City February 1, 2010 7:59 AM

Missing Teeth

Missing Teeth
Children with missing teeth are cute.  Six-year olds are supposed to have missing teeth. The toothless smile is charming, besides there is the promise of a new tooth in the not to distant future.  Adults with missing teeth are a different story.  They are not so attractive.  

Cities can have missing teeth too, and we are usually repulsed by the sight just like like we are upon seeing adults with less than a full collection of teeth.  Missing teeth in cities come in the form of streets that present a gap-toothed appearance as buildings are torn down for parking, or just plain empty lots, or even worse 'green space'.  

The most attractive and vibrant cities in America have very few gap-toothed streets.  They present beautifully composed streets that are defined by unified rows of buildings, working together to create urban outdoor rooms.  The human psyche is designed to be attracted to enclosure.  We also like continuity and visual stimulation. Great urban streets provide for these human desires.  It is no coincidence that the first thing you see upon entering Disney World is the ultimate depiction of the perfect urban street room.  Imagine Disney tearing down a few of those wonderful Victorian storefronts for some closer parking.

When a street is chopped up by emptiness, it loses its sense of place, and visually dead parking lots suck activity and life away.   The continuity of buildings uninterrupted by empty lots is extremely critical in forming great commercial retail streets.  There is not a single commercial street in Buffalo that has not been severely damaged by gap-toothed development of parking lots.  

The most successful sections of buffalo's walkable retail streets are those with the greatest concentration of contiguous buildings and storefronts.   Grant Street may be Buffalo's most complete street of contiguous commercial buildings.  It has great scale and a sense of enclosure too.  Unfortunately, its success is hampered by the crushing poverty that surrounds it.  However, even in its degraded state, its potential as a great street is evident.  Hopefully, recent successes and positive trends win out on Grant before the forces of neglect and car storage can damage this street irrevocably.

I wrote this post as an introduction to one of my favorite KunstlerCast episodes.  The KunstlerCast is a weekly online discussion of urban and social issues. In this episode titled, "KunstlerCast # 43: Missing Teeth in the Urban Fabric," author and social thinker James Howard Kunstler and his colleague Duncan Crary talk about the gapped tooth landscape that has overtaken so many American cities.  

Duncan lives in Troy New York, a small Albany area city with a degraded but still very charming historic city center.  The most interesting part of the conversation comes at the end of the podcast where Crary and Kunstler challenge the mayor of Troy on plans to create a new 'green space' adjacent to the main city square.  At first he is very defensive and protective of the proposed green space, believing that anything called "green space" has to be better than buildings. A few generations of brainwashing has America believing that buildings are an evil necessity. All of this is very relevant to Buffalo, and I hope you give it a listen.


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This article is right on the money and points out one of the issues that we can't easily hide when we tour people around our city. Buffalo's urban landscape is full of holes and missing teeth. Especially downtown and between Chipewa and Allentown. It also turns out to often not be cost effective for a developer to try to recreate anything attractive to replace a historic structure with new construction. That's why it is so important to at least leave the facades when a building has reached a demolition by neglect stage. I keep saying that rather than build any more towers in Buffalo, we need to be building pedestrian friendly structures of no more than 5 stories to fill in all of these missing teeth throughout our city. We also need to fill up the storefronts we have now. It's illegal to leave one vacant for more than six months but some property owners leave them vacant for years. Lower the lease, fix the building or sell it. Otherwise at least turn the spaces over for student and artist display space until something else is done.

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great article. its amazing (and saddening) when you suddenly notice that there is almost no street in Buffalo with buildings ON BOTH SIDES. its usually small strips with parking on the opposite side of the street.


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yes yes yes!

kunslter's argument in the past has been that americans developed a knee-jerk green-space reflex because we've had generations of new builds that degrade rather than improve the streetscape. the lex co-op ended a 40 year run when the only new builds on elmwood were one story cinderblock chain stores with front parking.

other streets have not been so lucky. broadway got a k-mart with the most colossally wasteful parking lot in all of buffalo and not having learned that lesson, added a shiny new strip plaza.

under the circumstances, a grassy lawn might seem preferable. but as kunslter might say, the answer to bad urbanism is not juniper ensembles, it is good urbanism.

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Did you show this story to the Mayor and his so called 'city planners'????? If not, you should.

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What city planners? Where's the planning director that the city tried to recruit in June with Brian Reilly's public announcement at the Congress for the New Urbanism conference in Denver in June, and the ads on the American Planning Association and CNU national Web sites in September? For a city its size, Buffalo has a practically nonexistent planning agency, and I'm beginning to think The Powers That Be want it that way. Among the economic development crowd, there's the belief that planners only get in the way of "progress".

Anyhow, related to what sin|ill wrote, try to find a signalized intersection in a city neighborhood business district that has storefronts built to the sidewalk on all four corners. Allen and Elmwood, Hertel and Sterling, and a couple of others are all that remain. Lots of once vibrant intersections have been ruined with a gas station or suburban context Wilson Farms on one corner.

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This is exactly why we need an over all city development plan.

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People dont even realize that they attracted to a fully built up streetscape.

Where do people like to live/shop/visit? Delaware in Kenmore, Main St in East Aurora, Hertel and Elmwood in Buffalo. They go to these places as tourists or pay a premium to live there, without necessarily understand what it is that draws them, they just know it feels right.

But its a simple thing: all it takes is placing parking behind storefronts - not in front.

Its such a simple solution, take Wegmans on Amherst St. If the structure was fronted to the street with parking in the rear, or even to the side, imagine the visual impact that could have had on the neighborhood.

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great example, with the Wegmans on amherst.

replied to al labruna
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It's good for the city to have a mix.

al>"Where do people like to live/shop/visit? Delaware in Kenmore"

Yes people like to shop on Delaware in Kenmore, and also obviously people also like to shop in the part of Delaware in N Buffalo which has a lot of convenient front parking instead of a built up streetscape.

You can make a great argument in favor of placing all parking behind storefronts across the whole city, county, state, nation, and world. But in the end, it's just an opinion you and some others share.

Some stores have left Elmwood and its built up streetscape to move to Delaware Ave with front parking. Fleet Feet is one and another is the natural foods store that used to be at Breckenridge. It's good that there's options.

As Bini has pointed this out here, Elmwood also benefits from having some parking lots intermixed with its streetscape. If all parking were forced to be in the back, EV businesses would probably have fewer customers.

al>"People dont even realize that they attracted to a fully built up streetscape."

And some people might not even realize they're attracted to parking lots accessible from the front, like Lexington co-op's lot or Wilson Farms lot, to use EV examples. There's many things people don't realize.

replied to al labruna
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I agree, it's good to have a mix, and each city needs an area like north Delaware for the big box stores, those who see otherwise ignore reality, but that doesn't mean that the neighborhoods established with Main Street design and planning principles need change to cater to that clientele. Again, the short term benefit of one business for an adjacent parking lot can come at the detriment of the entire block.

My disagreement is when you say "You can make a great argument in favor of placing all parking behind storefronts across the whole city, county, state, nation, and world. But in the end, it's just an opinion you and some others share." At what point does opinion become fact, only with numbers? There's an entire urban design and planning field of professionals whom I would argue state that "parking behind storefronts is better for the urban environment" is a fact. At some point, being a professional provides a person greater credence than "just opinion."

replied to whatever
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Whatever & Nick -

Im just saying people are attracted to traditional neighborhood design - Ive gotta ask, why the issue with rear (or side) lots? it uses the same amount of space as it would in front of a building, but allow for a more pedestrian and bike accessible streetscape.

Ill use Wegmans as an example again. If that store was turned 90 degrees and fronted to the curb on the same sized property it would be easy to maintain access from the front sidewalk or the rear lot. Who does it hurt to build that way? There would be no less spaces. Its basically a big box store that could have been integrated into the neighborhood with no real cost to the builder, but lots of upside for a good neighborhood design and accessibility.

Almost all big boxes could be constructed in the same manner.

Supporting front lots is supporting a car centric style of urban design - in a city where a large percentage of the population do not own cars - doesnt really have any advantages. Or am I missing something?

replied to nick
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Not just that but unlike a shopping plaza, a commercial strip is public space. It serves the function of a shopping center and a public park. Not many people can go for a casual walk through a traditional shopping plaza and feel welcome but lots of people stroll down a street likeElmwood to socialize.

These places that foster neighborhood social interaction and commerce ought to be encouraged and protected with laws that require new buildings to conform to the streetscape which includes accomodations for autos and pedestrians. Big box retail has its place too but even those places can be modified to fit in better with a pedestrian scale street.

replied to nick
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nick>"At what point does opinion become fact, only with numbers? There's an entire urban design and planning field of professionals whom I would argue state that "parking behind storefronts is better for the urban environment" is a fact."

No, I think it's more of a subjective gray area than the black/white way you make it sound. "Better" can mean different things to different people, in different contexts. Use of numbers doesn't mean there's only 1 right answer. Urban planning is more of a soft science. That isn't to disparage it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_science

I can say capitalism is better than socialism. I believe it, but don't consider it fact, even though there's a lot of experts who could make convincing arguments - even using numbers, and I might strongly agree with those arguments, but it still isn't fact if it's stated just with the word "better" as you did for your parking statement.

replied to nick
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Fact or not, I'm a little lost by your larger point. You start by agreeing a mix is good but than say the to-the-sidewalk-parking-in-back way is always "better". Sounds contradictory.

First, I'm not saying Buffalo should convert EV to look just like Delaware in N. Buffalo.

What I'm suggesting is to also consider "better" from a populist perspective instead of only as an expert. The tons of people who choose to shop at NB/Delaware non-urban stores with parking in front (btw, they're not all big-box stores, there's smaller stores too) is a good enough reason to say those are in some ways "better" to some people even if all urban planning experts in the world disagree with people having that preference.

Even on Elmwood, I'm sure there's some city residents who would shop less often at Wilson Farms or Lex Co-op if their parking was only in the back. So would it be "better" for EV if WF and the co-op had fewer customers and consequently had to carry less products or raise prices, or cut workers, etc.? In total would the outcomes improve the EV urban environment? To a purist, they might. Others might take a more balanced view.

replied to nick
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Its actually a false argument that you profer. Your assumption is that parking is the only thing that draws people and that the only way people want to lead there lives is through a car based economy. The fact is many are forced into that mode becasue of poor urban planning over the last 50 years.

Would New Orleans French quarter attract more people if it had giant parking lots instead of dense historic urban streets? Given your argument the French Quarter would be far more successful if a large chunk of it was a Walmart sized parking experience. I think not. Elmwood is a moderatley successful walkable urban street not becasue of its parking lots. It is that way becasue it is a pleasent place to walk live and shop. It will never rise to the level or the French Quarter or Boston's Back bay or even downtown Ann Arbor as long as the parking lots dominate so many blocks.

replied to whatever
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Steel>"Its actually a false argument that you profer. Your assumption is that parking is the ONLY thing that draws people and that the ONLY way people want to lead there lives is..."

I never said parking is the "only thing" that draw people or that they want. Both of your uses of "only" in that paraphrase are totally made up. Are you incapable of quoting people's exact words instead of making up a straw man - or in this case at least two straw men, both named Only?

Talk about profering false arguments - lol!


Steel>"Elmwood is a moderatley successful walkable urban street not because of its parking lots."

I don't see where anyone said its success is solely because of its parking lots, but that doesn't mean they're not one important factor. Many customers do use parking lots directly accessible from Elmwood throughout EV.

The block with Wilson Farms, Globe, Brodo, and Spot has a lot of convenient off-street parking that helps all of those businesses. Panos, Bullfeathers, the Lex Co-op all have their own parking lots, and there's one next to the bank across from Mode and restaurants on that block. There's Elmwood Taco's drive thru and side lot (also shared by Starbucks, separate from SB's back lot). Jim's has a few parking spaces. And doesn't even BR-favorite Elmwood Market have a parking lot? Price Rite's plaza obviously... and near that, Just Pizza. What am I forgetting? The other pizza place near Bird... and there's probably more. You get the idea. Oh yeah, Cozumel...

replied to STEEL
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Whatever>"I never said parking is the "only thing" that draw people or that they want. Both of your uses of "only" in that paraphrase are totally made up. Are you incapable of quoting people's exact words instead of making up a straw man -"

Steel isnt too far off though. You did claim that frontal parking is an asset to the EV twice:

"So would it be "better" for EV if WF and the co-op had fewer customers and consequently had to carry less products or raise prices, or cut workers, etc.?"

"If all parking were forced to be in the back, EV businesses would probably have fewer customers."

That seems to be based on an autocentric bias that frontal parking=more customers=better business environment. That may not be the case especially in a district that is appealing because of its density and pedestrian scale. It is possible that if there was an ordinace banning frontal parking that the lafayette-breckenridge section of the ev would be more successful. It may not be home to WF who may not want to open a store that doesnt fit its corporate profile but that would create opportunities for local grocers who in turn put more into the local economy. Lack of frontal parking may even attract more outsiders who, like ev, allen, hertel, flock to vitality and activity.

Consider this, Bini mentioned Delaware in the Village of Kenmore is "clinging to life". I would argue that many of those problems are a result of the developer friendly village government allowing large chunks of frontal parkking to disrupt the continuity of what is otherwise a walkable street. If they didnt put the best interest of Paddock and Walgreens ahead of the long term health of the village they would be more successful attracting pedestrians.

I agree with what you said later in the post that parking does help the EV but most of the sites you mentioned feature mid-block or rear parking. Lots like this that minimaly infringe on the streetscape are to be expected but large, frontal corner lots dont add more than they subtract from places like the ev.

replied to whatever
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Of course I said it's an asset. It is an important asset. Or as I said in the comment above "one important factor". Duh, duh, and duh.


pitbull>"I agree with what you said later in the post that parking does help the EV..."

Good that you agree the parking is an asset, but if you agree with my conclusion why are you arguing with what I said to back the conclusion? Just to stay in argument practice?

Just for fun, I'll add you-know-who's new favorite word "only" into your quote to show how foolish it is when some people do that:

pitbull-twisted>"I agree with what you said later in the post that parking IS THE ONLY THING THAT helps the EV..."

See how dumb that looks? Not too far off? Yeah right - lol!


pitbull>"...but most of the sites you mentioned feature mid-block or rear parking"

I don't think any examples I mentioned are only rear parking. Some are both side and rear, some just side, some mid-block full lots, and only a very few are front and on a street corner.
You're saying mid-block parking lots are ok? I thought this post was compaining about "missing teeth"?

replied to The Kettle
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Whatever>"Good that you agree the parking is an asset, but if you agree with my conclusion why are you arguing with what I said to back the conclusion? Just to stay in argument practice"

If you read a little more of what I wrote you will notice I make the distinction between mid-block sheltered and rear parking vs frontal corner lots. Duh, duh and duh!

Whatever>"You're saying mid-block parking lots are ok? I thought this post was compaining about "missing teeth"?

Well the Starbuck-ets-evans bank lot fronts w delevan but it is sheltered from view from Emlmwood. The blockbuster lot, which to you counts as on site parking for spot and brodo, is little more than a driveway at the sidewalk with parking spaces in the rear. And the co-op that you try so hard to equate to wf has the driveway up to the sidewalk and its spaces behind it. The store itself btw was built over the corner surface lot that used to be there.
These lots are not ideal but they are much better than un obstructed frontal parking that exists in front of wfx2 price rite etc.

replied to whatever
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pitbull>"The blockbuster lot, which to you counts as on site parking for spot and brodo, is little more than a driveway at the sidewalk with parking spaces in the rear"

Not true, as Google satellite view shows. http://tinyurl.com/google-ev-lots

It's a normal parking lot with most parked cars visible from the street. Some spaces are behind Blockbuster's entrance, but it's plain to see most aren't. It isn't a driveway with spaces in the rear. Nice try.

It isn't just "to me" counted as parking for Spot/Brodo. It's marked with a sign for customers of those businesses. So is the even bigger parking lot next to W Farms. As Bini has said on BR, those lots are owned by the Spot-Brodo landlord. They're often full of cars, as they are when the Google pic was taken at that link.

Those two and the co-op lot are the kind of "missing teeth" the post criticizes. I agree with your previous point that the parking lots in districts such as EV are a help.

replied to The Kettle
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Whatever>"Not true, as Google satellite view shows. http://tinyurl.com/google-ev-lots

It's a normal parking lot with most parked cars visible from the street

Take that little yellow man in the upper left hand corner, left click and drag until you move him to the Elmwood street view. You will see out of about 20 spaces only one, not "most", of them front and are visable from the street. The rest are off the driveway and away from the sidewalk. Even before frontal parking there were small breaks in the streetscape for alleyways, ventalation, lawns and sidewalks. The driveway and sole parking length that separate Blockbuster from its neighbor is a gap but not nearly the hole that exists across the street which is what I believe the OP was referring to .

Whatever>" It isn't just "to me" counted as parking for Spot/Brodo"

But it is you who repeatedly claims that all of those business have their own separate parking. There is a difference between on site parking and a mid-block lot that the entire district shares. Again these places are doing just fine with the parking in the area but it isnt any more accurate to claim that their success is a result of that parking than it would be for me to claim it would be more successful without it.

replied to whatever
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Or have the Tops on Niagara Street built with it's front entrance ON Niagara St. with rear parking. Would look sooo much better.

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A few reactions.

First, I again agree with Whatever on this subject, as we have argued before. Elmwood wouldn't enjoy its current success without the parking lots across from Spot, next to the Coop, the ramp at Children's, etc.

Second, bring in the people to live in all these densely built apartments without off street parking and the market will respond. Not everyone sees the beauty of living in Manhattan. But if enough do, then the market will react.

Third, I'm not entirely on one end of the spectrum on this topic (though I generally take that side of the argument since it is so woefully underrepresented in these discussions), but: if you think parking isn't necessary and desired by your neighborhood consumers and retailers, then add up the dollar amounts spent in retail with big parking lots vs. those quaint old fashioned storefronts. Take Elmwood between Kenmore and Hertel (Home Depot, Tops, Target, movie theaters, etc) vs. the amount spent in any other equivalent stretch of Elmwood filled with all those storefronts built to the street. Guess where more money changes hands? There's a reason retailers demand parking. The reason is that consumers demand it. They demand it by leaving the quaint streetscapes in droves to go shop by the parking lot. If you don't like that, preach your gospel and try to save souls, but don't be surprised when the masses don't attend your church. Some of you think Delaware in Kenmore is the picture of health? It's clinging to life. I agree the parking behind the stores helps a lot. Without it, the street would be dead.

Fourth, I don't get the hatred of green space. I completely disagree with Kunstler on Boston's big dig park, for example. I love parks. The more, the better to my mind. I'm not an architect. I'm not infatuated with buildings. I appreciate architecture, but I also appreciate beautiful gardens and parks. Some of you (Steel, Kunstler) absolutely hate greenspace. Theirs is not my aesthetic. For I'd much rather have less dense housing with beautiful side lots on every street as opposed to low rent vacant housing which doesn't allow any off street parking. I also disagree with with the Kunstler's hatred of the Troy greenspace. I would love to see the river if one flowed through my town. This guy wants every place to look like Manhattan. That's his taste. I agree with that mayor. To my aesthetic, Kunstler is off base.

As Whatever said, it's largely a matter of taste and choice.

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you're right... and the lots that actually help a street are those which are open for all to use. Also your comment about Elmwood between Hertel and Kenmore is decent but that is hardly a good stretch with many many vacant spaces.. some of which have been vacant, in spite of ample parking, since those buildings were construction.

There is a place for parking but it shouldn't ever be at every doorstep and fronting the street. Side lots, rear lots and where demand warrants, in centralized ramps.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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taste and choice are fine, but don't force the suburban into the urban. when a city is built to a human scale, you don't need to have a 2 ton steel carapace to take part in your daily activities.

your example of manhattan is silly. manhattan is an overbuilt nightmare. i feel sometimes on this forum, disagreements come about because many commenters have no frame of reference when it comes to good urbanism. for examples of good walkable urbanism, look to europe, charleston, and even the neighborhoods of brooklyn (ft. greene in particular). removing the built environment that existed in buffalo in favor of cars, and asking, "hey where'd the people go?" is a false argument.

in regards to your 'green space' argument, look to Jane Jacobs for the current thoughts on what makes good public space and bad. no one is saying PARKS and squares are bad, its how they're implemented. like so:

"misallocated green space can negatively impact neighborhoods. When located in a low-traffic area such as at the residential edge of a neighborhood, parks may become havens for transient populations or criminal activity. Greenery does not automatically lead to physical activity or positive psychosocial health, and the positioning of parkland can be a driving factor in how green space is used and perceived."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1891655/

replied to biniszkiewicz
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I agree with most things said here. Green space is wonderful if it is properly designed and allocated. Just planting greenery where a building once existed can look just like that, a place where a building once was making the area look impovershed. However you cannot compare Buffalo to most european cities. The comparision does not equate. Our streets in the US are larger due to our use of larger vehicles. Many of Europe's streets look much more quaint due to the narrower streets. But there are many things we could take from European cities and impliment a variation of it here.

replied to sin|ill
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Actually, Kunstler does not advocate for everyplace to be like Manhattan. Quite the opposite actually. He pushes for human scaled urban space. He as well as mayself are not against parks either. He and I are against meaningless spaceless places filled with green growies which are planted for the sake of not having buildings. A very good example of this is the dead park created between North and South Division Streets. If you can make a case for how wonderful this park is I will give you a gold medal. I would be willing to bet the only people making use of this park are homeless (if even they take interest in it) I would much rather have the historic buildings that once stood there.

The term "Green Space" has become a panning catch phrase for "we are going to put something nice here that is not a building so don't worry and don't complain" Very few NIMBYs will protest green space though they should. The Peace Bridge Authority has some green space berms planned to mollify the neighborhood about its giant waterfront parking lot. Berms are another disastrous landscape scheme that we have been brainwashed into accepting without question.

The reality is that the promised "green space" is usually awful. Just planting plants does not make a place good. Just look at the sad sad plantings around gas stations and big box development.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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This is really a great dialogue and conversation. The amount of missing teeth in the City of Buffalo is tremendous. Starting somewhere like Grant Street could give ideas to other neighborhoods about the value of streets without dead spaces. And, yes, green space has become a catch-all term. But neighborhoods across the city currently face a great deal of dead space, and developers are not lined up to do anything with these dead spaces. Holding these spaces as temporary green space, be it a linear park, a parking lot, community garden, or an urban farm would at least act as a temporary filling, until a developer or project could come along. The North and South Division park partly does not work because it is not surrounded by eyes on the street. The surrounding buildings look inward, not outward. I am not a urban designer, but to replace the missing teeth seems to call for a joint urban design/planning conversation where certain blocks in the city could serve as case studies to think thru possibilities to bring back the urban fabric of a lot of the city's neighborhoods.

replied to STEEL
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if you read kunstler you'd learn that he adores tree canopies between sidewalk and curb. he gushes over the formal gardens in paris. what he opposes are attempts to bandage over bad urbanism with shrubberies and insert olmstedian meadows into central business districts.

what people love about the natural world is that it overflows with satisfying relationships between plant and animal, light and shadow, tree and flower, water and land, rock and meadow.

for thousands of years, human being developed urban environments that also overflowed with satisfying relationships. we did it in every culture on every continent without benefit of architecture or planning schools.

these are the places we flock to for vacation. whenever i see travel porn on tv the absence of automobiles is striking, as if by definition a -getaway- means getting away from your car and its dismal habitat.

the fact that these beloved pedestrian havens, where they have survived, are overrun and priced out of the range of average citizens is a -market signal- that the market blithely ignores. demand for good urbanism far exceeds supply, yet the sprawl machine marches on like a headless zombie.


replied to biniszkiewicz
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((golf clap))
well said.

replied to grad94
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hear hear!

replied to grad94
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I wouldn't suggest that these businesses could survive without some parking. The question is where that parking should be exactly. Al labruna brought up Wegmans. Imagine if they actually put the store up against Amherst St. Putting the typical bulk of a supermarket up against the street like that wouldn't bring it to life any more than a parking lot would. But suppose they took a risk and put the butcher, bakery, seafood, flower shop, video section, etc. up against the street like normal storefronts so someone could walk in from the sidewalk instead of having to go through the main entrance. The row of registers could run perpendicular to the street. That way after checking out the various customers can either turn one way out onto the sidewalk or the other to the parking lot in the rear. I would agree that a good 90% would probably head to the parking lot initially. But designing the store in that way will give a shot in the arm to the commercial strip in the long run because it encourages pedestrian shopping, which will add life to the street and encourage more entrepreneurs to take a chance on the neighborhood.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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I would actually go to Wegman's butcher, baker etc if I didn't have to navigate 1,000 isles and people for a freak carton of eggs. I want to walk in, buy something and walk out... the big box and its typology of huge lines, waits and everything to everyone is annoying at best.

replied to daveydoo
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Not sure if it means anything but the street in DT that has the least amount of "missing teeth" is Main where the Metro runs along it.

Now, odds are this is just because it would be difficult to demo or that cars can not access anyways...but it is interesting.

As for Steel's comment that "The most attractive and vibrant cities in America have very few gap-toothed streets." I would counter that those cities also have great public transportation.

Someone posted on another thread, I forgot who and what thread, that the Elmwood Village is a walkable neighborhood. In reality, if you are a business, this is far from the truth.

Yes, the most dense area of Buffalo is this neighborhood and it is no coincidence that is has the most vibrant business community. However, in order for it to survive, it needs to draw in people from outside of the 5 blocks that are N,S,E and W of the neighborhood. Yes, this means providing parking for those bastards from Amherst. But it also means providing parking for people who live on the West Side, Lower West Side, Blackrock, North Buffalo and other somewhat dense areas of the city.

Now I am not an expert on the city bus system but...say someone from the Columbus Park area wants to go to dinner in the Elmwood Village on a Friday night.

First off...they have to be home by 10:30 because the Bus system does not run that late.

Next, they can catch the #22 bus near 7th and Porter around 6:35. But better be on time because the next bus is not for another 75 minutes.

They then take this to catch the #20 bus at Elmwood and North around 6:49. Once again, better be on time because the next one does not come till 7:30.

The arrive somewhere in the Elmwood Village before 7pm.

So it takes 30 around 30 min via public bus to get where it takes 10 min to drive. Not a bad trade off...however, if you miss your bus, they run so infrequently, you are screwed. Oh man..if it is cold...even worse. The NFTA is a big reason why Buffalo has missing teeth.

In San Francisco, they have electric buses that run about every 10 minutes and go almost all day. THAT is how it should be!


I wonder what Buffalo would look like if the bus system was actually productive. It would not be that hard to do a pilot program.

Take the city West of the 33, South of Forest to Downtown and run 8 lines East and West and 8 lines North and South. Run them every 10 minutes and from 5am to 2am.

I would bet that over time, people inside of this loop could adapt and ditch a car or at least use it only to travel outside of the loop.

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Oh to add to this...the Cab system in Buffalo is also dysfunctional.

Not only are there not enough cabs but they are expensive. More expensive than New York City on weekdays.

Looking at the rates for Liberty, they charge $2.30 for the first 1/6th of a mile and then .50 for each additional 1/6 of a mile.

In NYC, it is $2.50 for the first 1/5 of a mile and .40 for each additional 1/5.

So a 3 mile trip in NYC on a Tuesday is going to run $6.10. The same 3 mile trip in Buffalo is going to run $11.00.

Even with the .50 nighttime surcharge and $1.00 peak charge that NYC cabs can charge, it is still MUCH more expensive to use Cabs in Buffalo.

replied to Really?
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I dont think that math is right?

17*.50 + 2.30 =10.80


14*.40 +2.50 = 8.10 +1.0 =.5 = 9.60

I could be wrong

replied to Really?
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Drrr. You are right. A weekday...non rush 3mile cab in NYC is $8.10 not $6.10. Regardless, $8.10 is still 25% less than $10.80. During peak and weekends, NYC is still 12% less.

Even the airport trips are jacked. It is about 10.5 miles from the DT convention center to the Buffalo airport. Flat rate in Buffalo...$30. Now from Midtown Manhattan to JFK it is $45 for the 22 miles.

The point was great cities have great transportation. Great transportation allows for people to have a realistic choice between driving or not driving. In Buffalo, you can not give up your car. When Buffalo had "all of her teeth" it also had an amazing streetcar network.

We can talk about the horror of parking lots but until their is a reliable and productive public transportation option in the COB, parking lots are valid.

Now, it would be super cool if Buffalo had 229 miles of subway like NYC or 106 miles like Chicago...but that is never going to happen.

However, scheduling buses and lowering cab fairs are something that can be done with the stroke of a pen. They do not require any infrastructure or huge upfront costs.

I just wanted to add you need to provide an alternative to driving if you want to have a real discussions about parking lots as a negative.


replied to TimMD
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if convenient parking is that life & death important to people, then they'll pay market rate for it. just like people are glad to pay top dollar for front row seats at shea's for shows they really want to see.

but keep in mind that people always "need" more of something when they don't have to pay for it. you'll always drink more at your cousin's wedding when it is open bar rather than cash bar.

replied to Really?
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I am not sure where you are going with your comment.

See convenience is a matter of perspective. Some people have no problem walking 4 blocks. Others have a problem with 400 feet. Neither is wrong in their perspective.

As for your line of thinking that people will pay market rate, I disagree. The reality is they simply go somewhere else. Not a pleasant reality if you are a business owner in a location without parking.

Your Shea's analogy does not work. With shows at Shea's, there is only one show and only Shea's. Supply and demand.

With the very rare exception to the rule, there is not one business in the COB that offers a service or product that can not be found somewhere else. With these options, you go down a list of secondary considerations. One of which, like it or not, is parking.

People do not "need" parking. Just as people do not "need" to eat or shop at a specific location. People make choices. That is the reality.

My point was...instead of making people choose between parking and no parking. Making businesses choose between locations with parking or no parking...Buffalo should try and fix the root of the issue. That being cars v. no cars.

But if you want to be fair, something the OP hardly ever does in his writing, when comparing other areas as attractive and vibrant cities because they have very few gap-toothed streets, you have to discuss why those other areas can survive without parking.

There is not a problem with population density. Hell, Buffalo could put up a wall and just deal with the 290k people who live inside of the city and have enough money and people to allow places to thrive.

The challenge with Buffalo is getting people from point A to B. The only realistic option for most is driving. Not because they are bastards and hate buildings. But rather because the COB eliminated or refuses to create a viable alternative to driving.

replied to grad94
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i'm going with insights from donald shoup's talk last week. i don't think his lecture was filmed so here's a substitute.

http://www.streetfilms.org/dr-shoup-parking-guru/

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Look, I am not a fan of surface parking lots. In fact, I hate them. I live in the urban core because I do not like to drive.

All I am saying is this conversation is pointless if you do not discuss the entire issue.

See the challenge is not surface parking lots. That is the byproduct of the real challenge. That being transportation options for Americans...for people in Buffalo.

Donald Shoup is from LA. A conversation about walking between someone in LA is MUCH MUCH different than someone in Buffalo. A blog post from someone who lives in Chicago about parking is much different than someone living in Buffalo. You have to discuss these differences if you want to have an honest conversation.

Buffalo needs to eliminate the "want" or "need" for surface parking lots. That is a fact. However, Buffalo needs to be realistic in the plan.

You can not say..no parking for you...and call it a day. All that would do is drive most businesses out of the city.

What you need to do is say...we need to rethink how we live....how we move from A to B and be honest about it. Riding a bike is not practical in Buffalo for a good amount of the year. When it is cold, which it is, walking 10 blocks is not practical.

A fast bus network and lower cab rates could be implemented in 2010. They could provide an immediate impact on the parking challenges that people face.


replied to grad94
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Great comments, good arguments from all sides, a real pleasure to read.

I have no problem with the big box stores in the Elmwood/Hertel area but our traditional business districts need to respect the contiguous street scape that was designed to a human scale.
Parking should be inserted with a "scalpel" not jammed in with a "hatchet" and certainly not bludgeoned with an axe, as has been the case here in Buffalo.

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yeah the only saving grace about the north buffalo developments is that most of the land was fallow industrial.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Even in places like New Orleans and NYC, there is a strong demand for parking. So what if the French Quarter is devoid of surface lots? Just a few blocks away, around and along Canal St. are plenty of garages and surface lots. Often I've seen "quaint historical districts" that are redeveloped to give the illusion of an old timey wonderland without cars only to look beyond and see where the sacrifices were made, where neighborhoods were ravaged to satisfy the demands of carloads of tourists. Indeed, that was the whole 'pedestrian mall' model: provide a lovely pedestrian shopping experience within a sea of surface parking. I've also seen where contiguous streetwalls were maintained, even built up and a shopping, dining and entertainment district thrived. But there was parking too: underground, in garages, behind smaller buildings and near transit points. It's about BALANCE. If Mr. Kunstler wants to turn the clock back to the 1890s he failed. It won't happen. Too many people love cars and the personal freedom and mobility they offer. There's no such thing as "smart planning" without parking. Sorry.

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no problem, just end socialized parking and start charging market rates for it, like we do for every other land use, and remove all minimum requirements for off-street parking.

oh, and kunstler doesn't have to try to turn back any clock hands. it will happen on its own when the supply of oil drops and the price rises.

replied to sonyactivision
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Take this with a grain of salt...but people with your mindset is the reason why issues like parking never get solved.

I pointed out that the parking challenge is simply a byproduct of poor public planning in regards to transportation in general. In order to correct parking...you need to address things like effective mass transportation.

Your counter...I am going to go by what a professor from UCLA says. Everyone should walk or ride their bike. Even if you live in a place like Buffalo, where it is currently 29° and a good chance of snow. Oh..it is going to be 59° in LA today.

Sony points out that even if you create areas that are 100% filled with buildings and "walkable", there is parking just around the corner. He said there needs to be a balance between walking and cars. Suggesting productive things like underground ramps, in garages, behind smaller buildings and near transit points.

Your counter...charge the hell out of those bastard drivers and no need to worry about cars...they are going the way of the dinosaur with oil prices on the rise.

Here is a little bit of reality for you.

If you succeed in making parking such a divisive issue, all that is going to happen is businesses will leave the urban core in places like Buffalo. The epitome of cutting off the nose to spite the face. What you would be left with is two empty structures side by side rather than a business and a parking lot.

Lastly, the car is never going to die because of oil prices. Current technology already allows for HEVs to get 3x the mpg as a normal car. People will find a way to drive in a budget because there will be a business that figures out a way to build cars that allow them to do so.

The only way to get people to give up their cars is to provide an alternative to driving that is a close comparison in regards to convenience, travel time and enjoyment.

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I get these anti-parking fanatics but when you have a patient on the table with a sucking chest wound, you don't worry about what the scar is going to look like.

replied to Really?
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And that's why so many commercial districts in the city look and function the way they do now. "Anything is better than nothing" has been the mantra for the past 40 years.

replied to sonyactivision
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If you're suggesting that 'nothing would be better than anything', that's a much closer approximation to what we've seen over the last 40 years.

replied to Dan
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Really wrote:

> I am going to go by what a professor from UCLA says. Everyone should walk or ride their bike.

well, that straw man is easily dismantled.

claiming that if you're opposed to subsidized parking, you must think that everyone has to bike or walk is like claiming that if you're opposed to public (subsidized) housing, you must think that everyone has to live in a log cabin.

please google -parking benefit district- and learn how downtown can benefit from parking rather than being damaged by it.

replied to sonyactivision
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Serious question...have you ever owned a business?

The reason I ask is because the one part of the formula that you have no regard for is the business owner.

replied to grad94
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i'm co-owner of an old commercial building that we are slowly rehabilitating as time and money permit. but we signed a tenant even though we have no off-street parking.

replied to Really?
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You mean I can't park right on the property!? Won't see me in that store! NO WAY.

replied to grad94
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While it must be awfully tempting to approach downtown parking the same way you do airport parking where the revenues support big bond issues that fund major improvements, remember that there is a limit to how much shoppers are willing to pay to park. If the idea is to chase away retail and other traffic-sensitive businesses in favor of law offices and government employees that crave their own parking spot, fine. Just don't wrap overcooked new urbanist schemes in such pangloss. Buffalo is fighting for its tax base. The last thing it needs right now are Beverly Hills-style impositions on what's left of its business community. I think that free 'one hour or less' ramps paid for by dedicated 'all-day' ramps and a T.I.D.D. might be a better solution. BALANCE.

replied to grad94
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I live right off elmwood and i RARELY drive around there. The point of an urban center is to shop, work and live in one area. I moved from california because i HATED driving everywhere. In fact, things were so spread out, i couldnt even use my bicycle most times!!!!

I walk everywhere, bike or take the bus. I share a car that is used mainly for long distance purposes. Who needs a car when there is decent transportation, walkable neighborhoods and bicycle friendly streets???


Urban centers attract people, like myself, who want to be in the center of it all. We dont want to drive to a concert thats 20 minutes away. Why drive to starbucks when spots around the corner? Why shop at the mall when you can walk down to Urban?

Urban areas are for walking.

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I understand your desire to have your area walkable.

However, part of the reason the Elmwood Village is such a nice place to be is due to the concentration of businesses. IMO, those businesses need more than the people who 'live right off Elmwood' to survive.

Depending on the weather, I would say 1 mile is about the right amount of distance most people would be willing to walk. There simply is not enough people withing 1 mile of a place like the Elmwood Village for all of the businesses to survive. When places start to close...your walkability goes down with every one of them.

This is where the balance comes in. Buffalo is NOT a major urban area. No matter what people in the Elmwood Village think. Not only are you missing the public transportation options, you are also missing the population density. Added to this, the residents of this area do not want construction that would increase the density.

Between the residents, out of area visitors and businesses...everyone has to give a little. These are concepts you will not find in school because most do not have to worry about a balance sheet or analyze a specific environment when creating theory in the classroom.

replied to bernicebuffalove
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"Buffalo is NOT a major urban area. No matter what people in the Elmwood Village think."

I don't think people in the EV think of Buffalo as a major urban area. I think most people think of Elmwood itself as a walkable, urban area. Because it is. I'm not sure anyone ever thought it was the densest urban place ever. But it's still nice. What's your point in saying this? To 'take us down a peg' or something?

"Not only are you missing the public transportation options, you are also missing the population density."

Conceded. That does't mean Elmwood is not walkable. It still is.


"Added to this, the residents of this area do not want construction that would increase the density."

I'm not so sure about this. Residents of one street protested the hotel, I assume you mean. I would not say they spoke for all residents of the area. I'm pretty sure a substantial amount of people supported that concept. Also, with regards to the deseign guidelines height restrictions, sufficient density can most definitely be achieved within those guidelines. Ever been to DC?


Regardless. What are you ultimately arguing for here? More parking lots? It doesn't sound like it. Are you just defending the existing parking lots? Fine. I don't think anyone is really arguing against ALL parking lots, though it's convenient to imagine so. People are arguing for differently configured parking lots. What you are saying is inherently contradictory. We cannot increase density AND accomodate the same percentage of parking. Something has to give there. Part of the reason for the decreased density in the first place is single use one-story structures with parking lots. And, I fully agree that, given the population density in the area, businesses cannot survive without some available parking. But, if we're going to increase density, then I think it needs to come at the expense of maintaining the same percentage of parking. The area cannot become what you say it isn't - dense and urban - if your primary concern is parking because the area isn't otherwise dense enough. You are logically chasing your own tail just so you can disagree with an argument no one is making - some imaginary Elmwood hipster-type you dislike.

For the record, though maybe what I just wrote is somewhat of a disagreement with your post, I don't think we actually disagree on the substantive issues of parking and density. Here's a test case - I think Panos and the Co-Op are good examples of maintaining good pedestrian-friendly urbanism while still accomodating adequate parking (adequate - not copious, maybe not even "ideal" from the business-owner perspective, I don't know - but good compromises). I would happily see more of that in the neighorhood. Your thoughts?

replied to Really?
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I think Panos and the Coop are fine examples of desirable, responsible parking.

Grad94: How about addressing those two lots? Here is a case where no parking is subsidized. The businesses themselves are providing the parking their customers seek. The public isn't paying a dime. Do you object to these two lots?

jimnumbers: I'd love to see streetcars back. I'm not holding my breath, however.

replied to reflip
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There is not such thing as free parking and there is no such thing as parking ubsubsidized by government.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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??? Please illuminate precisely how government subsidizes Panos and Coop parking in any way different than, say, a larger store front.

Let's say Panos had kept the Atwater house and let's say the Coop built over their parking lot with more store front. How would government be subsidizing them any less than they supposedly are now? The only way I can figure out any 'subsidy' (and it's quite a stretch) is if you assume that the taxable value of the properties would be greater without parking, on the basis that more building must be more valuable than less building. But that's an unsubstantiated position. It's very likely that, though larger, the monetary value of the buildings would be smaller because the parking adds such functionality and utility to the properties. So the taxable basis for these structures may well be greater because, not in spite of, the parking. Therefore, if tax revenue is your basis for saying government is 'subsidizing' parking, that argument has holes in it. If that is not the basis for your claim, then what is?

replied to STEEL
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Government subsidy is not always a direct hand out but. Shoup's book "The high Cost of Free Parking goes into this in great detail. first since parking takes up a lot of space things get spread out and need more roads which government pays for. Parking lots create more water runoff which needs to be dumped into government sewers. The water run off is from parking and the additional roads is very polluted requiring additional pollution control treatment paid for by government. Sometimes the polution is not treated. Currently the suburbs just dump their polluted water in Buffalo ( Hamburg drain aniyone?) The Scajaquata(sp?) Creek was diverted around Delaware lake because the run off water - mostly from Cheektowaga was so foul. The added run off also often causes streams to swell with more water than they were ever required to handle. Parking lots and additional pavement is a known cause of increased flooding wich is costly to governments. Since things are more spread out because of parking lots people are forced to drive their cars. Something that many have pointed out with regard to Elmwood. More cars means more need for government roads and wider roads with their associated sewers and drainage. Our severe dependence on cars has made us dependent on foreign supplied oil which means our government paid for military is needed to secure that oil. Land used for parking is taxed at a lower rate which means fewer people pay for more stuff in order to pay for the car culture.

Also since each business needs to buy and maintain more land to supply space for car storage they need to pass that cost on to their customers. They don't do this directly by charging a parking fee but cover the cost by raising prices on their product.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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What are the true "hidden costs" of a mass transit system? Buses that spew diesel fumes? Trolleys that cost over $100,000 per user to build? How far do you purists care to take this argument? I agree that non-automotive transport is much more sustainable in the long run, assuming that cars still run on gasoline, but given the short time horizon for that outdated technology, what would you propose when cars are much less polluting and yet people still want them? Do you own a car? Do you have to park it?

replied to STEEL
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Public transit costs a fraction of the amount per person that individualized car centric transit costs. The pollution from a bus is miniscule compared to the the amount of pollution from cars for the same number of people. These super cars you dream of don't exist and probably never will since no one is working on real sustainable energy in any real way.

You are kidding with that argument right? Your post is supposed to be sarcastic?

replied to sonyactivision
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You're right: once fuel becomes scarce, the car will be abandonded and everyone will walk, bicycle, or ride the subway to work...and pass by UMBRA along the way...and live in mini Mississauguas. Please, don't embarass yourself further with this nonsense. New technologies are already on the shelf for cars to run either wih far less gas or no gas at all. The issues are with the applications of these technologies and their cost. That will change. What won't is the desire to own and drive cars. Forget it. The human race voted a long time ago. Actually, I'm surprised you didn't mention the relatively clean nat gas burning buses. Probably because car designers are working on nat gas cars as well.

replied to STEEL
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What fuels do cars run on other than gas? Electicity? Oh you mean the kind madeby burning coal? Or are you talking about ethanol, the fuel made from food which is grown with petrolem based fertilizers. OK, I am not the one embarfasing myself.

By the way I never said any of the things you atribute to me. You must be confused especially if you think continually building ugly sprawl out into the country side is a sustainable and good idea.

replied to sonyactivision
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Electricity can be generated any number of ways. Coal, natural gas, wind, solar, and my personal favorite: nuclear.So yes, the same dirty filthy coal that powers most trolley systems and subways. We have a huge abundance of shale gas so I suppose that will become a big chunk of the carbon triad. Hydrogen fuel cells have a lot of kinks but something like that can come into being. Believe me, when the cost of gas goes near $10 a gallon, you'll see just how innovative the GLOBAL automotive industry can get. I ask again, do you own a car? Do you have to park it?

replied to STEEL
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Still, electric buses use far less electirc power than 100 elctric cars and no all those cars are not going to be powered by wind so what is your point? Most likely they will be powered by coal which is the dirtiest fossel fuel. Oh well at least we can then keep destroying the countryside with cheap sprawl development. Wow, that is something to look forward to.

replied to sonyactivision
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Are you serious? Anything that produces electricity gets pumped into the grid. It doesn't matter from where, so yes, an electric car's batteries can be charged off of wind or solar.(!) And what does any of this have to do with sprawl? Sprawl is the product of crappy planning, not the evil automobile. Plenty of cars in San Francisco but you don't see them filling in the harbor for more suburban houses, do you? Buses, trolleys and rail are all good stuff and well worth the investment in them but we shouldn't ignore the costs or delude ourselves into thinking they are the solution to all the ills that afflict cities, just as it's foolish and self-defeating to act as though parking destroys cities. Many great cities are springing up nicely WITH PARKING, thank you very much.

replied to STEEL
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I'll remember that the next time I walk down one of those "free" sidewalks, enjoy a lovely "free" park, or pay a "subsided" fare on the NFTA.

replied to STEEL
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The problem is the city has been giveing far far more that a little. The result is that much of the city is no longer livable. When does the city have to stop giving?

replied to Really?
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Steel,

Are you really trying to make this a city v. suburb argument? Do you think every.single.parking.spot is created for someone who lives outside of the city?

If you were to magically remove the 1st and 2nd ring suburbs, the COB would still have enough population and money to support much more than it does today. The challenge is the city has no real connections from one neighborhood to the next outside of driving.

Let me give you an example:

Right now you have an amazing success from Allentown north to the ABK. You also have some positive progress downtown and one would hope the Canal Side/Waterfront eventually. This spine is about 3.75 miles long if you take Elmwood from Buffalo State to the Inner Harbor.

Along this spine you have a somewhat dense population and a good amount of money. But no legitimate public transportation option. If COB had a focus of taking care of itself, it would do whatever it takes to create a highly accessible and effective transportation line along these 3.5 miles. But it doesn't. This transportation like could be something as simple as buses that run every 10 min in a loop between the ABK and Canal Side 20hrs a day. No infrastructure needed.

At the top and bottom of this spine is PLENTY of parking that already exists for people who do not live along the spine. Even better is the fact that these lots are mostly surface lots, which could be converted to parking ramps taking even less room.

Buffalo has a "free zone" for the metro. Why not make a rapid delivery bus line from Canal Side to the ABK a free zone as well? It is not as sexy as a subway line but it accomplishes the same goal at the end of the day.

replied to STEEL
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All great ideas but the fact is that it is ALWAYS a city v suburb issue. As long as so much of the region's economy is based outside the city in car based environments you will never get the density of population needed to support this and as long as you don't have that critical mass you will never ever get suburban residents willing to pony up.

Where does the money come from?

replied to Really?
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-Regardless. What are you ultimately arguing for here? More parking lots? It doesn't sound like it. Are you just defending the existing parking lots?-

No. My original point was if you are going to have a conversation about parking lots, we should discuss why they exist. They are a byproduct of thinks like a poor public transportation system and low density neighborhoods. Businesses in Buffalo need to draw customers from a larger area than a business in places like Chicago or LA. Once you go past a mile, the walking option no longer is an option.

So if you are going to go to the business owner and say...you should not have a parking lot next door, you need to have a solution with that same conversation that does not hurt his/her business.

Which is why I suggested things like better bus service and lower cab rates. These two items would allow for people inside of the city to move around without the use of the car and not cost them more time and money then they do in other areas.

You have to give drivers something in return for asking them to give up their cars. You can not just say, we will charge them out of existence.

The second point was it is unfair to compare Buffalo to other places like LA or Chicago because those places have things like weather and mass transportation options that do not exist in Buffalo. Square peg..round hole.

If the conversation was framed as...this area is doing this and Buffalo could do something similar...BUT we have to overcome item 1, 2 and 3 that do not present itself in the example area...I would have agreed to the premise of the conversation.

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apologies for beating a dead horse, but one last follow-up.

Really wrote:

> Your counter...charge the hell out of those bastard drivers and no need to worry about cars...they are going the way of the dinosaur with oil prices on the rise.

let's dismantle another straw man.

"charging the hell out of drivers" is not the definition of market rate parking. in buffalo, market rate might mean $.50/hour for certain places (broadway) or times of day and $5/hour for others (allen st.). it is also called -performance based pricing- or the goldilocks principle. you price so that somewhere between 10% and 20% of curb spaces are available on any given block at any given time.

oh, and like it or not, the global demand for petroleum now exceeds supply, and every day there is less of it in the ground. in a free market, capitalist society, that means prices will rise and shortages will occur.

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This is not beating a dead horse. It is a conversation. One that I am enjoying.

I think your views on the issue are based too much on conceptual academic theory rather than reality. Pretty much every idea or theory that you have presented all leads back to one person...Donald Shoup. A person who I do not feel can speak to all markets because it is impossible for one person to know all markets.

I understand the goldilocks principle. I went to college as well. I recited what I was told too so I could get my degree. However, it has been 12 years since I was forced to regurgitate theory back to someone.

I still stand by my comments regarding parking rates as charging the hell out of drivers. Take for example someone who wants to spend a Sunday at a bar to watch a Bills game with friends. If they are paying $5/hr for parking, that is around $20. Compared to the countless options in Buffalo that offer free parking because they are not in a location where parking is scarce, that is $20 that most people do not want to pay. That is $20 that people will CHOOSE not to pay and go somewhere else.

That choice, means a loss of business for the businesses located in areas where parking is scarce or in areas where people like yourself want to solve the issue by charging $ to park.

A couple of comments back, you used the example of Shea's. Which indicated to me you really do not understand Supply and Demand as it relates to parking in Buffalo. Yes..if someone is going to a Sabres game or a play at Shea's, your 'theory' works. This is because only one option for going to a Sabres game or play at Shea's exists.

However, for areas like the Elmwood Village or for 99% of Buffalo, there is nothing that is so unique that I think drivers would accept parking fees without a serious thought to going elsewhere. Consider that some people choose a destination not just on if parking is available but ALSO if they have to pay for it. That is a reality that exists in Buffalo that you choose to ignore.

I feel you are so focused on preaching the gospel according to Shoup that you are missing what the conversation should be. Instead of trying to figure out how to limit that amount of parking one uses, focusing on things such as turnover, the conversation should be about how to limit the need for parking without creating turnover at all.

It is about critical mass. The more people that can be in a given area at a given time, the more things like retail/restaurants exits. This is why places like Chicago and NYC have no missing teeth and places like Buffalo have many. Critical mass.

If you were to simply cap the number of spaces and focus on parking turnover, you are confining your options to a set number. The reason why people add parking in Buffalo is because they want to increase the number of people that can visit their location. Sadly, the only way to do this TODAY is to increase the number of spots.

Say you have 1000 spaces and you average 1.5 people per space. That is only 1500 people at any given time. Add in the amount of people who can arrive in the same area via things like walking and the poor public transportation options..you maybe double that. So now you are at 3000.

What I suggested is IF you want to cap the number of spots AND you want to charge for parking, you MUST provide and improve transportation alternatives to these areas where you do this. Without this, all you are doing is restricting the potential of businesses to draw in people. When faced with these restrictions, businesses will simply move to locations where there are less restrictions. That is a fact. That is Buffalo and the suburbs.

replied to grad94
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I agree that the problem/solution isn't limited to cars, without a comprehensive transit system and transportation plan (that is followed) then this argument is academic. We need to provide alternative dependable transportation options to provide people the opportunity to not use their cars for all activities. With these options in place, we could then market rate metered parking and rewrite the zoning code to limit the amount of surface parking in certain areas utilizing overlay districts and associated planning tools. Once alternatives are competitive with autos then we'll see a switch, but currently it's easy to use a car in Buffalo, and more difficult to use alternative transportation.

replied to Really?
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i also read jane jacobs, kunstler, lewis mumford, and william whyte. who do you read?

replied to Really?
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I read enough authors, forums, journals and bloggers both online and in print on topics ranging from web development and new urbanism to politics and history to know that citing a list does nothing to help or hinder my opinions and observations in an online medium such as a blog.

Opinions and observations are a wonderful thing...especially when they are your own. You should try it sometime. :)

replied to grad94
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> Opinions and observations are a wonderful thing...especially when they are your own. You should try it sometime. :)

How patronizing.

As if your every utterance owes nothing to the intellectual labors of those who came before you.

replied to Really?
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"If they are paying $5/hr for parking, that is around $20. Compared to the countless options in Buffalo that offer free parking because they are not in a location where parking is scarce, that is $20 that most people do not want to pay. That is $20 that people will CHOOSE not to pay and go somewhere else."

I think the idea then is that $5/hr is too high a price and it will drop until people are willing to pay it. The idea is to set the price just high enough to maintain roughly 85% occupancy, so that there are always some available spaces, but not too many. If occupancy falls below this level, then reduce the prices until it comes back. In some places and at some hours of the day, that might mean free parking. At other times, it might be quite expensive. But it would all be driven by supply and demand.

Downtown lots already use this principle - it's much more expensive to park in the Webster lot for a Sabres game than for an open practice, or when there's no event at HSBC and you just feel like taking a stroll under the 190. And the prices drop as you get further away, to serve a range of customers. Some are willing to pay $20 to park right next to the arena, while others prefer to pay $5 and walk several blocks to their destination.

Frankly, I don't think most Buffalo neighborhoods outside of downtown would need increases in parking fees (though metered street parking helps encourage turnover of spots in commercial districts), because they never reach 85% occupancy during most hours. Elmwood and Hertel on weekend evenings might benefit from this, though.

My biggest concern would be the added complexit. Many suburbanites are already timid to come to Elmwood and Hertel because of a perceived lack of parking; it doesn't help if they don't know how much to expect to pay on a given evening.

replied to Really?
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In 50 years, no new cars will run on gasoline. But there will be millions of them on the road. It's an intractable feature of our lifestyle. Will people just fold up their car and take them on the bus? People have been knocking down buildings for parking lots SINCE THE 1930s when so much transit was still available. Trolley systems were everywhere AND PEOPLE DROVE CARS. This isn't North Korea, you can't dictate how people move around.

As to "market rate pricing", how do you determine those rates? By overpricing to begin with? Should the city charge people to park on the street because it costs so much to repave and plow snow? Why not a tax for off street parking as well? After all, we can't have free parking anywhere...too many hidden costs!

replied to grad94
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the goldilocks principle applies. the rate is too high if more than say 20% of curb spots are open and too low if none are open. you have to price, observe, and adjust.

my guesses as to the relative rates for allen vs. broadway are just that: guesses. maybe the right rate for broadway is free and the right rate for allen is 2.50.

but the point is that under this system, the neighborhood gets a big chunk of the meter revenues for street cleaning, benches, repaved sidewalks, trees, basically any amenities that attract people. voila: a virtuous cycle rather than a vicious one.

replied to sonyactivision
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This system will work well for larger cities where people have less choice and were the center city has been made strong and wealthy


IN Buffalo the free parking suburban culture is very dominant. Any suggestion of paying for parking is a mark against the city which is already in a week position. People think free parking is a birth right. It will be the thing that ruins this country.

replied to grad94
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If the city begins jacking up parking rates, guess what happens next? Everyone decides it's a wash to burn the extra gas and hump it out to the 'burbs. If the city and county would combine and enact a regional parking plan, then it can all come together nicely. For now, putting Buffalo at yet another disadvantage for the sake of your purist principles will likely finish the city off. But who cares, as long as everything within five blocks of Elmwood is still ok?

replied to STEEL
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Then you lower prices again until you reach 85% occupancy. You guys are missing the whole "market rate" concept here. It's not about jacking up prices until nobody is willing to park there; it's about setting prices at the level the market will support and then reinvesting those fees in neighborhood enhancements, to make the neighborhood an even more attractive place to want to go to.

If everybody in metro Buffalo is adamantly against paying for street parking (which I will remind you that we do already during the weekdays) and would sooner drive out to Transit Road than pay to park on Elmwood or Hertel, then I guess the market rate is $0/hr. Fine. But I personally do not think that is true. The public lots on Elmwood are frequently full, and those are $1/hr I think (or maybe $0.50/hr).

replied to sonyactivision
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What you are forgetting or ignoring is that the suburbs are undercutting the market with subsidized free parking. Buffalo can't compete with that without destroying itself.

replied to JSmith
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Well, I would point to the almost-full paid parking ramps downtown as clear evidence that people are willing to pay money to park their cars downtown, regardless of whether the suburbs are offering free parking.

As long as the suburbs have acres and acres of cheap land, they can offer free parking. The city can't compete with that without demolishing half of itself for parking. We already tried that and it hasn't really worked so well. Cities need to use their density and vibrancy to offer things the suburbs can never compete with, that make people willing to pay for parking (or walk, ride a bicycle, or use public transportation) in favor of the free parking at Applebees.

replied to STEEL
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Try convincing the average suburbanite that it is ok to walk a half block form their car to their destination and that they won't get murdered in the city. And many companies locate in the suburbs because they think their employees should not have to pay anything to park.

replied to JSmith
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Yeah all those companies "locate in the suburbs over free parking". Please. There are numerous criteria for selecting a site. Probably the primary factor is the virgin, shovel-ready site that requires no demos, no remediation, no big fights over easements or hiring that you get in cities. Cities distort the process of locating new firms to the point that so many of them won't ever consider a site in an inner city. Blame the suburbs all you want, they know how to fight for tax base while the cityfolk stumble over themselves with political correctness and endless delays and squabbles. If a huge company said they were coming into the Buffalo area but needed to get up and running within 18 months, could the City of Buffalo do it? Site, easements, utilities, tax incentives, and all the rest? Would that gang even know how?

replied to STEEL
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People who work Downtown will always pay extra for reliable or dedicated parking space. That doen't mean they're in love with the concept, just resigned to it. What an all-pay parking scheme does is place the city at a disadvantage with suburban retailers and service firms. Looking at the suburbs and the free parking at employers there like GEICO, that is indeed a major expense for them that isn't passed along to the employees but factors into their siting decisions. In areas where land costs are extremely high, companies either choose to bite the bullet out of their need for the proximity or they modify their plans and encourage employees to use public transit. In this way, land prices are a good metric for determining the viability of mass transit. Land prices around Buffalo are low. How do you add value and thus enhance the viability of alternate transportation? By attracting more businesses. How do you do that? Free parking!!!

replied to JSmith
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if low or no cost were the only factor motivating our land use choices, we'd all move to broadway fillmore and elmwood would empty out. but we all know that people will pay for what they value. starbucks charges more for coffee than mcdonalds does & they do just fine. in the case of elmwood, people value a rewarding walkable environment with shops and cafes not found elsewhere.

the theory is easy enough to test out. a one or two block stretch of elmwood (the blocks with businesses instead of houses) could volunteer to be a guinea pig for a year or two. establish a parking benefit district, in which revenues from market rate curb parking pay for things like sidewalk plowing, benches, and plantings, -only- on those blocks, and see if it attracts or repels customers.

replied to STEEL
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what would be wrong with putting tracks built into the street and having a streetcar system like in the past?

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I find it a shame that economically healthy city and suburbs cannot coexist in Buffalo. It is a shame that we are so far down that we have to resort to fighting amongst ourselves, instead of determining how to work together as a region to resolve the problems that plague our city. It is a shame that we have to blame the suburbs for the problems of the city. We cannot talk about economics or poverty without blaming the suburbs for taking away the money or conspiring to keep the poor in the city. We cannot talk about jobs without blaming Amherst and UB for building outside the City. We cannot discuss a more economically viable Buffalo without pointing a finger at the suburbs and saying "They took our jobs!, They took our wealthy!, They took our taxes!, They are getting rich off our poverty!".

We live in a beautiful city, full of rich architecture and loads of potential. We also live in a city plagued with corruption, poor decisions, inept decision makers, and poverty. We live in an area that offers our residents with housing options that do not exist in all other cities our size. Instead of embracing this as a positive, we see it as a threat to the city and vilify it. It is a positive that our middle and lower middle class residents can afford homes in safe neighborhoods with good schools, this is where most people want to raise their children. I have lived in other parts of the country where families must make tremendous sacrifices to up their quality of life. This is something that we should be using to sell the area, instead of trying to stop it.

I think we all agree that suburban sprawl is an issue. To restate that the issue that we should be focusing on is SPRAWL, not SUBURBS. New developments take from the entire area, when they are done without planning and consideration for the impact to the entire region. Unfortunately, as they say, what's done is done. We can whine about it and use a very broad brush to paint all suburbs as a new McMansion development in Wheatfield or Clarence, or we can work on highlighting the positives of the built environment. We can use a broad brush to paint all the suburbs as vinyl villages devoid of character, or we could use the contrast to sell some of the more architecturally significant buildings in Buffalo. What do we need to do this? How about fixing the real estate service for the City of Buffalo. How about advertising and showcasing homes and buildings in the city that are for sale and making them easy to purchase from the City of Buffalo. How about partnering with banks to quickly turn-over foreclosed homes to new buyers. How about advertising this to other cities where people are so under-water in their mortgages that they need to start over.

What about fixing the schools? The schools are a major issue and we cannot talk about them without blaming the suburbs for having wealthier residents and more college educated parents. There is one thing that we can do to reverse this, improve the schools. Take a look at the DC public schools as an example of where the administration and teachers are holding back progress because of they are more concerned about themselves than the students. Teachers who want to strike because they are held accountable for how well they maintain a classroom or deliver the content to students. Yes, there are more challenges in the city than the suburbs, but we need a school board and administrators who can address the issues. Take a look at some of the headlines relating to discipline issues and lack of leadership in the BPS as examples of where we can improve.

We have many other issues that we need to address, and we need leadership and a fresh perspective to overcome these issues that are currently obstacles to our growth and future. Instead of infighting with other local residents in our region, we should be focusing on attracting new residents to the area. We lose too many people to other areas of the country. Have we spoken with some of them to figure out why they are leaving? Have we spoken with the ones who have returned to figure out what attracted them back? This is valuable information that we could use to figure out our path forward.

The growth of the suburbs is a symptom of the problems with the city, it is not the cause. Let's get real and focus on the root cause of our issues instead of trying to explain away our issues. If we are serious about a regional approach to government and services, then we have to figure out how to bring our area closer together. After all, our region does include the City AND the suburbs.

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Why not have the Amherst school district take over the Buffalo schools? This will solve the problem because it is obvious that the suburban school districts know how to do it.

Who is on board with this? Anyone? Amherst schools are well run and Buffalo schools are poorly run, right? Why not just have the Amherst school district manage the buffalo schools? I am sure that the results will be amazing.


replied to jimmy
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Well said!

I'm with you 100% on the schools. They are the biggest impediment to Buffalo's prosperity.

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The problem with the city schools has to do with high concentrations of poverty. Read Rusk's work for more on this.

If everyone in this area would think regionally and put in place a county-wide school district, then things would get better everywhere (of course, there would be a ton of busing needed to make this work). Virgina and many other states have county-wide school districts. Children of poverty would be disbursed evenly throughout the county - as would all other students. People in the suburbs would benefit from being about to compete for slots at City Honors, Hutch Tech, etc... as well as bringing diversity. Diversity is sorely lacking in most suburban schools and it's a disservice to us all.

Unfortunately, this will never happen. So, city residents have a few amazing options open to them in the public school arena (City Honors, Hutch Tech, DaVinci, Olmsted). Many charter schools exist as well. And, since taxes are lower in the city, residents can also more readily afford the private schools which abound in Buffalo (where many suburbanites send their kids). Scholarships to these private schools are available as well.

All things being equal (and having lived in both the suburbs and City of Buffalo), I will choose a walkable diverse community any day of the week.

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Disagree with you on the county school district: I'd hate to see that much busing. Waste of time, gas, incubator for bullying.

All Buffalo has to do is scale up programs for which there is high demand (City Honors, etc.). That will draw students from the burbs, from private schools and from charters. And as I argue all the time: go charters!

replied to bflolover
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Actually some city kids live quite close to suburban. Most suburban kids have to take long bus rides to their schools. But why not just have Amherst schools take over the city?

You suggest allowing suburban kids take advantage of the best city schools, why not let city kids take advantage of the best suburban schools?

replied to biniszkiewicz
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STEEL, we can talk in reality or continue with your gross exaggerations and over-generalizations. When you say most suburban schools take long bus rides to school, you are mistaken. Making that negative assertion based on your perception is no different than someone saying that most city school kids live in fear of gangs, or that most city schools are infested with drug dealers and thugs, or that most city school teachers don't care about their students. All of these are fallacies, based on only a limited point of reference and a desire to create a negative image through the words you choose to use.

I grew up in Fairfax County, VA and know the benefits and liabilities of the county wide system. There are failing schools along the route 1 corridor in VA, in the Herndon area, and near Falls Church. The nice thing, as you point out, is that a parent could choose to enroll their child in a different school further away from their neighborhood school. This happens frequently in Fairfax. I would fully support having Buffalo students attend Williamsville, Amherst, Orchard Park, and other districts, if the funding for those students went along with them. The problem is, as highlighted in the struggle with Charter schools, is that the Buffalo Public Schools would lose funding and control.

Do I believe that a child from Buffalo would do better in Amherst, well that depends on a number of factors. It would depend on the student, it would depend on the family, and it would depend on the situation. A discipline problem in one school may be a discipline problem in another school. A drug user in one school will find drugs in the new school. Etc, Etc, Etc. A good student in one school, will most likely be a good student in another school. The problem arises when we take the good students out of the schools and leave the discipline problems behind. This is the natural selection that occurs today, not as an option for families within the district, but by moving away from the district or by playing the education lottery and hoping for enrollment in one of the handful of truly successful Buffalo Schools.


Why not divide the City Schools into four or five districts and let te students attend Amherst, Ken/Ton, West Seneca, Cheektowaga / Sloan, and Lackawanna. Redirect funding and align charter schools accordingly, then demise the Buffalo Schools. We could go a step further and combine Williamsville with Amherst, Clarnce, and Sweet Home. Combine Orchard Park, Hamburg, West Seneca, and East Aurora / Iroquois. Combine Kenmore, Tonawanda, North Tonawanda, etc. You get the picture. Create four or five pods under one regional administration, cut out the superfluous layers and redundant services, and seriously change the way we do education in WNY.

replied to STEEL
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I am all for eliminating arbitrary regional political boundaries. Combine Buffalo schools with Tonawanda, Amherst etc. Of course we both know it will be a cold day in Hell when that happens.

Everyone loves to brag about their town's school district but we also know that the real reason the city schools fail is because of the intractable problem of generational poverty and the issues the students inherit before they ever enter school. The Vaunted Amherst schools would do no better educating kids that come from the dysfunctional homes that are so highly concentrated within the city.

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The same was said in Fairfax, VA and Charlotte, NC.

replied to STEEL
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And look how prosperous those cities have become. WNY is a different place. WNY can't even get rid of its silly villages.

One point though. Charlotte and its ilk have benefited mightily by attracting the educated and wealthy away from places like WNY. They don't have the same level of inner city poverty there to contend with.

replied to jimmy
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Buffalo is a few bank mergers away from "stealing" back a lot of those Charlotte bankers. KeyCorp stock is trading so low, I can only wonder why the gang at M&T haven't already snatched it up...

replied to STEEL
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One Erie County School District, with every child required to attend the nearest school, and all the schools being equally good. How radical.

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Except that the suburban Republicans are itching for enacting school choice which means kids should be able to choose where they go to school.

replied to MrGreenJeans
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Thank you, somebody else with a brain does understand. I have listened for some years now as my UB professors wrongly go along with the 'downsizing', 'shovel ready infill', ideas which everbody knows, DO NOT HAPPEN. (Its like long term weather forecasting, they are dead or forgot by the time they are proven wrong.)

The quality of PLANNING education MUST improve, and Kunstler is one such breath of the fresh air that is needed. But UB planners and their kind, don't except it because it came from none a planner. There is no research money, in common sense, only in manipulatable statistics reported in somebody’s quarterly journal, upon which we can get fund… from some government agency.

Just as the polemic refuses over and over to take signs down (read 'Traffic'), or repealing a code or two to facilitate growth... because they don't want to relinquish the power they have stolen from the property owner, they refuse to understand DEMO means….. to destroy.

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