglect.

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yeah, definitely. good point. totally bush league

replied to JaFaFa
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Business First Article - http://buffalo.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2010/03/15/daily27.html?surround=lfn

I wouldn't have any problem with it if they could move a resturant or something like that into the ground floor.

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It's great to hear that the Donovan building, a mid-century classic may be getting a full renovation. As for Bass Pro, it's time to cut the cord and move on. A lot of marketplace developments have succeeded without big box retailers but they do need some destination pizzaz so there should be a big push to find that ultimate mix of local, national and global brands. With the Canadian loonie trading at par with the dollar, why not lure some high-end to grab those sales?

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