Real Estate January 19, 2010 5:45 AM

Demo Planned at Main and North Streets

Demo Planned at Main and North Streets
Ellicott Development Co. is seeking to demolish a one-story former gas station at the southwest corner of Main and North streets.  Ellicott's 4268 Group Inc. has owned the 1,352 sq.ft. building at 1030 Main since 2004.  After a brief run as a Quizno's restaurant, the building most recently housed Medina Deli.  If approved for demolition, an existing parking lot on the site will be expanded by 10-12 additional spaces.  The development firm has begun renovations to  an adjacent four-story building at 1028 Main Street that once housed Bryant and Stratton's city campus.  The end use for that building is not known.

The demolition proposal was tabled at the January 12 Planning Board meeting.  Since the property is within the Allentown Historic Preservation District, the Buffalo Preservation Board needs to weigh in on the matter.

Ellicott Development recently completed renovations to a three-story, turn-of-the-20th-century building at 1010 Main Street.  Kaleida Health opened an out-patient care facility in the 36,000 sq.ft. building.  An adjacent one-story structure at 1008 Main Street was removed to create a 39 car parking lot for that renovation project.    
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One rehab, one parking lot. One rehab, one parking lot Is it possible for anyone in Buffalo to build a multi-story parking lot for several buildings with ground floor retail instead of 1 parking lot per building? Density would be a real good thing for Midtown. There are more than enough surface paking lots in that area.

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I agree. We need better planning for buildings and the associated parking lots. Higher density would be a real good thing!

replied to jstraubinger
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Should not be approved unless they present a plan for a higher and better use for that site.

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As always...are you going to pay for the extra stories to be built?

replied to townline
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"Higher and better" does not mean "taller." It just means a structure that makes better use of the land.

And yes, I am paying for it - the only reason the developer is looking to demo this building (as has been done on countless other properties) is to lessen his own tax burden by eliminating improvements on the site. So, demoing this property increases the tax burden on every other city resident and property owner.

So to the completely stupid "its not your money" comments, yes it is my money, its everyone's money that this is impacting.

Developers should not reap benefits from demoing structures, especially perfectly viable structures, with no vision for a more productive future of the site.

replied to galaxyjay
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That's a big stretch. First you claim the developer's motivation is solely to lessen his tax burden. What evidence do you have of this? Even IF this was the case (I highly doubt it is his major motivation, and frankly it likely would be offset by the concomitant bump in value to his adjacent building), so what? Are you claiming that every property owner has the obligation to pay the most in property taxes he or she could in order to lessen the burden on others? Really? You believe that? If we are here to serve others, then what are others here for?

I'm in commercial real estate. Accessible parking is a HUGE deal. Always. Eliminating this building brings the possibility of repositioning the entrance (or adding an entrance) to the adjacent building from the parking lot. Customers LOVE parking next to where they are going. This lot adds real value to his building next door. Carl was willing to make this place its own revenue center, as witnessed by the money he put into it and the length of time he left it on the market. But guess what? It sits vacant and has continually for eons. No one wants it for what (in the owner's estimation) it would be worth in parking. And it's an ugly gas station, badly located on its site, remuddled to look like a generic suburban box. This is no Shea's. What do we lose with this vacant unispired dud removed?

People on this site often toss around the solution of building a parking ramp to conserve space. But parking ramps are very expensive to build and maintain and the truth is that drivers don't like them very much. They hate the constricted aisle and parking spaces as well as the traffic jam when leaving. Ask retail customers to park in a ramp or a lot adjacent to the door and guess which one they'll choose. For businesses in the city, that makes a difference. They have to compete with suburban consumer options if we are to grow our retail sector by attracting new customers.

replied to townline
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You are correct but the only thing that mentality leads to is a transit road, NFB environment. Not a city.

We have followed exactly what you are saying for 50 years and demolished 50% of our downtown so that every building practically has its own parking lot right next door. But there is still not enough parking and even less reason for people to go to downtown.

It is a failed concept with regards to urban planning. Sure NFB is great for commerce and unfortunately that is what many people want but if we want to preserve and protect our city as a unique, historic, inviting and beautiful place, something no parking friendly, commerce friendly place is, then we need to think about parking in a neighborhood level, not on an individual level.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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"but if we want to preserve and protect our city as a unique, historic, inviting and beautiful "

Fair enough on a case-by-case basis when feasible, but this is an empty former gas station. What does it have to do with uniqueness, history, inviting, and beautiful?

replied to Sean Brodfuehrer
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It's about setting a precedent of process, not about this individual building.

replied to whatever
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Good common sense from Bini:

"Accessible parking is a HUGE deal. Always. ... Customers LOVE parking next to where they are going. ...parking ramps are very expensive to build and maintain and the truth is that drivers don't like them very much."

All that should be so obvious that it doesn't have to be pointed out, but no doubt a few will refuse to believe it or maybe pretend to not believe it.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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He is right. Property on Transit Road and Niagara Falls Blvd is extremely valuable because of these conditions.

BUT - I want to live in a city. A dense, vibrant CITY.

I think what Bini says makes sense - in the short term. Thats how you get the most value right now out of your building. But not long term. The long term economic and residential viability of Buffalo depends upon our ability to preserve and rebuilt our urban environment. Keep chopping up the urban fabric and you'll have a "suburban" atmosphere that doesn't function as well as Transit, yet is too void of vibrancy and urban context for those who seek to work and live in the City. Pretty soon, you'll have a bombed out neighborhood that nobody wants. That is what has happened to so many of our neighborhoods - including all along Main Street.

Bini - your economics are probably right for building value, but they're not right for the development of this city.

This building is probably not worth much to the urban fabric, but the precedent set for the process to preserve and enhance the urban fabric is invaluable.

replied to whatever
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The false choice in the premise is for the city, at least in areas where the construction is dense and built to the property lines, to compete with the built environment of the suburbs. I agree that the old gas station should come down, but trying to turn the development pattern in the city to match that of the burbs is a losing proposition. As a commerical broker, I understand that you business is based on a property-by-property reality. The problem is that by seeing the city as fiefdoms of property with no plan, you become a city where only your property matters, if this building has parking then great, but there's no growth of creating districts. Again, this isn't your problem, it's the city's and their lack of effective zoning and planning, but having a parking lot next to each building, especially on corner lots, is not a sustainable pattern of growth for the city.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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Read "The High Cost of Free Parking"

replied to galaxyjay
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I would normally agree... but this building seems more like a hindrance than an opportunity at this point. It is too far removed from the street to be noticed and therefore frequented by customers. You can't see it from 270 degrees which because of it's setup, so even while it has plenty of parking... the lack of street presence means it will probably just sit empty.

Take it down, it doesn't add to the neighborhood and hope that someone will then see the larger site as an opportunity for a bigger development.

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I don't think that having this little building standing for now is clouding anyone's vision for a larger development. Nothing positive comes out of its demolition. It certainly could be better sited and provide more density, but there is no reason to tear this structure down so that the developer can lessen his own taxes.

replied to Sean Brodfuehrer
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TL>"Nothing positive comes out of its demolition."

What positive would come out of forcing the owner to leave it standing? Spite doesn't count as a positive.

replied to townline
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process.

replied to whatever
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Demolish! The existing building detracts from its neighbors. A parking lot would actually look better here than a former gas station, I say. Eyes will be drawn to 1010 Main and the spectacular church building on North.

I would like to see all parking lots in the city greened up at the edges.

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What happend to SUBWAY moving into this space as promised on this site a few years ago?

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The person/company that was going to have about six Quizno's locations purchased most of the equipment for the sites, then never followed through. I'd say that happened three years ago (or so). The equipment for the locations was auctioned over about six months, the sites being in various stages of getting open. This one was the furthest from being occupied. The more familiar you are with the area, the less apt you'd be to keep it.

replied to Lego1981
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Could make for a great new location for a Starbucks! It is set back like the one on Delaware Ave.

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The point is that Carl owns both buildings and will own both parking lots on 4 adjacent pieces of property. If Carl built a multiple story parking garage on one of the parking lots, he could use the other parking lot for the development of another building. So much of Buffalo looks like gap teeth with its random and lack-of-planning parking lots. I know that WNY is car struck but I do think it's possible for people to walk a sixth of a block from a parking garage to their destination.

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probably impossible to write this into statute, but as a rule, we should not permit demos of commercial buildings & factories unless we are guaranteed something "higher and better" in their place. a parking lot is not something better.

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No way would I sign up for that rule. Who decides what 'higher and better' means? And yes, I say the a parking lot on this corner, dedicated to the owner's adjacent building absolutely constitutes 'higher and better' use. As compared to a vacant generic single story box? You betcha!

replied to grad94
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This is exactly why I want to see the same building codes recently enforced in the Elmwood Village used for the rest of this city. Then we would'nt have to see more buildings torn down for parking and have the developer tell us it's "progress". Instead, Carl would have to either tear this down and replace it with a newer building, built to the curb with a parking lot or mini ramp or underground parking. OR build a ramp on this lot with first floor commercial space. That's what I would call 'Progress'.

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That's what I call taxing yourself out of existence. It would be foolhardy to impose those kinds of restrictions on a broad area which cannot sustain it financially. The cost of development with those restrictions would preclude renovation and rehab of most area. Terrible idea.

replied to Giovanni
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But is it necessary to have parking lot-building-parking lot-building? Since Carl owns these 4 adjacent pieces of property, wouldn't a lot or ramp that serves 3 buildings instead of one lot per building be better than the current configuration?

replied to biniszkiewicz
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No, a ramp would not be better. First, it would be way more expensive, driving up rents significantly and thereby diminishing the buildings' economic viability. Second, ramp parking is not favored by customers. He is better off, from the standpoint of attracting tenants for the redevelopment of this site, providing as close to adequate surface parking as he is able (though in any event the surface parking will be relatively inadequate; given the amount of space in the buildings he will not be able to provide parking in the quantity that codes recommend. It will still be augmented by mass transit and people parking nearby.)

replied to jstraubinger
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bini, parking drives up rents only when it is free, which everyone seems to think is in the bill of rights somewhere next to freedom of religion. i'm sure the good rev. drew would confirm that there is no god-given right to free parking.

if people want to park that close to their destinations, let them pay market rents for the use of prime real estate, like we do for every other land use. if housing, health care, arts & culture, and even education (according to some people) should not be socialized, why should parking?

replied to biniszkiewicz
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???? Socialized parking ?????? What the hell are you talking about??? This isn't socialized parking! The developer IS paying market rates for the land! It's NOT the case that he is asking ANYONE else to subsidize his building's parking. So what the hell are you talking about????

For the record, I strongly favor socialized medicine. But that's not related to this topic. A developer's right to provide amenities at his own expense which he or she determines will make his or her property favorably received in the marketplace should NOT be infringed upon by disinterested third parties who have no financial stake in the game. Don't like someone's development? Compete! Put together a capital group and provide a product that enshrines your developmental vision and kick that other developer's ass. But otherwise, what right do you have to tell anyone else how to develop his or her property????

replied to grad94
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Thankfully we have laws and regulations which look beyond self-interest. When you say "disinterested" third parties, are you limiting interest to only financial? It's not always about creating a better project, but creating a framework through policy for creating cohesive development which doesn't gut the entire neighborhood for the profit of one individual. The goverment is allowed to create land-use law for the betterment of the people and thus can limit the rights of property owners, there is no inherent right by law for you to do anything that you want, nor is there the right to receive compensation for your property beyond a resonable return.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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The city Planning Board and other regulatory agencies give the public the right to tell people how they can or cannot develop their property. Why should only those who can afford to develop real estate determine the nature of the built environment that the general public lives in?

replied to biniszkiewicz
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> Instead, Carl would have to either tear this down and replace it with a
> newer building, built to the curb with a parking lot or mini ramp or underground parking.

I don't mean to be a pedant, but I don't know why folks here say "build it to the curb". Do you want to see pedestrians walking in the street? (Can I also rant on "Galleria Mall", "Rite Aid's", "Maple's Road" and the like?)

We planner types tend to say "built to the sidewalk" or "built to the edge of the sidewalk".

replied to Giovanni
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What's sad is that this is located right across the street from the Anchor Bar. A place where many out of towners go to get the REAL Buffalo Wings. And when they see this neighborhod ripped apart and no action, it just sends a bad message and image to our city. With so much potential in this end of Main St. it's sad that we are still hearing of more demo's for parking lots.

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What was on that corner before the gas station?

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probably don't want to know...

replied to 300miles
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Judging from the windows along the wall of the 1028 Main, it was probably at most a single story house or business. Usually, party walls are blank if the neighbor was taller or likely to be taller. When I see those windows, I know that nothing like that happened.

replied to 300miles
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I love how some of you just toss out underground parking and parking structures as alternatives without even caring (or is it knowing) how expensive both of those options can be. Let's face it, land in Buffalo isn't that valuable to warrant structured parking everywhere. When you go from surface parking to structured parking you're easily taking about costs going from 10s of thousands to 100s of thousands and more than likely over a million.

I have no problem with this demo, the building clearly does not fit the neighborhood scale and I'd rather see a vacant parking lot than a rundown generic single story building that becomes a complete eyesore in a few years when no use is found for it. I say demo it since I think that area of the city will see values increase within the next 5 years (based on the expansion of the medical campus) and then there can be a possibility of a new building to anchor that corner.

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Right, land in Buffalo isn't valuable enough to construct structured parking - it's too easy to just knock down a building for surface parking...

replied to OutsidetheBox
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Can you imagine if anything (wilson farms, starbucks, IKEA) moved into this little kiosk and was successful? The very first posting about it on BRO would be a screed about how it caters to the automobile/isn't built to the curb/should be knocked down and rebuilt as an environmental sounds, mixed use, architectural masterpiece.

Demoing this building makes the building adjacent that much more valuable for immediate reuse, while clearing the land for eventual reuse as the second coming of the larkin administration building.

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I would think the City and its elected officials would want to hear from Chicago before doing anything.

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{deleted- repetitive and off-topic}

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I'd rather park where a crappy building was than walk past it from my car a block away. No feelings whatsoever about this one.

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In many way this, this addition attempted to be built to the curb but failed short. It is almost build to the curb but not quite. In many ways people, decades from now, will reflect on this property as an attempt to build to the curb, therefore, the structure has historic merits and should not be even mention as a demolition project w/o the proper lawsuit being filed.

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The sarcastic comments are getting kinda old, guys.

Make your point and move on.

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Is there a Parking Lot Restoration Committee that could have a meeting and talk about restoring the parking lot? and vote if having the parking lot built to the curb or not has historical merit? perhaps putting a building in between the curb and the parking lot would lend itself to no particular design. the planting of shrubs along the double yellow line in the middle of the street might harken back to the days of Yesterdays Future Buildings of Today, complete with bike rack on the roof and brass dirigible mooring post by the front door. or something...

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I can't shed any tears for this one, too many wonderful old buildings are quietly disappearing from the less visible corners of the city. In the past 30 years I have observed the demolition of countless old structures that once gave definition and a sense of place to our old neighborhoods. We are destroying the one advantage we have and are too impatient to recognize the future potential of this finite asset.

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brick building on the corner of chandler and grote has the red mark of death on it - universal machine co.

replied to Blackrocklifer
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Thats exactly what I am talking about, these buildings just disappear without any debate or recognition.

replied to Roy
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The question here to me is: What do we want our Main St. to look like?

The former Medina Deli/Gas Station is clearly not appropriate for this portion of Main St. Neither is a corner parking lot.

This portion of Main St. is in Allentown. One of the densest residential neighborhoods in the city. I believe that the City plans to extend Allen St. east of Main. If the intent is to expand the relative success of Allen St. onto Main and across it, then development in this area should support that. And, I believe that includes a street full of, built to the sidewalk multi story buildings.

In order to achieve this, the Gas Station needs to come down, and a new larger (at least 2 story building) needs to be built in its place. How can this be achieved? I do not have that answer.

Clearly a ramp is a possibility. Bini states that a ramp is not preferable to customers. I concede that this is true, but what about employees / business people? If these buildings are mostly being renovated for office space, with possible eventual small shops on the first floor, and maybe some residential eventually, is it not reasonable for office workers and renters to park in a ramp? I know I prefer ramp/garage parking at work and at home, especially in winter, because I don't have to clean the snow off my car.

Can the city incentivize ramp construction by eliminating the increase in property tax for a period of years? We all believe that we need more ramps instead of surface parking, what can we do to incentivize the construction of more ramps?

Sorry for the rambling nature of my post.

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i harbor no secret affection for current or former gas stations, but i will say that pizzarias love them because of the easy access for their delivery drivers. i'd rather see a thriving pizza shop here than a dead parking lot.

oh, and it is insane to incentivize ramp garages. we have plenty of socialized parking. let's incentivize walking, cycling, and mass transit instead. it is cheaper to give someone 10 single-speed bikes and 10 metro rail passes and 10 bike racks than it is to give them one free parking space in a ramp garage.

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How do we incentivize that? I agree with the thought process. I think more residential downtown will lead to more human powered transportation, because more people will theoretically be living closer to work. . . .but beyond that.

replied to grad94
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first we need a parking cash-out law. see:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/planning/tsaq/cashout/cashout.htm

in the meantime, employers can provide free nfta passes. employers can provide free indoor bicycle parking in a basement or other storage space. if they don't have indoor storage space, employers can offer outdoor bike lockers. employers can offer indoor gym lockers for bicycle clothing and gear. all of this is cheaper than providing "free" parking.

oh, and employers can start charging market rates for downtown parking. free parking is like open bar at your cousin's wedding. economists know that people always "need" lots more of a resource that someone else pays for than a resource that they have to pay for.


replied to Jordan
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I agree... but NFTA passes aren't free for employers and most employers do not offer free parking to employees.

When it comes to working downtown, you can pay $64.00 per month for an unlimited metro pass, or $45.00 for unlimited parking in the ramps. Driving brings you right to the door of your building, the metro brings you a few blocks away. The metro takes longer to get to work than driving, and you have less flexibility if you need to leave work early for any reason.

We have a horrible transit system in Buffalo. We have limited park and ride options, limited bus services to where people actually live, and a limited metro rail. All of these have been discussed at length before; however the NFTA doesn't seem to want to do anything about it.

replied to grad94
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It isn't that bad. You can get your metro pass pre-taxed which cuts the costs by up to a 1/3. Also those couple blocks are exercise woven into your day to day life. Might not be a lot but a couple block, five times a week for 20 years adds up to a little better health. Something seriously lacking in America today.

Also there are personal connections that can \ could be made, which in other cities are the driving forces for new ideas and companies. Places like NY, Chicago work and continue to thrive because people, mix and mingle. Sitting in a car by yourself driving to your workplace's door, actually hurts the intellectual capital of our city.

I ride the bus \ train to work every day and have made several connections that have panned out into not just extremely fun conversations but new ideas to help my job and employer. Things I didn't know how to do I found out the guy next to me did. We talked, new ideas.

It isn't just about time, and laziness, there is a whole different level of connections and health we are missing by driving in little bubbles everywhere.

replied to jimmy
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All good points... I agree with you completely.

One thing to keep in mind is that parking is also eligible for pre-tax spending plans, which cuts that by almost a third as well.

replied to Sean Brodfuehrer
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of course nfta passes aren't free and no one said they were. but they're several magnitudes cheaper than providing "free" parking.

it is a planning truism people attract people. the more people are out on buffalo's streets the more people will come out to buffalo's streets. lots of people go to thursday at the square or the galleria mall not because they like the band or need another pair of shoes, but because we all enjoy hanging out where there is good people watching.

one of the best ways to reanimate our streets is to make walking, biking, and mass transit easy, safe, and even entertaining. we've had 50 years of more and more cheap parking and it hasn't made downtown even a fraction as attractive as elmwood, allentown, and hertel.

time to admit that you can have ample cheap or free parking or you can have an appealing, popular downtown but you cannot have both.

replied to jimmy
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I think you are touching on a much larger issue, that of the Anonymity of America. People drive to their houses, park in their garages, then leave through the garage, pick-up coffee at a drive-thru, head to the parking lot at work, walk in by themselves, hang in their generic cube, then head home to interact with people via the internet. Human interaction in America is down significantly. An article that I read a few months ago said that the number of close friends that most Americans have is down significantly as well.

I'd love to see that change, but it is going to take more than mass transit and fewer parking spots to change the culture. Given our current culture, having fewer parking spaces near your business is a liability. People are busier (but less productive) than ever, so those few extra steps could be the difference between making a sale or having the customer go somewhere else. With online shopping, it is getting more difficult to differentiate your business based on product or service, so every amenity and bonus for the customer helps.

replied to grad94
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your right about social atomization.

but our experience of commerce in buffalo contradicts your theory about parking as an amenity. elmwood, hertel, and allentown are our most successful, appealing retail districts and they have very limited supplies of parking, certainly by mall and downtown standards.

you overlook the fact that an intact, rewarding pedestrian realm is itself a valuable amenity, one that only cities can offer. malls cannot compete.

the question is: what is downtown for? is it for copious cheap vehicle storage or is it for living, working, playing, etc.?

replied to jimmy
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I'm all in favor of making mass transit functionally better. I'm a big fan of walking. I have always loved walking and I always will, much more so than most of society. I have no problem walking five or ten miles in an afternoon or evening (well, at least before kids). I strongly favor improving pedestrian and bicyclist access throughout the city. I refuse to take the bus because I refuse to waste a half hour waiting for the damned thing and the schedules are so constricted and I can usually walk to my destination before the bus gets there. BUT: IF giving out passes to the metro were cost competitive with parking, don't you think developers would already be pushing that idea? Tell me: what development projects have you ever been involved with?

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currently rehabilitating a derelict, long vacant commercial property in a low-income, ethnically diverse neighborhood. oh, and it has no off-street parking.

thanks for asking.

replied to biniszkiewicz
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I love the comment about a Starbucks, yeah just what we need 4bucks taking more money out of the Buffalo economy by selling overpriced coffee. Obviously 2 business did not make it there. Starbucks has professional analysts that tell them what site will do well, obviously they decided no on this one.I would not like to see a 4bucks on another site in Buffalo. If I am not confused but their are other businesses in the vicinity that could use a parking lot.

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