High Speed Rail: Third Track Initiative

One other reason that NYS is positioned well for this.

The ROW (Right of Way) for the Buffalo to Albany line was historically 4 tracks wide. Its down to 2 in most areas, some areass of passing (3 tracks) and some single track (west of albany for 20 miles or so).

Other than trying to straighten some of the track (not sure if that is a goal), land doesn't need to be bought...it already exists!

Lastly, the 8 Billion is just the first round of funding. NYS will not get 4billion of the 8, although it would be awesome. However, there are signs I belive for long term funding each year for High Speed rail..PAST this first 8 Billion.

What a complete waste of money. $4.8 billion (make it $10 billion when all is said and done) to speed people from downtown Syracuse to downtown Buffalo. Or from Grand Central Station to downtown Syracuse. We can already travel by bus, car, airplane and a train (yes, I know, a very slow train). And what will the subsidy be because the ticket price will only pay for a small fraction of the actual cost?

People, we are facing trillion dollar annual deficits as far as the eye can see. We cannot afford this luxury.

And how are 247,825 jobs (as opposed to 246,789 jobs) going to be created during the construction period?

In the article's 3rd item under "Jobs":
"The New York State Senate Task Force on High Speed Rail estimated that a program of high speed rail investment could produce 6,500 "person years"* of employment in New York state communities over the course of the 10-year implementation period. *One person year is equivalent to one person working a full year."

So they're saying 110 mph rail could create 650 long term jobs (6,500 person-years divided by 10 years) across the whole state. They tried to hide the low number by expressing it in person-years over 10 years. How clever.

$4.8 billion to create 650 long term jobs in the whole of NY state. That's over $7 million per long term job. And that's if the 650 jobs that they estimate could be created actually are.

The issue has to do with the class of the railroad track relative to speed. 350mph trains in europe and asia are on dedicated track with minimal road crossings. In the US, passenger rail and freight rail often run on the same tracks and the same routes with frequent road crossings.

Those road crossings require more and more expensive signaling and requirements as trains go faster and faster so its not just building a dedicated rail track or straightening out track here or there.

The major beneficiary for the last 10-15 years has been albany and the major beneficiary for the next 10-15 years will most likely be albany. The distance that has the most traffic is between albany and nyc. Any additional spurs such as Montreal, Boston or Buffalo will all benefit Albany. It will be quite sometime before the Buffalo spurs to Niagara Falls, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Cleveland get any funding.

Oh and its much bigger issue than man hour jobs. For example, there is ALOT of economic stimulus in downstate that builds up infrastructure and companies...who then take their companies or their expansion plans and relocate or expand in lower cost Connecticut or Pennsylvania. Even New Jersey is lowercost than manhatten...but no one in Albany or downstate takes issue that nys dollars are bleeding into other states when they should be encouraged to move to lower cost upstate (Albany, Utica/Rome, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo). High Speed Rail is most definitely an issue to reconnect NYC metro and downstate back to NYS! Further, if Toronto and NYC could be connected together by air and rail then that would be 2 growth engines that could bleed jobs into our area.

As we saw from 911...were have transitioned from canals and horses, to railroads, to autos and airplanes...now we have learned that it we can no longer depend on one single form of transportation. We need a mix and a balance and to leverage where each is most efficient.

this project should be pushed up immediately. Stuff like this is what will bring our area back. This is the total opposite of wasting money, the impact would be tremenduos

While super fast Euro-style trains are awesome and I'm all for them in the future, I think we as a country really need to get it together with our rails on a more basic level. We as a city, a state, and a country need to make the consciencious decision to use rail to transport ourselves and our stuff. In order to get people to take a train instead of driving to a destination it has to make sense for them to do so. If Amtrak had its own track and didn't have to yeild then people could get to where they're going in a reasonable amount of time. Nobody wants to sit around for an hour to let another train go by. If people knew that their trains would be on time and the time in transit to their destination is comparable to driving, I think most people would choose the legroom, comfort, and amenities of Amtrak, because really the ride itself is a good time it just sucks that it takes so long. If I were Governor I would look to recruit a former Minister of Transportation from a Western European country to come rattle a few cages and make the NYS rail corridors more efficient and competitive. The rail corridor from Niagara Falls to Albany is incredibly important and could be a boon for Upstate if we all get behind it and really do it right. If improvements are made in border security and if VIARail has high speed ambitions then it will connect Buffalo to the GTA, the rest of the Golden Horseshoe, and with a high speed Adirondack corridor we would be connected to Montreal, Quebec, and Ottawa. Oh and that New York City place too. Thats alot of people in alot of cities. And if a lot of cities are working together well then thats just great. Lets build a smarter planet.

Better transportation results in more jobs period. (actual period added for emphasis)

The Erie canal, the railroads, the National Road, highways, ports, all have created or sustained jobs and development. HSR would likely not be an exception. The region already knows what happens when it gets bypassed as a transportation artery - think St. Lawrence Seaway. Lets not allow the past to repeat itself.

Now its true, quantifying the numbers may not be as scientific as some may claim. Nevertheless, that does not mean there is no merit to the project. Its far from a waste of money. Its an investment into the state's and region's future.

pitbull>"Usually when you speak in favor of highway construction you base your argument on job creation/retention through efficient movement of goods and services."

pitbull, Drivers pay for most costs of road projects by the gasoline taxes and other car-related fees and taxes. Maybe the gas tax should be raised enough to pay for it all. Regardless, the economic impact for transporting people and goods by cars and trucks is much higher than this would be.

Do you realize how small a number 650 long term jobs is across NY state in return for $4.8 billion of spending? It's over $7.3 million per job. Unreal.

The 650 isn't just growth in people to be hired by the rail system - it's the TOTAL jobs impact they're projecting for the whole economy of NY state.

Again, quoting the article above, under "Jobs":
"...The New York State Senate Task Force on High Speed Rail estimated that a program of high speed rail investment could produce 6,500 "person years"* of employment in New York state communities over the course of the 10-year implementation period.
*One person year is equivalent to one person working a full year. ..."

For perspective, 650 jobs spread across all of NY state resulting from a $4.8B rail project is even less than the 1,090 jobs being promised by NYS to result from the Canal Side project in Buffalo whose public spending would be well under 5% of $4.8B.
From http://www.eriecanalharbor.com/project_status.asp
"Canal Side Totals: Total New Jobs: 1090 – 1020 new retail/restaurant jobs, 70 other jobs in hotel, housing, other uses."

That 1,090 jobs estimate for Canal Side is likely b.s. and the project a bad idea, but it looks like the bargain of the century compared this.

Advocates of 110 mph rail are saying we should spend over $7.3M for each permanent job to result from it? And that's supposed to be a positive for the economy and a sensible use of money? What a joke. It speaks for itself that they were trying to hide the 650 number by glossing over it using "person years".

Will the Buffalo News question Hoyt and Slaughter about this? The BN criticized the public subsidy promised to the Yahoo data center which was about $800K per job. The rail project's cost of $7.3M per long term job is nearly 10x more than that.

just a quick note:

Amtrak's Acela route has a farebox ratio of around 120%. Its the long slow (and often Congressionally sought after) long distance trains that have a poor return on investment. Corridor (including our stagnant Empire Service) routes preform much better than the Amtrak system wide average.

I think this is one of the most exciting possibilities out of the "stimulus" package. However, I still am just disappointed by a seemingly watered down initiative in my opinion.

Just this past weekend I saw a special on monorails on TV. In Shanghi they have a magnetic mono rail that goes 20 miles in 7 min.

To me you do this now we are talking something revolutionary and innovative. So 20 miles in 7 min, times this Buffalo to Rochester is 60 miles...so 21 minutes? The NYS Thruway from Buffalo to NYC is 426 miles. ((426miles/20miles)*7min)/60min)=2h 49min with no stops. The bonus though being that the show said this train never reached its top speed!

This train is also extremely efficient as it only turns on the magnets that are needed for power at that time he rest of the track hibernates. Maintenance is also low because there is hardly any mechanical parts.

Imagine 3 hours give or take on a train from Buffalo to NYC. Image the message this would send as New York state as a innovative leader, in transportation. It would shrink the upstate/downstate mentality.

I would love to see something like this Built to the city centers of Buffalo, Rochester, Albany and NYC along the existing thruway and interstates. Why the thruway? You don't have to mess with the freight trains let them have their track beds. These interstates provide all the right of way needed. Also image, how many people driving along the thruway get blown by, by this monorail going anywhere from 3-6 times faster than them, aren't going to think maybe I'm going about this the wrong way?

If we are going to spend Billions of dollars lets be cutting edge, no just a few minutes faster than driving. Cause they you have to rent a car or get a cab anyway when you get there, and you lost your 20 min. Show New York can still work together with a vision to the future. We are the EMPIRE state...lets act like it.

really wrote, "To travel by Bus is not just ridiculously slow, it is uncomfortable, does not provide for WiFi and it is horrible for the environment."

actually, greyhound speeds are highly competitive with amtrak precisely because we don't have hsr and greyhound doesn't have to pull over every time a freight train comes along. greyhound has a plush new line of buses with wifi and electrical outlets to recharge your devices. plus a little more leg room.

while rail isn't as polluting as bus, bus is far less polluting and more fuel efficient than the 40-50 passenger vehicles it replaces.

i'd rather ride the train, too, but until it outperforms the bus on speed and schedule choices, i ride the bus. and it isn't so miserable.

it is premature to throw the bus under the bus. so to speak.

Does anyone here know what the average ticket cost would be from here to NYC? Would it be cheaper than flying or at least more competetive?

I am in favor of train travel as much as the next forward thinking person, but we need to look at this from a regional perspective. Will this really help Buffalo? I think not. For one thing, it will make it easier for me to go spend my disposable income in NYC (I have no reason to go to Albany or 'Cuse). And if you lived in either Albany or 'Cuse, would you choose to get to buffalo in 1-2 hours or NYC in 2-3 hours? Given its' current image as a sespool, you'd be crazy to choose Buffalo. What I'm saying is before we support billions of our tax dollars for rail infrastructure, we first need to turn buffalo into a destination, not a pit-stop. Building this rail with Buffalo in its current position will just result as more people & financial capital leaving the area for downstate.