City October 21, 2009 12:26 PM

Canal Side Hearing: A Packed House and Pertinent Comments

Canal Side Hearing: A Packed House and Pertinent Comments
Last night's public hearing at the Albright-Knox Art Gallery played to around 400 attendees, 60 of whom commented after the initial presentation of the Draft Generic Environmental Impact Study (DGEIS) for Canal Side. 

ECHDC Board Chairman Jordan Levy opened the hearing with the statement that the plan those in attendance were about to see was the culmination of 7 years of work, and he asked that all "keep an open mind."

EE&K Architects Founder Stan Eckstut said that the Erie Canal is where the city began and grew from.  "We're trying to recall it while advancing into the future.  Before, it was all mules and cargo, and our plan is to start to invade it with real people," Eckstut stated.  He pointed out that the objective was in trying to integrate the new with the old, making all things a positive part of the new development.

Though not many in the crowd had time to digest the entire 2,000 pages of appendices to the DGEIS since its release earlier this week, many were able to zero in on the parts that were special to their own interests, thereby giving a wide range of opinions in the comments.  Understand that there was no question and answer period, simply a dissemination of information on the part of the Erie Canal Harbor Development Corporation project planners, and feedback from community members.

After the presentation, many took to the microphone to praise the ECHDC for their efforts, while several others presented issues that they felt had been overlooked in the planning.  The purpose of a public hearing in the draft phase of planning lends itself to modification of the plan by the ECHDC.  As noted repeatedly by local politicians who spoke during the comment phase, it is a rare project in Buffalo that is brought to the public so early with so much information, in an effort to tailor development to the needs and reasonable suggestions of the community.  

That being said, one major theme of the commenters was opposition to the project's proposed parking garage, with most if not all of the friction coming from residents of Marine Towers, along with that of their attorney, who was the lengthiest speaker of the evening's comment segment.

1,400 pages of the plans appendices are dedicated to transportation in actual and projected figures.  Several speakers suggested that there is ample parking in and around the downtown area that would seem to be adequate. However, the entire Canal Side development plan calls for "2,500 close but unobtrusive parking option/spaces in order to accommodate the expected visitors to the entire sight," and that would include the proposed Bass Pro.  While free, covered parking in the ramp is being offered to the residents of the Marine Drive Apartments through the plan, they have concerns about traffic, air pollution, noise pollution and crime due to the structure.  The traffic and pollution issues were addressed in the DGEIS in regard to the parking garage and found to be within acceptable levels. Those findings will be challenged by the apartment complex association's attorney, who called for an extension of the comment period beyond November 2nd, so that he could consult Federal guidelines.

The remainder of the comments called for many plans for things as varied as farmer's markets, ethnic representation for American Indians, and historical perspectives in terms of abolitionists and pre-civil war conditions at the harbor. A representative of Roswell Park Cancer Institute asked that the entire area be declared smoke free, a resident of Marine Drive asked that the project integrate into the community rather than visa versa, and more than one commenter asked that the raw sewage problem with the Hamburg Drain be remediated and considered when adding new sewage systems.

One commenter suggested that the plan make sure there would be two lanes of outgoing traffic on the East side of Main Street, while another asked if we could have "a decent beach."  A frequent boater said he inspired excitement in all of his boater friends this summer when he took them to Canal Side.  He warned that the images in the presentation of barges and boats parked in canals in other cities was fine, but that the plan here needs more docking, a ramp, a pump-out station, showers, bathrooms, and other amenities that would be attractive to boaters.

Peg Overdorf of the Valley Community Association, founders of Buffalo River Fest Park, commented that with Ice Boom Park coming, the harbor project will connect with all of the waterfront south of it, creating "a string of pearls."  She is concerned with public access along the waterfront that would connect all of these separate but related venues.

Tim Tielman with The Campaign for Greater Buffalo History, Architecture and Culture said, "If we accept the Generic Environmental Impact Study, we'll end up with a generic plan that could be anywhere."  His concern is over land use in the area, and he fears the ECHDC will "bypass regulations to expedite the project."  He will be holding a workshop on November 1st at CGBHAC in regard to the plan.  "We're asked to accept promises," Tielman said, "but this DGEIS, if approved would de facto supersede the 2004 plan, and will destroy our greatest resource." 

Gladys Gifford, president of the Citizens Regional Transit Corporation said she was disappointed not to see anything about the Donovan Building being featured as a possible multi-modal transportation center.  "We have parking, we have excellent light rail...could you provide for a solar powered carousel?" Gifford asked.  She also noted that in the plan, there was data that stated that parking would be a comfortable walking distance from the venue.  "There's no mention of metro service," Gifford stated.  "This project ignores mass transit."  Gifford said she would like to see the project enhance the existing infrastructure of Metro Rail.

Those who did not have a chance to make comment last night can email their comments and suggestions to Paul Tronolone until November 2nd.


Image: Taken early in the evening before the seats filled up.



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Well, since the Marine Drive residents are so opposed to parking in this area perhaps the solution is to eliminate their giant asphalt parking lot and build a park in its place!

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Oh wait, I understand now. They are only opposed to other people's cars being near their buildings.

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Be fair, Steel. You would be the first to complain if someone wanted to build a 6-story parking ramp right next to your apartment.

Now, I do think part of this is just pure NIMBYism, but I can see where they have a reasonable concern. Plus, I think it's a bit bizarre to be build 3 large parking ramps for a project right at one end of Buffalo's rapid transit line. It all seems somewhat self-sabotaging if the goal is to create an urban, walkable district.

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"bizarre to be build 3 large parking ramps ... at one end of Buffalo's rapid transit line."

Buffalo's rapid transit line provides inadequate access to most of the region's population.

No one in the southtowns can use it aAnd who in the broader northtowns wants to bother with the stop-and-go traffic of Main Street or Millersport Highway to reach the South Campus station?

If Canal Side becomes as successful as we hope, all modes of transportation will need sufficient access to it.

replied to JSmith
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Strange that people who are in subsidized units can field a lawsuit. Sell the buildings to a private entity which would pay thier full share of city taxes, not a negotiated amount.

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Right on. Seconded. I can't wait til the city sells these apartments to the highest bidder. This will be very valuable land.

Also seconded - expand and enhance the light rail (will the Special Events station be used during regular hours now?) and fix the Hamburg Drain issue. Provide amenities for boaters.

These seemed to be very important points. Then there were the "special" interests.

Smoke-free? Native Americans? Abolitionists? This is a shopping area not a museum.

BTW, where were the bicycle people? Aren't they always at these things?

replied to johnnywalker
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The project ignores mass transit? Last time I looked the metro rail runs right through it and I am sure there will be plenty of bus options provided by the NFTA! I'm not sure what the person commenting at the end of the article was referring to, but the money for this project was not mean to improve transportation options in WNY.

PS I am still trying to figure out what happened to the historical museum that was going to be a large part of this?

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Not to sound like mean or anything, but people that are taking the bus to Canal Side are more likely to spend less money at the retail within and surrounding the new development. We need those wealthy suburbanites to drive down with their Range Rover and Lexus SUVs packed with friends and family.

replied to KenS
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5to81ALLDAY- I do agree with you that we need to attract people from all over WNY to the canal side area to spend their money. I also agree that attracting wealthy suburbanites is a good idea. Getting the big suburban money back downtown is always a good thing. Similarly, the Walden Galleria would not work with only Cheektowaga residents going there. Even the Boulevard Mall wouldn't work with only Amherst residents supporting it.

I also have to tell you that not everyone takes the bus or the train because they are poor and can't afford a car. I live in the city and while I am certainly not wealthy I do pretty well for myself, and drive a nice car, but CHOOSE to take the bus and the train to things in the city simply because I like to do that and find it easier than driving to big things. As a city resident I HATE having to drive out the Galleria (or insert mall name here) simply to do some shopping. Elmwood etc simply does not fill all of my needs. Having a great shopping district in the city that I can take the train or the bus to will be where I go every time and I will definitely be spending my money there.

replied to 5to81ALLDAY
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One other thing... can someone threaten to knock down some piece of crap old building with no historical significance in order to distract Tielman from screwing with Canalside?

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I guess we have a different definition of "packed house". I thought the presentations were informative, the emotions were kept in check, and the crowd was very respectful. I like this type of forum because it provides residents with a chance to voice their ideas, objections, and concerns.

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That picture was taken before the meeting started. The seats were pretty much filled in and there were plenty of people standing along the windows.

I thought Eckstut's presentation was rather disappointing. I was really looking forward to seeing the details of the plan. Rather, he mostly just gave dreamy statements about big-picture ideas of what we want Canalside to be. That type of presentation was for months and even years ago. This plan is getting far more detailed, with a lot of changes having been made since February, but those weren't really well depicted in this presentation.

What concerns me is that this is the biggest project in our city in quite some time and I'm not sure that the lead architect is totally aware of the details and its being left to lower level staff designers. That's what it seemed like in Eckstut's presentation.

replied to O'Brien
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There were a lot of seats open during the meeting, but I agree that the architect is missing the big picture and is somewhat out of touch.

replied to townline
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At one time people called the following highly cherished buildings old pieces of crap

Guaranty

ECC City Campus

Sheas Buffalo Theater
(actually the entire theater district)

The Mansion Hotel

Granite Works

The Genesee Block

The Genesee Building (Hyatt)

Squire Mansion

Millionaires Row on Delaware Ave (IBM wanted to get rid of the whole lot or them

Too bad we did not have Tim Tielman around when we needed to save the old Erie County Savings building or Delaware Park when they rammed a highway through it or Humboldt Parkway when they traded it in for a superhighway to the suburbs, or The Larkin Building.

Criticism of Tileman is very misplaced when talking about mismanagement of Buffalo's urban fabric and development progress.

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I've had plenty of disagreements with Tim, but you are absolutely right. He does a tremendous amount of good for this City and I really believe has been a source of high standards and progress for Buffalo.

replied to STEEL
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Same for me

replied to townline
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My criticism of Tielman is in regards to the current Canalside plan. He got what he wanted...the re-earthing of the Commercial Slip.

Now it is time for him to move on to something else.

replied to STEEL
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yeeeah- he "got what he wanted", and he ended up being right. look at the success of the area directly around the Slip, with nothing else there. maybe you should try to understand the mistakes of the past, and listen to what else he has to say.

replied to KenS
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Do you think it was worth 25million?

replied to sin|ill
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do you think its worth investing money to make Buffalo a city worth living in?

replied to johnnywalker
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yea, private money. if he wanted it he should have raised the money himself.

replied to sin|ill
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how much private money went into the infrastructure that allowed the Walden Galleria to be built?

replied to johnnywalker
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All of was privately funded .The Pyramid corporation built the Galleria,then spent 60 million to remodel it in 2006. .

replied to sin|ill
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the infrastructure??? the roads, plumbing, and electric lines too?

replied to johnnywalker
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By the way when was the last time something was there? Maybe 75 years ago?

replied to sin|ill
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Tim Teilman can take posthomous credit for every building that everyone has ever saved! HE is the Jesus of the built environment!

Lets talk some facts about Tim. While he blind-sides processes of development in our city with baseless assements of importance and factless claims of significance we have preservation districts that are so in name only. He should be the champion in city hall to solidify and enforce our existing laws, but instead, he picks and chooses his battles, the ones that will give him the most run, and face time. The HARD preservation battle in this town is having TEETH associated with Buffalos preservation board. We all just witnessed the demolition of another Civil War era house on Franklin St! Shameful! Where was Tim Teilman then? That guy is a publicity whore and a joke!

replied to STEEL
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Tielman IS on the Preservation Board.

replied to Arch
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Allow a kayak and canoe launch in the Inner Harbor

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Isn't there a canoe launch just down the Buffalo River a little ways?

replied to Roy
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Yes. There is also a Kayak rental place on the central warf.

replied to KenS
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Another question... Will the canal where all the pedal boats, row boats and canoes are depicted, go all the way out to the Buffalo River? If not, doesn't it seem like the area you have to navigate will be rather small?


OTOH... Ice skating(also shown in the drawings) down there is a great idea!

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The new canal areas will be individual pools of water and will not connect to the current slip or river.

replied to KenS
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There would be no Erie Canal to speak of in Buffalo if it were not for Tim Tielman.
And that includes Canal Side.

This seems to be a great project. But Tielman is right. Community participation has not been a major part of it. Most of the presentations have been "show and tells" with most of the decisions already made beforehand.

What changes have been made that directly reflect citizen input?

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By that you mean he secured the $300,000,000 in public and private financing necessary to construct the project? get real , It would have been built with or without Tim.

replied to hamp
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I think most people know what I mean.

The city, Albany, and the News were all pushing for a "generic" harbor design. There were no original streets, no canals, a horrible Naval Park, and little public access to the water. Tim fought for a design that incorporated more history. And that's what we're getting.

The money was going to be spent, that wasn't the issue. It was what the Canal Terminus was going to look like. It is Tielman's plan that is getting built.

replied to johnnywalker
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So where can I view a copy of this plan of his you refer to? was it published? put up for public comment?
Was it subjected to an environmental impact statement? Or simply a product of your immagination?

replied to hamp
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Its not a figment of his imagination - apparently you were living under a rock in the first part of this decade. They were going to build a replica of the canal right next to where the actual one was buried, while destroying all of the historic infrastructure that was still there. Prior to that plan, there was even a plan for a simple park on the site, that really had nothing to do with anything. Tim Tielman was directly responsible for changing the course and getting a quality plan built to this point.

I don't know where these old plans are located (there might be renderings in the 2004 masterplan of the previous ideas?). Email the Campaign for Greater Buffalo, I guarantee they could show them to you.

replied to johnnywalker
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Well, Hamp, or townline, or whatever your persona of the moment is (you're not fooing anyone) I did come out from under my Rock a long time ago and found it very liberating. Now you should try it.. You will find it very enlightening . By the way has your bud TT been able to pull Pano's shoe out yet. We see how effective he is when there is no one else in the rowboat. Now that being said I propose a test. Save the Statler. He can ride the magic bus around the square circle and see if he can effect something.

replied to townline
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lol. Imagine that - two people with a similar opinion with some praise for Tielman. They must be the same person! What do you think Hamp? Oh wait, I guess I could just answer that myself!

replied to johnnywalker
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I sure you can and carry on a two way conversation all alone.

replied to townline
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:)

replied to johnnywalker
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By the way , you didn' answere my question, did he get the shoe out yet. ):

replied to townline
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By the way, I'm also the same person as ILuvPitBulls, Steel, NYC, blackrocklifer, paulbuffalo, brownteeth etc.... Cause I frequently agree with them too. This whole posting thing takes a lot of time...

I also used to be Sbrof, cause I usually agreed with him when he used to post, but I forgot the password...

What should my next name be?

replied to johnnywalker
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but here, we are talking about a specific subject, not other subjects. And you still haven't answered the question.

replied to townline
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What question? Your stupid question? Whats ur point?

replied to johnnywalker
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IM the real Sparti . . . er, I mean, townline!

replied to townline
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Hey townline, I think johnnywalker busted you, have you been impersonating blackrocklifer? blackrocklifer is a registered trademark and you are going to have to pay to use my identity. I'll have my people get in touch with yours.

replied to townline
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I can see JWs point. Sometimes the anti-Tielman snarks sound all the same to me.

replied to Blackrocklifer
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Canoes and kayaks yes. We are looking forward to that. But in enclosed, still-water channels WITHIN Canal Side quite separate from the present canal and the lake.
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And, in my anticipating that all of this Canal Side conception will be open to the public year-round, if heat or heating elements are included, those little boats can remain afloat two to four months longer than our summer season allows.
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And gondolas; add a few gondolas for those who do not want to pedal or row...
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After all, it is the nature of Buffalo that Buffalo always will have older residents who are without mortgages who are with money to spend.
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How people get to Canal Side will factor in, but not yet. For now, figure out the product itself...
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*But keep in mind that, as far as where suburbanites will go for fun and how they will get there, they are already thinking about city living.
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How c-o-l-d to state that,in the days of "mules and cargo" there weren't any "real people"! Define 24/7 HARD labor AND short lives--and I do not mean the mules?!
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*Are there any weathies living in the Marine Drive buildings who can simply and easily afford to move away? Nasty people make nasty, experience-deprived statements.
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We have seen kayaks, which included children, in high winds and high waves and the huge wakes of faster moving boats on Lake Erie. We watch those little jobbers go out, out, out of sight on the lake! Some "fun" is scary to observe.
.
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*Switching places.

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think Oak City where they have a similar enclosed canal in the city, and also a pretty neat boat tour of the canal and surrounding urban area. haven't been there in a few years but it was very cool to see, especially from a visitors standpoint.

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Anyone that wants to see the Masiello Plan for the Erie Canal Terminus can contact Tim Tielman directly. I'm sure he will also share with you his counter-proposal, which is now being built.

Regarding tax subsidies. If you drive on any road, you are relying on federal, state and local taxes. If you own a home, and deduct the interest, you are being subsidized by the federal government. Do you ever need to go to the hospital? Subsidized by the federal government.
Have you ever been to HSBC Arena? Subsidized. The Ralph? Subsidized. Drink any water lately? Subsidized.

It's not just poor people and developers that rely on government subsidies. We all do.

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We pay our government to maintain infrastructure, there is a difference between that and a subsidy or handout. Yes, we expect our government to maintain roads, fire departments, county records, water and sanitation, etc. Some areas of the country are more private than WNY is, they rely on private industry to maintain smaller roads, volunteer fire departments, private sanitation pick-up, etc. As a City, we have decided that our government should mainain roads, sewers, water lines, garbage pick-up, etc. These are not subsidies, they are budgeted expenses funded from our tax dollars.

The money given to Ralph Wilson and Tom Galisano is a subsidy. The money used to attract new business and keep old businesses in the area are subsidies. Our infrastructure and government services are not subsidies.

replied to hamp
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"The money was going to be spent, that wasn't the issue. It was what the Canal Terminus was going to look like. It is Tielman's plan that is getting built."

LOL,now its the Masiello plan, R U possibly backtracking a bit?

replied to hamp
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Did anyone ask if CanalSide plans to eventually raze and redevelop the land beneath the Marine Drive Apartments? That would remove a number of obstacles, including an eye sore as bad as the Skyway.

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Enough with these meetings and presentations.
Let's get it done. PLEASE! While we're young!

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I'm hoping for the best, but I'm wondering what the finished product will actually end up looking like. If you remember the plans that were unveiled around the actual canal terminus, there was to be all sorts of interpretive elements. You know what actually got built? The bridge, a boardwalk along the river and a big grassy area. Central wharf building facades, replicas of canal era ships, a museum,etc... They all seem to have vanished in the night.

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If Canalside is successful, those elements can be added later. In this economy, the key is to get the cranes up and get what is on the table built. This isn't the only chance at getting a canal era reconstruction but it may be the only chance at getting a major retail attraction Downtown.

replied to KenS
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It would be interesting to have a list of all the projects that Tieleman has stopped from happening. My sense is that if there are any they are probably parking lots.

Canal Side is bigger and better because of him.

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Too bad we didn't have more obstructionist preservationists in the 60's and 70's when many great old buildings and homes were demolished.

replied to STEEL
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in this town, obstructionist is a badge of honor.

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