Regional June 2, 2009 10:41 PM

Voters to Settle Local Government Downsizing Debate

Voters to Settle Local Government Downsizing Debate
Just a couple of days ago, New York State passed a bill that allowed citizens to vote on consolidating governments.  This legislation gives citizens the opportunity to remove ineffective positions.

On Wednesday June 3rd, the Evans and West Seneca voters will make history in deciding whether to downsize their town board from five to three members.  For the first time, these voters will be determining how many people will represent them in government.

As a resident of West Seneca, I have seen and heard opinions on this topic for several months.  Signs litter the lawns, and articles appear in The Buffalo NewsThe Edge's Shredd and Ragan have picked their side.  Even my friend Vinny Graber, who is the son to a West Seneca councilman, has given me an earful.  What is the fuss all about?

Supporters of downsizing say that we need to save the tax payers money.  One way to do this is to eliminate two members of the town board.  While we all have the economic blues, those in favor of downsizing say that reducing the government would save everyone money.  The Assembly estimates that if the taxpayers downsize throughout New York State, they could save billions of dollars each year.

downsizing3.jpgSam Hoyt is a supporter of downsizing local governments.  Hoyt states, "I have heard from many taxpayers about the crushing cost of local taxes -- about the job-killing cocktail of county taxes, town taxes, village taxes, or any of the other taxes triggered by dozens of types of special district taxes.  I've heard from Western New Yorkers whose five category taxes are $9,000.  That represents more than 20% of the regional median income."

But where is this money going to go?  How much money will the average person be saving?  Will this make our local governments any more efficient?  Is Hoyt only supporting this because his own job is safe?

The opposition is singing a different tune.  In an article to The Buffalo News, West Seneca councilman Vincent Graber Jr. writes, "Eliminating two council members could save taxpayers only 5.4 cents per thousand of assessed valuation."  That means, if your house is worth $70,000, you save less than $4 per year. 

In 1851, when the five member board was chosen, the population in West Seneca was 2,000.  Graber argues that five members were needed to run a town of that size.  In 2009, the population has risen to 46,000, yet with the same five member board.  In turn, the residents receive more services, such as snow removal, road repair, park upkeep, and garbage pickup, things that were simply not available in 1851.  Still, we have the same size board, although the population has gone up considerably.

Opponents also fear that downsizing will put too much power into the few remaining politicians.  By only having three board members, these towns have a potential to make decisions faster.  Instead of getting a 3-2 majority, there would only have to be a 2-1.  But would this power be used for the right reasons?

Kathyrn A. Foster, director of the University of Buffalo's Regional Institute, warns voters against consolidating.  "There's a trade-off for democracy here.  Why have fewer people represent you?" Foster questions.  "We find three men in a room objectionable in Albany.  We should think very carefully before we do that locally."

Regardless of how anyone votes, what is undeniable is that reducing the town board would put more work on fewer people.  Will downsizing really move our towns in the path of progress?  Is this a political ploy, or will these towns and citizens truly benefit?  To watch Graber further debate the issue, a video is available on the Channel 2 News website.

The ballot box is open from 11AM-9PM in Evans and West Seneca on Wednesday, June 3rd for voters to make their own decision.  Similar options will become available to the voters of Orchard Park, Hamburg, and Alden this coming November.

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well, I suggest Brian Davis as one of the first ineffective positions to go. Why is he still holding office?

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My elementary school (Buffalo) has sat dormant for some 20 years or more and the Seneca Mall ruins are still around all the while there were 5 people on the board. Couldn't absolutely nothing take place with 2 fewer board members?

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Without getting into the merits of the debate, I just have to point out that Kathryn Foster, the director of the UB Regional Institute, apparently does not understand what makes the "3 men in a room" concept objectionable.


It is not that we abhor 3 people making decisions. It is that we elect 430-something people to make those decisions, but only 3 of them actually do, and their decisions are shaped for the most part by who pays them the most money. The rest of our state representatives simply go along for fear that voting against the party bosses will prematurely end their political careers. In that scenario, the elected officials are not actually representing their constituents, but rather just impotently voting however the Govenor, Senate Majority leader and Assembly Speaker tell them to vote. That's not "representative government." If it was "5 men in a room" it would be just as bad because it completely cuts out the voice of the people in shaping the policy of this state. The book "3 Men in a Room" is about the complete subversion of democratic ideals in the New State Legislature.


Simply changing the number of representatives on a town board has absolutely nothing to do with any of that - it does not subvert democracy at all. Whether the number is 3 or 5, those 3 or 5 people are still directly accountable to the voters every election cycle because they are the only elected officials in town. Ironically, this downsizing petition is the complete opposite of "3 men in a room" - it is the epitome of democratic ideals in that the people of the town get to vote on this issue directly. They're not electing anyone to do it for them. They get their say. It doesn't matter HOW the people vote - what matters is that they are able to vote. That is democracy actualized, which makes Ms. Foster's "3 men in a room" comparison all the more sophomoric.

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^^^make that 212, not 430.

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I think its important to note that both sides in this argument are utilizing the spoils system in condemning the opposing side. The problem there is not a matter of large vs small government, I think thats just an inherant problem with a democratic government.

However the trade off for a few dollars on taxes doesnt really seem to justify compromising our representation- just because we have been given the opportunity to. Lets save it for when consolidation is actually needed, or set the precedent in a bloated Erie County.

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Removing a few town board members is small stuff but I will take it as its a step in the right direction. After this desolving towns and city governments should be looked at. There has got to be a way to reduce state mandates for county and local spending as well.

@onestar martin, Yeah in most places public sector or private if someone steals 30k in funds to blow on a restaurant scam they are usualy out of a job. Sadly he remains in office. One more reason for disolving city govenment, the BERC and other agencies.

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My issue is that I really don't see the value of a large town baord, when you're talking about simply needing to provide basic services and balance budgets. Really, we're not talking rocket science or complex large scale decisions like at a State level. If you have fewer people in the oom, there is less chance for infighting, more of the spot light on the individuals, and still a level of checks and balances. If we always scaled up our representation at a local level absed on populaiton size, Buffalo's council should be shrinking, and Amherst & Clarence growing each year - and neith makes sense. And to be honest, I don't feel "represented" by town council members. I never see them outside of election season, and what do they need to "represent" me for? I want the waer to come to my house, the sewage to flow away, the roads to be plowed, the schools funded & running well, and some degree of planning for the future. Maybe planning is the area I have any desire for representation - but that often doesn't side with the residents but the developers, unless the town has strong & sound code in place. I'm not being cynical, just practical. Th only way to reduce our crushing gov't overhead is to start gradually, in small steps from the bottom, and work our way up. There's really nothing more "American" or democratic than that.

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Down-sizing is critically necessary. It is not about how much each individual saves per household, as the buffalo news article puts it. Rather it is about making government run more efficiently. As the area populations decrease so too must it's representation. To disagree is contradictory to the idea of representation itself. In an area such as buffalo, we need far fewer public sector employees to lower the amount of tax dollars necessary to fund a persons salary, pension, benefits, etc. It may be only a few council seats but this can translate to other areas as well and possibly be the start of elimination of duplicate services between so many towns and the county, as well as the city of Buffalo. I'd still like to see Buffalo annex Lackawanna as had been discussed to increase the cities tax base and allow them to assume the necessary services from lackawanna and trim the fat so to speak of those not necessary.

downsizing government is necessary if NYS is going to become a state for businesses and private sectors to bring jobs. That is the primary hope buffalo must have, and starting this on the local level is a must.

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Its five people.... not twenty. And how come this was not an issue until we recieved the ability to decide on consolidation? Regionalization would probably be a great thing for Buffalo and the surrounding suburbs, but this is not the way to start it. Its pointless and a waste of time to channel efforts to eliminate two positions. Like I said if we are going to set a precedent with consolidating government lets do it on a scale that will actually make a difference.

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When can we vote to downsize the city and state governments?

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Good point. Lets get a city vote going soon.

replied to O'Brien
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After the next Census the Council will have to define new district boundaries, and no doubt at that point somebody will suggest downsizing from 9 to 7. I'd vote for that if it reaches the ballot. 7 would be enough. Maybe even 5 would be ok. Really there's nothing stopping them from downsizing now, except they don't want to.

replied to Armchair MBA
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Well said whatever. 5 councilmemers seem like a good fit to me. And yes like the last council reduction there will be a lot of ugly stuff including namecalling and race baiting from politicians fighting for their careers. Hopefuly like then the downsizing will pass.

replied to whatever
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Buffalo has already reduced the number of common council members.
The next big step should be to regionalize the police force. Operating all these separate departments is not only expensive and inefficent but deprives those with the most need the protection they deserve.

replied to O'Brien
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The common council was downsized, but it is still too large. We have nine council districts and council members who are splitting up the city instead of bringing it together. That said, when I think about downsizing the city government I am talking about the dozens and dozens of patronage positions that have been added to the city government over the decades. It may have slowed down with the control board in place, but past abuses have yet to be undone.


I don't disagree that we should probably disband the Buffalo Police department and bring in the Erie County Sheriffs or Amherst Police. They are doing a far more effective job than the joke of a police force that we currently have in place.


I also believe that we should consolidate Erie County school systems into five districts and divide the Buffalo Schools between two or three of them.


Buffalo should be split into four geographical council districts (NE, SE, NW, SW) and schools in those districts would be managed out the corresponding Erie County districts. This would alleviate your concerns that city residents do not have access to the same educational opportunities as suburban residents.


replied to Blackrocklifer
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We can agree that there are far too many patronage positions in all levels of our government.
I don't believe the Amherst Police department is more effective. How hard can it be to police a wealthy suburb that is insulated from all of the regions poverty and associated problems.
County wide schools would help level the playing field but until we make it possible for all Americans to join the middle class there is little hope for any real change.

replied to O'Brien
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Reaching the middle class is nearly impossible if you drop out of high school at 16.


It is my understanding that the Amherst Police actively patrol high crime areas and make arrests. They also respond to 911 calls in a timely manner. I have called the 911 in Buffalo several times while low level crimes are in progress, and they do not respond. They always seem to have something more important to attend to. There was a shots fired call on my street last Wednesday night, it took the police 25 minutes to show up. Someone could have been shot 25 minutes before the police showed up, that could have been the difference between life or death if someone had actually been shot. When my neighbor called 911 the second time, the operator actually asked her to go out to see if she could see anything amiss. Seriously, shots are being fired and the police are asking a 60+ year old woman to go outside to scout it out. I looked that crime reports for that night and there was nothing more important happening at that time. This level of complacency is not tolerated in Amherst, but is common place in Buffalo.


Honestly, the services in Buffalo suck because we let them suck. It is not the suburbs wealth that makes them more effective, it is the fact that people in the suburbs will not tolerate a substandard level of service from their police department. Same is true for the schools. I think it is time to give up on the thought that the city is leading the way in anything in this area and start accepting help from our neighbors.

replied to Blackrocklifer
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I share your frustration with the BPD but doubt the Amherst Police could do any better when faced with the problems of the 3rd poorest city in the nation.
Wealth allows access and access is power. Poor people do not have the same voice as the more affluent. To claim we are to blame for not demanding more is simplistic. It is the concentration of poverty in the city that drives our crime and school performance. Move all the poor to Amherst and they would face the same problems as Buffalo. Then we would be talking about how Amherst "just doesn't get it" and "they just won't help themselves" etc etc.

replied to O'Brien
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If these town boards do downsize, another position will be created within the town to keep them around. Similar situation to Baby Joe Mesi.
Yeah, lets eliminate a position to save money, then hire them back as something else!

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3 sounds like too few for any legislative body. If I lived in West Seneca, I'd vote no.

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All the people wishing a downsizing of the Buffalo Council, remember one thing, you are often the voices who are most opposed to the Executive Administration. Downsizing the Council places even more power into the hands of the Mayor. Is that what you really want?

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You are 100% correct in reducing council representation giving the mayors office more power. When one considers our current mayors record one would not want to grant him any more power than he has. However I will go along with reducing government as much as possible in spite of the lousy mayor. I for one would like to see the Buffalo city government including the mayors office disolved and merged with the county. This is a good start.

replied to bflobr
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I live in West Seneca, and voted NO. Five council members is few enough for a town of 46,000.

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The downsize-to-3 side won big in both towns.


http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/691852.html
"The vote was nearly 2-to-1 in favor of downsizing in both towns, according to unofficial results. In West Seneca, 6,245 voted in favor, with 4,252 opposed. In Evans, 2,222 voted in favor, and 1,326 against."

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I live in the town of evans...

This is crap because now we only need 2 out of 3 people to get a majority. Where's the debate there? Where's any sense of representation there with 2 people? All for 13 bucks in Evans we lose liberties. Why couldn't we have gotten rid of something else? really? Build a beach casino, do something. lol

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There will be a trade off with smaller local government. With downsizing expect things to be a bit less responsive. There will be diminished representation as well. However just about everybody in WNY can agree that govt is too big and we are in need of tax relief. The problem is so many people bi#*h about taxes but want to see other govts cut back but cling to their local politicains with a death grip. In order to get tax relief we have to cut back on these wasteful, competing local governments. Yes there will be a level of sacrafice but it will be well worth it if the small local government movement continues. Now lets move on to other towns, school districts, IDAs and the city of buffalo and do the same thing.

Very encouraging to see the overwhelming majority support downsizing. Listening to reactionary/extreme conservative Tom Bauerles radio show had me believing that this idea was dead and big local govt was here to stay.

replied to Greg
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i voted YES in west seneca. Boo yah. i gota go take the hand made sign off the tree in my front yard now. If every town took two members of their board the savings adds up. every little bit helps and will build momentum to bigger things. The unions and families of politicians were the only people opposed to this.

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All of these town board downsizes are small potato sideshows. I wouldn't want only three people on a town board. Too much power in only two people's hands. We drastically need to lower government cost in NYS, but this won't do that. This is nothing but symbolism. Downsizing will bring pennies to the coffers at the potential cost of poor governance and more easily purchased influence (overt or even unconscious corruption of the public good).


Consolidation might help make us more efficient, but not necessarily, certainly not universally. Let's say all the police forces combined. Would that lower salaries? Which salary structure do you honor? Most likely everybody would be brought up to the highest municipality's salary scale. Ditto for benefits. Our high taxes can be attributed mostly to the extraordinary costs of police, fire and schools. Those unions have wrested fabulous retirement and benefits packages through government protection (arbitration, Taylor Law). Until municipal unions face the crucible of limited resources much in the way auto workers have been forced to do, the cost of government will continue to be extraordinarily high (that and NYS' too-generous Medicare package). It would help, too, to cull out patronage. Once upon a time (1800s), taking bribes from lobbyists was perfectly okay for members of Congress. Time changed expectations. So too should patronage be ended. The rule should be that the appearance of potential favoritism should rule out friends and relatives of any office holders from positions on the payroll. And no more ex-pols running the water boards.

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I agree that the "town board downsizes are small potatoes". The big money is in the inefficent patchwork of services provided by all our cities, towns, and villages.
Consolidation of police would allow resources to be devoted to areas of need, something that is not possible now. This would certainly help bring residents and business back to areas of the city that have been underserved for so long.
As for patronage I work for a large health care system that requires a conflict of interest statement to be adhered to by all management staff. Why couldn't our government demand the same?

replied to biniszkiewicz
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"Downsizing" for the sake of fewer representatives is not the answer, IMO.

What WNY sorely need - requires - is CONSOLIDATION of governing entities - MERGE Cities and Towns and Villages in Erie County - or most of URBAN Erie County into ONE "Metro" government with the former villages, towns, etc. become "burroughs" similar to what they have in Toronto and NYC.

That will DECREASE the taxes that people are always screaming about, by ELIMINATING duplicate and overlapping services, etc.

As to the actual number of "council members" or what ever you want to eventually call these local municipal representatives, their number should be based strictly on a number based on equal representation based on population by district/locality served. It SHOULD be quite simple to determine.

The arguments against fewer "council"/"town board" members is extremely valid - even an HMO for a residential development has at least 5 members - if not for any other reason that more persons who give imput to decisions is BETTER for the eventual decision.

The push should be for REGIONAL government and ELIMINATION of duplicate/overlapping jurisdictions.

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