Wingate: Approved at a Lesser Aesthetic Standard?
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For This week's podcast, we literally shanghaied Buffalo Public School Superintendent Dr. James Williams on his way from an event in Allen Hall, with just a half hour to get to his Dr.'s appointment. The clincher was when I told him he'd onl... Read More
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Leave a commentagreed. it lacks.... something. i understand the height restrictions. but why? whats the problem with having a building higher than 4 stories? the waterfront is pretty big. it's not blocking the entire city a view of the water. is that the spot for the money sunsets?
I thought the green was the best. The chosen color scheme is nasty, but that fact that the city council is picking out colors for buildings is most frightening.
I agree with Steel. The green looks best...
Still, can the Ciminelli design be built as well, as Paladino suggested? Height restrictions were not a problem until there was a random order it cannot be built. I'd like to see the competition...
I thought the same thing, why are board members/city councilman picking colors?
Total and complete disaster. Pitts, Schwarts and Curran Hoyt (absent today) should be run out of town. And fast! Unbelievable!
The design has improved. It is no longer fit only for a thruway exit ramp. It is now also fit for a suburban office park.
Its not the design is so bad. Its that its such a bad place to put a bad design. I could deal with it if it wasn't right on the waterfront. But why did we pick there to put the worst "new" buildings in Buffalo?
And I have to admit, I am surprised by BRO's editorial preference for the least progressive option.
Craptastic!! It hasn't even been built yet and it's already fit for demolition!
green was best. Agree with Steel on both counts.
sonyactivision, I agree with you.
This place belongs on the front lawn of either Pitts, Schwarts or Curran Hoyt (absent today). Unbelievable!
I don't get it at all, sure we are a city proud of it's architectural history, but the Pitt project looks like an echo of one of the many factories that can be found in any working neighborhood across the city, the now updated Larkin Co. being the most obvious example. Preservation is one thing, new builds another.... a new building should have some bearing on current trends and available technology as seen in the Ciminelli project. Maybe Mr. Ciminelli should have a crack at losing a few stories to comply. I am sure when the Prudential building , Kleinhans Music Hall or any of the Wright houses were built, there wasn't a roomful of naysayers bickering about color choice and building height, and we seem to have a nice collection of buildings that reflect the time in which they were built.
Thousands in dollars worth of design work? HA- A pallette board and photoshopped images! Comical. Will they be press-on bricks to boot? Bring on the lawsuit Ciminelli and Waterfront Villagers!!!
The Ciminelli concept is exactly what the waterfront deserves. And this thing is actually being considered?
Unbelievable!
This is horrendous, and a further vision of the area should be considered before a decision like this is made. A city can really be defined by what its waterfront looks like. Now, here's a nice waterfront development:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2394/1682969096_60bc3077e0.jpg?v=0
It looks like a partially completed duplicate of the Alling & Cory building. I congratulate Mr. Pitts for his skill on getting an even duller design approved. Three cheers for more mediocrity in Buffalo!
P.S. I'm waiting for Chris Hawley to put a positive spin on this very sad story.
Not all buildings can be landmarks. I don't see why the need to equate every project that isn't a landmark with Buffalo "mediocrity". Cities are a mix of good and bad buildings.
There are people all over this city doing great things, that are far from mediocre.
If you want to see first rate stuff, go down and see what they're doing at the canal.
Or go check out the Olmsted Parks master plan. The Martin House and Greycliff. These are not mediocre projects.
Either is the UB Downtown Campus, or the Medical campus.
The Buffalo Zoo additions, the airport, the billion dollar Buffalo Public Schools project. These are not mediocre. Neither is Burchfield Penney or Babeville, or the new Federal Courthouse. Not mediocre.
Or Artspace or the Packard Building, or the Genessee Gateway, or Granite Works. First rate. The Olmsted-Richardson Complex, Buff State Science Center, UB School of Pharmacy-Main Street.
First rate stuff is happening.
Hamp, I think you and I would find common ground on many issues. I agree with what you say regarding the Martin complex and Greycliff, but they are renovations of existing and critically-acclaimed designs from a previous era. Almost all of the other buildings you mention are existing structures, too.
The Federal Courthouse is a good design, but nothing groundbreaking. I'll put UB and the medical campus in the same category. The Burchfield-Penney is a lumbering design that tries to do too many things and falls short. Competent stuff is happening, yes, but the Mori visitor center is the only building that has garnered real attention. Buffalo developers are afraid of using great architects (as they did in previous generations) and, in the case of the Wingate, the skills of Mr. Zyscovich have been constrained. He obviously has more talent than the building presented in this article.
Think of how daring Kleinhan's Music Hall was for its time. It's a landmark structure and it was seen as such upon its opening. It garnered world-wide acclaim. Even if a developer had the cash, I don't think a Kleinhan's would get built in Buffalo today because they don't seek out great architects. When will Buffalo raise the bar again?
This looks like the Buffalo News' building, a parking ramp, and the Erie County Holding Center all wrapped into one. The project was flawed from the beginning. The RFP should be reissued and the design guidelines should be reevaluated. Don't stick us with this turd on our waterfront, please.
Hahaha, that sums it up pretty well, queenseyes. Seriously though, this is a joke.
I had to laugh scrolling down looking at all the color changes. This is absolutely ridiculous, but hilarious that even with all the great developments going on in the city, something like this pops up and is actually being considered? Seriously? I'm telling you right now, there is no way this hotel will be built. Get ready to watch the community rebellion, it won't be pretty, but it's worth it.
To me, it looks like the Adam's Mark and Buffalo News buildings had an ugly child and added a little splash of color.
I'm not impressed. Buffalo deserves better! With the architectural legacy this city has the chosen design is sub par. For inspiration they (potential developer/architect) should look at well done conversions such as Avant and New Era.
The really creepy aspect of this whole thing is that this will by far be the best building in the neighborhood.
hey Fred, it would be nice if they could pull it together
I'd like to be able to support Pitts' project, but this is not what should be built on the waterfront. If it was a factory, I would say it is beautiful! The color choice is the worst of all.
It's hideous! It looks like a design from the 70s or 80s! How could this be chosen over Ciminelli's!?!
This is awfull!
Come on you know something so corupt is going on here. How could anyone vote yes for this project without laughing or cringing without a large check in their pocket from Pitts.
At least this matches the marine dr apts!
The design stinks...but even worst, is how this whole issue has been dealt with since the beginning. Height restrictions? The amount of public handout given to Pitts group - and yet Ciminelli asks for little or nothing? The amount of tax revenue created by the Ciminelli building over the Pitts building? The way the Mayor railroaded this thing through? The design is really the last thing that turns my stomach...I've been sick about it since the first day Pitts was handed the keys to the property. Crazy.
A city that pretty much gets to start from scatch on their waterfront, and this is what they come up with as the hotel. Laughable and a crying shame.
The contrasting colors was the one thing that made this building interesting. Now it is dull and drab.
Sorry to disappoint you, Paul. How can one put a positive spin on beige? It's not an improvement.
You've been such a booster, so you must really be disappointed. It's a sad day for all of us, even those of us far away, who want to see Buffalo build well. I feel bad for Mr. Zyscovich, too. I can't imagine that he's proud to have his name associated with this project.
All of this nonsense to support Shanghai Red's. It's really mind boggling.
This is the exact reason why the city needs a revolution in politics. You have mayors deciding what style of development is better on a block and NOT their own planners. You have politically appointed commissioners deciding what is safe and acceptable development procedures instead of the inspectors. You have council members picking colors and aesthetics over architect \ designers.
Whats next. Politicians deciding the structural viability of 10" wide flange steel over 8"...........
Why are they MAKING THESE DECISIONS INSTEAD OF TRAINED PROFESSIONALS!!! and WHY do we assume or allow them to do this. Does Brown have a degree in interior design or architecture, or urban planning... NO... stop trying to do someone else's job because it only makes a mess of things. I think Locurto has an urban planning degree. But as far as I know he might be the only one actually trained and educated to know what really is best in most of these instances or committees...
Elena, in spite of the unfortunate news contained in the article, thank you for laying it out so well with the photos. It really helped this reader get a better sense of the circumstances.
Thanks.
I agree that the PROCESS was flawed from the beginning. Where is the competition or and proper evaluation of design...
Welcome to the Town of Amherst. Suburban style in the city....DEAD WRONG!
Joshua, I think it was you that said, in a comment to another article, that you know local politicians read BRO. I hope that's true because I would like to tell every politician involved in this decision: you all blew it!
Yes, PaulBuffalo, and we all will remember this come election time.
Shame on ALL who are involved in this project. Starting with Mayor Brown - Mr. have podium will travel.
The Ciminelli concept will complement the beauty of Buffalo's architectural history. By doing so it will set the standard for what Buffalo will become.
It looks like a picture of an ordinary building with the outer perimeter of a parking ramp superimposed over the first picture.
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Then again, it also resembles a parking ramp with false walls and windows so as to be asthetically pleasing for the gentrified--on the off chance that a wealthy will be parking any of his private sets of wheels!
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Why would city government choose blue? Because, while...
Red is hectic and
Green is soothing,
Blue relieves stress.
Hmmm. If the color choices are red, green, beige and gray, then that sixth picture scrolling down must be grey! It looks blue--I checked with others and it looks blue to them too--so, then, would that grey be toxic-elements-in-the-air- blue?
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Have a happy first day of Summer, everyone!
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Gone Fishin'.
I don't like the beige - this is why I own a Mac - but Zycovich is not delivering a suburban proposal. It is a good urban design that will be a decent first piece in an Erie Basin build-out. I do wonder what leeway Zyscovich will have to add more personality to the design without being subjected to additional reviews. I don't many people would disagree the design could use a little extra spark.
It won't be a good first design in the built out of Erie street because it goes against all of what the City's Masterplan has put forth for the area.
Where is Erie Street in concert with this blg proposal... Across a huge parking lot like Shanghai Reds. Where is the street from, mixed use aspect (parking + hotel doesn't count), where is the retail, the life, the connections.
It is a bland building behind a bland parking lot. Same as Shanghai Red's. It does nothing to further the development of the Marina area into a lively waterfront district. It only reinforces a the suburban style of site planning.
From the MP:
"Create a continuous public realm by expanding the urban grid and
promoting ground floor commercial development;"
"Minimize parking in surface lots by allowing on-street parking and promoting development of structured parking in mixed-use buildings;"
"Re-establish Ellicott radial and grid plan and use the historic Erie Street right-of-way from Main Street to the water’s edge;"
"Maintain urban proportions through zero-lot line development and
appropriate ROW to building height relationships."
http://urbandesignproject.ap.buffalo.edu/projects/wci/QCW_Volume1_Strategy.pdf
Maybe the mayor, who approved this project with his hand picked development board should have actually READ the city's plan.... because THIS project does NONE of the above statements right out of the plan. Shanghai Reds was a mistake... a it set the precedent to justify this.. mistake... which will legally justify the... next mistake until we have nothing but parking lots of isolated buildings and a dead, uninviting district. Have you walked down NFB lately... would it somehow be nice because of this design instead of big box designs? Nope... it all comes down to site planning and this FAILS miserably.
Requiring renderings in the grey & snow of winter might highlight the error of the cold colors they chose.
BTW I don't want tall buildings blocking the water view. Quote from Mr. Jaworski on this site a few days ago: "The topography needs to be respected in that the waterfront should be looked at as a valley, with the city center being the highest peak." The city center would be City Hall or somewhere between HSBC and the Electric Tower.
Please go, or live as I did, to Chicago to understand the value of stepping back high rise development from the water's edge. Where they mistakenly didn't step back,(East Lake Shore Drive to Ontario) the waterfront is people-dead (much commercial use, but not pedestrians).
Where buildings are set back (most of it), thousands, if not millions of more residents see the shoreline either from the road (Lake Shore Drive) or their residences. Thus establishing Chicago's identity as a lakefront city in the viewers' eyes.
I know it has already been stated, but these color changes are just like putting lipstick on a pig. The design of this building is an abomination. It is incredibly distasteful to sacrifice prime waterfront real-estate for what appears to be urban sprawl within city limits.
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The lack of foresight in this city is truly disgusting. Granted, we have made some great strides towards a more urban atmosphere, but we still have a long way to go. I'm sure most of you will agree that the development of this hotel as proposed is just adding insult to injury rather than making progress.
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Maybe someone can explain why there is such a strict height restriction? I mean, I get the rationale behind having *a* height restriction, but why must it be so low? Heck, the section 8 buildings right near the naval park are 12 stories! Granted, this isn't the only flaw in the design of the hotel, but it is certainly limiting us from having a more aesthetically pleasing design.
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Every building that goes up within our city limits should be an architectural masterpiece and we should not allow ourselves to settle for less. I understand that not every building can be as majestic as the Ellicott Sq building, but we should at least make an effort! The Avant building was a huge step... lets keep going! The Wingate design looks like it was sitting in a pile of unused plans intended for Amherst, just waiting to be shoe-horned into another locale.
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We have a true gift in the sense that we have the ability to define the fate of our city right now! Real estate is dirt cheap and there is plenty of land up for grabs. Rather than settle with these pragmatic designs, let's make sure we do it RIGHT this time around and potentially be another success story.
Why not something creative either nautical theme or more eye catching...??
We have EVERY option and this junk is being considered.
UNBELIEVABLE!
This is GARBAGE. What a shame for the City of Buffalo.
Wonderful examples, buffaluv! I do wish and hope Zyscovich will have the opportunity upgrade his design (fundamentally, the site plan for the structure and the starting point in design is excellent already) to add some nautical flare. This is precisely the kind of feedback they should be getting.
Chris, what's the incentive for Mr. Zyscovich to do anything more when the scheme is only getting duller? Why wasn't the design improved for yesterday's meeting? You see hope where the rest of us see the same old Buffalo shuffle.
The Common Council still has to weigh in.
Oh no, are they looking at color swatches, too? That's just great. :)
[ECB as a citizen here] Zyscovich clearly doesn't "need" this project, and depending on his personality, he's either viewing it as a very large and welcome challenge or the worst thing he's ever been involved with. He has great integrity, but he's not the driving force. He's a man who answered an assignment, and I can assure you he did the eye roll when told of "color" matters (though this sort of thing is hard to see over the phone).
I'm working on getting actual pictures of the first color choices now so that people can see texture, sheen and truer tones. In terms of concessions, if this is going through, there needs to be a push to make it the best it can be. What at first seemed poor choices are starting to look better in the face of the request for "buff" by a board member. Buff and pale grey, the color of Dryvit; please deliver us from it.
The crux of this is that the very people who drove the scheme to its dullest depths have stepped back. The board needs to be appealed to. When we lack taste-makers, maybe the best place to start is with the architect (who, let's face it, was not given carte blanche on the project). When I hear about board members talking about "matching" the existing buildings, it makes me very nervous. There stands nothing worth matching right now. I wonder: How do they get dressed in the morning? Garanimals?
Where is our local government concerning this matter? They should be ALL OVER THIS!
Sigh.
I had hoped that the Zyscovich hotel proposal I saw was, as I said, a version that would be toned up rather than toned down, but it looks like, through the latest updates, it’s just going to get a new coat of ugly paint.
Not only that, but I had felt that the building really needed more transparency. The idea of the outside “cutout” technique was familiar to me and interesting, it was not really well executed. That technique is used here in Amsterdam quite often on residential buildings where it breaks up the view from inside to outside and creates random privacy from outside to inside- but here it really seems to do neither, if it remains as it is.
Furthermore, I had also mentioned that the box-like structure needed to be chopped up and shifted around a bit-imagine a 4 story grid of blocks knocked slightly askew- to create a sense of playfulness and rhythm. That looks like it might not get done either. Further, the essentially flat top, with no overhangs or details to break it up is boring. This may be the element that earns the “parking ramp” label- although I disagree with so simple an analysis.
As one experienced in these sorts of things, I was surprised that the detail of outside materials, albeit an important one, was being discussed so early and by people who know likely little or nothing of what their deciding on or what their options are beyond what is presented. It seems irresponsible. Are these people architects or designers, busy with city planning and aesthetics regularly, up to date on global trends in architecture and materials? If not, they should be. It’s the kind of experience that such a decision-making “board” should collectively have when their decisions will influence the future and visual makeup of an important and storied waterfront.
I agree with Elena when considering the first materials- glazed brick, inherently reflective, matte, solid outer structure, glass entry and/or atrium… would have added a certain lightness that, combined with the above adjustments would result in a fresh and transparent building amidst the red brick fortresses that would be its neighbors.
Not only that, the brick choices seem so limited from what I can see. There are literally 100s of choices in finish, thickness, material and size when it comes to bricks- why these? And why the glazing- a decidedly retro finish? I’m puzzled. Why the very busy glass structure at the entrance? Clearly scene as an “anchor” for the jumping cutouts- couldn’t this be more random as well? And the logo on the side of the uppermost point of the building? The argument is likely so that visitors can see the structure from afar- but I am so over that form of exterior signage cluttering our visual landscape. Light the building beautifully (like the French do to theirs), chose the proper materials, and the building will speak for itself. Of course you need a sign, but as someone who has seen the buildings of Amsterdam’s Rokin marred by advertising and neon, please consider other options.
Lastly, why only Zyscovich? I was immediately struck by why such a project, clearly important to Buffalo’s waterfront, had only invited two (officially one) firms to make a proposal. Zyscovich is certainly an experienced urban architect- but why not a broader invitation? I could assemble a Dutch team who would love to have a go at this project with excellent results, not to mention what sort of brilliant ideas a limited competition would garner. Was it a question of money? Politics? Timing? Favors?
There is so much to address on this project, mixed use possibilities being one, but ultimately it’s about Wingate and what they feel will both fit their brief and slip through the approval process. As an Amsterdammer by place and a Buffalonian by heart I can only hope the right building gets built and that it’s not too late. I can imagine it gets tiring to always come up with excuses down the road.
We've asked the same questions here. Buffalo has yet to attempt a design competition for any of its projects. Thank you for raising additional concerns/ideas.
Elena, what I read is more talk of colors and surfaces, when the building itself, should it stay as it is presented, is just "above average". Is it your impression that Zyscovich will tweak the structure or will it remain the same and we can just hope that choosing the right "colors" will save the day? I hope not.
My take: I got the impression that if his clients said "tweak," he'd jump to it. I also got the impression that if this is dumbed down anymore, he might jump ship.
This link shows the Ciminelli proposal - and it's stunning!
http://archives.buffalorising.com/story/a_tale_of_two_projects
And yet all you people will sweepingly reelect Byron Brown. And then we wonder why were stuck in mediocrity. Shame and a sham
Not a chance. By the way, I did not vote for Brown in the first place.
I hope this opens voters eyes.
I also did not vote for Brown in the first place. I saw his complete lack of vision and desire to control things outside of his knowledge base (AKAa typical politician) years ago. But alas.
This whole process is flawed from the beginning and it is amazing that a project can go this long, on such an important site only to be handed over to a political friend. How is this legal?!?
Yet another reason to disolve the City and merge with the County.
What a sad, miserable little embarassment for our waterfront. Truly a dreary illusion for "The City of no illusions".
It seems there is alot of resistance against the design of this waterfront hotel. I dont like the design but I like the idea of brick(not painted brick) and steel. That is what this city was founded and built on. I think we need to look at the buildings within the Cobblestone District(not the ones that have been rehabilitated) and design off that structure. Thats what Buffalo is. What it was. What is should and can be.
I took a look at the Ciminelli Proposal. Interesting...provocative...yet nothing close to resembling Buffalo's architecture. I don't like the colors and design of the Pitts proposal either. I think we need to take a step back from the "large" local developers and see ideas from other "smaller" local developers. I think there are alot of issues within the developer circles that float around our wonderful city. I can honsetly say, the largest and most prevalent development companes in Buffalo have way too much pull and do more harm than good to Buffalo. Let's here from the "little" people, the ones that have ideas outside of the box...
From B News "Henry L. Burns, a longtime Planning Board member, backed the project, noting that the hotel won’t be a high-rise that would obscure waterfront views." How does 10 story obscure view more than 4 story if you are on ground?
Also, did any of you commenters let the Planning Board know your feelings by either commenting at the hearing or sending your comments to the Board? You can still file an article 78 to take the Plan Board to court on this project.
God forbid the Common Council take up color swatches, Paul!
I would say if the proposal as it stands is certainly not good enough. I've always expressed that opinion. I am impressed by Zyscovich and have placed great confidence in his promise that "There will be new designs." The transformation from the first proposal to the second draft was a big leap and inspired much-deserved confidence. I was expecting something bolder and more playful for Planning Board meeting. I don't know. Perhaps this is a "client" issue. I'm very surprised. Either way, the review process is not complete and I hope there is an opportunity to take this "above average" proposal and make it something about which Buffalo and the City can boast. Who is here to boast of beige?
Green, the original, is by far the best and is integral to the design. It reflects the color of the Niagara River where the Lake is flowing towards and so honors the energy of this unique site. It's soft and as warm as green can be. All the other choices are old hat and will seem very dated very quickly. WHY NOT PUT IT TO A VOTE, LIKE THE PEACE BRIDGE PUBLIC CONTESTS. It will involve people and give us all some investment in the development choices for our gorgeous waterfront.
Count me among those in favor of shorter buildings on the waterfront. I think the area feels more walkable and inviting populated by shorter buildings, generally speaking.
My impression is that those advocating for taller structures here prefer the visual impression from a distance (say, from the 190, the Skyway, etc.). Larger buildings in greater numbers bespeak a more vibrant downtown in their estimation.
But over supply of office space (or any space) is a bad condition for vibrancy. We don't need taller buildings everywhere. The waterfront should be, first and foremost, a destination for local residents to enjoy. The small boat harbor is jammed with locals taking in the sun on summer days. Give them more to explore. I like the aesthetic of shorter buildings in this context.
You mean like in Helsinki? Where the waterfront streetwall consists of 4,5 and six story historical structures that blend seamlessly into the low-rise fabric of that capital city? Buildings of quality and skilled construction which narrate the city's beginnings as a Baltic port? Or do you mean a low-rise, low-rent suburban motel sited next to a crappy wannabe tourist dive of a restaurant hogging precious waterfront space for the purposes of separating strays from their money? What's worthwhile about the Ciminelli proposal is that it portends a lot of activity around it while this bit of glop actually blockades the waterfront and attracts little if anything towards it. And yeah, paint it green if it helps. Total design FAIL.
Once again, sony, you hit the nail on the head.
I don't like this building either, no matter what the color is. In all honesty, I DO think the green looks the best.
But I'll agree with many others on here, it doesn't look distinctive at all..it looks like a cross between a parking garage and a typical suburban office building. It will be a tragedy if something styled like this is built on the Buffalo waterfront during the one chance we are going to see at its redevelopment.
Please build something more distinctive, not this.
BR,
Thank you for writing this post. In the past we have seen good results come out of a BR post. Let's hope the right people are viewing this post and wake up before it's too late.
DON'T KILL THE WATERFRONT!
Sony kind of stole my words
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"Count me among those in favor of shorter buildings on the waterfront. I think the area feels more walkable and inviting populated by shorter buildings, generally speaking."
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what will make the area walkable and inviting is not the building height, but how it interacts with those walking by. It's all about the first 2-3 floors and how inviting they are along their facades.
Spoken like a true and talented photographer.
I'm just waiting to wake up one morning and the Wingate Beige is leading the poll. After the Cimineli proposal holding 76% for a week straight, its dropped 10% all the sudden, so perhaps the fix is in. Brown has all his employees voting at the top of every hour.
barrffff....
the fact they even considered that first color scheme should just make everyone change the channel on the project. i agree with you, MJ. This design, though, feels so suburban. i'd prefer a building taller than it is wide, but what IS more important is how it interacts with the pedestrian.
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Still UGLY. It looks like it belongs on the campus of SUNY Fredonia.
We deserve better. Much better.