
From a Possible "Demolition by Neglect" to Relocation

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Buffalo has a great track record for reusing abandoned churches.
St. Gerard should stay where it is. We should be a model of successful preservation and reuse NOT a case study showing how to relocate our culture and history to another part of the country.
Buffalo has successfully reused some churches, but the only conversions that have been viable have been in more affluent areas of the city (Bryant Parish Condos, Ashbury Hall, North Park Apartments). St. Gerard's is at Delavan and Bailey. The cost required to convert that church into apartments or something else is going to far exceed the going rate for space in that area. So, until there is another parish willing to take it over (unlikely) or a Renaissance of the Delavan/Bailey area (a long way off) it's going to sit vacant.
I vote to move it. It'll be interesting to watch.
Amen to that! St Girard's has to and will stay in Buffalo. Our churches are some of our most iconic buildings; they contribute in no small way to our international reputation for this period in American architecture. You don't treat a resource like this with lazy skepticism. Imagination, boldness and stubborn pride kept many churches and other buildings in Buffalo from disappearing. They will keep this one here too.
Whether they are used or not, these buildings are part of the urban topography, the history, and daily walking/driving experience of a neighborhood. No country with architectural treasures that have gone fallow removes them; that kind of thinking would have allowed the pyramids to fall, the Roman aqueducts to tumble, and the long abandoned churches that dot the British countryside to become parking.
Egypt, Italy and Britain have climates which allow for ancient relics. Buffalo has no such climate. Heat & Use or LOSE, is how buildings go here. Anything unheated, unused, and unloved in our region WILL return to the earth in just a few years. You did see the plants growing on St.G's roof, no??
Sop, better to have Transfiguration II: The Sequel than to see the building survive? Yes, it's a valuable part of the urban fabric, but with no viable alternative uses, and no money to keep it mothballed (as MrGreenJeans wrote, heat is critical), it seems like there's only a few choices left.
1) Move it somewhere else in the area. We don't seem to have the money to do so, unfortunately.
2) Move it somewhere else in the country. They're more likely to have the money to pull it off.
3) Keep it, watch it deteriorate along with the surrounding neighborhood, and either watch it turn into a n urban exploration destination or see it eventually burn a la St. Mary's. After all, it's OURS!
What manual to cities writes in stone that a building has to be "useful" and buzzing for it to be a valuable or beautiful part of urban topography? That's the thinking of some cloned urban planner writing for Time magazine. The grain elevators do just fine the way they are. Many abandoned churches grace corners all over Buffalo...they are exquisite; they ring with beauty and spirit. They all may dissolve in thirty or a hundred years. Fine. Then let something worthy to replace them rise.
Second, why such a cramped suburban mindset about the city and its neighborhoods? All cities rise and fall, neighborhoods come and go, and though your tarot cards say the neighborhood is worthless until the trumpet sounds, and that no group could ever possibly do anything with this gem, my crystal ball says different. No one really knows.
So, I don't know these people from Georgia and I don't want them to take this church out of my city where it gives me and other people pleasure, when it is not as far gone as other churches that have soldiered on, and when this city needs every stitch of its past. Because that's the kind of city Buffalo will be in the future, a city that wears its past. Some cities do this, some do not. But I see this as the most plausible way for Buffalo to survive with an individual identity, one that will attract people with imagination and taste.
Buffalo needs this church far more than the good people of Georgia--if they don't get this church they will surely build another. If we lose this church we lose it forever. And then what have we gained?
Funny, I just saw the church on an 18 wheeler pulled over at a Bob Evans off of the I-85S. I think I might have even say a Bulldogs bumpersticker on one of the pews.
It was on it's way to being stored in the Statler.
I can't help to feel that this is nothing short of rape of our city's heritage and fiber. I pray we find an alternative.
If there is one thing we have in excess, it's closed up churches. Someone suggested in one discussion on the subject the idea of turning churches into mausoleums, which I think is inspired.
But girlinthebuff is right about the surrounding neighborhoods making a few conversions feasible, but few is the operative word.
If that Georgian congregation can relocate and care for the place, god bless them, imo. Unless someone else jumps to the plate with a superior plan, don't keep this beautiful structure away from somebody else out of greed or spite. If you can't take care of it yourself, let someone else.
I guess it makes one question: could the investment into the building give new life to the surrounding area?
No. When the church was maintained and the heart of a functioning parish, decline continued unabated.
D-B has a reputation as a gang-infested, dangerous neighborhood that will be impossible to overcome. Immigration, or an economic boom that makes housing elsewhere in Buffalo unaffordable to the middle class, is about it.
so, couldnt it be moved to a more VIABLE part of Buffalo that would warrant investment?
I'd love to see that, but who has the money? St. Gerard's beats St. Gregory's or any of the post-WWII hanger churches in suburban parishes, but are they parishioners willing to pay for the upgrade?
Who wrote this article? The last sentence is just lame leading the witness type questioning. Disappointing way to start a thoughtful debate about this topic.
Good point. Why is it automatically presumed that the structure will die a slow death?
How about this: make the former church the city's largest so-called "deli". We could get the East Side's worst sign painters to coat the building in high-gloss yellow and orange Home Depot "oops paint", and then cover every surface of the building in amateurish signage that lists every item sold in the store, and put "FULL LINE OF GROC" in 20-foot tall letters on each facade, making sure the last letters are squeezed in at the end because the first letters were too wide. Maybe add a few stop the killing-themed murals, too. The store would have the nation's largest selection of malt liquor in 40 ounce bottles, blunts, tiny baggies, and cold cuts so old they're better described as science experiments.
Yeah, you're right. Besides, I forgot the part about having 50 lottery banners, a few portable signs on the sidewalk, and "WE EXCEPT (sic) W.I.C. AND FOOD STAMPS" proclamations.
Co'mon Dan. Tone down the realism, this site is for day dreamers. I say we turn the Church into a clean factory employing hundreds of people (at least half minority) making green products everyone wants.
I say we retrofit it to be the new brodcasting studio for AM930. They can bring their concept of reality and impose it on the segment of the population that needs it the most.
We will call it the center for realism.
Maybe it could be converted into an experimental Ikea store?
You forgot about the huge yellow vinyl awning with a now-disconnected phone number prominently displayed on it.
Oh yeah. The bubble awning. That's a step up from the signage that is painted directly to a building surface. Nothing says "I want to evade the city's maximum wall signage requirement" quite like the loophole of a bubble awning.
Consider it to be the restoration of that corner to its 1894 appearance (meaning: topsoil and plants)
we all agree that delevan-bailey is not at present an especially desirable place for most people to live or invest in. (there may well be some contented residents there who would object to our characterization of it.)
we all agree that we'd like it to see it get better.
so how will improve d-b's future if we allow what few assets it has to be poached?
"We" don't "allow" anything at that corner. The building was built by and is owned by the Catholic Diocese, and if they want to demolish it, restore it, or sell it for parts, that is their business.
It isn't "poaching" either; "poaching" is the illegal hunting & slaughter of animals on another person's land. There's no correlation here.
It is there property but it is also part of the public streetscape. Ownership of property does not give one the right to do anything they wnt with it.
Argue all we want, this place will fall down on itself within a few years unless it's moved to Georgia.
You never read the tale of the Three Little Pigs, did you?
It will not fall down for decades and decades. It'll be here long after we're all gone.
It is not poaching, but it's bad leadership and bad civic behavior on the part of the diocese. That's a reasonable thing to point out.
Remember St. Mary's on Broadway? Probably not. It burned down several years after it was abandoned.
arson, rumored to be instigated by the sainted jimmy griffin.
Jimmy Griffin was an arsonist?
Houses for sale for under $40,000 within 2 blocks walk of St. Gerard. It's cheaper than renting a trendy loft. Show your true love for Buffalo and take up residence in the seediest / neediest neighborhood. Who is with me?
hmmmm... silence.
Thats right. The only way to show support for a neighborhood is to pack up and move there. Great thinking.
So you wouldn't move to this neighborhood, but you support it? What exactly do you do to support it?
Patronize its businesses, call for saving its architectual tresures, not look down on it with Dan-like snobbish scorn...
You are right though. I have no business advocating for preservation of this landmark unless I sell my house and move in next door. That or, to echo the elitist, anti preservation mantra, dont be critical of a demolition uness I can afford to buy the place and fix it myself.
RE: protest of the 'Hobson's Choice' of either 'decay' or 'depart':
I always frame the question of this property's future that way since no one (to my knowledge) has put forth any viable plan to save this building other than relocation.
RE: "We won't allow . . ."
So are 'we' taking ownership? Are 'we' paying for the property so that 'we' may use it as we'd like to see it used? What gives us the right to spend 'their' money? The fact that we like (or don't like) someone else's property does not give us the right to tell those owners what they may or may not do with it. Except for a Very limited sense (ensuring that building codes are met, for example) GreenJeans is spot on: it ain't our property to make decisions about!
RE: "but if we allow this one, pretty soon all our old churches will be 'poached'."
Not bloody likely. Not at $15m a pop. At least their construction estimates are starting to sound a little more realistic (remember the $3m estimate?). This looks to me like a solitary experiment by a pastor who is particularly enamored of an architectural gem he can't reproduce. At this price, though, very few congregations will undertake such a venture.
Also, anyone wishing to stop these places from leaving can develop a viable plan for reuse. Make a bid. They sell dirt cheap . . .
quibble all you want with the verbs -poach- and -allow.- my question remains unanswered.
will it make a bad neighborhood better or worse for this church to be shipped away? name one newly vacant lot that has had a beneficial effect on its surroundings. why should a wealthy congregation have the privilege of inflicting even more damage upon a poor neighborhood?
this move is bad for the building as an object, as steel puts it, and bad for buffalo.
What's worse, a vacant lot, or a vacant lot with an urban ruin? Does the area around Sycamore and Fillmore benefit from the ruins of Transfiguration?
The only thing that should go down to Georgia is the Devil.
I said it before; a birth certificate that says "Buffalo" should not be a ball and chain. Should people live in the cities or neighborhoods of their birth their entire lives?
Good point. If we all agree there's nothing at all wrong with talented important people moving to other states for their reasons, what's wrong with a few buildings moving?
If some day eventually Buffalo has a real turn-around, maybe some buildings could be moved here too.
Here's a less radical and disruptive idea: a group of Georgia suburbanites give up their overpriced McMansions, move to Buffalo, and adopt a church in a troubled city neighborhood.
Who wants a bunch of classless suburban 'Relos' that are more interested in their shoes than where they live? A lot of those people don't even bother unpacking their stuff when they move into lovely their new McMansion.
And give up their families, friends, jobs, and so on? Yeah, that's really less disruptive than moving a church the surrounding neighborhood could care less about.
Not everybody in the suburbs is a wealthy McMansion dweller, either.
How about having all of you good Catholics move from Elmwood Village to Delavan-Bailey and start attending daily mass at St. G's?
You don't really expect them to do what jesus would do..do you?
Steel, I have to challenge your assumption that Jesus would act in this way. You've suggested this line before. Each time I hear you posit the suggestion that somehow Jesus would be worried about these old church buildings, I think you're very off base. Jesus wouldn't give a damn (to coin a phrase) about any particular buildings. If Jesus was in charge of the Catholic purse strings, I think it's much more likely he'd divest of all their trappings entirely. I think he'd laugh at all the ridiculous pomp and ceremony of the Christians.
Jesus said of the Pharisees: "They are like dogs sleeping in the feeding troughs of the cattle. They neither eat themselves nor allow the cattle to eat". That is precisely the way I see religious 'leaders' today. These church buildings they constructed are little more, to my mind, than monuments to a miserably failed misinterpretation of the nature of life.
If you want to save these places, fine. Just do it on your own dime. Don't you dare tax me to do it just because you happen to like them.
I think the point was that he would live in this neighborhood, or ones like it. Not that he would care about buildings.
However, on the human side, since religion is all about symbols and Catholic churches exist as symbols, abandoning the buildings is then symbolic of abandoning the neighborhoods in which they exist. That is the clearly how the Church operates, and it is very un-Christ-like, IMO.
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
And you have it bass ackwards, btw: it's not the church which abandoned the neighborhood, it's the neighborhood which abandoned the church. THAT is what this symbolizes. Have you ever gone to masses in these old churches? Did you need both hands to count all the congregants?
Those who decry the church's surplussing of these white elephants insist that somehow the diocese has some moral obligation to care for these properties in perpetuity, regardless of income, regardless of expense. That is patently ridiculous, imo. Because you happen to like their franchise stores when they were open, they have some obligation to keep those stores open forever and ever? Beg to differ.
CHRISHAWLEY - We can't find many in Buffalo who want to move to Ken - Bailey, so why would we expect someone from Georgia to do it? If we are worried about Ken - Bailey then we need people to move to Ken - Bailey to turn it around. Right now we are losing more residents than we bring in. What do you expect will be the outcome if this trend continues?
The Georgia group has a web site for this project. The arrogant tag line on the site is. "Moving 900 miles into the future" so I suppose that once you move to sprawltopia the present day poverty of the inner city somehow becomes part of the past. It is magic! Maybe if you move all of Buffalo's buildings to sprawltopia with pleanty of parking we can eradicate all poverty.
The achiitecture of a building is more than just the bulding as an object. Time and place play a part in themeaning of a building as architecture. Moving this building to an empty field with los of adjacent parking is not saving this building anymore than hanging some antiques in a TGIF is saving those objects. I think it is a trite and selfish move. The Catholic church could sell one statue out of its Vatican museum and endow this building forever. It could sell a couple more and start to make a difference in the lives of the people in this desperate neighborhood. Jeasus washed the feet oe the unwashed. These present day Catholics recoil from the unwashed. Very sad.
As for the city and WNY in general, how sad that they so wilingly allow its amazing herritage go. How can there be so few who have an appreciation for these things. Every church in the city should have landmark pretection! Where is the proactive leadership. People will line up at midnight to be the first into a new Walmart but have absolutely no interest in an amazing one of a kind irreplacable treasure like this. Its very very sad.
I noticed also in the article that they do not plan on saving the interior murals, one of teh most beautiful parts of the building. So anyone ecited about teh so called "save" of this building should think twice about what this actually is.
I quite agree with you on this. The London Bridge lost all meaning and relevance when it was carted off to Lake Havasu. This church is the product of the Buffalo community and loses all context in a place like Georgia where most churches were basically built of whitewashed wooden slats. This congregation should just use the money they raise to build their own stone church the way they like it and the Diocese of Buffalo should be heavily fined for selling off the city's cultural patrimony.( assuming that's possible :)
Then all of you like minded folks can tithe yourselves to preserve these behemoths to a failed interpretation of the divinity of life. But do not tax me to save every church building. No fway!
It's not going to affect your taxes one dime.
People on this site are calling for government to preserve these buildings. Of course that would cost money, and from taxpayers.
And don't tax me for highways no way...Oh wait I have no chice in the matter. I am forced to pay for these things that I have no use for.
Well, I agree with you on that. Highways should be funded by gas taxes, or auto and truck and bus taxes, period. They shouldn't be paid for out of general funds. Users should pay, not everyone else.
There is no reason for the government to fund restoration at this point. Just save the place and then we can look to funding options once the place has a wny future.
Is there any local historic designation that could be given that tie the dioceses hands and prevent demolition?
First of all, let me use a quote from the USA Today article on the move of St. Gerard's to Georgia:
"Mazur, the last pastor, conducts a tour, pointing out the intimate items destined for Georgia, including the stained glass window in which the face of the child sitting on Jesus' lap is that of the founding pastor's grandniece and the bronze plaque on the back wall with the names of parishioners lost in World War II."
That paragraph right there makes me feel very strongly that St. Gerard's should stay in Buffalo.
Also.... I commented about half a year ago that the Georgia congregation's figure of $3 million to move and reconstruct the Church in Georgia seemed ridiculously low. So now they've revised it by about oh...$10 million! What's going on here? So OK, now that's $13 million minimum to move the Church to Georgia. That's $13,000 a family (estimating a very large 1000 family parish) just to move it there and re-assemble it. Then they have to pay for the yearly maintenance and heating and air-conditioning, etc. That's a lot of money per family. The Buffalo News states "...the Archdiocese of Atlanta has experienced tremendous growth — counting 850,000 Catholics now, up from 311,000 a decade ago." In case anybody is wondering, going from 300 thousand to almost 900 thousand Catholics in 10 years means only one thing to me... a hell of a lot of Mexicans. Those are some very well off recent immigrants from Mexico that can afford a $13 million dollar Church. I guess they emigrated from Mexico to find some beautiful Northeastern Church to spend all their excess money on. Something sounds very fishy to me about this whole deal. Also, I think that the Georgia architects that came up with this estimate of $13 million for the move and re-assembling of St. Gerard's need to post their estimate somewhere so that we can see what they are actually talking about. Also, why doesn't somebody in Buffalo in charge of "selling" this Church add up the cost of all the materials used in St. Gerard's (i.e. granite, marble, stained glass windows, bells, etc.) and get a true value for this Church? I bet it will be a lot more than what the congregation in Georgia is willing to pay for the actual church (but in effect that is exactly how much the city of Buffalo will be losing, monetarily). Enough about the thieves from Norcross who are either too lazy or too stupid to build their own Church (I had to say it).
Instead of moving the whole massive Church 900 miles south, why can't the City of Buffalo come up with the money to move it 5 or 6 miles to downtown Buffalo so that the GREAT people of Buffalo can enjoy it for the next 100 years? There must be some use for such an amazing building, even if it can't find another life as a Church. Anyways, I think that the people involved in promoting this move will quietly try to sneak this deal through while nobody is paying attention. And once the purchase contract is signed, there's probably not a lot anybody in Buffalo can do about it. So the move of St. Gerard's Church to the south needs to be stopped before something like that can happen. Stay vigilant!
> Instead of moving the whole massive Church 900 miles south,
> why can't the City of Buffalo come up with the money to
> move it 5 or 6 miles to downtown Buffalo so that the GREAT
> people of Buffalo can enjoy it for the next 100 years?
Sure. Just get this law repealed if you want it to remain a place of worship, and the City to foot the bill.
BR ate my HTML! The First Amendment would likely prevent the city from moving the building, if its continued use will be as a place of worship. It would be a municipal subsidy of religion.
not true. environmental protection fund money can be used on national register properties, including houses of worship.
http://www.nysparks.com/grants/historic-preservation/default.aspx
first the south steals our population, now they want to take our buildings? this is very sad, the only thing we should send to georgia is the 1 million chicken wing bones left over from "wing fest" to dump in their landfills.
I don't remember any Southerners dragging Buffalonians to Charlotte or Raleigh by gunpoint. Buffalonians that left for the south did so, often reluctantly, because they wanted or needed to.
The only people stolen by the South were from western Africa.
No, I used to post as Dblplusgood, but was blocked. The quote above was from South Park and is used pretty frequently on the Internet.
Oh my bad. That line was a favorite of the commenter FKA O'Brien.
I didnt know BR could block people. Was it because of the "Your comments are appreciated..." stuff?
I was blocked for those comments and for calling someone an "arrogant d-bag".
We need to stop treating our architecture as expendable. This city is defined by those that came before us and dreamed, worked for, and built these great old buildings. They were able to look past instant gratification and had the perseverance and foresight to contribute to a better future for their city.
The history of all great cities is a state of constant flux, this neighborhood may be challenged today but 20 or 30 years from now that could very well change. We need to preserve this church out of respect to those that built it and to provide the foundation for the eventual renewal of this old neighborhood.
Sorry, but none of the East Side neighborhoods that experienced socioeconomic transition since 1950 has had a turnaround. Masten Park didn't fall hard, but the rest are a lot worse for the wear.
A few once-troubled, predominantly African-American neighborhoods that are experiencing gentrification:
* Denver: Five Points, North Park Hill, Cole
* New York: Harlem, parts of the Bronx, parts of Brooklyn
* Chicago: Uptown (and it's still struggling)
* Columbus: Victorian Village
* Austin: East Side/MLK Street.
* Houston: First Ward
* Atlanta: Fourth Ward
* Washington: various neighborhoods
They seem to have the right formula for gentrification; a middle-class housing stock that held up well, distinctive architecture and a mostly-intact urban fabric, regional population growth, proximity to a _prosperous_ downtown and other healthy neighborhoods, and/or housing prices in the region reached a point that was so astronomical those neighborhoods were among last places where a middle-class household could afford to buy property in a desirable urban setting.
Proximity to medical campuses, universities and so on don't matter; look at Hough across the street from the Cleveland Clinic, or the area surrounding Temple University in Philadelphia.
Delavan-Bailey and Kensington were both working-class to lower middle-class neighborhoods in their day. The houses are small, and the majority of them have been altered to a point where they retain almost none of their original architectural integrity; wrought iron disease hit that part of town hard, along with other mods. The commercial strips are taking on a "ghetto" feel; tacky Yemeni delis, predatory businesses like furniture rental and payday loans, and a growing number of gaps in the streetscapes of Bailey and Delavan Avenues just to name a few issues. The neighborhoods are featured on television newscasts nearly every day for shootings or some other violence. It saddens me to say this, but the odds of Northeast Buffalo making a comeback are remote. The ingredients seen in other gentrifying or revitalizing African-American neighborhoods just aren't there.
* Denver: Five Points, North Park Hill, Cole
* New York: Harlem, parts of the Bronx, parts of Brooklyn
* Chicago: Uptown (and it's still struggling)
* Columbus: Victorian Village
* Austin: East Side/MLK Street.
* Houston: First Ward
* Atlanta: Fourth Ward
* Washington: various neighborhoods
They all have one thing in common... Rich white folks who are willing to buy condos in refurbished neighborhoods after the poor black folks have been moved elsewhere.
Hamlin Park never gentrified or reintegrated, save for some student housing. It basically turned from a middle-class German and Jewish neighborhood into a middle-class black neighborhood.
The people demanding that the recycling of this building elsewhere shouldn't be allowed sound unreasonable. Hopefully the building owners will just ignore them.
It's good to see at least half the comments above are more open-minded voices of reason about this - girlinthebuff, SLMullet, MrGJ, Bini, Dan, ...
I'd still be surprised if the move ever happens, but if the Georgians find a way to do it they should be allowed to.
Preserving the communties cultural treasures isnt reasonable? Maybe to some the "voice of reason" doesnt advocate architechtural plundering of local assets.
Why not, Buffalo doesn't want it and we can't find a use for it. We should let someone who needs it use it. I agree with Whatever on this one.
My issue was the lable of "unreasonable" whatever applied to those he disagreed with even though some had pretty reasonable arguments and calling the others "open minded voices of reason" when it was obvious a few were motivated by grudges and bitterness.
If you guys are in favor of the demolition thats fine but dont try claiming your opinion is superior by using silly lables.
Dude... you are the last one who should be pointing fingers or calling someone out for having an agenda. Get real little bro!
Did I fault anybody for an agenda in that comment? Again your opinion is yours but dont pretend that its the product of being "open minded".
Merely disagreeing with me isn't necessarily unreasonable. Often times, a topic will have 2 or more opposite points of view that can each have reasonable arguments.
But in this case, the arguments commented here against the possible move do sound unreasonable to me. At least all I've seen so far.
For example:
"iluvpitbulls replied to comment from sho'nuff
February 6, 2010 6:56 PM
But if its moved it isnt saved. ..."
That sounds to me like ego-filled Buffalo Drama Syndrome. This shouldn't be about Buffalo.
You haven't explained what is "unreasonable" about my argument above.
Much of the terms of your argument are beyond unreasonable; they seem simplistic, cocksure, and snide.
EricOak>"they seem simplistic, cocksure, and snide"
Are you projecting qualities of your comments onto mine?
"EricOak replied to comment from hamp
February 5, 2010 5:43 PM
...St Girard's has to and will stay in Buffalo. ...They will keep this one here too. ..."
The above from you sounds much more simplistic ("has to"), cocksure ("will"), and snide (your above comment to me) than anything I've written.
Perhaps you consdier your own opinions so great that they could never be simplistic, cocksure, and snide... but your comments even when good, often sound those ways. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's ironic that you refer to my comments those ways in a negative light. [shrug]
What's unreasonable about wanting to block the proposed reuse and recycling in Georgia (which as I said, I doubt the Georgians will go through with anyway) is obvious and explained by quite a few people above in this thread. It involves supply-demand, selfishness, ego, "Buffalo drama", and being unrealistic.
Well my reasoning behind that was assets like this place ought to be preserved for the community in which it was built. We should celebrate our civic history and keeping these relics or a more prosperous time is an effective way of doing that. Once it is removed it is no longer preserved as far as the Ken-Bailey neighborhood or the city are concerned. If the materials ever find their way to Georgia and are used to build a new church its better than wasting them in a landfill but its still lost as far as our community is concerned. So yes, in this case it is about Buffalo. That is reasonable. You may disagree but that does not change the reasoning behind my opinion.
Your comment above was an attempt to put a negative spin on the commenters you disagree with by calling them "unreasonable". Meanwhile, you give a false sense of validity to those you agree with by calling them "open minded voices of reason" implying they all based their opinion on objectively weighing all factors to form a "reasonable" opinion.
Really? The guy saying this community doesnt deserve the church because of his preceived poor aesthetics of the neighborhood(bubble awnings, "oops" paint, delis), lack of artistic sophistication (this is not the elmwood village) or because of its conentration of poverty (no gentrification, starter neighborhood) is "reasonable" to you? Why should socio-economic status or one persons high and mighty sense of taste be factors in preserving an asset for the greater community? How about your attempt to tarnish people you dont agree with by calling them names like "unreasonable or having "ego-filled Buffalo Drama Syndrome". You consider that behavior reasonable?
pitbull>"How about your attempt to tarnish people you dont agree with by calling them names like "unreasonable or having "ego-filled Buffalo Drama Syndrome". "
It isn't tarnishing or name-calling to describe a viewpoint as unreasonable.
If there's a bunch of something in a place (could be church buildings, or anything) that aren't being used, and past experience shows many of them likely won't be used and won't even be maintained long term, and if somebody else might (probably won't in the end, but might) want to use one of those somethings but it would mean moving it... then, yes, to me it sounds unreasonable to want to stop that from happening due primarily to ego and selfish pride.
So, yes it's reasonable to say views like the following sound to me unreasonable:
"I don't know these people from Georgia and I don't want them to take this church out of my city where it gives me and other people pleasure, ..."
"But if its moved it isnt saved. ..."
That isn't tarnishing or name calling. If the shoe of unreason fits, people can wear it - or not.
The ego-filled Buffalo drama is evident. For example,
"...and when this city needs every stitch of its past. Because that's the kind of city Buffalo will be in the future, a city that wears its past." [Every stitch of its past? Seriously? Every? Needs?]
"a group of Georgia suburbanites give up their overpriced McMansions, move to Buffalo, ..." [So if the building was being moved to another Rust Belt city of our income demographics, the move would be ok?]
"first the south steals our population, now they want to take our buildings?" [Steals?]
(Why would I suppose we wouldn't hear all that if somebody wanted to move something to Buffalo instead of from it?)
Whatever>"The ego-filled Buffalo drama..."
I see that is your new catch phrase.
But what does historic preservation have to do with ego? If you ask me the soapbox rants of supply and demand, condescending spite towards the neighborhood, false claims of being grounded in reality and reason, and typical anti Buffalo smuggery are a lot more egotistical than prople trying to save an asset for the betterment of their community.
Whatever>"It isn't tarnishing or name-calling to describe a viewpoint as unreasonable"
It is if you call a reasonable argument unreasonable just because you disagree with it. For example, many here have argued that this place should not be saved because they feel it is a poor use of public funds. I disagree and think the argument is borderline irrelevant at this stage but, like it or not, it is a reasonable gripe. The guy saying the neighborhood no longer deserves the church because of socio-economic changes is unreasonable.
Whatever>"If there's a bunch of something in a place (could be church buildings, or anything) that aren't being used, and past experience shows many of them likely won't be used and won't even be maintained long term, and if somebody else might (probably won't in the end, but might) want to use one of those somethings but it would mean moving it... then, yes, to me it sounds unreasonable to want to stop that from happening due primarily to ego and selfish pride"
The first sentance is not true. Churches are re-used all the time either being sold to another denomination or religious group, or in rare cases, converted to something else. You can find fault with preservation all you want but there is nothing egotistical or selfish about saving a landmark that the entire community will benifit from. Nice try though.
I am thinking $19 mill isn't really enough for thsi proeject
Likely scenario:
1.Contractor de-constructs church and sends it due south.
2.Process of carefully removing large blocks of masonry, stained glass and other details burns through majority of the budget.
3.Other, pressing needs come up for limited funds so the re-construction is put on hold indefinately.
4.Church is a) kept away in a warehouse forever a la bank of Buffalo facade or b) is stored outdoors and left to be picked over by vandals and returns to the earth.
A priceles, irreplaceable piece of WNY history rotting in the Georgia sun.
More likely scenario:
- Insecure and over-bearing Buffalonians sue to stop the relocation of the church.
- Church remains unheated and uncared for as case churns through court.
- Parish in Georgia finds another church to suit their needs.
- Church in Buffalo remains vacant and ownership is transferred to the city.
- Church becomes subject of snarky internet blog that begs for a buyer.
- Church is repeatedly vandalized, and left open to elements.
- Church is sitting in a vacant neighborhood, and rots beyond repair.
- Demolition order is placed, preservationists make a last ditch attempt to have it added to Historic Registry. Attempt fails and we blame the system.
- Church is eventually demolished due to safety reasons.
- Snarky internet bloggers talk about what a shame this because no one cared enough to try to save the church. No one wants to talk about the missed opportunity of relocating the church to Georgia.
> More likely scenario:
> [snip]
Sho' nuff.
Thats a better scenario than mine. At least if the church stays there is a chance at saving it.
Yes, a slight chance... Is it better to have a 100% chance of preserving the church by moving it, or a 5% chance of saving it by keeping it here?
But if its moved it isnt saved. Besides there is no guarantee that it ever gets rebuilt.
There are very few guarantees in life, but life goes on anyway.
Where's the tears, hair-pulling, and gnashing of teeth over old Protestant churches and synagogues on the East Side? Kensington and Delavan-Bailey were two of the East Side's only neighborhoods that really weren't dominated by one ethnic group. Germans were a plurality in Kensington, resulting in an abundance of Lutheran churches. However, most of the congregations are gone, and nobody blinked an eye. The Baptist, AME, Full Gospel, Pentecostal and independent congregations that took the place of the departed Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Methodists didn't have the financial resources of the former congregations, and many once-grand Protestant churches, as well as large synagogues and modest shuls, are in rough shape, and even abandoned.
Why should former Catholic churches be the only houses of worship worth saving?
translation: "protestant and jewish places of worship got trashed so we have to let the same thing happen to catholic churches, too."
p.s. i'm not catholic, protestant, jewish, or any religion, so this isn't denominational loyalty talking.
With so many who aren't catholic, protestant, jewish, or any other religion, is it any surprise that so many places of worship have closed?
in a word, no. believers abandoned this church and they weren't driven out by a neighborhood invasion of militant secular humanist terrorists, contrary to the lurid fantasies of lou/christine/johnqbuffalo. the people who live there now are probably as observant as the people who used to live there, only they're protestant instead of catholic.
so, non-believers had nothing to do with this predicament, unless the catholic diocese of buffalo harbors lots of closet atheists. i wonder if it is guilt or shame -at least in part- motivating local catholics to support its relocation.
Could be because this article was about a catholic church. But if a savable protestant church, temple or mosque is targeted for demolition or "preservation" by re location Ill start the hair pulling.
I like the mausoleum idea that Bob suggested. I think it's worth exploring.
These buildings aren't costing anyone any money - they've always been tax exempt, although the city is now starting to put them on the tax rolls since they are no longer being used as houses of worship. Not helpful by the city.
If the Diocese thinks you're a qualified buyer, they will practically give the buildings away. I've opposed the sales price of two west side churches (as a member of the finance committee for the merged parish), and the Diocese has turned a deaf ear. They just want the buildings sold, even though I believe they could get more than they are accepting.
For anyone who likes Mitch Albom, try his new book - "Have a Little Faith." In one sense, the Church is not the buildings - it's the people and their faith. But in another sense, the people built these churches at great sacrifice & with much love to express their faith. They also built them for their children & future generations, & also to remind us: "we were here, please remember us." For me, these buildings are time machines to our past & to our future. They remind us that it's possible to live a thoughtful, productive & giving life, even if you don't believe in any organized religion or any God.
You don't turn your back on that kind of gift, and you don't let it go.
agreed. a mausoleum is an excellent reuse. hello, forest lawn...?
did anyone even try such organizations as:
partners for sacred places
sacred sites international foundation
save america's treasures
all of these are funders. if i posted links, i'd land in the bro spamtrap, so you have to look them up yourself.
grad94>"did anyone even try such organizations as:
partners for sacred places
sacred sites international foundation
save america's treasures"
Are they unaware of Buffalo's growing number of vacant churches? Doubtful.
How many vacant church buildings are there in Buffalo and similar cities? Sure, there might be enough funding and mausoleum-demand for some. Some, not all.
If there's already another real demand to reuse this one (location shouldn't matter), that leaves however much mausoleum-conversion funding there is from those 3 orgs, or others, potentially for other vacant churches here or elsewhere.
I predict the Georgia move won't happen due to cost and complications of the move. But if it does, it would be a good outcome reducing the number of vacant churches here. Supply greatly exceeds funding and demand for real reuse.
>"They also built them for their children & future generations, & also to remind us: "we were here, please remember us." For me, these buildings are time machines to our past & to our future. They remind us that it's possible to live a thoughtful, productive & giving life, even if you don't believe in any organized religion or any God."
well put, and i agree completely. this is exactly why old churches matter to me -very much- as a nonbeliever and why it puzzles me that their abandonment seems to trouble believers so little.
Steve: always a pleasure to read your well considered thoughts.
Just to be clear, I'm parroting the mausoleum idea. Wish I could take credit, but it was suggested by another commenter in a previous discussion (forget who).
As for these properties not costing society a dime, well that depends. I don't object to them being tax exempt. And if we leave them the collapse, like Transfiguration, then that will be cheap enough. But some here are calling for government preservation of these structures. Preservation costs. Others demand that the Catholic Church maintain and preserve these in perpetuity. They speak as if the church were rolling in dough. But sex scandals and actuary tables have turned the table on that wealth.
I could live with ruins. Provided falling debris were not a safety issue, it wouldn't offend me to see windowless walls open to the sky. But I think most people's ideas of preservation here go quite a bit beyond that. And that effort, over the long run, will require significant dollars (which is the main reason the church feels the need to surplus these money pits).
Bob - I agree. I know first hand that the Diocese cannot afford to maintain all of the closed churches, rectories, & school buildings. The City cannot and should not put any money into them or pay for demolition. Putting CDBG (or equivalent) funds into an appropriate redevelopment would be an exception. I disagree with putting them back on the tax roles when they are vacant, simply because they are no longer used as houses of worship. That doesn't help.
That leaves us back where we began - as the stewards of our past and our future - ordinary citizens organizing to preserve the best of our past - Shea's, the Olmsted Parks, the Erie Canal terminus, the Central Terminal, the Richardson complex. The list is long, and getting longer, because I think more and more people are coming around to the idea that our great churches belong on the list.
Steve: I agree with you, too.
If a citizen's group, akin to Central Terminal's, or Shea's' could be formed to care for these, then god bless them (literally). I'm very glad about the Richardson complex. That's a big chunk of dough, though. Hard to reproduce that. Then again, in ten years, or twenty? Maybe, perhaps. If others come to view of these buildings as your side does, then maybe such funding at some future date from some source isn't an impossibility.
However, I'm skeptical that there are enough bodies and minds with skills and wallets to carry these behemoths forward to that someday. You and I can't climb up the ladder to fix the church roof.
Transfiguration is everybody's poster child of church preservation gone awry. The Diocese thought it should be demoed. Neighbors banded together to save it. A council wannabe bought it with his own dough and the Buffalo was assured by those behind the effort that this piece of Polonia would be transformed into something useful and permanent (museum was talked about most). It wasn't for lack of good intentions that Trans sits there crumbling.
Our Lady of Lourdes is available. Cheap. Where are its heroes? I don't think goodwill is going to be sufficient to save these. It's a shame, I agree. That's why I' rather see St. Gerard transported (though I agree it's unlikely to really happen).
Hey, here's my big idea of the day for church preservation: basketball courts. Take out the pews and put up some hoops. Indoor skate parks, too. Too bad it costs so damned much to keep the roofs up.
The Diocese of Buffalo should move to Georgia.
Maybe when Vick come to the Bills we can turn these churchs into dog fighting venues complete with trash barrel fires, dim lighting. It is about Reuse
I don't like the move idea. USA Today explained that not many people in the area went to the church, so they don't miss it. They miss the food pantry?
If you do not allow the area to experience the demolition of its landmarks, it will not learn to appreciate them... ever.
You cannot underwrite the Catholics by simple demo at city expense either. If the lot is empty, are they then putting the corner on the open market, or will they give us a pocket park to gather plastic bags?
No, creative reuse is the answer... perhaps another muslim holy spot is the example from Buffalo's past which the catholics might be trying to avoid via a relocation. Just put it on the market, at what it will bring. Let the next buyer use it or move it, but don't limit its use to tax deductable charity.
This is a reply to Blackrocklifer's post on Jan. 6th.
Really well said and I agree with Blackrocklifer 100% except that I would still love to see St. Gerard's relocated to downtown Buffalo.
Here's a plan - First move St. Gerard's downtown. Then over time, the city could relocate a few more of it's beautiful old Churches downtown and also continue it's refurbishing of some the existing old buildings that are already in the downtown area. Combining that with the Canal Side inner harbor revitalization project and eventually Buffalo could have a really amazing downtown that would attract visitors (after they did the casinos and falls of course), new residents and new businesses. Buffalo's historic and irreplaceable old Churches are an integral part of the on-going revitalization of the City of Buffalo.
We could rebuild it near Our Lady of Lourdes / Notre Dame de Lourdes on Main Street. Maybe we could tear down the Tourist Lodge Motel and rebuild it there? The Tourist Lodge isn't historically significant, is it?
I blame free parking and the suburbs for this.
Who actually owns the Church as of right now? The Diocese?
Associated Press article today:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100529/ap_on_re_us/us_church_move
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BR>"Would it be best to move the church to a new life in Georgia, or allow it to die a slow death here?"
I vote c: keep it here and find another use for it.
Option c, exactly. I disagree with the false Hobson's choice presented by the last sentence of this article. By that logic, we should have shipped off or demolished the Darwin Martin House, the Calumet, the Webb, the Larkin at Exchange, the Genesee (now the Hyatt), the YMCA (now the Olympic Towers), the AM&A's warehouses, the Alling & Cory warehouses, the old post office (now ECC), the Connecticut Street Armory, the Granite Works buildings, the Genesee Gateway buildings, and many, many more. Imagine if Buffalo's citizens had meekly accepted that the only choice was demolition or expatriation of these buildings, and all of them were replaced by parking lots and dollar stores?
Besides, if this church in an Atlanta suburb has $15 million to spend on a historic church, I know for a fact that there are abandoned historic churches in Atlanta that they could restore and use. Why take one of ours when they could be contributing to healing their own community? Instead they just perpetuate the sprawl that led to St. Gerard's plight in the first place.
It wasn't "sprawl" that caused socioeconomic upheaval in Delavan-Bailey. The forces that lead to the abandonment of the neighborhood by its former residents are far more nuanced and complex than just "white flight".
I grew up in Kensingtion. Believe me, there were far more to the transition of Northeast Buffalo during the late 1980s and through the 1990s than meets the eye; the deep recession of the 1980s that drove residents to leave, a die-off of older residents, cheap housing prices that attracted absentee landlords and residents of much lesser means than the established lower middle-class population, a long legacy of the area being a "starter neighborhood" with the accompanying churn, and the growth of urban prairie on the East Side creating a housing shortage in established African-American neighborhoods further to the east, among other causes.
Why didn't people stay and fight? One reason: because people weren't as emotionally attached to the area as neighborhoods like South Buffalo or Broadway-Fillmore. Remember, long before racial transition, many people who moved into northeast Buffalo intended to leave when they could afford to so so; there was always a lot of churn. Who gets nostalgic for Kensington and Delavan-Bailey? Nobody weeps for The House of Sweets, the Kensington Theater, the Midway Tavern, or Costanzo's Bakery like they do for long-lost institutions in Broadway-Fillmore. People just didn't care about Northeast Buffalo as much, and the city made no effort to stabilize the neighborhood neither; politically, it has absolutely no clout.
I was referring more generally to the sprawl of church parishes. New churches are built in ever-widening rings, while the center is abandoned. They are building a new church in Swormville right now, while so many city churches like St. Gerard's languish and fall into ruin. I was just pointing out that this is the case in Atlanta as well and it would be a better thing for Atlanta for these funds to go into restoring their own built heritage.
I meant "Garden of Sweets". D'oh!
Like what?
* Smaller congregations can't afford it, and recent history shows that they haven't been the greatest stewards of other offloaded Diocese properties. Even smaller pre-WWII Protestant churches and synagogues throughout the city are falling into ruin, too, even though they're occupied and regularly used by African-American congregations.
* Residential? Remember, it's in Delavan-Bailey. No demand.
* Commercial? Remember, it's in Delavan-Bailey. No demand. Also, residential or commercial conversion would obliterate most of the interior architectural detail.
* Artist's performance space? Remember, it's in Delavan-Bailey. Remember, this isn't Elmwood Village we're talking about. This isn't an undiscovered neighborhood ripe for gentrification.
Unlike the remaining churches in Broadway-Fillmore/Polonia, Delavan-Bailey's former residents never had that level of attachment to the old neighborhood. The parish could not have survived on suburban churchgoers to boost attendance, unlike St. Stan's and others.
The only thing I can think of is that the wrong parish closed. Maybe the Diocese should have consolidated St. Lawrence (a small parish at the far eastern end of Delavan-Bailey) and St. James (the infamous "basement church"; a nondescript temporary structure built after WWI in Kensington) into St. Gerard, but what's done is done.
Dan>"Artist's performance space? Remember, it's in Delavan-Bailey. Remember, this isn't Elmwood Village we're talking about. This isn't an undiscovered neighborhood ripe for gentrification"
Only people living in the EV or some other gentrified area are interested in art?
Artist performance space or some type of community center sound like a decent idea.
And who would pay for this to be converted to art space? The tax payers? The city doesn't have the money, the county may go to a hard control board, it's broke, the state is broke. It's unfortunate to see the catholic church treat treasures like this the way they do but what is done is done. We can't keep using tax dollars for everything when so many jobs have been lost during these hard times. With taxes in NYS being what they are we need to reduce spending followed by reducing taxes to help entice the population from leaving and hopefully see a rise in the areas population. No developer is going to step in to this building for any use. That areas demographics do not make it a viable choice for development.
I wouldnt be opposed to government involvement in saving this place. As you and I have discussed at length, IMO the govt blows its money on far more wasteful and counterproductive projects than cultural and historic preservation. However as you pointed out, asking any level of govt for funding during our present economic crisis may not be realistic.
There are other ways of raising money such as soliciting private companies and philanthopic institutions(starting with the catholic church), fundraisers, community groups etc. Either way I dont think the funding source needs to e identified before making the decision is made to keep the place alive. Save it now and worry how to pay for it later. Time is a factor but contrary to a few claims in this discussion, the place isnt going to disolve by next spring.