Marine Drive Parking Garage

Hopefully one of the complaints that will be addressed are is in relation to those silly tacked on mansard roof projections.

1 complaint was "The garage blocks my view of the sky way, it's a nice bridge!"

I think that there are some comments that are sillier than others. ;)

I don't want so seem heartless but, the residents of Marine Drive and every other subsidized housing project shouldn't really have too big of a say in this project. They are living in housing that is paid for partially by the govt. So if the govt has bigger and better plans for the property then they should go forward. Regardless, I think they are getting a better deal than they have now. I'm sure every one in Buffalo would love a covered parking space, not to mention the added security, people and jobs moving to the neighborhood. I cant see this as anything other than a win win.

I hope I can be the first one to say this..... TO HELL WITH THE RESIDENTS OF MARINE DRIVE! When you live in subsidized housing you do not have the same rights as someone who owns property. The the same taxpayers that pay part of your housing cost want a parking deck...there should be a parking deck. If you do not like it...MOVE!

The fact that the ECHDC is so concerned with their opinion just shows how backward Buffalo is.

The bond for these was paid off during the 90s. They no can be and SHOULD BE sold. Put a price tag on them and sit back and wait for a bid. With all of the TAXPAYER FUNDED improvements by the ECHDC, this location is worth much more today. The city and the taxpayer could recoup some of that investment by the sale of this public housing project on the edge of the inner harbor.

Well - I missed the meeting but my main concern is whether or not there will be ground floor retail?

Isn't there a hotel fronting this garage? From the rendering it isn't clear that's still part of the plan. What's the story there? Is it a phasing situation? Need more details.

this should no longer be subsidized housing. there's more value to these as market rate or better...in order for the city to grow....this needs to change. and there are plenty of other options in the city.

what could the tenants possible be upset at....they are getting FREE parking and there own PRIVATE entrance.

i'm all for a parking garage here...but i hope it's going to look like more then just a parking garage.

WOW! I though that the design was supposed to have a brick OLDE TYME front on the Harbor side? Not a crappy mansard roof and exposed parking decks? is this just the next installment of a "false bill of goods" that we are going to get from the Erie Canal Harbor Corporation? Seriously check out the Canal Side web page...

IMO there should be NO retail in the parking garage ! Put the retail closer to the canal.Where more people will visit.
I own a home and pay property taxes. I DO NOT get FREE covered parking nor is my home subsidized.
And in true Buffalo fashion ... a New garage will be placed next to those UGLY looking Marine Drive apartments.How about refacing those buildings ?

I would be nice if this was multi use, kinda like the one on the Navy Pier in Chicago. I hope the ECHDC was just humoring the residents of the apartments.

Here's an idea- move Shanghai Red's into the garage, then build something more canal-worthy on that spot...

"They'll have 375 parking spaces, free of charge and covered," Davison says referring to residents of the apartment building.

Covered private parking for free and they're complaining?
SERIOUSLY?!?!?

Why were those apartments built at that location to begin with?
Waterfront eyesore! Knock them down.

Why is Canalside providing even more subsidized amenities to the Marine Drive residents? The City should have demolished the waterfront housing project a long time ago.

This is subsidized municipal housing there shouldn’t be any complaints. Be happy with what you have, I would gladly pay your rent for a waterfront address and now you will have free covered parking. Must be nice.

Why were the projects built on prime waterfront property in the first place? I think the tenants have a right to voice their concerns, but that's about it. People who rent the old fashion way and pay with their own money have hardly a right when construction is going on, why should someone who is already being helped by the government have any more say? I guess that gentrification is a scary thing for people who are comfortable in their government assisted environment.

They will never make everyone happy. Listen to what they have to say and try to appease legitimate concerns and move ahead with this. Its a greater good benefit to the area, helps alleviate the demand and legitimacy of surface parking lots, makes them better development targets. I hope this structured parking facility does rise in the near future. Its surface parking thats the problem downtown.

I say competition is good. Why are we protecting the money interests of other parking lot operators exactly? I say the more commuter parking we can put in vertical structures (ideally more secure structures) the less viable are the surface lots around downtown. Getting more economic growth and jobs downtown to fill in vacant spaces will help fill everyone's parking decks around the city, not avoiding competing with other parking operators interests.

I would just like to say that it really bothers me how people are talking about the residents of the Marine Drive Apartments. I have no idea how much say they will or won't have in this process, or what the certain complaints are, but to speak of them as people with no rights and recommending they be removed is simply cruel. There is an entire community there in those buildings, young and old, including many families, who care about where they live. They have planted gardens in the public space, have neighborhood parties and look out for the other residents. Also, in those buildings, there are offices and a corner store that, at the moment, is the only thing serving the entire harbor area where you can simply pick up a snack or a drink. I'd include The Hatch in that but it is pretty well removed from the Inner Harbor and is more of a sit-down location.

True, sometimes arguments to development are overstated, but a member of any community should have the right to voice their concern, no matter where they stand on the socioeconomic scale. Spend some time down by the water and you'll understand that this community will only benefit what's ahead.

This project should be built on the backs of those residents squatting at Marine Drive. Each floor should have to take two days a week and help build it. Get a little ROI on our money for a change plus it will give a little exercise to individuals who could utilize a little more fresh air.

Maybe Steel could oversee it so it has a former resident/non taxpayer flare to it.

And the sketch of the proposed parking structure took how many seconds to put together? And it blends so well into the architecture of Canalside, LOL.

I think this should be surface parking instead, it would fit in better with the rest of the city that way. *sarcasm*

We have housing projects on our waterfront. Need we really say more? How many other cities have waterfront housing projects as an obstacle to waterfront development? If you expect Canalside to be successful you will need ample parking. Even all you bicycle riding, anti-parking hippies must agree that Canalside will need to draw thos horrible SUV driving suburbanites (and ttheir money) if it is going to prosper.

Great cities don't have copious cheap parking every block or so, they have great walkable streets uninterrupted by surface parking or street-deadening ramps. Come on, people, you know what I'm talking about, you all go to Toronto every chance you get even though parking is scarce and pricey.

hello - yoo hoo .. attention .. marine drive is NOT subsidized housing.... are you going to take in the elderly, the disabled when you know their homes down??

sorry, i meant when you knock their homes down.. i think it is admirable for people who go downtown a few times per year to advocate for the destruction of the homes of approx 1000 people ,so you can have a convenient parking spot. love how buffalo is the city of good neighbors - NOT

You all are so funny. If you did your homework you would know that 1.) the bonds are not yet paid off 2.)As much as you would like to think so, Marine Drive is not subsidized by anyone and the residents do not determine the apartment rents. 3.) In case you all don't realize it, Marine Drive is also in the Empire Zone..so much for putting it on the tax rolls. 4.)Marine Drive was here long before it became fashionable to live down here. 5.) What do you suppose people will do down here in the wonderful Buffalo winters? Do you know how hard the wind blows here? Come on down! 6.) No matter how it all turns out, I still maintain that everyone has a right to be heard. People..you cannot hate someone into disappearing. Don't you think if Marine Drive could have been sold legally..it would have been sold by now. Laws have to be changed first...thank God there is that mess in Albany.Once they straighten that mess out, maybe then they will deal with Marine Drive. Maybe after the Peace Bridge is built. Focus people, focus.

"In 1951, the Buffalo Municipal Housing Authority built Dante Place, a seven building complex overlooking the Buffalo River. The funds used to build this complex came from the State of New York, with the stipulation that the buildings be used to provide affordable housing for low income persons. In the 1960's, a tenant association was formed to manage the properties. A new, nonprofit professional property management group - Erie Regional HDC started providing professional building management in 2007. The buildings are on a very attractive location for residents who want to enjoy our beautiful waterfront at a reasonable rent."

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_b6km3o1N3jA/SHenTAaPW6I/AAAAAAAAAC4/X04CKrEsq9k/s1600-h/MARINE+DRIVE+AD.JPG

Can someone explain how this is not subsidized housing? Government built with way below market rate rents. Is the claim that the Erie Regional HDC receives no funds for this property from local or state government agencies? Are people arguing over semantics for 'subsidized'? I don't get it.

If pollution from cars is the problem the obvious solution is to have no parking there at all including the current parking lot

greater good versus argument. include transient resident in that argument. if all else fails, how bout the architectural aesthetic piece. those buildings look like poop mixed with brick.

my dad lived on busti in the 50's-60's along with tons of other immigrants. had to move to northbuff when the city and state had genius plans and eminent domain took their homes. i'd be pretty pissed since that area doesn't have much to offer. but if there was a skyscraper or financial hub or lucrative residential building or some other form of contributive infrastructure, i'm sure he'd get over it a bit easier.

I think everybody should have the opportunity to live on the waterfront no matter their rent payments or what ever. BUT, these folks are just being unreasonable. They get free covered parking. Think about the benefits. No snow removal during blusstery days, keeping a good secure parking sapce from predators lioke car poppers and the like, keeping your car from the elements of weather and other stuff. Bird in the hand versis two in the bush.

MyBelle - let's get back to the chief complaint. What is the main concern of residents? It sounds like the issue is with potential pollution. If the new garage is designed in a way that does not create any pollution, would you then support the garage?

Same backseat architect whiners - if you have issues with the design, download the proposed design guidelines at www.eriecanalharbor.com (click on canalside logo, upper right side) and GO TO THE PUBLIC MEETINGS AND SPEAK UP! So easy to sit back and be critical, shielded by internet anonymity. Otherwise, you're all a bunch of keyboard cowards.

On the Marine Drive apartments issue - they are Middle Income Housing Developments supervised by New York State's Division of Housing and Community Renewal. They DO NOT RECEIVE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES. The maximum starting income level for a 1 person, 1 bedroom apartment is $37,500, an income which I suspect many posters here on BR would qualify for.

The griping about Marine Drive being subsidized is hilarious; the entire "Canalside" boondoggle IS SUBSIDIZED. It's all welfare, taken out of your taxes and electric bills.

I think it is clear why there is a fuss from the current residents.

These units are going to get a parking deck and are located in an area that has some serious improvement happening. The more development that happens, the more value this property holds.

Right now, the residents of the Marine Drive complex know they have a VERY GOOD deal at the expense of the taxpayer. They are trying to prevent increased property value.

The reason is, a developer could come in and purchase this property and make some upgrades in under a 2 year period and sell these units for a large profit.

Even if the developer did not want to sell, these units could get some upgrades and be rented for 2x-3x they go for with the taxpayer assistance and the developer could STILL turn a profit.

The less the taxpayer knows about the opportunity for this project to produce REVENUE, the less likely they are to be sold.

If Buffalo eventually has a real election for Mayor, the sale of the Marine Drive complex could easily become an issue. One that either candidate would have trouble in convincing the taxpayer that it is a good idea to continue to subsidize waterfront living.

Just playing devil's advocate here:

-Everyone is talking about this big demand for waterfront housing that isn't subsidized and primarily for low-income individuals. There are vacancies in the developments that currently exist. I can only assume that the reason for this is that they are cost-prohibitive for a majority of would-be residents. Commence complaining that there aren't realistic options for waterfront living for those people.

-Developers haven't built waterfront housing at lower price points because per-unit construction costs would exceed income from rent or sale of the units.

-An existing waterfront project exists that was (perhaps) 100% subsidized when originally built. People claim it should be sold to a private developer, who can then moderately rehab it and sell off the units. Presumably, the rehab would be cheaper than new construction for the developer, so developer is able to offer lower prices. These units would be targeted to those who can't afford the currently existing waterfront housing.

Still sounds like the dreaded subsidized housing to me - just a different demographic is benefitting from it.

tenants obviously should be allowed to be part of the process, but they dont have as large of a stake as property owners.

the arguement that the parking ramp will generate toxic fumes and such doesn't fly here. your next to a thruway. you already see 140,000 PER DAY. and many of the cars in that ramp....ARE YOURS.

i dont believe that the city should be in the real estate business. but if they are going to be then i want them looking out for the greater good of the ALL citizens.

Today and in the near future the value of this property is far greater then its current use. we can sell this for a premium and turn it into market rate apts or condos.

there are plenty of other affordable options offered by the bmha / city. and selling this will help us furth subsidize the bmha program.

My Aunt lived here until she passed in 2007 and she used to say she lived in a rent controlled apartment.

If the Marine Drive Apartments were emptied of tenants today, would a developer seriously take on the task of renovating the institutional-style exterior and interior tomorrow without significant public subsidies? After public and private investment, wouldn't market rate rents rise to a level that might discourage people from moving into the complex? (Look how many people on BRO complain about the prices of living downtown.)

These apartments are not standing in the way of development on the waterfront. This ugly parking structure and a half-baked development called Canal Side will do much more harm if design changes are not executed.

How many other cities have subsidized, low-income housing with waterfront views?

Maybe it was mentioned in here but didn't the Riverside councilman once propose that the Marine Drive apartments should be sold. I thought that was one of his original statements when he first ran for office. Maybe I am mistaken about the time of his statement but if he did believe in selling why hasn't pursued that plan?
Secondly, does anyone question the logic of the city building, for subsidized apartment renters, free parking ramps. If anyone takes a look at the city budget look at the millions of dollars that homeowners and renters of privately owned apartments pay in parking tickets every year. The homeowners and renters in these dwellings pay property taxes, water bills, user fees, and sewer rents and if they are unlucky enough to live in a place without a driveway (very common in Buffalo) then they are taken advantage of by the parking enforcement. The fines are large to begin with and then double or more in ten days. The elected city leaders have no sympathy for these residents, "Why". If Marine Drive residents want to park in the ramps they should pay market rates just like the rest of us.

It is hard to tell who is more foolish; our elected leaders or the residents who keep voting them in.

I doubt anyone would buy the Marine Drive Apts. A good test of turning a public housing project private was Tishman Speyer's purchase of Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village in New York. Tishman paid $5.4 billion for them at the height of the market. Now, they are worth an estimated $3.2 billion and Tishman is close to defaulting on the loans. They raised rents and did some renovations but never kept any of their promises. As a result of this fiasco, other proposed sales like it in NYC have halted and this in a market with the highest rents in the US. Nobody would want the Marine Drive as it is except for the land beneath it. And other parcels exist not too far away. But I would wonder too if I was a resident there, why this ramp is being constructed now, just as the Canal Side development begins. Could the City be thinking future sale? That free parking is a nice "extra". Ideally, the complex should go co-op, but Many residents might not have the money to buy their apts.

(Stuy Town / Cooper Village was built and owned by Metropolitan Life; it was never public housing )

Not that your observations aren't interesting but most of your opinions are just hypotheses. I'll just let all of you experts duke it out among yourselves. It will be interesting as to how it all plays out. How much money or education either you or I have is not going to matter when the "powers that be" make their decisions. So, in light of that fact,I bid you all "a bientot".