Regional December 10, 2009 9:48 AM

PBA Truck Plaza: Making Buffalo a Loading Dock for NAFTA

PBA Truck Plaza: Making Buffalo a Loading Dock for NAFTA

Consider what happened with this New London community, when drug giant Pfizer took over a neighborhood--after a long, hard fight by residents--only to abandon their facilities when hit by the recent economic downturn.

Next, take note of this quote, written in an email to BR by Ron Rienas (top image), general manager of the Public Bridge Authority, in reference to the PBA owned homes in the Columbus Park - Prospect Hill neighborhood:

"If the capacity expansion project does not proceed the houses will still be demolished. If the capacity expansion project proceeds the houses will be demolished. Either way the houses are demolished."

The intentions are clear, though the reason is elusive.  So what if the houses come down, and what if the truck plaza expansion is blocked?  In the balance, other than the PBA owned properties, are another 80+ homes.  Though some homeowners have opted to sell and move, many would like to stay put.

The Canadian run PBA considers itself beyond American jurisdiction, and without any need to answer to American standards. At the same time, Rienas says that a "ratified contract" with the City of Buffalo must be upheld because "a deal is a deal."  This double standard, of relying on a contract (which, according to environmental attorney Robert E. Knoer of The Knoer Group, PLLC, may not actually be legally binding) and the PBA's disregard for American law, further muddles a quandary that has been batted about for years.  According to Knoer, he has looked at the partnering agreement Rienas refers to as a "ratified" contract, and says it is more likely a "gentlemen's agreement" that was made under a different administration, with key players that are either no longer in power or deceased.

"As to the binding nature of the document," says Knoer, "it only requires the City to make 'best efforts' to accomplish the tasks. Making 'best efforts' as the agreement recites in clause 2, would not include violating other laws even if the document is a binding agreement properly adopted by the Common Council."  And perhaps in what is the most hopeful statement to those living in the shadow of the plaza, Knoer says. "No agreement can bind the exercise of sound discretion by a later common council."

Rienas also talks about a revenue gain to Buffalo every time the matter of the plaza comes up, but there are no figures forthcoming to support that.

"Frankly," Knoer says, "the trucks impair tourism. Buffalo benefits from tourism--not the trade goods rumbling across our highways and spewing pollution in our neighborhoods as they travel on to the south--where the jobs went years ago.

"According to the PBA, they are not bound by any New York or Federal Law including NEPA, SEQRA, or historic preservation laws. I have always been amazed by the utter lack of concern for that concept shown again and again by elected officials and the general public."

And then there's all those residents of the West Side that rely on inhalers to deal with their hot-spot of asthma cases. Rienas has questioned in the past, why people [in the Columbus Park - Prospect Hill neighborhood] would want to live there then?  The question is simplistic, but the answer is easy: Those who are against the idea of a truck plaza butted up to, or replacing their properties want to continue to live in their homes without more foul air. In fact, what they hope is that the whole schmear will be moved elsewhere, leaving their neighborhood at least intact and, at best, restored to the Olmsted vision for this prime piece of waterfront property, with the incredible vistas it once enjoyed.

"This entity controls what is undeniably the most important piece of transportation infrastructure in the City of Buffalo," Knoer states, "and yet no one seems concerned that they have taken a public position that they are not bound by City of Buffalo, New York State or federal laws. They even gave them eminent domain authority. I am curious what your readers might think on that issue."

Your thoughts are welcome.

[Author's note: At first noted as an anonymous source by me, the attorney quoted in this article has since requested that he be identified so that those interested in this important public debate can consider the source of all comments and statements from either side. The attorney is Robert E. Knoer of The Knoer Group, PLLC. He has declined to make further statements as the issue of what laws the PBA is subject to remains pending in the United States District Court for the Western District of New York under docket number 04-cv-465. He referred all further inquiry to documents filed in that proceeding which include the full arguments by both sides as to the applicability of New York, US, Ontario and Canadian law to the actions of the Public Bridge Authority.]


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In what may be looked at as the conflict of interest of the year, BR was told by a reliable source that Congressman Brian Higgins has appointed Eugenio Russi to the PBA Board of Directors, chaired by Kenneth Schoetz. Russi is a  Columbus Park resi... Read More

In yesterday's visit to the Buffalo and Erie County Historical Society, Governor Paterson reiterated his stance on using Buffalo as a statewide model for Sustainable Neighborhoods, as stated in his address last week.In a last minute change of agenda, P... Read More

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Grand Island.

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second that.

replied to townline
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"The Canadian run PBA considers itself beyond American jurisdiction" .. How is that when there are 10 members. Five from Canada and five from the US?

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Well it would be fair to discuss how two administrations, both Bush and Obama, have said no to a shared border management. Of course, that would force some to say the Obama administration treated this neighborhood and region with the same action as the Bush administration...so I will doubt that happens.

A shared boarder would place the "dangers" in the Columbus Park - Prospect Hill neighborhood on the other side of the river is a less populated area with land set aside for this.

But I think it is just too hard for people to accept that Barry and Shillary shafted WNY.

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The two savings graces of Buffalo are fresh water and an international border crossing (of which their are only a finite number)facilitating trade between the two largest trading partners in the world. The number of trucks crossing the PB has been steadly declining as other border crossings are easier, offer more services, and facilitate the process with greater efficiency.

BRO has been steadfast against number two. What's the mission again? How many made up arguements are going to be presented by unnamed attorneys? Don't ***** about jobs and then turn your other cheek. You reap what you sow.

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Given that a rising percentage of both international and domestic goods distribution is rail-based at the expense of truck-based, wouldn't a better investment plan focus on building our international rail and transfer capabilities, rather than duplicating an extremely inefficient border crossing in a neighborhood that isn't suited for it?

replied to KarlMalone
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Sounds reasonable to me.

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It is like asking the question why invest in the grid while wind energy is the future. If you think trucking is a dying industry, drive on the Thurway for 15 minutes.

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Terrible analogy.

A more appropriate comparison would be fighting against a coal-burning power plant when a wind-powered plant is a possibility. And I would.

Fighting the grid is silly, because the grid is and will always be necessary for the transmission of electricity. I wouldn't fight against upgrading the transformation grid (i.e. upgrading our rail interchanges, investing in transfer capabilities.) This will make distribution along the transportation grid more efficient, similar to the upgrades being discussed for our electricity grid.

replied to KarlMalone
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I don't think anyone on BRO is against having quality border crossings. The thing is that there are far better options for creating efficient and economically beneficial crossings that what the PBA is trying to ram through the community, while also having a far smaller impact upon a local population.

The thing is, its kind of like incumbents running for office - its a lot easier to just continue to use and expand the status quo than actually finding better candidates for the solution.

replied to KarlMalone
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Truck Plazas and truck traffic do not bring jobs or benefits to the host community, take a look at Detroit for an example.

replied to KarlMalone
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Detroit? Have you ever been around the metropolitan area of Detroit? There are far more jobs and wealth than here. Oakland County is one of the richest counties in the nation.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Take a look at the area around Ambassador Bridge and get back to me. My comment is about the areas directly adjacent to truck plazas.

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No one cares about the area around the bridge. The people who call the shots don't live anywhere near there and the people who do live near there don't matter all that much. A $60,000 home is disposable to someone living in a $500,000 home. $60,000 is a pool and patio for them. That being said, the people around the bridge can always move to a nicer neighborhood, especially in this city. They did that when GM and Dunlop expanded, and they can do that when the bridge expands. I am not saying I agree with it but this is the way our country works.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Jimmy>"No one cares about the area around the bridge. The people who call the shots don't live anywhere near there and the people who do live near there don't matter all that much."

As funny as that corporate apologist, elitist statement is, I think the PBA shares your opinion.
Anybody who values a healthy city and waterfront green space ought to care about the area around the bridge before it is sacraficed for yet another self inflicted civic shot in the foot.

Jimmy>"A $60,000 home is disposable to someone living in a $500,000 home."

Now you are mixing ignorance with your fluffing of the rich.
Look at this place for sale in PB ground zero:

http://www.r-house.com/app.aspx?st=7010&e=detail&propertyid=1768770&propsearch=true

In spite of the pending doom of the neighborhood this place is listed for a healthy 129k over twice your drive by assesment of 60k. Now if the controversey was settled and the neighborhood was not endangered, this house would no doubt sell for much more. Similar places in the EV and cottage district go for about 175-200k and they dont have the waterfront at their doorstep.


Jimmy>"That being said, the people around the bridge can always move to a nicer neighborhood, especially in this city."

It is easy to dispose of someone elses home. Would you be so willing to move if somebody proposed ruining your community? You are forgetting these people are going to loose their shirts on their largest invetment through diminished property values. Is that just?

replied to jimmy
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ILUVPITBULLS - Just two short blocks away from the Columbus house you posted is this beauty on Fargo for $64,000.

http://www.huntrealestate.com/app.aspx?st=7010&e=detail&propertyid=1682669&propsearch=true

There is another right down the street for %59,000 and a host of others within a few blocks listed in the $55,000 - $70,000 range.

You are the one mixing ignorance with your apologizing for the entitled poor.


It is easy to dispose of someone elses home. Would you be so willing to move if somebody proposed ruining your community? You are forgetting these people are going to loose their shirts on their largest invetment through diminished property values. Is that just?

Perhaps that is true. It is also true that they will receive a substantial price for their house and will have the chance to move to a better neighborhood that isn't clouded in diesel fumes. I think it was Blackrocklifer who made the claim that this area was unhealthy because of the exhaust. It might be best for them to take the $120,000 that they get for their $60,000 home and move to a healthier place.


replied to The Kettle
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Jimmy>"There is another right down the street for %59,000 and a host of others within a few blocks listed in the $55,000 - $70,000 range."


...and if you keep looking you will find houses in the 10-25k range. Those as well as the houses you mentioned above are close, but outside the endangered Columbus park neighborhood I was referring to. Go look at this neighborhood between Porter, the Peace Bridge, Niagara and Front Park and tell me it isnt a neighborhood worth preserving. Then tell me if a City with a shrinking middle class and tax base is in a position to throw away this neighborhood and the ones around it for the speculative and questionable benifit of truck traffic.

Jimmy>" It is also true that they will receive a substantial price for their house and will have the chance to move to a better neighborhood that isn't clouded in diesel fumes"

A few will recieve some sort of compensation, fair or not, for their homes if they are located in the footprint of expansion. The problem is the quality of life and property values will be diminished for the more numerous people who live close to the project but are not entitled to recieve compensation. I would think a better solution would be to do something about the diesel fumes instead of wasting a neighborhood.

replied to jimmy
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I am glad you agree with me. Thank you!

replied to The Kettle
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Okay, that was funny.

replied to jimmy
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ILPB - You proved the points that you contested in the earlier reply. There are $60,000 homes in the immediate area and the homeowners will be compensated at or above market value. Homeowners will be able to move to a less polluted neighborhood. They could take the $120,000 (probably more) that they get for the house on Columbus and move just a few blocks away to buy a comparable house for $60,000. That isn't a bad deal for someone who is relatively poor, the $60,000 windfall could equal two years salary. Imagine what that would do for the neighborhood.

replied to The Kettle
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Why not have the Truck Plaza on the Canadian side? They already have the space for it. Why demolish an entire neighborhood for TRUCKS? It makes no scense.

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Because its easier for the federal government to not try to comprehend the logistics of shared border management. More and more, the US is choosing to remain independent of world neighbors (even with the new administration), the opposite of trends everyplace else on earth.

replied to Lego1981
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I believe the argument made by Homeland Security, in re shared border mangement, is that US Agents would not be allowed to pursue a suspect beyond the staging area into Canada (for instance if a vehicle did a U-Turn before entering the area). In addition, there is a higher threshold before Canadian Agents can apprehend due to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

replied to Lego1981
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I believe the argument is centered around the best location for the bridge- balancing the need for making the city both livable and a good place to do business. once these decisions are made, you can't go back. if the 'mission' is to create a city of parking lots where no one wants to live or work, than this is the bridge plan for you.

"Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell."

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It's just too bad they are stuck on this location. Black Rock, near the rail bridge would make a better location. I guess this has already been hashed and rehashed.

It's just too bad they can't create a staging area out closer to Lackawana to push the bottle neck out to an area that is less residential.

We need some innovation!

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Black Rock is actually more densely populated than the Peace Bridge neighborhood and we do not want to be enveloped in a cloud of diesel exhaust either.

replied to Chris
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Malone>"How many made up arguements..."

What of the made up argument that letting trucks rumble through town is good for the economy?

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I don't know ask the logistics providers in Buffalo(Fed Ex Trade Networks, Livingston, Speed, Roar, UPS Supply Chain, ad nauseum), ask the banks in Buffalo which facilitate the trade (HSBC, M&T) ask the lawyers in Buffalo who handle the transactions(Hodsgon Russ, Philips Lytle), the agencies in Buffalo who facilitate (Customs, FDA, Commerce, Treasury), ask the wharehousing facilities and Free Trade Zones. Should I go on, or should we ask their employees.

replied to The Kettle
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I dont think it is a fair assumption to make that just because a company uses shipping, that their future and growth in depends on an excessive and expensive highway system. What economic benifit do we recieve by letting a rig pass through and idle in our town that will outweigh the costs of air pollution and wear and tear on our roads? A buck or two in tolls? An occasional stop at a dinner?

For decades planners have sold us a line of crap that obstructive, polluting and neighborhood killing highways that the huge cost to the taxpayer would be offset by job creation. This has proven to be false as much of the land adjacent to highways is some of the least valuable in town. Look at that place right next to the peace bridgethat was featured on BRO as an apartment conversion. If highways and border traffic were so valuable to the economy, this place would be prime real estate and wouldnt have sat vacant for a decade.

And if the PBA gets their way we loose another middle class neighborhood. I know the conservative elites like to turn their nose up at historic preservation but even you have to see it doesnt make much sence to trash a functional, tax paying neighborhood for a project with no upside.

replied to KarlMalone
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Poodle: With all due respect, I’m not sure I even understand what you are arguing. You asked the question: “What of the made up argument that letting trucks rumble through town is good for the economy?” Translation: what is the regional economic benefit of the Peace Bridge and increased traffic going over it?

The trucks do come and go over the bridge. Yes, tolls are collected and maybe a trucker stops to buy a candy bar. But again, let’s look up and down the supply chain and players involved in that truck crossing the Peace Bridge. The area has long been a cluster to the logistics industry (trucking, customs brokers, warehousing, and distribution). The reason is the bridge. Numerous Federal agencies have offices and buildings and structures in Buffalo because: the bridge. Law firms cater to the industry, other law firms have strong practice areas supporting, again, those truck crossing that bridge. Don’t forget accounting and financial industry. Thousands of jobs; yes that is right, thousands. UB, Canisius, Daemon all have programs which supply graduates to these industries. Why, you guessed it, the bridge.

You’re right. The land adjacent has not been properly leverage, so federal agencies moved into the Larkin Building and Elmwood building, The logistics companies other sites including Lakeside Commerce Park and sections of N. Tonawanda. The banking, accounting, and law industry moved to the downtown core, but you know what, they are all here and/or survive, either directly or partially because of the bridge. Increase the capacity, increase the jobs. The upside again: Jobs!

That’s why people in Washington shake their head at folks like you, you don’t get it. The net economic impact is significant, you just see the truck, Is it greater than 3-4 nice structures which can be moved elsewhere. I know, but lest we forget poor Martha on Porter Avenue, she has emphysema because of those trucks, and b/c she smoked Virginia Slims for 35 years.

replied to The Kettle
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The region does benefit from the international crossing but the host community surrounding the truck plaza/ highway system does not. The region has always had the jobs related to trade going back to the earliest days of using ships, the Erie Canal, or the railroads. Trucking is not the key, location is.

replied to KarlMalone
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So lets ruin the benefits of the many for that of the few. The few being those living in that area. As a whole an improved structure would make it feasible for more trucks to cross here and cross FASTER!

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Thats true but trucks rolling in and out of town for 10 min dont have much of an econmic impact.

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The region doesn't need to route diesel truck traffic through the most densely populated area to benefit. Many of the "few" that have lived in these old neighborhoods for generations are tired of hosting the traffic and pollution for the "benefit of many", we were here first.

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Poodle? Getting under your skin am I?

Malone>"The logistics companies other sites including Lakeside Commerce Park and sections of N. Tonawanda"

Thats a cluster? Couple things: do you think those jobs would still be here if we resricted the flow of trucks over the PB or do you think they would go about their business over other WNY crossings more suited to truck traffic?
Also, do you think having a few companies parking thier trailers in a few random locations is worth spending hundreds of millions constructing a highway-bridge crossing that undermines quality of life for the rest of city residents and businesses?

Malone>"Law firms cater to the industry, other law firms have strong practice areas supporting, again, those truck crossing that bridge. Don’t forget accounting and financial industry. Thousands of jobs; yes that is right, thousands. UB, Canisius, Daemon all have programs which supply graduates to these industries. Why, you guessed it, the bridge"

Way overstated. I doubt the local economy hinges on the need to allow a few big rigs to roll through neighborhoods for a few minutes on their way someplace else. Ill admit a bridge to our largest trading partner is an economic asset but I never said we should tear it down. I do think we ought to restrict truck traffic to other wny bridges that dont run through a dense neighborhood and keep the peace bridge open to cars. We still get the economic benifit of trade but we dont get as many of the negatives from having truck traffic. More importantly, doing that would allow preservation of a neighborhood and restoration of an olmsted park.


Malone>"That’s why people in Washington shake their head at folks like you"

Im proud of that. I have not drank the kool aid and swallowed the crap argument that putting another Kensington expressway will lead to job creation. Why? History has shown that the alledged link of highways creating a handful of warehousing jobs is not worth the damage it does to the rest of town. Again some of the least valuable property in town is such because of the supposed "job creating" highways that run through them.

You are proposing wasting a rare, historic and tax paying neighborhood as well as front park for the sake of some weak argument that the multimillion dollar, taxpayer waste of a bridge plaza must be built to protect our economy. Great thinking.

replied to KarlMalone
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Ilovepitulls, do you now what a broker, a bonded carrier, a bonded warehouse, CES, or bonds are? Its apparent you dont know whats involved in the shipping industry or how many jobs are here related to the industry. You also say that the trucks can you the areas other bridges. There is only ONE other bridge not bridges, further showing you ignorance.

"Way overstated. I doubt the local economy hinges on the need to allow a few big rigs to roll through neighborhoods for a few minutes on their way someplace else".

You doubt, you dont know but you doubt? Its great to see your opinion based on nothing.

A tax paying area? The PBA owns almost all the property they want to use and guess what? They dont pay tax on it so what real lose of tax is there?

You seem to be very unknowledgeable on the subject or very biased.

replied to The Kettle
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Thank you for the kind words.

SLM>"do you now what a broker, a bonded carrier, a bonded warehouse, CES, or bonds are?"

I have an idea. Do you know how many of these jobs exist in wny and how many of them depend on a wider, more intrusive bridge and plaza to survuve? As I told Karl, I know that there is economic activity generated by international commerce and I am all for it. I just dont think the expansion will get us much of a gain in that sector of the economy when you consider the costs. I also dont buy the notion that sacraficing a functional city neighborhood and waterfront public space are worth the vague and questionalbe claims of "jobs" and "economic development" that are being sold to us as a benifit of this project.

SLM>"You also say that the trucks can you the areas other bridges. There is only ONE other bridge not bridges, further showing you ignorance"

They cant cross Rainbow or Whirlpool? I wonder why? Maybe the people of NF ont/ny dont want trucks rumbling through high density neighborhoods. Good to see that they are not willing to sacrafice quality of life for the promise of "jobs".

As far as the bridge"S" comment I was just saying there are other crossing alternatives in WNY including L-Q as well as intermodal options of putting trailers on trains and running them over the IC. Fair enough, if it makes you happy replace bridges with bridge.

SLM>"A tax paying area? The PBA owns almost all the property they want to use and guess what? They dont pay tax on it so what real lose of tax is there"

Dont you think the expansion, mass demolition and further loss of public green space will have a negative impact on property values in the rest of the neighborhood? You ought to look up some of the images of what Hamlin Park, MLK and Cold Spring looked like before the 33 was built.

SLM>"You seem to be very unknowledgeable on the subject or very biased"

We are all biased so dont try to act like your bias is any more valid than mine.

Unknowledgeable? Here is what I do know: we have a wonderful, historic, waterfront neighborhood that offers the public benifit of a stable tax base, community and waterfront parkland. As a city, we could build on this asset by reducing the role of the PB as a truck crossing or at least keep things the way they are.

The other option is to throw this asset in the garbage in exchange for an expensive public work with general, unproven claims of job creation. I say preserve the neighborhood.

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You don't get under my skin, you factless. The reason I don't have time to respond every second is because I work for a living, sorry about that.

Overstated? Actually I understated the numbers. Specifically b/c people like you really don't have a clue as to how big the economic impact is. You ask the question. Let me give specifcs pulled from Census data and NAICS codes (look it up). Looking at Western New York the logistics cluster, including transportation, support activities, couriers, warehousing, and rail there are 831 establishments employing 13,2446 in Erie County. In Niagara county there are 2,512 establishments supporting 12,208 people. That's 3,343 businesses supporting 25,654 jobs because of that truck going over that bridge in one way or another. That is the logistic cluster. Not a firm here or there, real numbers, real jobs.

I know not government jobs like you guys like.

replied to The Kettle
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Ill say it again: will those jobs go away if the pba expansion is blocked or will they just find their way to the L-Q bridge, or rail instead? Also, what does the city have to gain by playing doormat to passing trucks that will wear out our roads, foul our air, ruin a stable neighborhood and diminish public waterfront green space?

Your claim that the "logistics cluster" as well as the banking, law, hospitality, fast food sectors of the economy are endangered by blocking pba expansion is indeed overstated.

Malone>"not government jobs like you guys like.


You are going to play the angry teabagger card on this? The PBA expansion ought to be the poster child for taxpayer waste and govt abuse of authority. Shoulnt you be the one pouting about this project on the ills of government basis?

BTW if you are calling me pet names, it is a pretty good indication that I am getting under your skin. What did you call me in that last post "you factless"? What does that mean?

replied to KarlMalone
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It was a typo, I meant you are fact less, so you come unarmed to the argument. I’ve given you concrete quantitative data to support my argument. Last year 7 logistic companies shifted services and operations to other crossing points b/c of the drop, 2 law firms drop their international practice areas, and 2 banks got out of letter of credit game. Blame it on the economy, right. But these firms didn’t cease, they shifted, or move them elsewhere to busier points of entry.

I’m I overstating the retention and significance of the logistic cluster and the importance of more robust international border crossing with federal money already allocated for it. No.

Your argument is: "you are overstating it" My argument is to present real data demonstrating the tremendous impact the sector has (a.ka. jobs) on the regional economy. Losses and firms shifting production and services out of the area b/c of lower commercial traffic is cause and effect. Again, what does the area have to gain: Jobs. I’ve stated it 3-4 times, figure it out for yourself.

Why not also throw water pollution and children into the arguement mix as well.

Can I come up with your next argument; “No, they aren’t.”

replied to The Kettle
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Malone>"I’ve given you concrete quantitative data to support my argument. Last year 7 logistic companies shifted services and operations to other crossing points b/c of the drop, 2 law firms drop their international practice areas, and 2 banks got out of letter of credit game."

You havent given anything until you posted links to support your claims. Show me a source backing up your tale that delays at the bridge are driving wny companies to other ports of entry and I will take your post seriously. You have to understand, I find it hard to take the word of someone who spends his time trolling the site writing spiteful one liners.

I think it is a stretch to atribute job loss in a resession to delays in a bridge expansion that has been declining in traffic for years. It snowed yesterday. Is that a result of inaction on pb expansion too?

Malone>"what does the area have to gain: Jobs. I’ve stated it 3-4 times, figure it out for yourself"

Why trade a sure thing for the remote possiblity of job creation. You can keep screaming about the "jobs" the politicians have vaguely prommised us all you want but it doesnt make sacraficing a stable city neighborhood and parkland worth the staggering cost.

replied to KarlMalone
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I still don't understand the causal link between the new truck plaza and increased jobs. It is not clear from the facts you have mentioned that the current Peace Bridge plaza is the CAUSE of any of the drop in trade and related industry.

It is entirely possible that the worldwide economic collapse accounts for the drop in international trade. 2 law firms dropped their international practices? I'm pretty sure that's because less business is being transacted because the credit markets dried up and businesses were generally hindered in the ability to finance their inventory and make payroll. Hence, less shipping(and more layoffs). The size of our bridge plaza has absolutely nothing to do with any of that.

replied to KarlMalone
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This is the best argument in favor of the "truck plaza as economic development" position that I've yet heard. However, you are still missing the causal link. To paraphrase that classic South Park joke (that someone used in a different thread a few days ago): Step 1: Demolish neighborhood/build shiny new truck plaza. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!

You have pointed out that there a many jobs are related to the trade and commerce that flows across our border. Nobody is suggesting that jobs are not dependent on existing trade related to shipping. But, what you have not demonstrated is that increased capacity at the bridge will also increase volume of trade. If volume will increase, there could be legitimate benefit to the region as a whole at the expense of this neighborhood and the City of Buffalo. In that case, a cost-benefit analysis would be in order. But how is increased capacity going to increase volume? Explain the causation element. Is the nominal wait at this crossng really suppressing the volume of trade? What's more, if simply increasing capacity at the bridge will actually increase volume, then won't the new plaza back up with congestion just as much as the current one? In which case, the "easing congestion" argument fails.

There are 3 border crossings within very close proximity here. What is the benefit of increasing capacity at this one specific point? What difference does it make to the region as a whole which bridge crossing commerce flows through? Since the City of Buffalo alone is being forced to bear the negative impact of this project, what benefit does the City of Buffalo get from this plan? We live in a county where dozens of separate municipal entities fight each other for economic development scraps and waste scarce resources by duplicating services ad nauseum. If this plaza is such a good idea, we'd be competing amongst ourselves to lure it to different locations. This is nothing but another silver bullet mentality project being pushed at massive expense without any real justificaton beyond, "It will create jobs" without any data or even explanation to support how it will do so.

replied to KarlMalone
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Reflip>"Step 1: Demolish neighborhood/build shiny new truck plaza. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!"

Thats awesome!

I wonder where the fiscal conservatives are today? I figured since they hate these silver bullet, govenment projects they would be all over this one.

replied to reflip
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that's a pretty turd-burger comment. i hope someone demolishes his home.

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great unbiased contribution to the discourse, jeez

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Stage the trucks in Canada- send them over a bunch at a time when inspection booths/area open up on the US side. Problem solved- no need for an expanded plaza in a historic neighborhood.

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I would be careful about painting such a dark picture of the eminent domain tool. Is it being misused by the PBA? I guess it would depend on your opinion of the plaza. I personally feel that the plaza is an abomination and is based on false arguments about the need for roadway infrastructure in this region. Robert Moses used similar tools and pressure to create his vast networks of roadways however he also used this tool in the early part of the 20th century to create the extensive network of parks and parkways on Long Island . Point is this - properly used, eminent domain is a useful planning tool that can serve the needs of the community. I would go as far to suggest that we should be doing something similar to New London and "take" the vacant retail properties along Elmwood that are sitting vacant; reduce the rents to reasonable and market-based rates; and through a city-based authority, rent the properties to legitimate small businesses. Why not? The US Supreme Court has set the precedence.

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Move the trucks north toward the international train bridge. Remodel the peace bridge area for travelers, not heavy traffic.

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No thanks, we live here.

replied to dcoffee
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To paraphrase: NOT IN MY BACKYARD. Is that what you are saying?

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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My neighborhood has been here for over 180 years and has coexisted with shipping, rail, and industry. We are not against developement, just diesel truck plazas or sex offender housing or any other scheme for others to profit while degrading our neighborhood.

replied to jimmy
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So you are saying NOT IN MY BACKYARD. You don't care if the plaza is built in Canada or somewhere else just as long as it isn't built near your house. Right?

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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It was already built in Canada, awaiting the Shared Border Management which our govt has decided to dump. The PBA grabbed and paved a big chunk of Fort Erie, but now it's for naught.

replied to jimmy
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No Jimmy, it needs to be built in an area that is not densely populated residential. Diesel exhaust and people do not belong together.

replied to jimmy
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Well, I think the problem does come back to Buffalo citizens regardless of whether the PBA is exempt from local, state and federal laws.

Why?

Because it comes back to citizens living in a city where they will not demand good citizenship of the institutions that are supposed to be serving them.

Everything in Buffalo is meant to serve the residents of Buffalo for the greater good including the Peace Bridge and the Thruway Authority and Power Authority etc. When we allow bad citizenship things like this happen.

The common council could simply ban the sale of any home bordering the Peace Bridge to the Peace Bridge Authority without council approval.

The toxic pessimism in Buffalo and release of party liberalism which is always controlled by democrats and liberals always leads to apathy when there should be moral outrage.

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It is pretty tough to mobilize citizens when a majority are living in or on the edge of poverty, just making a living can take up most of a persons energy.

The Peace Bridge Authority and Thruway Authority were not "meant to serve the residents" of Buffalo but are regional institutions. Both have benefitted the area at the expense of city residents.

Democrats and Liberals have been the only advocates for our city, Republicans and Conservatives have long abandoned the greater good to empower the powerful and enable the wealthy.

replied to JohnQBuffalo
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That is a very valid point that poverty does silence civic accountability. I will agree with you as I am opposed to the very existence of the Kensington and the Scajaquada.

The Niagara Expressway was alittle different in my opinion. The Niagara Expressway was original built over the Erie Canal which was an industrial and transportation route and much of it was below grade so it was invisable. The main waterfront route along the Niagara Expressway was NIAGARA STREET and that still exists.

The repairs needed to put the Niagara Expressway back into context in my opinion would be:
1) decking over the Niagara Expressway where it is below grade beside the water.
2) not expanding the Peace Bridge but building another Truck only Bridge on Grand Island or Lewiston where there is plenty of room for an expansive truck plaza
3) downgrade the Peace Bridge to passenger car and truck only which would be context specific in its ability to support local trade and tourism.
4) make Niagara Street the Gateway to downtown Buffalo as it was when the Peace Bridge was built and replaced our harbors filled with ferry's.
5) the current expressway would then be little more than a high speed parkway.

The Niagara Expressway should no more be an expressway than Route5 should be an expressway.

Will that ever happen? practically impossible. Its not to say that Buffalonians shouldnt ask for it. If one looks at the success of the Pasquale...the future is much more on the side of high value waterfront real estate than it is for low value expressways and truck plazas. Infact one could say that if Niagara Street were filled with 10+ story high rise residential with waterfront views insulating the interior neighborhoods, then this truck plaza would be impossible and as this is the future of Niagara Street then one could say that this is the last time such a truck plaza could ever be proposed and built. In the future, the only possible place for an expansion would be Grand Island or Lewiston.

One last thought! The backup on the Peace Bridge necessitating the expanded truck plaza is because of more stringent customs rather than more traffic because if you notice that while there is demand for a 2nd Peace Bridge but there is no demand to expand the Niagara Expressway or Route 5 or the I-190.

All the more reasons why this is bad for Buffalo and a clear message about bad citizenship by an unaccountable authority.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Good ideas, I think you are right about residential developement along the waterfront crowding out undesirable projects. I would like to see the 190 moved to the rail corridor through Black Rock and Riverside, doing so would open up a huge area for developement and reconnect these neighborhoods to their historic waterfront. As STEEL has noted we have sacrificed far too much for the convenience of commuters, time to do what is best for Buffalo and our residents.

replied to JohnQBuffalo
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Trucks backing up on the Peace Bridge is not due to Customs, it is due to more truck traffic. There has been a decline of traffic due to the economic conditions, but generally truck traffic has ben increasing. Rail has stayed steady in this area, a decline due to the economy but there are only a few commodities shipped to/thru Buffalo on rail. Trucks carry everything else. Customs has revamped procedures to make it faster for trcks at the border so it is not what Customs is doing that is causing the backups.

replied to JohnQBuffalo
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=== It is pretty tough to mobilize citizens when a majority are living in or on the edge of poverty, just making a living can take up most of a persons energy. ===

If they are too lazy to get to work, what makes you think they'll get up and to protest or vote. It isn't about struggling to survive, it is about doing the least to get by.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Most of the poor I know are working at crappy jobs for crappy wages. It is tough for them to get excited about community developement issues.

replied to jimmy
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Blackrocklifer,

The majority of Buffalo's citizens are not living in poverty or near poverty.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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You are correct, I was thinking more about efforts here in Black Rock to mobilize citizens when I stated "the majority are living in or on the edge of poverty". I should have been more clear.
That said I think the metric used to determine the poverty rate is flawed, presently a family of four is not considered poor if the household income is above $22K. There are many households here in Buffalo with incomes that exceed that threshold yet are still poor by any reasonable standard.

replied to EricOak
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shades of christine/queen city/lou, whose absence from bro for the last few days was unlamented.

replied to JohnQBuffalo
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Is it because I am well thought out and coherently logical or just wordy and long winded? hahahaha

Never mind, I dont care.

replied to grad94
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The people of Buffalo have:

had their Humboldt Parkway stolen for easy transit to the suburbs.

Had their entire waterfront dedicated to the same purpose.

Had their main park divided by a highway for unknown reasons.

Now a proposal for a new waterfront truck parking lot!

Urban design thinking has advanced quite a bit since those idiotic city killing decisions were made and yet we find the PBA proposing with a strait face the removal of a historic neighborhood for the purpose of a massive truck parking lot with water views! On what planet can this be called a good idea!??

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Why didn't anyone figure that out 50 years ago?

replied to STEEL
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Good question, because it is now obvious just how damaging these highways were for our once stable old neighborhoods. Maybe we should ask for some kind of reparations to compensate for lost value and quality of life or we could charge commuters to pass through our neighborhoods and distribute the money to our residents.
The way it is now the highways only degrade the city and make our neighborhoods less desirable. Whats in it for us? Why should we continue to sacrifice some of the best parts of the city to a non-revenue producing, noisy, polluted shortcut for suburban commuters.

replied to jimmy
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My dad's friends used to say the same thing about the factories in Lackawanna. They'd say we should charge them for the pollution and noise. Now the factories are gone and we are saying the same thing about the highways. The problem is we can't live with 'em and we can't live without 'em.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Difference is the factories provided jobs and paid taxes, unlike the highways.

replied to jimmy
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What more do we need to know about Ron "Moses" Reinas, the trucking pimp? His tenure at the PBA has been an utter failure of overreaching and accomplishing nothing. There's still no bridge and the only signs of their "progress" are homes needlessly rotting away. But what's all that compared to a few fat envelopes from his friends in the trucking industry?

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He has been an utter failure. Good guy, but there is no excuse why the twin bridge, signature or whatever hasn't been built yet.

replied to sonyactivision
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Figures an internet tough guy would look up to another tough guy.

replied to KarlMalone
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Ditto to you too

replied to The Kettle
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Pitbull: you work for BR, not to expose you, but it is a well known fact.

replied to The Kettle
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More folks should look into the Public Authorities Accountability Act. A public authority of any kind should not be sitting on any throne. Hence, the word "public."

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Albany is unwilling to make changes, so the authorities can pretty much get away with whatever they want. There is no accountability despite this act. They are all run by patronage appointments and they are all run to benefit employees and the state. No one in any of the authorities is the least bit concerned about the people they are supposed to serve.

replied to MRodgers
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You know what? I'm in total agreement with you on that, jimmy.

replied to jimmy
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How many of thePBA board members actually live in Buffalo?

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that is a good question. does anyone know?

replied to STEEL
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Reinas lives in "Atlantica" the mystical land from Halifax to Hamilton, where all the world's goods rumble through on trucks to be finished by millions of elves with passports, working in warehouses with retinal scanners by the timeclock.

replied to STEEL
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Looking at the current plans here is my suggestion. Move the location of the truck plaza down farther to the current location of the 190 s. Raise the road to go over it, allowing it to be farther from residential neighborhoods, below grade(the 190 is about 30ft lower than the current plaza) closer to the winds off the water allowing them to pull the exhaust away. The road already goes up a slope to the porter st exit, so begin the raised portion inbetween the old toll booths and the porter exit. Just a thought.

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Grand Island.

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You are declaring war on Grand Island? Them there's fightin' words!

replied to townline
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ISN’T BOB KNOER THE ATTORNEY FOR THE AMBASSADOR BRIDGE? The same Ambassador Bridge group that wants to steal the truck traffic profits and put them in the pockets of a single billionaire owner instead of back in the public’s hands? You’d think this would have been mentioned by the author of this article. Whatever happened to full disclosure?

How can Mr. Knoer sit there with a straight face and accuse the Peace Bridge of not following environmental laws while they have spent years working on a required Environmental Impact Study? The Ambassador Bridge people have done no such study in this area and have refused to do any such study in their attempt to twin their bridge in Detroit/Windsor. Maybe the reason they haven’t bothered to spend money on an EIS in this area is because their project and location (the railway bridge at Blackrock) have already been shot down at every turn.

If the Ambassador Bridge people ran the Peace Bridge they would have already fenced off Front Park, put up signs on the fence that say keep out due to homeland security, and then just start to build whatever they want without any kind of building permits or approvals on land they don’t even own. This may sound like an exaggeration but it is exactly what they have done in Detroit at the public park right next to their bridge. Do a quick Google search and read about it for yourself.

Any newscast, news article, or publication that refers to the Peace Bridge expansion project as a “Truck Plaza” either has an agenda, is trying to stir the pot for attention, or just plain does not know what the project even specifies. This project greatly expands auto capacity as well. It has to as the Peace Bridge has recently become the number 1 crossing for autos.

Another inaccuracy from the article or posted comments includes the fact that yes; the Peace Bridge is not required to pay any property taxes on the properties they own, BUT DO ANYWAY in order to be good corporate citizens.

Isn’t the intent of the Peace Bridge project to expedite the flow of traffic and eliminate the congestion, traffic lights, and idling, thereby improving air quality? This project also doesn’t take away any additional waterfront, while ADDING acreage to Front Park. Makes sense to me.

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I agree with you concerning Ambassador, these guys are one step away from organized crime in the way they do business but in the interest of public disclosure are you in anyway connected to the PBA or property owners interested in selling to the PBA?

replied to RealityChek
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"Whatever happened to full disclosure?"

In the interest of what you ask above, I think it would be good if you state who you are. Who knows, maybe you'll garner more support for your efforts by being forthcoming. Rather than "outing" Knoer, maybe you should let the readers know you.

My efforts to tell both sides of this story have been thwarted by so much unsubstantial information on the one side, that it becomes unreportable in anything other than straight quotes. To do that would be acting as nothing more than a PBA mouthpiece.

This is why, in the end, I'm left with the task of reporting on the neighborhood-cum-truck plaza, the rotting houses, the community at risk for questionable commerce. Those are the only tangible realities I've been presented with.

replied to RealityChek
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Elena: Please don't give yourself credit, you are not a reporter, rather a blogger where fact, fiction and spin all meet. Good reporters write objectively and don't interject their opinion in every other sentence. If one side, or in this case, both sides spin they get their facts elsewhere.

Nothing wrong with what you do and how you do. In fact, it adds to the discourse. But you are not a reporter, you are a blogger.

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Im waiting for you to post some evidence supporting your claims from our earlier discussion.

replied to KarlMalone
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I've never denied stepping out of a journalistic box to take an advocacy role, but you can label me a blogger if you like. If not for advocacy for Buffalo - citizens, businesses, not-for-profits, schools, development - we wouldn't have anything to write about.

In this particular ongoing story (read conflict), the only one issue that we know to be real is one of a neighborhood vs. a plaza that would cover over 40 acres. The statements in support of a plaza that is supposed to enhance our economy are weakened for lack of data.

How does hosting a 40+ acre plaza boost our economy? How does removing a neighborhood enhance our lives? What is the benefit to American citizens and residents of Buffalo?

replied to KarlMalone
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Elena: Excuse my vigor. There are really three issues that get me: a water resource economic development strategy for Buffalo (love to see some chatter about this), I hate abortion (this is not the proper forum), and the Peace Bridge.

I basically take issue with your following statement: “The statements in support of a plaza that is supposed to enhance our economy are weakened for lack of data."

I think there actually is a lot of research and studies (which I site below) which demonstrate the economic impact. These are only at the regional level; the national level has a lot more data to support trade and increased commercial traffic flows between Canada and the U.S . Obviously it is an investment and it’s in the future so these are largely hypothesis, but they are largely economically sound and the economic argument is made.

I can't speak the neighborhood issues b/c those are real issues, only the economic case.

The diesel fume argument does not hold a lot of water, especially with clean diesel filtration systems which are now mandatory (diesel emissions standards). The technology largely comes from Corning just down the road and utilized by Cummins which has a huge local factory in Jamestown, NY. Clean technology and both companies employ a lot of people locally.

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I already have. I gave you the Census data by NAICS code. Go look it up as it demonstrates the logistics cluster. Both the Partnership and WTCBN have numerous studies, call them and ask them for them. I'm not your servant.

Also, check out the Regional Institute (UB) Region's edge reports which
-21% of the Buffalo Bills seasons tickets and 28% of the Buffalo Sabres games tickets are sold to Canadians.
- 1/3 of the passengers flying out of the Buffalo Niagara International Airport are Canadians and are the primary reason for the success of that airport.
- 40% of the D’Youville College students are Canadian.
- Peace Bridge is a key conduit for companies like Rich Products, Delphi, General Motors, and tourism attractors like Darien Lake, Holiday Valley Ski Resort, Shea’s Performing Arts Theater, Kleinhans Music Hall, and the Inner and Outer Harbor projects.
- Canada is New York’s number one export market. It accounts for 25% of New York’s exports – larger than its next three trade partners combined.

Facilitating great efficiency in cross-border trade will only increase these numbers

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I need a link so I know you are not pulling those figures out of ur @$$.

And to second BLRs comment, most of those figures you posted are not related to diesel trucks or an intrusive truck plaza. In fact, limiting or re-routing truck traffic from the PB would make crossing for passenger cars more efficeient. That means more tourism which would benifit all of the bullet points you just listed. In other words you just strengthend the anti expansion argument.



replied to KarlMalone
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See my comments below. Here is a reading list:

Buffalo Niagara Partnership and World Trade Center, Logistics Council Meeting, April 14, 2009.

James Cartin (2004), “Rail Service Assessment and Opportunities for New Growth in the Buffalo-Niagara Region,” pg. 1-28.

Niagara BiNational Region Economic Roundtable (2003), “Realizing a Vibrant Niagara BiNational Region,” pg. 1-26.

Ontario Ministry of Transportation (2005), “Bi-National Transportation Strategy for the Niagara Frontier,” pg. 1-42.

SUNY Buffalo's School of Architecture and Planning and School of Law (2006), "Niagara Falls International Airport: A Bi-National Air Cargo Gateway," pg. 1-85.

World Trade Center Buffalo Niagara (2007), "Niagara Falls International Airport Regional Air Cargo Study," pg. 1-15.

World Trade Center Buffalo Niagara (2008), “Intermodal Freight Terminal Volume Feasibility Study: Opportunities for a Logistics Park in Buffalo, New York,” pg. 1-26.


Uma G. Gupta (Date Unknown), “A Framework for Developing a Strategic Plan for the Transportation and Logistics Industry of Buffalo, New York,” pg. 1-13.

Development Research Partners (2005), “Understanding Regional Strengths: A Study of Key Industry Clusters in the Buffalo Niagara Region,” pg. 1-85

replied to The Kettle
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Furthermore, most goods moving to and from North America move in intermodal containers: the 20 foot and 40 foot containers that move from origin to destination via vessel, rail and truck. The standard unit of measurement for this trade is the Twenty-foot Equivalent Unit (TEU). Thses are the steel containers on cargo ships you see, as well as on trucks and rail. Growth has been dramatic: from less than 40 million TEUs in 1995 to 85 million TEUs in 2005 and projections of 120 million TEUs in 2010. By 2020 it is expected to grow by double. This enormous growth has caused congestion at the places where the containers are transferred from one mode of transportation to another: the ports where they move from vessel to rail or truck and the intermodal rail yards where the containers move from rail to truck. They have also congested the border crossings. A lot of frieght goes into Canadian ports but then comes down into the U.S. How do we deal with this future congestion, since Buffalo is a major player in it all b/c of our geography. Do we embrace it our ignore it.

replied to KarlMalone
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Most of your examples are not related to diesel trucks. Nobody is against a more efficient border crossing, just against a gigantic truck plaza.

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So Blackrock let me ask you a question then? If the truck plaza footprint was greatly reduced, would for or against the construction of a twin span or signature bridge or whatever to ultimately replace the Peace Bridge at that location?

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Karl- I don't see a need for a new bridge or plaza. Re-route trucks to a new crossing away from densely poulated areas, (the foot a Sheridan Drive for example) or better yet make better use of rail and use trucks for local delivery only.

replied to KarlMalone
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Lots of data here about US-Canada bridge traffic at the three major border regions, published this year by a group at UB:

http://www.wwu.edu/bpri/files/2009_Feb_Border_Barometer.pdf

On pg 5, it says 2003-2007 truck traffic grew 10% at the Detroit-Windsor bridges (blue line on graph) and declined by about 8% each in Buffalo (magenta) and Vancouver (green).

On quick glance that looks to agree with some of what Karl was saying before about the Buffalo crossing losing truck traffic vs. Detroit, although it just shows figures and doesn't discuss causes or impacts.

Pg 8-9 has 2007 traffic volume and booths. Pg 3 has import-export $ figures (trucks, rail) for the three regions.

It looks like a good resource, although it doesn't get into issues about the plaza, new bridge, or economic spin-off.

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2003-2007? Really? Anything happen since? And for all we know, it could have been mexican produce driving those increases in traffic since Canada's been on a currency and commodities roll during that time. I don't doubt the argument that an expanded truck plaza would speed traffic at the bridge and improve customs. I just doubt that those improvements justify destroying an entire neighborhood. On the other hand, if it was an Intel plant, I'd be out there driving the bulldozers...

replied to whatever
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Did you read what whatever wrote Karl? Thats how you post.
Well written, well thought and most important, a link to back up what he is saying. I think you would get your point across better if you posted like that instead of huring insult riddled rants.

Looks like good stuff too but Im not arguing against international commerce am I? I would love to see WNY continue to benifit from its postion as point of entry but I dont want to see existing assets sacraficed to do it. The economic gain from pb expansion is speculative at best and not worth the expense of a neighborhood and parkland.

@ Sony about the intel plant: Dont forget, this article alludes to a true story in Connecticut where a neighborhood was bulldozed for a pfizer plant. After the neighborhood was destroyed, phizer pulled the plug and now they are left with nothing.

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Poodle:

You wanted back up support and I provided you with a reading list. That's means you actually have to go to the library and read them, not just click on it. You really are useless aren't you, although I'm sure you parents told you this again and again when you grew up.

replied to The Kettle
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The WTCBN docs Karl referenced might not be online, so he can't be expected to provide links that don't exist. At least the WTCBN web site doesn't seem to have links to them. (Maybe they sell those docs to its members? Or maybe they're online somewhere not easy to find?)

When Googling for those, I found the report I linked - which looks like it supports what Karl said earlier about Buffalo's border truck traffic declining the past few years by nearly the same amount Detroit's border truck traffic grew. It doesn't try to analyze reasons for that or estimate the resulting economic impact, but it does a good job graphing the raw numbers.

replied to The Kettle
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Yeah I get that. As someone who contributes little more than chicken $hit internet put downs, I dont think Karl can be trusted to provide reliable info in a discussion. I also tried googling some of what he wrote and found nothing which further leads me to believe he is full of crap.

If you found something that says the PB is losing traffic to the AB thats fine. I never said I dont want wny to profit from its position as a border crossing but I did say this project isnt worth its exorbitant cost. There still is no proof that a multi million dollar public project will do anything to bring more commerce related economic activity to wny. In addition, its pretty reckless to throw away proven assets for questionable speculation that a few jobs will be created as a result.

replied to whatever
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pitbull>"I dont think Karl can be trusted to provide reliable info in a discussion"

It isn't an issue of trusting any individual. Elena's side of the argument makes some claims too that can't be proven or haven't been (For example, there's plenty questionable in "...the trucks impair tourism. Buffalo benefits from tourism--not the trade goods rumbling across our highways and spewing pollution in our neighborhoods as they travel on to the south--where the jobs went years ago. ...").

You may trust her and you don't demand documented "proof" of those claims - but that doesn't mean her side's arguments about this are more full of objective truth than Karl's.

There's many complicated aspects of this.

replied to The Kettle
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I would take yours, ECBs, or most of the people who post here word over someone with an obvious agenda of trashing every story that gets printed here. You cant verify everything but I consider individual crediblity as a factor over what is bs or not.

As far as the example goes I would tend to beleive that considering the source and my own observations. That may be why the two crossings in tourist heavy Niagara Falls divert truck traffic to the PB and LQ. That and they may not see the burden of traffic, fumes and excessive road wear worth the supposed economic benifit.

replied to whatever
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Silly arguments such as "trucks impair tourism" in Buffalo, or implying that all trucks crossing from Canada travel past WNY "on to the south--where the jobs went years ago" should hurt the credibility of anyone who says them or publishes them without questioning. Were there any screams for proof of those, or for data to back them? Nope.

By the way, if Mr. Knoer does represent the Ambassador Bridge group then he was very hypocritical when he said in the above article that there's no local economic benefits of bridge truck traffic - unchallenged by the article's author who you find so credible that you'd never demand any proof from her.

Doesn't Ambassador say truck traffic is locally beneficial and deserves a separate bridge? Are we to beleive Mr. Knoer disagrees with his own client about that?

replied to The Kettle
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Ambassador will say anything to further their own agenda. Their agenda is to make money, nothing else, they could care less about the area they do business in (and have proven this in Detroit). Why would any reasonable person believe any of their self serving propaganda?

replied to whatever
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Your agenda is just as self serving as Ambassador's. Just saying.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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No, I am not trying to profit at the expense of others. I am simply trying to protect the health of my family and the neighborhood where we have lived for 6 generations, big difference.

replied to sho'nuff
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Is it silly though?

Why have the people of Niagara Falls US-Ont gone out of their way to steer truck traffic from their three crossings to Buffalo + Lewiston?

http://niagarafallsbridges.com/

Look up "trucker options" and the site immediately directs you to Lewiston-Queenston.

Both Niagara Falls have large highways but they downgrade as they approach Downtown and the border where there are large quantities of pedestrians and tourists. If large quantities of idling semis had no negative impact on tourism and was the economic dynamo that some have claimed, wouldnt one of these communities make efforts to compete with Lewiston or Buffalo for truck traffic?

I think it is telling that NF (NY), a town that has repeatedly shot itself in the foot with devloper friendly destructive projects, can see that heavy truck traffic and tourists-pedestrians dont mix.

replied to whatever
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pitbull>"Why have the people of Niagara Falls US-Ont gone out of their way to steer truck traffic from their three crossings to Buffalo + Lewiston?"

Oh, the "people" made that decision you say?
Where's your proof of that? Where's your data? Huh?

How do you know that isn't because the Whirlpool and Rainbow aren't physically suitable for significant truck traffic? Where's your link to show it's because of the reason you say?

And are you saying the people of Lewiston and Queenston allow so many trucks in their communities because they all hate tourism?

Who said there couldn't be separate bridges for trucks and cars in Buffalo? That's exactly what Ambassador is proposing.

It sounds like the "people Niagara Falls US-Ont" (a.k.a. the NF Bridge Commission) are very pro-truck. They even brag about recently maximizing their Lewiston-Queenston truck plaza footprint:
From http://niagarafallsbridges.com/bridge_news.php3
"The 47 year old plaza at the Lewiston-Queenston Bridge is being redeveloped to expedite travel time for both passenger cars and commercial trucks. It is designed to increase inspection capacity, raise the velocity of throughput and maximize the footprint of the plaza to better support plaza operations.

Some of the features of Phase One of the project include:
- a new commercial primary customs processing area, expanding from three to five lanes for truck inspection,

...The first phase, completed at a cost of $49 million, expanded the commercial truck processing area from three to five lanes, dramatically helping to decrease the time trucks spend idling.

The Lewiston-Queenston Bridge is the fourth highest volume commercial crossing between Canada and the U.S., with millions of dollars in trade value crossing over the bridge each hour, which represents thousands of jobs for both Canadians and Americans. ..."

Do the "people Niagara Falls US-Ont" (a.k.a. the NF Bridge Commission) sound more like you and Elena, or more like Karl?

NFBC>"... It is designed to increase inspection capacity, raise the velocity of throughput and maximize the footprint of the plaza to better support plaza operations.
... millions of dollars in trade value crossing over the bridge each hour, which represents thousands of jobs for both Canadians and Americans..."

replied to The Kettle
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Whatever>"Oh, the "people" made that decision you say?
Where's your proof of that? Where's your data? Huh?"

Okay I can see feelings are hurt so I will make this my last post on this page.

Did you read the link I posted on the NF bridges smart a$$?

If that didnt help take a gander at google maps and observe how highway connections and their trucks are diverted away from the downtowns and bridge crossings. If the Niagara Bridge Commission and a satalite map are not credible sources to you, one of your snarky palls yelled at me earlier about Buffalo and Lewiston being the only bridges you can cross by truck. Again, why do you think tourist heavy Niagara Falls ny-on would divert the rolling gold mine to points north and south if it didnt conflict with tourism? If it wasnt the people of the falls my guess is it was someone or a group of people who had a vested interest in falls tourism.


Whatever>"It sounds like the "people Niagara Falls US-Ont" (a.k.a. the NF Bridge Commission) are very pro-truck. They even brag about recently maximizing their Lewiston-Queenston truck plaza footprint"

Yeah I just said that in my previous post: ILPB>"Look up "trucker options" and the site immediately directs you to Lewiston-Queenston" Yes trucks are directed to(read slower this time) L E W I S T O N. well north of densly packed, tourist heavy Niagara Falls. Did you read anything I wrote or are you just having a bad day?

I am in total agreement with the NFBC using bridges in downtown NF for liesure, commuter and rail and restricting truck traffic to L-Q where there is more room for the vast economic windfall of being a semi doormat.

Where would you like to see truck related commerce? In a middle class neighborhood on the West Side? In tourist areas by the Falls? Or near power lines, transformers, highway interchanges and acres of open space?

Whatever>"Do the "people Niagara Falls US-Ont" (a.k.a. the NF Bridge Commission) sound more like you and Elena, or more like Karl?"

Since they are wise enough to keep potentially harmful truck traffic away from high density neighborhoods Id say they sound like Elena.

I will say I was wrong about you being more credible than Karl. Both of you are grinding the same anti BRO axe but you do a better job of creating the illusion of objectivity.

replied to whatever
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Whatever>"And are you saying the people of Lewiston and Queenston allow so many trucks in their communities because they all hate tourism"

Again, take a look at the map. There is plenty of tourism in Lewiston (on a smaller scale than NF) at the gorge, Artpark, Fort Niagara etc but it is situated away from international traffic. Looking at all WNY crossings LQ appears to be the best suited for a truck crossing as far as highway access, open space and lack of nearby land uses that would be in conflict. I couldnt think of a better use for land in the shadow of power lines, gigantic reserviors and a golf course.


Whatever>" Who said there couldn't be separate bridges for trucks and cars in Buffalo? That's exactly what Ambassador is proposing."

But then you just shift Columbus Parks problems to Blackrock.
Notice how other communities including Lewiston are not fighting for Buffalos position as a bidge landing for a truck plaza. If ambassador proposed a similar bridge in Grand Island there would be an armed revolt.

IMO the best way to manage the regions crossings would be to restrict trucking to L-Q where as you said, they are proud of it. The other crossings are too close to residential neighborhoods and pose too much of a risk to public health, quality of life, and in Buffalos case, the tax base.

replied to whatever
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pitbull>"Looking at all WNY crossings LQ appears to be the best suited for a truck crossing"

Who ever said it wasn't best suited? Being best suited doesn't necessarily mean it should be the only one in all of WNY.

And yes, it was silly and dopey for the alleged lawyer of Ambassador to say in the BR article "the trucks impair tourism".

The Lewiston-Queenston bridge added truck processing lanes and expanded it truck plaza -
http://niagarafallsbridges.com/bridge_news.php3
"The first phase, completed at a cost of $49 million, expanded the commercial truck processing area from three to five lanes... It is designed to increase inspection capacity... and maximize the footprint of the plaza"

Where's any proof that Lewiston tourism was impaired as a result of that?

Also it's very hypocritical if he's the Ambassador Group's lawyer and said in the BR article that Buffalo's economy doesn't benefit from efficient truck access with Canada. That isn't what Ambassador says. Maybe he said that when he planned to be BR's anonymous "source".

replied to The Kettle
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Poodle: you work for BR so your agenda is obvious: to promote it, attack anyone against it. My problem has always been BR is anti-business, not the small retail business in the EV; the storefronts that provide character, but not meaningful jobs. I'm talking the job creators, the evil companies with the big names, the companies that actually employ people in meaningful careers. You know: the bad guys

Being a socialist is great, god (I know there is no god) bless you, but being anti-business, then I'm going to trash you, just not as much as you trash me because I actually work for a living.

-The Troll-

replied to The Kettle
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Karl- I think you fail to understand that not everyone worships at the altar of materialism. Many have rejected consumerism and are seeking a more balanced and simpler life. Those of us on this path just don't value the things that "big business" provides. We are just as hard working as any but choose a more modest and meaningful lifestyle.

replied to KarlMalone
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Didn't you spend the weekend at your second home in the southern tier?

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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No my driver, cook, housekeeper, and groundskeeper were all stuck behind tractor trailers on the Peace Bridge.

replied to sho'nuff
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You did spend the weekend at your second home, and probably drove the thruway to get there.

Despite the high and mighty preaching, you are really a materialist after all.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Owning a rustic cabin doesn't equate with being materialistic. I don't need the Thruway to get there though I will admit to using it.
I was just pointing out to Karl that his idea of success isn't for everyone.

replied to sho'nuff
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There are people in your neighborhood who can barely afford the rent on their duplexes and you have a second house and land in the southern tier. Must be nice to be wealthy enough to afford to own two homes and to get away from the noise and smog of the city. Meanwhile those around you suffer in poverty. I don't see how you can speak for the poor when you are flaunting your wealth.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Of course there are poor people here but there are also middle class and even a few wealthy individuals. We all get along pretty well and most are generous with what we have.

My wife got a real kick out of the "flaunting your wealth" comment while neighbors "suffer" in poverty, especially considering how many have been out to our place.

replied to sho'nuff
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Take the poor to the country... how quaint!

I am only making the comment because you are so quick to judge suburbanites as elitist and label them as materialistic. Meanwhile you have two houses and probably a whole lot of other possessions that match the suburbanites you frown upon. I guess it is ok for you because you live in the city, but not ok for them because they don't.

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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No I don't have 2 houses, I have my home that I purchased for five thousand dollars and spent the past 20 years restoring and a rustic cabin in the country. I don't have "a lot of other possessions" as you claim, just ask my wife as my reputation for not buying stuff is legend.

replied to sho'nuff
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Thanks for explaining to me why we are secondest poorest city in America and proud of it. Maybe we should bring back the jingo "Buffalo's got a Marxist spirit, talking poor, talking poor. Listen up and will distribute it equally, not based on effort, talking poor, talking poor....

replied to Black Rock Lifer
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Malone>"Buffalo's got a Marxist spirit..." "Being a socialist is great"

Wait a sec arnt you the one fighting for the estimated 1/4 billion dollar public bridge project? You are the one calling for massive public spending and re-distribution of public money to a few special interests but we are the socialists?

replied to KarlMalone
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No poodle you are an idiot on the bankroll of Buffalo Rising. You post to illicit comments from others w/o disclosing this fact, so you are immoral and untruthful.

replied to The Kettle
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We are the 3rd poorest, not 2nd. Where is all this wealth being distributed equally? I see a huge gap between the haves and have nots and it uually has little to do with "effort" by either group.
Being born into the middle class or above generally means a person will stay in that demographic, being born poor generally works the same way.

replied to KarlMalone
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I gotta admit this rant between the two of you has made for several good morning reads but I must apologize for interrupting. My question is, Can the Peace Bridge Authority force the owners of the properties to sell to them or does it come down to offering a price they can't refuse? From my understanding the government can force them out for the betterment of everyone else but will this bridge be considered "for the good of all" and warrant such a move?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London

The PBA can do whatever the f*ck they want...

replied to jolopy
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Does anybody know Byron Brown's official opinion on the Peace Bridge expansion?

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Malone>"you work for BR "

If I did 90% of your posts would get deleted.

Malone>" My problem has always been BR is anti-business, not the small retail business in the EV"

Make up your mind. Does Bro support business in the EV (and the rest of the city) or is it anti business?

Lots of people like to boo hoo the fact that there are not enough of the "big names" in wny who create "meaningful careers". They cry about everything we, as a region dont have while gumming corporate types and apologize on their behalf for their percieved lack of presence in wny. You guys are the type to get all worked up over simple minded, expensive public projects that redistribute public money into the hands of a few benificiaries (the "bad guys") while offering little in return to the public good.

Some of us feel that a more efficient and effective policy would be to encourage the small businesses and community organizations that you like to mock, instead of throwing so much into ill concieved, destructive, silver bullets like Peace Bridge expansion.

Malone>" god (I know there is no god) bless you, but being anti-business, then I'm going to trash you"


You then beat your chest and make empty threats at anybody who questions such developments and sling childish names and put downs.

Malone>" because I actually work for a living"

And I dont? You make it sound like I spend too much time here and yet you find time to post as often as I. Besides I thought you said I work for BR.

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Hot troll-on-troll action!

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