Planning Board Hears Canal Side Details

Considering that this a phased, market-based build out, I would like to know what other major retailers have expressed serious interest in locating here. What demographic statistics are being used by the ECHDC to justify the total square footage?

"A supplemental study to address Marine Drive Apartment residents' concerns over traffic, noise, air quality and visual impacts from a proposed new parking ramp is in draft form"

The only legitimate concern listed there should be air quality, but addressing their concerns over visual impact is ridiculous. So are we going to let a bunch of transient residents have a say in what the project looks like? That's a scary idea to me. Noise? Is the sound of the waves from Lake Erie too loud? Traffic? Once again it's the city core, what did you expect?

I know I have beaten this horse before (I still can't wrap my head around this), but if I lived in that prime waterfront property and the city offered to build a parking ramp right next door that I could use for free I would be ecstatic. That's an ammenity that only the high end condos around here have. Do they not realize this?

Let's compare Marine Drive apartment to the Pasquale:
Waterfront view, check
City Skyline view, check
Covered Parking, check
Prime location downtown, check
Price, wait Pasquale is slightly more

I really hope this is not too gimicky and the retailers are stores that the average resident or downtown worker can use regulary. I would love to see a Gap, Urban Outfitters, H&M, Apple Store, Banana Republic, your basic mall stores. I think it would bring more suburbanites downtown for shopping, Canadians will stay in the city for shopping and city residents can stay in the city for their shopping needs. I think this is a high enough profile project to bring those types of retailers to the city. And of course, mix in local retail as well. They should offer incentives or low rent for local businesses.

brownteeth--
I completely agree. I think the key to successful retail is to get some stores that AREN'T already in the suburbs like H&M, Trader Joe's, Crispers (it's a salad joint out of Florida), Home Goods, etc. If this is only location of these stores, that gives many people an incentive right there to visit Canalside.

With the scar of the skyway running through it; it looks like a design joke.

I think that for a restaurant in that area that a "Jimmy Buffett's Margaritaville" Would be awesome!

As Meliq and brownteeth posted, I agree that stores you typically find in the mall around here and other heavily suburbanized areas should locate themselves in the Canal Side development. Another urban friendly establishment I would like to see is Whole Foods. In Baltimore they took a gamble in a section of the city between the downtown core/waterfront and Fells Point, close to the southern end of Little Italy. This area consisted of mainly abandoned shipping facilities and factory space. They moved into a building that was half reuse, half new build. Within a few years that whole section of the city blossomed with street level shops, hotels, and new housing. With the influx of people the thought of walking from downtown to the Allentown like Fells Point was not one that included the word suicide.

I don't know how we've gotten this far with this concept. Why would we try so hard (and spend tens of millions of dollars in subsidies) to try to make a big-box store work downtown? We're not the suburbs, and we should stop trying to be. The competitive advantage that urban areas have stems from a diversity of development -- the meshing of different architectures, uses, people, and awkward juxtapositions of space make for an urban dynamism that the suburbs can't compete with.

While I give the designers credit for ensuring that this is mixed use and there is sufficient public space, there are a few flaws in the project:

1) the architecture is a ridiculous caricature of itself (the EPCOT approach);

2) we need to step back from a "silver bullet" strategy to redevelopment (which I thought we learned decades ago), instead we should focus on making neighborhoods livable and repopulating unpopulated sections of the city... and allowing retail and entertainment to emerge organically;

3) a retail attraction that is built with subsidies can not sustain itself in the market and will therefore require on going subsidies or will go out of business... I don't want to jinks anything, but maybe we should start thinking up a "Bass Pro Adaptive Reuse" plan;

Providence, RI was able to bring a Nordstrom's to its downtown 3 years ago. It's the only Nordstrom's in the area. Nordstrom's in Canal Side?

Where was the public notice about this meeting? Anyone who thinks the Planning Board will have any input on Erie Canal Harbor designs has not read the EIS documents.

The documents (available on-line) take the power of design away from the City The DGEIS (ES.7.3) states "ESDC intends to exercise its statutory authority to override local land use regulations..." They go on to describe their own design review process.

If the intention was to have the existing City Planning Board have authority there would be no need to have another design review board.

Looks like it will be better than Quincy Market, really a stroke of genius. Now when people talk about Buffalo they won't mention the snow, the poverty, the declining population, they'll just say...Canalside. Does anyone know if we are able to rename the city? Perhaps Canaltown?

I had heard that both Whole Foods and Trader Joe's wouldn't consider coming here due to strong competition by Wegmans. And while I certainly realize the importance of bringing in recognizable chains, I also think that the developers (city, etc.) should consider offering incentives for local, successful business owners to set up second locations at Canalside. By setting up a program like that, more money would remain in our immediate economy and not be sent to some corporate headquarters outside of town.

I don't really consider this a "silver bullet" project. It's a lot more comprehensive and interconnected to the existing fabric of the city then most of the past proposals. Bringing retail back downtown can go a long way. If I new I could find stores similar to those in the Galleria Mall in addition to those unique to the location I would obviously choose Canalside. This is also taking into account that I can ride the metro down there and not have to worry about the parking nightmare that is the Galleria. Imagine the LaSalle park & ride lot actually full! Next step: bring a signature Wegmans store into a totally gutted and rehabbed Main Place.

I thought this project was Go! How many more studies and planning do we really have to suffer through after YEARS of planning and studies???? This is why we (residents) GIVE UP HOPE.

If we are talking about incentives to locate at Canal Side, then why not offer those incentives to local companies? Why not offer an incentive for United Men's Fashions to build a satellite of their store on Bailey? Complement that store with Get Dressed and Crazy Love, maybe bring in a popular tattoo parlor and a salon / spa. Coerce Pizza Plant or Jacobi's to open a restaurant at the waterfront with some nice cash incentives and a subsidized build-out with a guarantee that they will make a go of it for a few years.

We should focus on local first, let the money stay in WNY and build some of our more popular brands. People will hopefully make a destination of it for lunch or the day, and definitely on the weekends.

Most of the retail and restaurant chains that we are so anxious to bring here started as local restaurants somewhere else. We have some very strong products in Buffalo, let's create some incentives to build them up with the hope that they become the next national chain.

Much of retail is probably going to be similar to what's at Village West (http://www.legendsshopping.com/), a large destination lifestyle center in blue-collar, lower-middle-class Kansas City, Kansas. Think middle-end chains that usually only have one or two flagship locations in a medium-sized metro area (Dinosaur BBQ, Yard House, Joseph-Beth Bookstore, American Apparel, Z Gallerie, etc), a few traditional mall/lifestyle center stores (Hollister, Justice, etc), some outlets associated with mall chains (Gap Outlet, etc), a few local/regional chains or single-outlet businesses with no city presence (Pizza Plant, Tully's, Tony Walker), and possibly branches of "landmark" local restaurants (Duff's, Italian Village, etc). I'm guessing they'll go _very_ light on sneaker stores. It might be interesting to have a pool on what tenants will be in the center when it opens.

Trader Joe's is supposedly considering a location on Transit Road. Their philosophy of targeting a demographic group that is "overeducated and underpaid" has been long ignored in new store siting; consider their Cleveland-area stores are in lifestyle centers in wealthy suburbs, not Cleveland Heights or Lakewood with the hipsters. Whole Foods looks for areas where there is a very large number and concentration of upper middle class and wealthier households, and not even a location in East Amherst meets their standards. Same thing with Fresh Market, Sprouts, and the other grocers catering to the Stuff White People Like crowd.

Have any of you ever been to Southside Seaport in NYC?

I'm pretty sure it has an elevated highway that runs right through the middle of it and this area is always thriving.

You can even see little street vendors underneath the highway with their stands selling the worthless junk we all get sucked in to buy.

Let's face it, very few of us actually like the skyway and it clearly interferes with Canalside's/Inner Harbor's potential, but it really isn't THAT big of a deal. Things will work out and we will all be happy in Summer of 2011 (fingers crossed!)

Matthew has probably the sanest remarks here. Canal Side is already a dated and silly concept. Wrong developer, wrong planning firm, foolish hopes of having a retail anchor completely uninterested in actually going through with this, planning based on faulty economic assumptions... the list goes on.

I had heard that Whole Foods was going to the project on Maple at the Buffalo Shooting Club site. Unless this is now dead, that is where you'll see Whole Foods. Contrary to what people are saying here , the demographics do exist to support it. The question is do they exist to support the 2-3 stores needed for them to justify the distribution network they'd need to make the market viable? My guess is yes and we'll see them in Orchard Park and Amherst. We'll not see them anywhere in the city.

To think that a grocery store would locate at Canalside is ridiculous. I don't know why people keep bringing it up. Do you think people in Buffalo are going to drive to a grocery store in a entertainment and retail complex where they will have to park in a parking ramp and haul their groceries to their car? Do you think tourists are looking to visit a Whole Foods while on vacation?

Why would we waste valuable waterfront land in a destination complex on a grocery store? Drop it because it isn't happening.

There are firms and companies waiting to submit specific "designs" for parcels and general areas. However, they have been waiting on the design guidelines before moving forward. This is the best way to approach the entire project. Aesthetically, engineering, structurally, etc.... we need to insure that all players are performing off the same sheet of music. Without that, we get a hodge-podge of buildings, facades, plants, colors, textures, materials, etc... No, it will not be a "stamped" rule book with everyone having the same building appearance, rather, it will dictate the style, sustainability aspects, lighting, everything. Better to take a few extra months to get this straight that to start off wrong. This has been a HUGE component that the ECHDC has stood by since the beginning: Consistancy, proper design that respects the location, theme and surrounding landscapes; and choosing from the best options - which takes time. There is progress and this progress can be witnessed at any of the public meetings rather than someone speculating and assuming that a promised development is dead in the water. Patience will pay off. It is coming, and it will be worht the wait. Sure; of course, there are going to be the pessimists that will dislike and find fault in whatever is done just for a reason to complain. But, in the end, this will be what it has, and is, tauted to be. IT TAKES TIME and PATIENCE- even after completion it takes time and patience. It is better to help and contribute rather than to negatively criticize and complain. Any critiques should be accompanied by reasonable solutions. This is what ALL THE PUBLIC sessions have been for.

I know this going to be a stretch, but they should get an IKEA in downtown. The closest one is in Pittsburgh or Canada (which means duties). But mostly, I just really like IKEA.

Wouldn't a Crate and Barrel or a Crate and Barrel outlet work too? There is not one in WNY or upstate new york for that matter. I do not believe that they have a presence in southern Ontario either. I think that traffic from Ontario alone could support this store. C&B is smaller than IKEA and more upscale.

Plan;
Looks ridiculous, sorry kids.
Canalside development?;
Thumbs up. However more land ought to slated for residents.
Where are we?;
Where we always are.....talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk etc.
Spend lots of money we don't have to talk about projects that never get done.

@ buffox, sorry if I came across as too harsh but it seems to me that people are always saying put a ___________ at _________ location without thinking about the fact that the store actually decides if and where they will locate in any city.

I believe Whole Foods is coming. Friends that work there and everything I've read tell me that they must push their market to continue to grow and it is growth upon which their stock price is built. A grocery store needs about 10,000 people in its dedicated demographic to be profitable. While Amherst and Clarence are no Bloomfield Hills or Chagrin/Shaker/Pepper Pike they can certainly deliver 10,000 higher income and quality focused shoppers. Downtown just isn't there yet.

Crate and Barrel and the others all have robust internet and catalog sales so those that want to shop there will find them online. They don't need bricks and mortar for that. If, Canalside proves a success and has the traffic then I don't see any reason why thaey might not locate there but it certainly isn't a "must be there" location. CB is in Milwaukee, KC, St. Louis, Richmond and Raleigh. Those cities probably weren't shoo-ins either. But since the Pyramid folks (very aggressive) haven't been able to get them to the Galleria I just wouldn't hold my breath.

As for Ikea Dan hit it on that one. Forget it. If they ever did choose to locate in WNY it certainly wouldn't be in the city. The only place I can think of that they've done that is in Brooklyn and even there they are going into an old industrial brownfield. You'd see them in Hamburg or Lancaster or something.

Shazam, 58 comments & nobody said "they should put an Ikea down there."

So much for having something done for the 2011 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships.
While we're young! Can we get this thing going. I'd like to ice skate on the canals someday before I'm 95.

This development gives some credence to the idea that Buffalo is a CITY. Cities are most intensely activated by pedestrians, and therefore must cater to them, with sidewalks, and human scaled details that make walking attractive. These are the qualities that are MUSTS when discussing a city. Some of Canalside hits the mark, but some of it misses.

A development centering around a subsidized big box store squanders its newfound tax base on supporting an expensive retailer. Big box stores and chain stores aren't the highest and best use of land, either. Chain stores have mass appeal, but must be replaced by even better local businesses in order to have a sustainable local economy.

The last Canalside article talked about offering $4 million to *another* large retailer. I am SURE there is at least one person in Buffalo with the wherewithal to create a really amazing, extremely "Buffalo," clothing store or grocery, or pottery store, or something even better if they were given $4 million to start with and 5 years of tax credits, which Bass Pro doesn't need, or seem to really want.

I don't want to get into a racial argument. I believe the healthiest neighborhoods have a mixture of incomes. Whatever that implies, it implies. But this development cannot be all one anything if it is to be a "city."

An ok attempt, all in all. But still NOT GOOD ENOUGH for the residents of Buffalo.

P.S. The Republic Steel site would be perfect for an IKEA, once remediated. Even a sea of parking is a higher and better use than industrial brownfield.

The outlet mall in the town of Niagara seems to be doing just fine selling to upper middle class canadians. The Buffalo Airport is succeeding on the backs of Canadians.

Why would the waterfront be different?

Does any one think any thing is really going to happen…is the sixth or the fifty-sixth “grand plan” for the water front …Bass pro is not going to happen the founder for bass pro is a friend of the family and he has no time the BS and the protest that you know some loser will have a problem. The city is all ready to scrap the plan because some rent control welfare recipients that are lucky enough to live on the water front are upset that exhaust from auto will interfere with there crack smoking. when will this city get some real leadership. move forward with a plan stop letting moron that dont have anything better to do but think of how they can stop any development they dont like. nothing would have ever been built in this country if they stop to make sure every loser with a stick and a marker is happy. It will never happen..Bring on the next grand plan

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One thing retail watchers here should consider is that many toney shopping centers began with a humdrum mix of local and national retailers. As receipts grew and the customer base expanded, the less upscale shops were replaced by many finer stores. I've seen this in many areas. It's a process of evolution. Canalside will need enough interesting stores to bring in the traffic and then better retailers will come in. Bass Pro is a big driver but any number of other stores can score a direct hit with the customers and start the ball rolling.