City October 20, 2009 8:30 AM

Buffalo Creek Casino Holds Groundbreaking

Buffalo Creek Casino Holds Groundbreaking
As the skeleton for the Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino grows darker on the horizon, its exposed steel with a shelf-life of six years oxidizing, ground was broken yesterday for the expansion of the temporary casino at Michigan and Perry Streets.  The project is expected to be completed by spring of 2010.

Though construction was halted on the $333 million Buffalo Creek last year due to "economic downturn," according to a Seneca spokesman, the temporary facility continued to operate in the face of a series of lawsuits, upheld by Judge William Skretny, that threatened unsuccessfully to shut them down.

The expansion of the temporary facility will allow for 250 more slot machines, to add to the 200 that are already in place.  According to this Buffalo Rising story 2008 casino revenue-sharing brought $5.2 million to the State of New York, and Mayor Byron Brown projected that a completed Buffalo Creek facility would provide $9 million per year to the City of Buffalo, along with 1,000 new jobs. 
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Oh boy, can o' worms are open again..

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They could use the steel frame on New Year's Eve, to drop a flaming ball of losing lottery tickets.

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oh lets see. you operate a bar illegally, like serving alcohol without a liquor license, you get shut down. you operate a restaurant illegally, by failing your health inspection, you get shut down. but if the past is any guide, you operate a casino illegally, you get hearts & flowers from bro commenters.

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I want to see this Casino get built. Its really close to HSBC and the soon to be Canal Side. It's gonna be another attraction in the area. I can imagine people coming in from out of town to catch a Sabre's game, visit the Canal Side and then hit up the casino. The Senecas are doing it with there own money and it's just going to add more to making the area a destination.

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I agree. The bigger picture is a destination and having options to both locals and tourists. We shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket. As for Vegas, that town blows. It's not worth the hype and it is by no means cheap, everything is an upgrade there, I want no part of that town here personally. One casino is ok for those who wish to partake, but there must be other options for everyone.

replied to Whirlpool 138
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Just got back from Vegas a few days ago, what a freaking fun town! If we could build a 10th of what they have it would be awesome. And yes I know it's not apples to apples, but still a casino would be fantastic. i only wish it wasn't exclusive to Indians. Make it legal to all!

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Exactly. Casinos bring jobs, they bring visitors, they bring ammenities, and they bring jobs. And oh, BTW, they BRING JOBS! Puritanical ideologues bring NOTHING.

replied to DMZ
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Puritanical? Forget the social arguments against this thing, this is a loser economicly.


"BTW, they BRING JOBS!"They take jobs too. Every dime going into that crack shack is at the expense of the local economy.

Contrary to the almost 100% failure rate of casinos as successful economic development tools, people still pin wnys salvation on this business where the house wins and the community loses.

replied to sonyactivision
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Sorta like the Stadium eh? People buy tickets, Ralph gets the money and the county pays the bills, oh wait, the casino will be paying it's own bills and giving a kickback to the state and city.

replied to Armchair MBA
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Trust me Im not crazy about that tax exempt business either.

But did we let the bills create their own sovereign country to exempt themselves from out laws?

replied to onestarmartin
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Do you know how many steady jobs were created in Niagara Falls that weren't there before the casino? Don't try to give me crap about how the casino shut down more jobs then it created either. The couple of crappy bars Niagara Falls had before hand isn't equal to the hundreds of jobs created at the casino.

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Niagara falls, in theory, is a bit different because you are talking about using money new to the economy from tourists. Even that arrangement is messed up because we let them build a 100% self contained complex with 0 spin off benifit to the community.

In Buffalo it is much worse because we are talking about recycling money already in the economy. The Seneca Gaming Corp. has made it clear the Buffalo plant will cater to locals only kinda like a big otb.

replied to Whirlpool 138
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different animal in ontario. there the casinos are owned by the provincial government, which then invests the proceeds back into infrastructure, schools, whatever. here the casinos are owned by a sovereign nation, which kicks back an amount too small to cover policing, addictive gambling, and other social costs. in the us, casinos are for losers, whether it is the gambler or the host city.

replied to Whirlpool 138
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Ohio is on the cusp of legalizing casino gambling. It's getting to the point that like convention centers, every city will have a casino and any city that doesn't will just lose out on the jobs, the revenues, the spinoff business, etc. The moronic casino foes think that Buffaloans will magically stay home and spend their money on model train sets if a casino never gets built here. The horrific truth is that they will continue to drive to the Falls or fly out to Vegas or AC and spend their money there. Here's a nice compromise: let us get this casino and the jobs it creates, and you can have a lovely temperance fountain at the quaint vest pocket park of your choice.

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Sony>"The moronic casino foes..."

The fact that someone doesnt see the benifit to this project that you do does not make them a moron.


Sony>"and you can have a lovely temperance fountain at the quaint vest pocket park of your choice."

Again you keep trying to steer this to the social-religious argument which I for one dont buy. Im open to the idea of a casino if done right. Can you justify any of the SGC casinos on their economic benifit?

The NF one in theory pulls in money from out of towners and gives them a reason to stay. And yes the money spent there translates into jobs which helps the economy. The problem is it is 100% self contained facility that discourages its patrons from visiting other attractions. In exchange for the money they give to Albany and the much smaller share given to NF, they have been granted a monopoly meaning the gambling biz cant grow outside the SNCs walls. In other words a ton of money is being left on the table by letting the SGC build a facility where they reap all of the benifits and is hostile to the local business community.

In Buffalo we have an isolated facility that markets and caters to locals. If only local people patronized this casino every one of those jobs created are at the expense of other businesses that rely on discretionary spending. The 333 million dollar casino that they are planning will again be self contained and draw money away from local businesses and hotels.

The argument that we have to construct these economic drains to prevent huge waves of WNYers from throwing their money away at out of town casinos is just silly. If people are going to vacation in Vegas I doubt they will alter their plans to go to the blue shed instead.

Not to mention casino gambling is illegal in NYS.

replied to sonyactivision
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Sony>"every city will have a casino and any city that doesn't will just lose out on the jobs, the revenues, the spinoff business, etc"

Ive looked at a lot of vegas style casinos and found that pretty much all of them are self contained and generate no spin off business. Urban resort casinos are typically big glizy buildings surrounded by parking lots and economic wasteland.

The closest thing to a non-vegas casino beifiting the local economy was The two in Niagara Falls Ont and Greektown in Detroit. The NF example again has the advantage of profiting from tourists but unlike the SNC it generates spin-off development. A much larger portion of the take goes to the local government and the remainder goes to the provincial govt.(source http://www.usaniagara.com/UploadedFiles/SenecaNiagaraCasinoEconomicImpactJune20.pdf page 64-65)

Every penny gets invested in the community in some way. Thats a far cry from our deals where the house takes the lions share of the cut. In addition the Ontario casinos are situated in a high density setting generating spin-off for the private sector. Our deal lets them build isolated facilities that trap all spin-off within their walls.

In greektown, you have an attempt at creating a more transparent urban friendly casino. It is smaller than the other overdone Detroit gambling halls and is situated in a pretty vibrant pedestrian area. As a result patrons can easliy move inside and out and spread their money to other businesses. This is in sharp contrast to the blue shed and the SNC which are built with their backs turned to the local ecaonomy.

If what is being built in WNY was 1. legal and 2. more like Greektown and Ontario, I wouldnt have a problem with it. Based on what the SGC has built so far we know that we are getting nothing of the sort and should not expect much if any economic benifit.

replied to sonyactivision
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I'm all for NYS renegotiating tribal gaming compacts to distribute more of the profits to the community. Who on earth would be against that? But lacking that initiative from Albany by an idiot governor, I maintain that a PAYROLL trumps nothing and that a 26 story hotel would be a greater benefit to surounding businesses than a VACANT LOT. Let the Senecas build their vision and get financially stable, then renegotiate. That's what's occurred in so many other states and they are not having any trouble with tribal gaming whatsoever. I think the casino foes are the ones scrambling for "justifications", to conceal their true agenda which is to combat the "social ill" of gambling.

replied to Armchair MBA
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Sony>"and that a 26 story hotel would be a greater benefit to surounding businesses than a VACANT LOT"

Tell that to the legit hotel operators who will now have to compete with a tax exempt, gambling subsidized hotel. At least the vacant lot has potential. Neither casino was built on a vacant lot either. The SNC took over the regions largest convention center and the BCC wiped an emerging loft district off the map for good.

Sony>"
Let the Senecas build their vision and get financially stable, then renegotiate. That's what's occurred in so many other states and they are not having any trouble with tribal gaming whatsoever."

Give me some examples. Why would the senecas renegotiate after they have "built their vision"? Local governent would have zero leverage in any negotiating. Now if the mayor said give us a better deal or you aint building anything, you would see some give. I would love to know where this has worked out in favor of the host community.

Here are some communities that are having trouble with tribal gaming:
CNY- http://www.upstate-citizens.org/UCE-Turning-Stone-Statement.htm

California
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/08/30/jnelson.DTL&type=printable

Detroit
http://www.dailypress.com/news/national/bal-te.md.detroit13jan13,0,7517317.story

And of course Niagara Falls
http://www.frankreport.com/author/Articles/NFR/23Sep08.html

replied to sonyactivision
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Sony>"I think the casino foes are the ones scrambling for "justifications", to conceal their true agenda which is to combat the "social ill" of gambling"

Why would anybody do that? Plenty of people have stood up in opposition to this on the basis of the social ills. Others, like myself, find more fault with the one sided distribution of the profits, the lack of oversight and the fact that gambling is illegal.

In contrast I think a lot of the pro casino types cant argue for this thing on economic or legal merits so they try to steer the debate to the easier social side.

replied to sonyactivision
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The "economic merits" are exemplified by the success of so many casinos across the country. The "legal merits" will be determined in a court of law, not here. The casino project was halted by both the courts and the tribe. If the Senecas vacate their claims for this casino, then that will settle the matter. If they are allowed to proceed, then that settles the matter. Anything else?

replied to Armchair MBA
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Sony>"Anything else?"

Yes. I tried posting some other stuff but it never got through.

Sony>"a 26 story hotel would be a greater benefit to surounding businesses than a VACANT LOT"

Tell that to the legit hotel operators who will now have to compete with a tax free, gambling subsidized "26 story hotel". The local restaurants may not like the fact that the senecas will be able to offer dining at their complex for a lot cheaper than they can. The vacant lot looks pretty good by comparison in that it pays taxes, doesnt undermine local businesses and offers potential for redevelopment. Of course neither casino was built on a vacannt lot. SNC displaced the regions largest convention center and BCC wiped an emerging loft district off the map forever.


Sony>"Let the Senecas build their vision and get financially stable, then renegotiate"

Thats backward. Holding up the casino is the best piece of leverage the public has. Once the senecas have "built their vision" they will have no incentive to renegotiate.
Take a look at what was planned early on:
http://urbandesignproject.ap.buffalo.edu/pub/gambling.htm

Looks nice right? A casino situated at the site of our convention center and gambling revenues paying for a new center and a restored Genesee St. Even better the casino has no hotels or restaurats meaning all the nearby businesses would enjoy the spin-off from the activity. Poor oversight and weak "negotiation" ,on the part of the city, took us from this to the crap we have today. If we throw a wrench in their plans, maybe they will have to come back to the table and build somthing better for the community.

replied to sonyactivision
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If hoteliers in Buffalo were so eager to compete, why haven't they invested in their properties or built new product to keep their customers and attract new ones? A Seneca hotel will hopefully jar these caretakers from their sleep and spur MORE competition. Also, other states have successfully renegotiated compacts and I certainly agree that Buffalo and NYS should have driven a harder bargain.

replied to Armchair MBA
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Sony>"If hoteliers in Buffalo were so eager to compete, why haven't they invested in their properties or built new product to keep their customers and attract new ones? A Seneca hotel will hopefully jar these caretakers from their sleep and spur MORE competition."

Thats blaming the victim. How is a legit hotel supposed to compete with an illegal one that doesnt pay taxes and can tank their rates because their opperation is subsidized by the gambling operation. Investing in their properties wont help that.

Sony>" Also, other states have successfully renegotiated compacts"

Give me an example.

Sony>"I certainly agree that Buffalo and NYS should have driven a harder bargain"

Its not to late to change that. We have to pressure the city and state to fight for a deal that is more to our advantage. Just letting them put their crap up now will end the discussion.

replied to sonyactivision
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"Thats blaming the victim. How is a legit hotel supposed to compete with an illegal one that doesnt pay taxes and can tank their rates because their opperation is subsidized by the gambling operation. Investing in their properties wont help that."

By getting the same subsidies that the Hyatt has gotten? Casino hotels are no different than any other hotel. If they do their job well, they succeed. if they don't, then they fall behind. Ever seen a hotel implosion in las Vegas? Their magical "casino-subsidized" powers couldn't help them compete in a world of ever improved properties. And you forget that the Buffalo Creek's location would disadvantage hotel for many visitors until its immediate area gets developed further. many tribes have to upscale their hotels to five star ammenities because they are so remote.

replied to Armchair MBA
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Bad comparison. Hyatt is legal and pays taxes.

replied to sonyactivision
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Sony>" Also, other states have successfully renegotiated compacts"

Give me an example."

California, Arizona, Oregon, New Mexico...for starters. Google it from your easy chair. Most states have the intelligence to write renegotiation clauses into their tribal gaming compacts. If NYS is or was too stupid to do so, is that the Seneca's fault?

replied to Armchair MBA
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Tried to google "casino" and those states you listed and couldnt find anything related to renegotiating an exclusivity contract after the local govt gave away all of its leverage. Maybe Im not typing in the right words so can you be more specific or post a link? There is a lot of gambling industry fluff out there so try to find something objective.

If you cant find anything, just use common sence. If a casino was negaotiating with a local government after their project was complete, why would they come back to the table to negotiate a deal more favorable to the public? That would be like making a bet, losing, and then begging "oh c'mon best out of three". The ability to hold up or stop this project is the only leverage we have. Im not aware of any sunset clause or other limit in their contract with NYS. Once their piece of crap is finished, that will be it.

replied to sonyactivision
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Sony>"The "economic merits" are exemplified by the success of so many casinos across the country"

A casinos success does not mean that the host community succeeds. Our casinos are very profitable but they do not provide much economic benifit to the rest of us. Can you point to any non vegas casinos that have benifited their community in the form of spin-off economic development? I already listed Ontario and Greektown. Can you tell me about any more?

Sony>"The "legal merits" will be determined in a court of law". Must be nice. If I ran an illegal gambling hall the govt would shut it down.

replied to sonyactivision
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"Can you point to any non vegas casinos that have benifited their community in the form of spin-off economic development?"

Shreveport, Biloxi, Tunica Miss. (which actually had some of the highest unemployment and lowest property values in the South before they embraced gambling and now their property values have skyrocketed and employment and tax receipts are very strong ) I won't bother citing examples in communities that were already viable and successful except to say that casinos have not impacted them negatively at all. Casinos have given Shreveport a new skyline and hundreds of jobs in an area that was stagnant before. Casinos were nothing less than transformative for Biloxi and the gulf coast. The Detroit casinos are doing quite well, even with competition right across the river and in an economy that has battered Detroit horribly, may be the only bright spot.

replied to Armchair MBA
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Tell me more about the Biloxi casino. Is casino gambling legal in Mississppi?

From what I understand there are many casinos in that state. Are they all owned by the same monopoly like ours?

What does the local government get from as far as revenue from these casinos?

Does that casino generate economic activity outside its walls?

As far as the 3 casinos in Detroit, save for a mild success @ greektown, the other two are self contained and generate no spin-off. The three combined just suck money out of an already poor economy. We can expect worse in WNY if things continue on their current path.

replied to sonyactivision
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"As far as the 3 casinos in Detroit, save for a mild success @ greektown, the other two are self contained and generate no spin-off. The three combined just suck money out of an already poor economy. We can expect worse in WNY if things continue on their current path."

Aha! The payoff pitch! "Casinos suck money out of an already poor economy"! The evil vice of gambling rears its ugly head!Buffalo is already getting sucked dry...by Niagara Falls Ont.! Do you still want our precious poverty dollars paying into Canada's health care system? And where do you think the Senecas would spend all their money? Switzerland? Tribes often buy other community assets with the proceeds from gaming and they SPEND LOCALLY on whatever their property needs as well as on homes, cars, and all that wonderful crap at Walden Galleria!

replied to Armchair MBA
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Sony>"Aha! The payoff pitch! "Casinos suck money out of an already poor economy"! The evil vice of gambling rears its ugly head!"

Im not sure where you are going with this one. "Evil vice" implies a moral-social-religious argument which would make this the third time you have tried to steer the converation away from economics. "Poor economy" means their is little enough to go around as is not somevstatement on protecting the working classes. People have the choice to gamble and I for one will not get in the way of that. What I am opposed to is letting this industry set up shop without stringent regulations and taxes to protect the publics best interest and improve the economy.

Sony>"Buffalo is already getting sucked dry...by Niagara Falls Ont.! Do you still want our precious poverty dollars paying into Canada's health care system?"

Again, the argument of building a casino to protect the public from predatory casinos out of town is silly. Gambling industry sponsored studys base most of their case on the foolish concept of "recapture" which is telling on the true benifits of casino gambling. If people are going to travel, they are not going to change those plans just to patronize a new local casino. Do you honestly think the people who go through the trouble of waiting at the border to get to Ontario, or catching a flight to vegas are doing so for the sole sake of gambling? Do you think a tacky local casino is going to divert all or most of these people to stay home instead?

Sony>" And where do you think the Senecas would spend all their money? Switzerland? Tribes often buy other community assets with the proceeds from gaming and they SPEND LOCALLY on whatever their property needs as well as on homes, cars, and all that wonderful crap at Walden Galleria!"

Again, if the casino uses local dollars those tribes are just using money moved around from other parts of the economy. You are also leaving out the fact that a casino done right will generate the activity that you mentioned and much more. Lets build somthing on the Ontario model that is centrally located, doesnt unfairly compete with local business, benifits the economy instead of hurting it, and most important, is legal. The garbage we have now is unacceptable and we need to renegotiate.

replied to sonyactivision
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Try googling "Tribal gaming compact renegotiation". Then by all means contact your favorite stooge in Albany and ask why their tribal compact is so poorly written. Just a stab in the dark, but my guess is that the Senecas were interested in a case in Maine, where a tribe moved to retake a huge swath of ancestral land; and that a sweetheart tribal gaming compact shut them up.

replied to Armchair MBA
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Very interesting. I didnt look through all of them but the one I looked at in Cali was to extend an expiring pact. This of course doesnt apply in our neck of the woods since our compact doesnt expire. It also isnt an attempt to get better terms when local govt has given away all of their barganing power.

On contacting State Lawmakers: The ones I have reached out have either told me to f(*k off or spewed more of the jobs jobs jobs crap.

On the Maine case: I think you are right. I for one will not sit by while the local economy is sacraficed for the sake of settling the Grand Island dispute. If they think they can get away with it citizens against casino gaming will be sure to take them to task.

replied to sonyactivision
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'The "legal merits" will be determined in a court of law'. "Must be nice. If I ran an illegal gambling hall the govt would shut it down."

The government is welcome to shut down that "gambling hall". Why haven't they? And If you don't like it, sorry, failing any changes in the current environment, this is all you get.

replied to Armchair MBA
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Then do it right. Legalize them in NY and run an operation like Ontario does. Anything less gives us a lot of the drawbacks with very little of the benefits.

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what he said^

replied to MJ Worthington
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agree

replied to MJ Worthington
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No state which allows bingo, raffles, and runs its own horse-race betting & lotteries has any moral right to condemn or prevent casino gambling.

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Again, the pro side trying to steer the debate to the social-moral side.

replied to Verdan
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