City January 7, 2010 10:30 AM

The Statler and Rocco Termini

The Statler and Rocco Termini
Local developer Rocco Termini knows exactly what he'd like to see done to save the Statler Building, but he says he wouldn't sign on without the University of Buffalo.

Specifically, Rocco would like to see the UB Law School become a tenant of the Statler.  "It makes perfect sense," Termini says.  "Most major cities have their law schools downtown.  Just like the medical school is being built around the hospitals, law students need to be where the courts are."

At present, the UB 2020 Comprehensive Physical Plan calls for a law school on the South Campus, but Termini believes the missed opportunity to move the school downtown is yet another Buffalo-style glitch in planning.

"UB's position is that they've already made their plans, but that needs to be rethought," he argues. Termini is developing the AM&A's Warehouse and the Lafayette Hotel, and says, he would tackle the Statler if he knew UB were on board.  

"The big problem with a building like this - the hard part - is finding a use for it.  If UB said they'd become a tenant, I'd do it.  This is not a commercial investment for them, but as tenants, they would take up a good third of the building with the school and student housing," Termini states.  "Then the whole development, with 750,000 square feet of space, becomes easier."

UB's Robert Shibley says that the Statler was looked at early on in UB's plans, and there simply was no fit.  "We wish it fit our needs. We have three distinct campuses, and it doesn't meet our needs to be spread out further," Shibley says.  He goes on to say that if UB chose to be a campus with isolated satellite buildings, this would be fine, but what UB is and has been is a model of collaboration within schools and in proximity to student life.  "It doesn't meet our needs to distribute our assets further," he explains.  "Being a major university requires us to assert our commitment to our physical place."

Furthermore, Shibley says that the logic of the medical school, which is actually five schools, as opposed to the law school, is that it is best served when consolidation with medical and research facilities, and therefore is not a comparable to the thought of moving the law school off of South Campus.  "Wherever possible, our objective is to align development and consolidation, but we attempt to avoid distribution of our management assets and the collaboration it fosters."  

Keep in mind that UB recently completed an extensive two-year effort that identified the Buffalo Niagara Medical Campus as their downtown focus within the three-campus master plan.  The effect of the removal of UB law school from South Campus would have its own ramifications were the school to be moved downtown.

That being said, Shibley hopes a plan is found for the Statler, which he says is "clearly a valued structure that's important to the community. I hope they can find a way to use it well."

Termini is frustrated by resistance to his idea at a time that he feels is crucial in order to avoid making past mistakes yet again. "We've had a few opportunities like this," he says, "and we've always blown it.  The chance for a Buffalo waterfront stadium, UB on the waterfront.  We have this stubborn attitude toward change."


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"Today's meeting involved a good discussion about the University at Buffalo's strategic plan and the university's role in the economic development of our community." This statement was issued jointly after yesterday's meeting in which Un... Read More

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UB's position sounds reasonable. I think Rocco should come up with a new idea. Understand where he is coming from but i dont think that is the best idea.

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Even if UB law does not go in here this is exactly the kind of thought process that should be done. If ECC city had not been put into the old post office that building would have been lost 25 years ago. Metro Buffalo needs to consolidate and make use of existing major assets before it will ever be able to grow again.

Interesting to note however. The Statler is closer to the new downtown medical campus than parts of the Amherst spine are to the Ellicott complex. Some portions of the Amherst campus are separated by more than 2 times the distance from Statler to the medical campus. This pretty much nullifies Shibley's argument.

Universities that mix with the city are always better than those on isolated campuses.

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doesn't ub has a big law library which would have to follow the law school? if the statler is engineered to handle the weight, bingo! building filled. so, go rocco!

thnx for taking apart the shibley argument, steel. he's a smart guy with the ear of powerful people. he squanders the privilege when he defends the indefensible.

everyone loves to kick around joel giambra but i loved his proposal to unite all 3 ecc campuses downtown. he was 110% right on that one.

replied to STEEL
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I fully supported and still support ONE ECC Campus in Downtown. The visions for new buildings over the empty lots around the Bus Terminal won me over and finally a use for the mini park with the broken water fountain across from the Parking Ramp. But, I hope UB is reading this story and thinks about the idea and how much more sense this makes.

replied to grad94
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The proximity of the undergraduate dorms to the main undergraduate campus is a different relationship than the proximity of the Medical School and the Law School.

I could support your argument if this was about moving one of the medical schools into the Statler, and Shibley stated that the distance was too great, but we are talking about two unrelated schools. The proximity between the medical school and law schools does not matter, law being on the south campus makes sense in that regard.

Based on Shibley's comment and the UB 2020 plan, it sounds like UB is interested in three central campuses instead of multiple buildings distributed throughout the area.

replied to STEEL
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doesn't UB already have a crazy amount of buildings already spread out all over the place? the Butler Mansion on North/Delaware, the M Wile building, i'm sure there are a ton others i don't even know about. i understand not spreading too thin, but it is the largest school in the state, and it is pretty silly not having the law school downtown. another bush league thing in buffalo

replied to jimmy
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Too bad ECC doesn't need more space quicker. Their Lafayette Square classes and whatnot could have a little room to breathe

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Shibley is out of his mind if he thinks that the Law Students want anything to do with Fraternity parties in University Heights, or Main Street bars, or anything to do with North Campus. South Campus is being re-worked, but right now it still is considered awful. Rocco's idea would seem to make sense and shibley's defense against it, makes little sense. As far as "to avoid distribution of our management assets" Okay, I get it, don't move everything, just maybe classes, and the professor's offices.

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I don't understand UB's concept either. Why not have a Law School right in the center of all the Court Houses? Makes Sense to me. If UB is not interested, that doesn't mean we can't look at other possibilities right? I still picture an Upscale Hotel (W. Hotel, Weston, or other high end name/boutique style)along with Condos, Senior Housing (Upscale of course) and a shopping center from the main lobby to the basement and all around the first floor exterior with the Ballrooms still being used for conventions, balls, ect. and include a Luxury Lounge/Bar, restaurants. The possibilities are endless with such a huge building. I hope we get interests soon before this building gets boarded up. It was already depressing to go pass the Statler last night and see no lights on.

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yeah. perfect example to follow on a nearly identical building is the ben in philadelphia: www.theben.com . granted bigger city, different factors at play. but it's a large mixed-use building. and it looks just like the statler.

replied to Lego1981
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I dont know how I feel about this. Potential to save the building? Yes. Potential to be close to government and legal centers? Yes. Fits within a planned three campus system? No, is a satellite building floating out there away from campus. I think it effectively isolates the law school from "campus life" and some of the college experience. Scatters students about from Amherst to South Campus, to Medical Corridor, to School of Management on North Street, and now to Statler? Expands policing boundaries for University Police, etc. I don't know.

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it's LAW SCHOOL!!!!! there is no college experience. these aren't 18 year old kids looking to have fun their freshman year away from their parents. these are professionals. college experience??? that's just like someone was saying before about being distracted by the frats and main st bars. i'm pretty sure all the med students are doing fine on south campus. if you're an actor you go to hollywood. fashion designer new york. if you like cheese maybe you move to wisconsin. i don't see why it is so unfathomable to put a law school near COURTS.

replied to flyguy
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As a current law student (not UB), I have to say that there are few things I would love more than space from undergrads/other grad students, and to be located near courts and government centers. I go to an extremely hippie law school that embraces collaboration, community, etc. But, no one I know even leaves the law buildings except people in dual degree programs. Most students at my school get vicious when an undergrad sneaks into our library to use the free printers.

I think the Statler would make an excellent location for UB Law. Frankly, its present location was a huge con when I was applying to schools. The proposed location isn't much better. I think locating in the downtown core would be a boon for the school.

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Kuz, your voice and the voices of other law students who agree with you could be more valuable if you as a group approach Shibley in favor of the downtown law school. Rocco's idea is brilliant. Push for it if you feel it's right.

replied to kuz613
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Why does it have to be UB and why does it have to be a law school? IMO, this should remain a hotel.

Why not look at Buffalo State, Canisius, ECC and Buffalo Public/Charter schools for the solution. Create a joint effort Hospitality Administration school at the site?

Right now Canisius offers a degree in Hospitality Administration, Management. Buffalo State offers it as a minor in Hospitality Administration and ECC an Associates degree for Hotel Restaurant Management. Hell, you could even move the Emerson School of Hospitality to the Statler. Surely a reuse of the much smaller site on West Chippewa could find another use because of its size.

If these 4 schools were to team up, they could easily occupy 4-5 floors of the Statler for classrooms, labs and offices. The banquet facilities could be run as a partnership with a local firm in a non-profit environment.

The remaining floors could be restored to hotel rooms and suites with staffing coming partially from the students at all of these schools.

Imagine a student at the age of 16 joining the program in HS and spending 4-8 years working at this site. Getting exposure to multiple positions and experiences. One would assume it would lead to a freaking great resume when all is said and done.

Of course, this would mean that Rocco would face competition for his hotel projects. Which may be the reason for the idea to convert the Statler to a law school. Hell, maybe Rocco could take it all on? It would not shock me if he pulled it off.

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I still don't understand why they don't keep the lobby open and let Park Lane cover the utilities. At least it would make the building more appealing to perspective buyers.

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I understand that the shuttering of the Statler is a hot topic and very emotional issue right now. What I am wondering is why Rocco Termini is only now publicly throwing his hat in the ring to save the Statler. Did he make an offer on the building in the past? Was he active at the auction? I don't know.

What I find funny is that he is calling out UB as being resistant to change and not willing to get on board with his ideas at this late stage in the game. He is a developer with a plan that involves a local institution that he sees as the cash cow necessary for him to make his profits on his investment.

To Rocco, UB is nothing more than the golden goose that he needs to put his name on one of the largest properties in Buffalo. There is no doubt that he wouldn't do this without UB, because without UB he doesn't have a viable plan.

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If UB wanted this building for a law school, they would buy it and renovate it themselves. Why would they feel the need to rent the space, and pay someone else a premium?

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This is a tough call because the Law School would be a good fit but at the same time the Larger vision for UB South is to become a professional graduate school campus. Think Harvard style post graduate education, ivy league style campus. Not the mix of left over parts it has been for decades.

So while moving them downtown makes sense in the respect to be closer to courts and lawyers for which they intern, it would leave a hole for South Campus. A hole that the community around south would rightfully complain and fight because after the 5 health related schools move downtown the population of south campus would be reduced IF the law school were also downtown.

This isn't to say they shouldn't have anything there but the removal of the whole school from the services who maintain and support it from an already struggling community is a tough sell. It is really difficult to spend state dollars on not state owned properties. The idea of a whole school 'renting' space would potentially become a nightmare.

Remember South Campus is only a 12 minute one seat train ride from all of these places. They are going to be light years closer than where they are now.

If we want schools like architecture and law to be downtown... then we need a larger and serious discussion about UB in as a whole... which would inevitably lead to whether or not South Campus should be UB anymore... We know it would be South Campus's head on the chopping block because there isn't anyway that the movers and shakers in UB and Amherst would never give up north campus.

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This should absolutely happen and UB would be foolish not to jump at the chance.

Anything that encourages residents downtown is a plus. The proximity to the courts and law firms would create a living laboratory for students where they could immerse themselves in the legal network in Buffalo.

Graduate programs should be located downtown and allow the students to positively impact that area and create a "real" downtown, not one that is boarded up at 5pm.

This is a great solution to keeping this landmark building.

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I agree that UB shouldnt have more than 3 core campus. Law touches alot of the other disciplines on all 3 campus but I dont think they need to be physically present to learn it.

Its really hard because the Law School really doesnt fit in the Fruit Belt with the Medical Schools though if it moved its classrooms to the south end of that campus around the MWile Building and used the Statler as a housing for residential. This would solve the problem for class space and residential and being close to the courts.

It really is a severe disadvantage to law school students for them to be separated from the records, courts, government and legal firms downtown where they could get part time, coop, internships and/or full time jobs.

If I were termini, then I would still pursue UB Law School residential in the Statler even if the Law School stays on the South Campus. They are light rail connected and there are students that would rather commute to classes on the South Campus and have the career opportunities and experiences available living downtown. There is very little career benefit for law students living on the south campus.

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THE LAW SCHOOL DEBATE THAT TERMINI HAS FUELED RAISES A POINT FROM THE PAST REGARDING OUR DOWNTOWN LIBRARY.

THE DOWNTOWN LIBRARY IS NOW EXTREMELY UNDERSIZED AND OBSOLETE NOW THAT ECC DOWNTOWN CAMPUS IS GROWING IN BOTH POPULATION, RESIDENTIAL AND PROGRAMS, NOW THAT UB MEDICAL AND PHARMACEUTICAL IS IN THE FRUIT BELT GROWING IN BOTH POPULATION, RESIDENTIAL AND PROGRAMS....ETC.

DOWNTOWN'S PUBLIC LIBRARY DESPERATELY NEEDS TO FULFILL A LARGER ROLE:
-SUCH AS A PUBLIC LIBRARY
-AN UNDERGRADUATE LIBRARY FOR ECC DOWNTOWN CAMPUS
-A MEDICAL LIBRARY FOR UB
-SINGLE AND GROUP STUDY CUBICLES FOR STUDENTS
-CONFERENCE AND MOBLE OFFICESS (SOME RENTABLE) FOR OUR MOBILE DOWNTOWN
-WIFI ACCESS FOR LAPTOPS, CUBICLES FOR CELL PHONES
+++++PLUS BOOKSTORES THAT SERVE EACH

FOLLOWING SUCH A NEED...WE COULD EASILY SEE A 5 STORY OR MORE LIBRARY OR A 2-3 BUILDING COMPLEX

EVERYTHING TODAY FROM STUDENTS TO SENIOR EXECUTIVES TO SALES IS EXTREMELY MOBILE AND DOWNTOWN NEEDS A FACILITY THAT MAKES THE CONVENIENCES OF DOWNTOWN GREATER THAN THE SUBURBS. THIS IS ONE WAY TO BRING MOBILITY OF CONVENIENCE TO THE WALKABILITY OF CONVENIENCE.

THERE IS ALOT MORE LACKING TO THE CONVENIENCE OF DOWNTOWN THAN RETAIL AND RESIDENTIAL! THIS IS ONE WAY TO LURE THE LAW SCHOOL!!!

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Yes, UB needs to reconsider.

>We aren’t a University Without Walls.

True! With the migration North, the “walls” have been growing between UB, the downtown community and alumni. We don’t need that kind of wall.

>The Statler was looked at early on.

Uhhh. . .the law school used to *be* downtown! It was a hit. UB Law has a huge “regional representation”, i.e. lots of alumni working across the street from the Statler building. Advantages students and professors was priceless. How many judges and lawyers’ careers were shaped by the contacts they made downtown? Ask them.

>It doesn't meet our needs to be spread out further.

As “Steel” suggests, the Statler Building to Medical Campus is 1.1 miles and 4 minutes by car! Finish the covered walkway to the train stop and you will arrive faster than many N. Campus trips.

>A model of collaboration within schools.

Since medicine seems to be the only growing field nowdays, lets start progressive programs using this new Medical/Law School proximity: plaintiff/defense personal injury; joint JD/MD degree program; biomedical intellectual property center . . .etc. Get the interdisciplinary Baldy Legal Center fired up about medical issues---as Kuz613 says, it’s a hippie school. Let’s do some urban social change.

Rocco Termini you are smart cookie. Become a *genius* and actually implement this great idea.

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There is a great (900+) group formed on Facebook "WE SUPPORT STATLER BUILDING PRESERVATION" which people may want to join. It includes citizens with ideas, politicians and developers. I encourage you all to join there!!

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because all you need to do to preserve something now is start a facebook group! sheesh, we've been such dinosaurs for thinking it required money, leadership, vision, organizing, political pressure, negotiating skills, proof of economic viability, incentives, zoning & code reform, landmarking, and the occasional lawsuit.

i can't wait to hear about all of the great buildings saved by facebook now that civic participation requires nothing more than a mouse click.

replied to Travelrrr
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Really.... who needs a million square foot building without parking? Assisted living or a nursing home, that's about it.

Get BCAR to build a ramp across Mohawk Street that attaches to the building, and maybe you have other uses. In the meantime, not so much.

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As I said, the Law School doesnt need to move for law students to reside at the Statler. A nice compromise would be simply to allow a portion of the statler to be designated for UB student housing.

As was said, the statler is extremely convenient to all the downtown courts, lawfirms and records which many if not all students want to live near.

As was said, the statler is a short walk to light rail which makes it easier and faster to get to the south campus law school than people who actually reside on campus or commute from nearby.

Perhaps Termini should just ask for the students and not the whole school!!!!!!

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One last thought, consider if a significant portion of the Stater were dedicated to student housing...particularly those related to law.

I would think that would be a HUGE motivating factor for downtown law firms knowing they could have available 50 or more motivated college students to do inexpensive legal research and clerical work just a few floors away.

Again...perhaps asking for the entire school is to much to ask...perhaps asking for the students is all that is needed.

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Buff State needs to build dorms, and students are currently down the street at the Adam's Mark. Maybe this is a good fit for the Statler.

replied to JohnQBuffalo
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- UB's first priority is to serve the academic interests of its students and faculty. Any urban development, historic preservation, or South Campus hole-filling, should be secondary considerations. If putting the law school near the courts is ideal, and they plan to move it anyway, and the opportunity exists, then it should be pursued.

- Not only would the students benefit from proximity to the courts, but the legal community would also seem to benefit from interaction with the school. Maybe more would serve on the faculty. UB's distance from its urban center is a barrier to participation for many disciplines.

- Just when many other universities realize that technology frees them from the physical contraints of geography, UB whines that it's just too hard. Having multiple locations seems to be becoming the norm for universities.

My own undergrad SUNY college has maintained several disjointed campuses for decades, as it's important for the students & faculty to be near their subject matter. It's a feature of the institution that is nurtured and promoted.

- I understand that the Savannah College of Art & Design (SCAD) was instrumental in the revitalization of that city. It occupies older buildings, adapting them for college use. Friends suggest this as a model for Buffalo.

From the SCAD web site: "A desirable, large and unique urban campus—SCAD has grown to occupy approximately 2 million square feet in more than 60 facilities through the city, and is widely acknowledged as a leader in the field of adaptive reuse, preservation and revitalization."

And Savannah has become a prime tourist destination as a result. At least for the same type of architectural tourists Buffalo hopes to attract.

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ECONOMIC DERIVATIVE GROUP

WE HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THE DEVELOPMENTS OF THE STATLER FOR SOME TIME NOW....

WE HAVE CREATED A DATA BASE OF OVER 100 DEVELOPERS AROUND THE EAST COAST, WHICH ABOUT 60 OF THEM HAVE DEVELOPED SIMILAR SIZED HISTORIC BUILDINGS OF A PRICE TAG OF AT LEAST $50 MILLION.

WE HAVE STUDIED THE HISTORY BACKGROUND AND WHAT ENTICED THEM TO DEVELOP MANY OF THESE HISTORIC LANDMARKS.

WE ALSO STUDIED VARIOUS CREATIVE POSSIBLE REUSE OPTIONS THAT WOULD GIVE THE STATLER A HIGH SUCCESS RATE.

IF GRANTED THE RIGHT OPPORTUNITY WE WOULD BE INTERESTED IN PARTNERING WITH A BUFFALO LOCAL INTEREST GROUP TO MARKET THESE OPTIONS AS WELL AS ASSISTING IN LURING POTENTIAL TENANTS FOR THE BUILDING.

IF THERE IS INTEREST OUR BUFFALO CONTACT CAN BE REACHED AT (716) 570-0870 EXT 2

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um, with all due respect, there is nothing like shouting at people in ALL CAPS to make you look like scammers/spammers instead of professionals.

replied to ECON DERIVATIVE
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I agree with Termini. I went to a major university, NYU, which is a a strong physical presence on Washington Square and an integrated presence in neighbohoods all across Lower Manhattan south of 14th street. I never felt NYU failed to assert its committment to its physical place - that is, to New York City, its veritable campus.

UB is the Univeristy at Buffalo, not the University at the North Campus, or the South Campus, or the Medical Campus.

NYU is consistently ranked the number one "dream school" for graduating high school seniors in the United States. Does UB know something that NYU does not?

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NYU is the dream school because it is in NYC. Put the school itself outside of Manhattan...and it is forgotten by most HS Seniors.

As for UB knowing something that NYU doe not...not sure. But UB obviously knows something that you do not.

NYC >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buffalo

replied to chris_hawley
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The idea of a UB Law Dept plus the Library presence can be credited to more persons than Rocco, however, if he can make it happen-he will forever be the King of Downtown!

It makes perfect sense to populate downtown with students, especially on that location, why build new buildings for mega bucks instead of utilizing existing ones, already there?

Downtown Buffalo needs people after work hours....

Wonder how all the new efforts of Green Jobs can be made to fit in here? Can this building be adapted into green and have sustainable features?

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actually, that's a real good point: the after-hours people that having the law school downtown would bring. SOMEWHERE downtown though. i'm not sure the staler is the right fit. but it's just as silly not having the law school downtown as it is to have that main campus in the middle of nowhere amherst.

replied to pwallinder
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>The idea of a UB Law Dept plus the Library presence can be credited to more persons than Rocco, however, if he can make it happen-he will forever be the King of Downtown!

Hear hear! Anyone can have a great idea. Fruition is in the realm of Kings!

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Why is UB always nominated to be the savior of everything in this city.? Maybe UB should build a new Peace Bridge, buy the Buffalo Bills, and re-open American Axle while they are at it. They can build a state of the art law schoool on South Campus. Retrofitting the Statler would be a huge wast of resources. The Statler will be empty in 2015 and demolished by 2025...most likely in favor of parking ramp. UB will be much better served under the current 2020 master plan.

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UB has students, students needs to live somewhere. Why not live, work and study in one place? Downtown is where all the courts are. Every project has some factors 'driving' it, UB expansion and possible relocation's are such factors.
Possibility for low cost energy is another, Classroom space plus dorms plus library will add even more support space and vendors; retail and so much more. Buffalo downtown will come alive, is that so wrong? From the Statler its biking and walking distance to our waterfront.....

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The cost to demolish the Statler will be cost prohibitive beyond 2025. And there is an absurd amount of steel in that building, it's way overbuilt compared to modern standards, and the facade is structural with full brick stacked 2 deep. Plus the asbestos remediation. Talking dozens of millions of dollars, which stacked on top of the cost of any new development makes demolishing the Statler and building on the lot not feasible. Gotta find a use for it.

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can you elaborate? how does all those structural aspects make the cost to demolish greater? wouldn't the absurd amount of steel and all the brick et. al be valuable for recycling purposes? i'm not a builder, just trying to understand what you're saying better. thanks.

replied to BeauFleuve
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It can be demolished and asbestos remediation isn't so overwhelming. I like the Statler but if it's getting in the way of bigger and better, sayonara. It isn't an achitectural or historial gem on a par with the Guaranty Bldg. If someone finds a way to reuse it, I'm all the more thrilled but there needs to be some movement here.

replied to BeauFleuve
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I have to disagree citing numerous surface lots as eveidence.

replied to sonyactivision
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i concur

replied to Armchair MBA
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WoW, think positive people. A huge building like this should not never be considered for demo. Did you all know that in the 1970's Shea's was considered for demo? Yup, back when it was outdated, bankrupt, un-used and falling apart, many in charge considered knocking it down. Picture our Theater District or Downtown over all with out Shea's. And with so many people getting involved right now with ideas and most of all trying to secure this massive building, why not have hope that this will be preserved in the very near future? Downtown is not what it used to be (10-20 years ago). People actually care what our city looks like, trying to bring people back downtown, bring new life to dead areas, new retail, new restaurants, etc. This is'nt the old days when we said 'knock it down' once it went empty.

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Not too mention that City Hall was on the demo discussion board in the mid fifties.

replied to Lego1981
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I don't believe that anyone is seriously calling for demolition. The majority of comments either support the proposition that a developer should milk UB and SUNY for the money required to fix it up, or that UB should not be milked as the cash cow for this deal. I think most people in Buffalo would like to see something great happen with this building, and it is going to take a developer with true vision to make this happen. Unfortunately, Rocco and most of the other developers in Buffalo know little about doing a project of this size. There are only so many loft apartments and condos that the city can support, and I think our prime developers know that 100+ in the Statler is a gamble they will probably lose.

Who else do we look to move in here? How about one of the Federal Defense contractors working on Homeland Security bids? It would be great to bring them here instead of along the Washington Beltway. Maybe our esteemed Senators could petition Congress to throw some of this pork our way.

Maybe we could create a truly phenomenal recovery center for war veterans. Not a hospital, but a place where veterans and their families can readjust to life after way. I am sure the Veteran's Affairs department has a budget at least as deep as SUNY's. Again, maybe our esteemed Senators could work this angle as well.

I don't think either of these options are too far fetched when compared to the UB Law School option. There have to be at least a dozen more ideas that tap into the deep pockets of the Federal Government. Maybe we should amend Byron's letter to Obama to ask for help with the Statler and through in the Central Terminal while we are at it.

replied to Lego1981
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