Real Estate October 20, 2009 8:30 PM

Canal Side: Fly Through

Canal Side: Fly Through

Canal Side seeks to create a setting for year-round, family-oriented sports, entertainment, cultural and recreational usages.  The main attraction will be a series of water features, event spaces and the development's anchor, Bass Pro.  All of these components are shown in a project fly-through produced by the Erie Canal Harbor Development Corporation team.

Canal Side Video here (Note, large file, may load slowly)

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Bass Pro has been designed to resemble a canal-era warehouse.  The store would include 130,000 square feet of development space, with 121,000 square feet of retail space and 9,000 square feet of restaurant space above a three-level, 532-space parking garage. The building would be 160 feet high at its highest point, the tallest in the Canal Side project, with distinctive signage, and peaked roofs.

 CSfive.pngPedestrians would be able to enter the Bass Pro store either through the primary entrance on the East Canal or from an entrance off Main Street.  In addition, there would be a link to the store through a Water Tube that would pass through the West Canal and to the Canal Side Hall.

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In front of Bass Pro would be street-level water features interpreting the alignment of the Erie Canal and Commercial Slip.  The water features at Canal Side would consist of a street-level canal system and a freshwater aquarium. 

Towpaths along the canals will be for pedestrian use, and will be lined with restaurants and shops, connecting to the many different levels of public and retail environments.  There will be dramatic views and places for relaxing or people watching, as well as opportunities for recreation, cultural immersion, dining and special events.  In the winter the public canals will become a larger central community space dominated by skating rinks, heated canopies, fireplaces, and warming huts. 

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Across from Bass Pro and the canal, a 20,000 sq.ft. cultural facility, likely a children's museum, would be built at grade with Pearl and Scott streets.  Canal Side Hall, a 23,000 sq.ft. public market (above), would be built slightly below grade at the intersection of Pearl Street and Marine Drive.  Canal Side Hall will be topped by a large public events space known as Canal Side Commons.

The Winter Garden would be a three-story, 50,000 sq.ft. facility that would house retail and restaurant uses.   An arcade over a section of the Prime Slip north of Marine Drive would create an indoor atrium that would protect visitors from the seasonal climate changes and would include a Prime Slip water feature.
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The Erie Canal Harbor Development Corporation met today to discuss the on-going process of revitalizing their charge in Buffalo.  First up, the ECHDC board, led by Jordan Levy, discussed the use of the Donovan Building lot for event parking with M... Read More

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Wow! The fly-through looks terrific.

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Wish it included more of the site than just the Bass Pro area. Doesn't look bad but I care more about the greater site than a mall style store.

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I think the entire population of Buffalo is rendered in this fly-through.

I like everything but the Empire Records style CANAL SIDE sign. Looks like a set at Universal Studios.

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Needs a 40 story hotel.

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:)

Looks terrific. Can't wait to see more of the detailed master plan of Canal Side other than just the Family Place/Central Place district.

Very exciting!!!

replied to sonyactivision
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Every new image makes Skyway Side seem more like a lifestyle center (i.e. outdoor mall with residential/office space).

How public will this development actually be? Will anyone be able to walk down these streets and pathways after retail closing time or will folks be escorted off the property by private security guards?

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2 things:

1. Are boats able to fit underneath those walkways of the canal in front of Bass Pro?

2. They better have a HUGE outdoor fireplace near that iceskating rink for the winter time

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All these pretty drawings, big price tags and claims of an explosion of retail jobs that pay a living wage reminds me of promises made with the construction of the Main St pedestrian mall during Jimmy Griffin's reign of terror. BRO should try to compare the Main St plans of the 1980s to Canal Side. These charlatans are selling you a pail of spit and telling you it is expensive champagne.

Unless you already have a secure job that pays a decent wage, this project will do nothing to improve your life.

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ClintonsDitch>"Unless you already have a secure job that pays a decent wage, this project will do nothing to improve your life."

Even for people who already have secure good jobs, how will this project improve their lives?

Good points about comparison to those old artist drawings of the predicted crowds on the Main St pedestrian mall. It has an eerie similarity to those. I'd believe the first few days this is open it will look like this cartoon in terms of how many people are there, but almost every day thereafter it will look pretty empty.

replied to Clitons Ditch
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You will never see a rendering that isnt glossy and overly optimistic. The renderings of rt 33 were lush, green and showed lots of happy people walking about.

The problem I have with comparing ECH to the Main st pedestrian mall is that Main St was a functioning retail district that was disrupted and compromised by light rail construction. ECH is a blank slate and can only get better. Also, The Main st mall was supposed to accomodate a higher volume of people from the rail network. Since the other lines were never built there was nothing to bring people to the pedestrian mall. ECH by comparison is far less ambitious and not dependant on a massive transportation project.

replied to whatever
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oh it absolutely will change Buffalo. It could be enough to get the Buffalo Creek Casino finished. It could be enough to re-open Genessee Street. It could be enough to bring Great Lakes Cruise Ships to the DL&W.

The funny thing about the video and the pictures is that all the people are thin, healthy and well dressed. Remember this is pizza, wing, taco, pasta and pierogi town. Put some thighs, tush and waistlines befitting of a Buffalonian. Tee Hee Hee!

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The people in the above are all stock google sketchup people, this is not customized for buffalo.

replied to Christine
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Good lord. Can't we just have a cleanly designed canal with walkways and retail fronting it?! Do we really have to overstimulate and clutter the site with giant scaffolding signs, covered bridges, permanent buildings in the middle of the water, waterwheels, etc....?

People want to go here to enjoy the waterfront and vibrant streetscapes, not to have 2 million useless pieces of flash shoved in your face.

It kind of feels like playing the game Mousetrap, with all of these ridiculous contraptions and unnecessary functions to do the simple job of catching a mouse. Its like all that stuff is shoved in there just because they can, regardless of whether its necessary.

SIMPLIFY THE SITE (p.s. it would be way cheaper!!!)

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This looks like Main Place Mall 2009.

The space will become old before the new smell wears off. The design does not really allow for adaptive reuse in 20-40 years.

FAIL if you ask me.

I do like how the Bass Pro looks. Too bad they could not just build buildings like that instead of trying to create a space. The skills of the people behind this are not impressive...it is almost as if they are tying too hard to impress.

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. . . .and I actually thought Buffalo was cold 8 months a year!

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Clean it up.

It looks like a theme park. I know the goal was to create a historical era district but the covered bridges, watermills gazeboes... etc. clutter the space.

The canal side hall reminds me of the commons at ub's north campus. The interior space of the commons is a glorified walkway. I am an afraid this space will have the same fate. It would be better purposed as a park at grade with the canal, and then retail fronting the park.

The design is depressing this is our waterfront, or at least the beginning hopefully something better, were settling for second rate project. As a city we pride ourselves with having a great architectural history but what is this, for all we know this project could define this decade’s architecture in buffalo just as the city court, the convention center, the main place mall, and the sea of parking that has defined the past decades. If we as tax payers are going to be fronting the bill for this project then we should be demanding better, the convention center brings in people for special events once or twice a year. And Bass Pro will do the same, but it’s not going to be the pride of this city. We have the potential to create an amazing space in this district and this is not it. Will the next generations look at this project and say this changed the course of the city or will they want to demolish it for another silver bullet project. Or could it be the respected space such as the E.B. Green, Sullivan, FLW, and Richardson… buildings are now?

Fail!

And where are all the Trees?????

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I hate that gazebo too but so what? And how is this project ruining the waterfront? What was your big hope? An excruciatingly detailed historical reconstruction using old photographs, building plans, and oral histories? OK, that will take 25 years and $2 billion. The present site is, shall we say, A HOLE IN THE GROUND. I should think Canalside is a shade better than that!

replied to GTB
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I guess some people haven't heard of faneuil hall. In my dream scenario, we get some vendors from Broadway Market willing to make the move to locate a stand in the Canal Side Hall.

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Yep, hollow out and close the Broadway Market to put the very last nail in the Broadway - Fillmore coffin.

replied to Erik
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We could move the stores from Main Street Williamsville and Elmwood Avenue to the waterfront too. Then Williamsville and Elmwood would look like Clarence Hollow, while the stores would struggle on the waterfront.

Let's be honest here, the waterfront is damn windy and damn cold in the prime shopping months of the year. We are better leaving the stores where they are and focusing on new attractions than just reshuffling the deck to accommodate what we feel is the ghing to focus on now.

replied to Erik
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The whole project seems to have gotten very cluttered in Baltimore style junk. Where is the Buffalo \ History in these images? Besides being in Buffalo... what makes this development of Buffalo.

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What makes any retail development in any area particular to its setting? These are themed attractions, not museums. Colonial Williamsburg just doesn't do enough sales per sq. ft.

replied to sbrof
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Welcome to the new Rainbow Centre, Buffalo NY.

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This is ridiculous! First of all it all looks fancy and cute in the drawings, but in reality it won't look like that. It is insane to think that this would actually happen. They stole bits and pieces of the design from other cities, when I saw this at first glimpse the sign immediately says to me Pike Place fish market in Seattle. There is absolutely nothing unique about any of this. It has no draw to it what so ever, if you wanted to see unique sights from other cities you might as well just go to Vegas and see the world in a night. Buffalo is better than this.
Furthermore although it is all well and good to put retail there, no one is going to go down there to shop, especially just local shops. In order to get people to first come to that area it is important that there are anchor tenants or big name stores that can afford to be there and pay their rent. In addition to providing draw for potential shoppers, what has worked in the past is that you have several big name companies and charge them proportionally more per square foot of retail space to subsidise the rent for the smaller local shops so they can compete more evenly. Bass pro is not an anchor store, it is a specialty store. I have millions of proven development ideas for the Buffalo area, but unfortunately no one will listen to me, we would rather listen to the same people who have done nothing for the past decade almost. But thanks Buffalo you are missing out on opportunity, because with a well planned development the case is really ‘if you build it they will come’. Unfortunatly, this is not one of those developments, it is simply a lego land of what will def. turn into another Buffalo misfortune.

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God forbid Canalside should mimic developments in other cities that are WILDLY SUCCESSFUL. Better to provide an "authentic Buffalo experience" which is what, exactly? Vacant churches? And Bass pro is a huge element because it draws from a wide region. Their new store at Foxboro Mass. is massive and draws from as far away as Quebec. Traditional anchors don't have that same pull. Frankly, given your lack of acumen in this area, I can see why your "millions of proven ideas" fall on deaf ears.

replied to OZperspective
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Im with you on this one. I think some attention to local history should be paid just to keep the place authentic. I dont see any problem with this being overdone, tackey,or mall like. There are plenty of down home, nitty gritty, cool places to explore within the city that are loaded with history. I dont see this place being palatable for a differnt crowd who may like an attraction similar to Pike Place or Baltimores inner harbor.

replied to sonyactivision
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How do you know about my acumen. I could probably name about 500 developments in the past 5 years done in the middle of no where that were far more successful. I have even been included in some of them. There are distinctive attractions to every city, why would we copy them? it is pathetic and it tends to please people of your rather simple nature who do understand development economics and marketing. Foxboro and surrounds is a very different place from Buffalo as there is a small city called Boston near by. Second of all people coming from Quebec sounds awesome, but in reality it is just because it is a closer drive than the ones located in Ontario.

Spend more time doing research and less time insulting people you know nothing about.

replied to sonyactivision
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"Foxboro and surrounds is a very different place from Buffalo as there is a small city called Boston near by."

There's a "small city" near Buffalo. It's called Toronto. And many of them not only hunt and fish, but they are already driving here to enjoy our 'stellar' retail attractions. I'm sorry you're offended, but I must ask, what are those "500 developments in the middle of nowhere" that are so much more successful than Canalside? And referring back to your incredible retail acumen, how were you able to determine the comparative success of a project THAT HAS YET TO BE BUILT?

replied to OZperspective
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My friend, there is already a Bass Pro in Toronto (and future store in Montreal) so if people are dumb enough to cross the border to purchase the same exact product at (using hedging) the same exact price they are stupid. (I am assuming you know what hedging is? It is a certain must these days with the volatile US dollar, but at the same time a strong Canadian dollar helps them in situations like this)
If you want to know an example of a true development in progress, that is now a great success story Google Robina Town Centre located in Queensland, Australia. Robina itself was nothing but a swamp when the original plans were built and now it has become one of Australia’s fastest growing areas. There have been additional developments built around the area to accommodate the influx of people, and the town centre was the anchor of this development. If that isn’t enough for you Google Westfield’s (doubt you have heard of them, you seem to have a major interest in Bass Pro), their business model essentially revolves around developing large scale open-air shopping centres.
Lastly there are quantifiable and abstract ways of reasoning to develop the success of a development, which is one of the many ways in which developers can entice potential investors to buy into a project. There are certain stores in retail which can spell death to smaller retailers, and the stores which surround the anchor store must be ones that can complement the offerings. For example (because you seem to need examples) your average Bass pro shopper is a avid hunter/fishermen (who according to you would prefer to drive a good 2 hours, pay for gas, and pay a toll to buy hunting gear in Buffalo rather than the location close to them). They are coming there for Bass pro alone, not other stores.
It’s unfortunate that you are so close minded about this whole issue, and refuse to even entertain the idea of looking at other (and more recent) examples of MUCH BETTER development. This is why things in Buffalo fail; no one is willing to open their mind. They would rather steal things from other cities that have nothing to do with Buffalo than make it their own. It’s a shame because in the however long they have been talking about this they could have a development up and running.

replied to sonyactivision
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The examples you cite are new builds in undeveloped areas as opposed to the much more complicated task of redeveloping a tricky location in an urban area that has been in decline for over 40 years. Not your fault, there are probably very few if any corollaries in 'OZ'. And shocker! I'm well aware of Westfield and one of their recent developments would be very instructive to the leaders of Buffalo and that is Westfield London which sits on a large reclaimed parcel in West London hard by some rail lines. They created a massive, self-contained island of upscale consumerism that is fully integrated into mass transit and features unbelieveable public spaces...all at the low low price of $3 billion. While Canalside rightly segues into the street grid, it doesn't emphasize the mass transit infrastructure nearly enough. And Because buffalo is not London, the likes of Top Shop, H&M, and Burberry won't be seen here. In fact, in the hands of Westfield, I doubt Canalside would have ever been conceived in the first place. They don't like building in places like Buffalo. BTW, I've seen how retailers and developers attempt to make their shopping centers look "unique" and "characteristic" of the area. Pure venal pastiche.

replied to OZperspective
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That's alot of clutter. Like all the clutter they put on Main Street in the 1980's...

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Does anyone else think its pretty pathetic that the anchor of this project is a Bass Pro Shop??

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I don't think Bass Pro is pathetic, but i do think it's pathetic how many hoops they are jumping through just to get them to locate here. This design is completely contorted to cater to all the wishes of Bass Pro compromising what could be a great project. The plan reeks of desperation.

replied to jolopy
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yeeeeah, little bit. but, it will drag people downtown who would otherwise avoid it altogether. it's an 'urban experience' for them, and they may realize there are many other reasons to come downtown as well (maybe the younger ones might want to live nearby). there is NOTHING as healthy for an urban district as a 'satisfied stranger'.

replied to jolopy
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The last big project in downtown that every politician, business man or woman, and labor union official signed on to was our subway system. At the beginning there was a choice to be made either above ground or below. We chose underground with a tunnel and at the same time San Diego chose an above ground light rail system. I hope that everyone remembers that downtowns regeneration was going to occur when the metro was finished. The areas around the subway stations were going to prosper with new businesses and influence the quality of life for the better around the station area. You can judge for yourself whether the subway has given the city a "better quality of life." The fact is that some of the same people who pushed the subway are now involved in designing and promoting this scheme. We chose to place $500 million in six miles of construction and San Diego chose $100 million in twenty (20) miles of light rail. San Diego has since expanded and what has happened to our system?
The best thing about this project is that it is a version of Reagan's "trickle down economics."
We ask the local homeowner, businessman, independent retail store to both subsidize and then compete against a competitor that will receive special treatment from the government. Independent businesses in the area are going to be struggling to survive in a business climate that forecasts a change in consumerism and saving. We will be robbing Peter to pay Paul. There is not a sane economic forecast that does not talk about an impending retail space crisis. The financial crisis in the country has been blamed in part because large financial institutions were able to control the regulatory agencies and their enforcement. It has been labeled "regulatory capture." I would argue that so much of this project is being decided by "politician capture." When everyone in political power is in agreement you can be sure that the taxpayer is getting taken to the cleaners. Just show me some projects in Buffalo that the public has made successful after the politicians and their friends built it with our tax dollars.

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How about the Buffalo Airport. Nearly a half billion dollars. Exceeded all passenger count expectations in 7 years vs 20. Draws fliers from Toronto, Rochester and PA. Hugely successful, and proof that when something works in Buffalo, we forget about it so we ensure we have enough to complain about.

replied to littleacorn
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The airport is not drawing passengers from outside the area because it's relatively new. It draws passengers because air fares went down when Senator Charles Schumer enticed JetBlue to enter the Buffalo market when the airport was built.

Previously, Buffalo had some of the highest air fares in the country. (I remember $400 one-way fares to NYC.) You really think Torontonians fly out of Buffalo because they like the airport? Toronto has a fabulous airport, but Torontonians hunt for bargains like anyone else.

replied to Prodigal Son
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Ah and Jetblue, Airtran and Southwest would have never considered coming here without the new aiport terminal and facilities. We would still be paying $650 to fly roundtrip to Chicago if not for the investment in the new airport. Complete sucess.

replied to PaulBuffalo
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JetBlue considered Buffalo because it was tied to incentives regarding their home airport at JFK.

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Jetblue would never have come without the new airport. Write it down. It's amazing what the new airport has done for the area. So many more flights and 20+cities non-stop for a city our size - impressive.

replied to PaulBuffalo
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To be fair. Didn't the new airport expand the gates, thus allowing the room for a Jet Blue to come to Buffalo?

I am not sure how many gate were there before 91, but I am pretty sure the old configuration had less that 25 gates, which is what it currently has.

replied to PaulBuffalo
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Good point/example in terms of success...but the airport is in Cheektowaga not Buffalo along with the other Western NY retail giant.

replied to Prodigal Son
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Good Point on the Airport. Not only is the original design and development a great success, but the new security configuration is a BIG WIN in my book.

However, I do not think it is fair to compare the design of the airport to this project. They are not in the same league.

I actually like the big CANAL SIDE sign and think the design of the Bass Pro fits what should be.

But the structure over the canal is poor at best. It has ZERO character. The circular structure looks like the inside of a mall.

replied to Prodigal Son
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@ Paul - of course they come for the prices. And Grass is right - no new airport, no new airlines, no cheaper prices. Just like more canadians won't come for the historic curb finishes, or federal vs canal era architecture - they'll come for the new Bahama Joe and Coach stores. Which will make it wildly successful, from a business point of view. I'm ready to have a business success in Buffalo, not just moral victories.

@ Really - It wasn't just gate numbers (26 now) but overall amenities. But why aren't the two in the same league? It cost $200M in 1997, and $450M overall in the last 10 years. similar scale to me.

replied to Really?
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You think Coach will put a store at Skyway Side? Ain't going to happen.

replied to Prodigal Son
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Why not?

replied to PaulBuffalo
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I don't see the relevance of comparing the airport to Canal Side.

Airline transportation is an important service. Every day of the year over 10,000 people within driving distance of BNIA want to purchase and make use of that service.

replied to Prodigal Son
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@ whatever - littleacorn asked for a single example of the public sector spening money on a big project for the benefit of everyone that actually succeeded. I provided one.

replied to whatever
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prodigal, sorry I overlooked the context of your comment.

But I'm not sure if the airport answers littleacorn's request to "show me some projects in Buffalo that the public has made successful after the politicians and their friends built it with our tax dollars."

Aren't the bonds used to fund building the airport set up so they have to be paid off via airport user fees (mostly paid by airlines to use the airport, maybe also people who park at the airport, food concession contracts, etc.)? If it wasn't set up that way, it should've been.

If it was/is funded by user fees, is that really "built with our tax dollars" in the spirit of how littelacorn asked? And doesn't the airport have revenue surplus to the NFTA even after repaying the bonds? (I'm not asking you to research anything, but maybe somebody knows.)

Either way, I disagree with others then who say the airport is a meaningful comparison to Canal Side. Perhaps you aren't saying it is.

replied to Prodigal Son
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The grand old Aud was publicly financed. Should Buffalo have been better off without it? A city without large scale ammenities might as well be another 5 mile stretch along Transit Rd. And while that unincorporated tax haven model appeals to many who have no ambitions other than to lug home groceries once a week, there are so many others that need to see purposeful progress and experience new things or they will find them elsewhere...like 300,000 former Buffalonians already have. The stakes are high enough that something like this has to happen because while Buffalo dithers, every other city pulls further away.

replied to littleacorn
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sony - Are you saying it's an all-or-nothing matter? We must approve of any and every proposed govt-built amenity (including this Canal Side project) or we must oppose them all (including the Aud, retroactively)? There can't be a yea or nea on a case-by-case basis?

sony>"The stakes are high enough that something like this has to happen because while Buffalo dithers, every other city pulls further away."

Garbage. "Every other city" isn't "pulling away" from Buffalo, and those that may be pulling away aren't doing so due to their govts funding weird projects like Canal Side.

replied to sonyactivision
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Whatever, Just to be fair, lets compare this public work with another one that you were adamamently were in favor of the reconstruction of rt 5.

http://www.ci.buffalo.ny.us/files/1_2_1/BuffaloWaterfront/SouthtownsConnector.pdf

On page two, this pre-construction fluff job from the dot said the section between the skyway and ridge would be 54-63mil. Im guessing that since the dot wasnt an impartial source, and the fact that projects tend to go over budget, the real cost to taxpayers will be much higher. I would argue the project has, and will continue to counter productive impacts on wny ie: acres of underused prime land, pollution, fuel wasting etc.

Even if you dont buy that, the project offers little more than an aesthetic improvements over the functioning roadway it replaced. Best case scenario we spent 60+ mil(i suspect this figure will push 100mil) to have a nicer looking highway. Not much economic development from that.

How can you be passionately in favor of this high cost-low yield public project but be so against the ECH project, which unlike rt 5, offers upside for economic progress?

replied to whatever
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pit - What I was adamant about was to not convert Rt 5 to an at-grade blvd with traffic signals as you and a few others wanted. That would've spent a lot of money to make it worse. I didn't care either way about Higgy's little side parkway on Furmann. If that part was skipped, it would be fine with me.

I don't accept your premise that reconstruction of the elevated limited-access part was done for no good reason. Can you point to any factual basis for that claim? All highways need major work eventually, so if that work wasn't done this year it would have to be eventually.

But for sake of discussion, let's suppose I adamantly favored reconstruction work on Rt 5.

Major roads are very different from Bass Pro and Canal Side. Roads are general purpose for the public good and almost universally accepted as a proper role of govt - unlike funding sporting goods stores, boutique hotels, and huge red "Canal Side" signs.

Many 1000's of residents and companies use highways like Rt 5 hour after hour, day after day for many reasons - going to/from work, doing business, delivering finished goods, transporting raw materials, going to health care, shopping, leisure, and so on. For those reasons and more, highways like that are important to Buffalo's economy. They're funded mainly by gasoline taxes. They're much better uses of taxpayer money than BP and CS.

replied to The Kettle
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Whatever>"Major roads are very different from Bass Pro and Canal Side. Roads are general purpose for the public good and almost universally accepted as a proper role of govt"

Thats not how it works. Plenty is spent by government in the name of economic development all over the country. A lot more than what is being spent on the govt portion of the canal side projects has been spent steering growth to the suburban areas for decades. This has created the problem of abandonment and decline in the inner city which pretty much killed downtowns retail sector. This project is an attempt to steer some of that activity back downtown and reverse the trend of outward growth and inner decay. In that sense it is money well spent.

replied to whatever
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By the way, pitbull, since you mention it - better road maintenance in Buffalo would be a much better use of infrastructure spending instead of Bass Pro and Canal Side.

Off the top of my head, Delaware from around Allen down to City Hall needs work, Elmwood north of Amherst St all the way to Kenmore is a mess, Seneca St needs a lot of work, South Park is bumpy, Grant St is terrible... many more. It's safe to say n, s, e, and w parts of the city in all 9 council districts have major streets with serious need of work that won't happen any year soon. Lots of repairs needed on side streets too, and sidewalks.

For Buffalo's capital project budget there were $98M of requests from the citizen panel to fix city streets, parks, etc. - of which the budget will have only $21M. Over 75% of requested won't happen. http://tinyurl.com/ykk7acz

And in addition to city streets and parks, there's also many more uses of money that would benefit most city residents much better than spending tax money on Bass Pro and Canal Side - more snow plows, better bigger jails, more vacant house demolitions, more equipment for police, etc., etc.

replied to The Kettle
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Whatever> "What I was adamant about was to not convert Rt 5 to an at-grade blvd with traffic signals as you and a few others wanted. That would've spent a lot of money to make it worse"

I guess "worse" depends on your perspective. If you value saving 5min or less on your treck downtown over a dynamic, mixed use blvd, keeping things status quo would be the better option. What isnt debatable is the fact that demolishing 2 roads and rebuilding 1 of them costs less than re building both of them. How is an elevated expressway with bridges, ramps, retaining walls etc more expensive than landscaping?

Whatever>"I don't accept your premise that reconstruction of the elevated limited-access part was done for no good reason. Can you point to any factual basis for that claim?"

You provided it on your second post.

Whatever" For Buffalo's capital project budget there were $98M of requests from the citizen panel to fix city streets, parks, etc. - of which the budget will have only $21M. Over 75% of requested won't happen. http://tinyurl.com/ykk7acz

Ill bet rt 5 is over 98mil when all is said and done which could have gone towards repairs to the local roads. Unlike Rt 5, these roads are required in order to make the neighborhoods they service function. Rt 5 and other urban expressways are more of a luxury than a necesity.

replied to whatever
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oops. I meant to say how is an elevated expressway cheaper than open space?

replied to The Kettle
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We're at an impass. Buffalo's economy and job market would be even much worse off than it is if there wasn't a good network of highways here. That's very important to the local economy in many ways.

You're agruing that Bass Pro and Canal Side are smart uses of this many millions of public taxpayer money instead of using it for more basic real needs across Buffalo. Finally there's something for Higgy, Byron, Chris Collins, and you to all agree on!

replied to The Kettle
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Im saying this project costs a lot less and has more upside than re-building that oft mentioned road. The three blind mice would dissagree with me on that.

I have seen far more public money spent on projects that offered far less than Canalside. Thats all.

replied to whatever
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"Garbage. "Every other city" isn't "pulling away" from Buffalo, and those that may be pulling away aren't doing so due to their govts funding weird projects like Canal Side."

Pittsburgh. Baltimore. Cincinnati. St. Louis. Minneapolis. Indianapolis. Washington DC. Providence. Omaha. Des Moines. Kansas City. On and on and on. This year, the population of Anchorage just exceeded Buffalo's. ANCHORAGE! What more do you need? Then again, you're right: we should satisfy ourselves with the occasional new Rite Aid that opens in a long vacant corner.

replied to whatever
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sony>"This year, the population of Anchorage just exceeded Buffalo's. ANCHORAGE!"

It's difficult to imagine a less relevant comparison than Buffalo in shrinking Upstate NY vs. the largest city in growing, oil-rich Alaska.

sony>"What more do you need?"

I don't need anything, but a coherent logical argument might be nice instead of jumbled rhetoric.

Buffalo's (and Upstate's) negative population trends are nothing to do with lack of a silver bullety downtown Bass Pro and Canal Side.

You've praised Baltimore a lot and now you blame Buffalo's population decline on it not doing things more like Baltimore. I wonder how you align that with the reality that Baltimore is shrinking and between the past two Census counts it dropped by an even bigger percent than Buffalo.

Baltimore dropped over 2% from 2000 to 2007 (651K down to 637K), and that's not a new trend. Between 1990 and 2000, Baltimore dropped by 11.5% (an even bigger drop than Buffalo's negative 10.8% in that decade).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore#Demographics
That larger drop happened there even though Baltimore is an ocean port, is warmer than Buffalo, is in a lower-tax, less business-hostile state, and is near the D.C. area which is growing due to so much federal-related hiring the past bunch of years.
If anything, one could make a superficial argument that Baltimore's waterfront decisions have made it shrink faster than Buffalo. That would be lame too, but at least it would be consistent with reality.

replied to sonyactivision
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I'm not comparing buffalo with "oil rich Anchorage". It's just a sad metric of Buffalo's decline that it has been surpassed in size by an earthquake addled frontier outpost. There are two reasons that Baltimore ( which HASN'T lost half its population since 1950 ) has lost residents. One is the very nasty crime rate in the city that has persisted through boom times and bad times alike. The other is the huge loss of manufacturing jobs. Sparrows Point which at one time employed over 20,000 steelmakers and shipbuilders is being dismantled. Another major employer, USF&G, was bought out and no longer commands the downtown office scene. What Baltimore did right was to rebuild its Inner Harbor with shops and attractions and that has led to BILLIONS in new investments that are hugely responsible for that city NOT losing half of its population. In 1971, Mayor Schaefer was faced with two options: build a freeway right through the Inner Harbor which was filled with blackened, sooted, rotting wharves, or construct the Rouse Company's Marketplace. Do you think he chose wrong? And Having lived in Maryland, I can tell you that the tax climate there is little better than NY's

replied to whatever
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i wish history and the erie canal were front and center, not a gun , bait and tackle store and clutter clutter clutter - what an eyesore .. the waterfront, the sunset are spectacular - this is a ridiculous, cluttered spectacle ..this should be a green space, family oriented museum .. not a carnival

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I was thinking the same thing. If your driving down Franklin looking for the Canal Terminus, it will be hidden behind a six story parking ramp.

replied to gloria
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I agree. Tear down the hideous, outdated Marine Drive Apts. and build a lovely greenspace and a pretty little fake historical cluster complete with a nice museum for old people...and GLISTENING 30 STORY CONDO TOWERS ABOVE.

replied to gloria
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WOW, love it!

Can we get this thing going so I can enjoy it during my younger years?

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I came away from last nights publuc meeting very impressed by the thoughtfulness of the development. Very intriquing development which has way more going for it than Main Place Mall. As a matter of fact the comparison is not even fair because Main Place had an Urban Renewal component and was basically shoved down our collective throats, while this project is what we have been dreaming about for the last 20 years.

I agree though that it is visually messy. Too much stuff happening. I think that an architectural style should be agreed upon, like arch topped windows and red brick veneer. Loose that stupid water wheel, and make all of the bridges the bow-arch style. If you are going to recreate this thing then go all the way! Also i think that aquarium thing is a big waste of money. Spend it on putting and Olde Thyme facade on HSBC...! or connecting to the Cobblestone... or ball park.

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Virtual Insanity! My opinion as well; this design to me is very cluttered. Water Wheel looks out of place, please consider removing. Bridge styles should all be the same style as well. Aqaurium and Water Tube, save your money and possibly spend it on greenery so this doesn't look like a concrete and steel jungle gym. Go for a more period look and feel since that appears under all this clutter to be the central theme. I hope this project takes shape but like many others I am not sure if Bass Pro being the anchor to this district is the right path to take. Only time will tell..

replied to Arch
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Where are the Black people in the drawings?

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Like it but why so many different levels and grades? IMO should all be one level with some observation decks or patios.

@Lester1990 the black people arent in the rendering but trust me they'll be there when it's open

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I thought everyone was a rather sickly beige color. I wasn't sure what race anyone was... I'm glad no one has that color...

replied to assaroni
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had trouble 'facing' the fact that everyone is faceless...

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Wonderful design. Get this built ASAP and give people a reason to head downtown!

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not quite. it depends how you look at where they draw the borders:
Buffalo's area is 52.5 sq miles. Anchorage in sq miles is almost 2,000 sq miles!!!!
the Anchorage 'metro' population is 360,000, while Buffalo is 1.25 million.

How big would Buffalo be if we incorporated all of WNY?!

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Metro Buffalo is only 272,632 people, based on 2000 Census figures, and we know that this number had decreased since then. Anchorage Alaska has 359,180 people (2008 count). The total population of Erie County is 950,265 and shrinking, not sure where you got your 1.25M number, unless you are including all 12 counties west of Rochester.

replied to sin|ill
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no- city is 272,632 - thats different from metro population.
and did you see the size of Anchorage??? 2,000 square miles. compared to Buffalo's 52.5 square miles.
the 1.25 million number is metro population (people served by the city):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_population

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Sorry, I meant the City of Buffalo is 272,632 people as of 2000, it is not under 250,000 per the most recent estimates offered by Business First. I am used to referring to the City of Buffalo as Metro, verus the region. My bad.

So your point is that Buffalo has a higher population density than Anchorage. Have you been to Anchorage? I have and that isn't a surprise at all.

The 1.25 Million must contain a zone of influence that includes Niagara Falls and the western suburbs of Rochester. At what point does the metro population of Rochester and Niagara Falls overlap with the metro population of Buffalo?

replied to sin|ill
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I think the wiki data is based on the Buffalo MSA which is a fixed area not open to interpretation. I think it is Erie + Niagara County.

replied to O'Brien
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yes, my point was that you seemed surprised that Anchorage's population had reached a higher number than Buffalo's, and i was trying to show you that technically, you can fit the state of Rhode Island comfortably within the city borders of Anchorage (RI is 1500 sq miles).

replied to O'Brien
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Did you count all of the morons?

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If we built more places to work, live and entice people to stay, we can then re-grow the population.

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Shhh! Don't say that, people here will think you're crazy!

replied to Lego1981
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This city is always trying to entice people back to it.
How about they take care of the people that they already have, and make the space better for them. If they did that I am sure people from other cities would be drawn in eventually, but if it never happened it would still be a great place.

http://www.shrinkingcities.com/

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