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June 5, 2009 12:01 AM
Comments: 64
We have seen the most development in decades. Some political leaders seem to be finally taking a stand. Hundreds of people have moved downtown in the past few years. Civic pride in our fair city has increased, and our quality of life remains strong. But the question remains... Has Buffalo finally turned the corner?
"Wheelingman, a forumer on SkyScraperCity from West Virginia, asks if Buffalo is making a comeback:
"I was impressed with Buffalo when I visited yesterday. I know the economy is not great in Buffalo, but are there signs that the city is coming back? I have heard that there are many new projects occurring near the waterfront downtown? What do you think? Share your experiences there."
Is Buffalo coming back?
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June 4, 2009 11:50 PM
Absolutely! It's been a long time coming, and will take a while (and some TLC to take hold) but yes, Buffalo IS making a comeback.
June 4, 2009 11:57 PM
sure is. have to be blind not to notice. now if we can do something about this state taxing us to death we can really get rocking.
June 5, 2009 12:27 AM
I would also agree... 5 hours of buffalo talk at CPG's left me with worries and pride about our city. It is experiencing more growth and prosperity than in decades but still has many regional ailment that will keep it from long term sustainability. I fear that the national trend towards cities will fade and with it some of the glamor of Buffalo. That is unless a new local educational imperative is passed that actually illustrates our regions various benefits and amenities to young people.
June 5, 2009 12:47 AM
It's stabilizing, which could be the start of a comeback, but until there's some job growth with new residents...it will always be a troubled area.
Patterson vetoing the state pension plan was a good first step, the potential consolidation of area governmental entities is another.
June 5, 2009 12:18 PM
I agree with Ike, we're stabilizing. An excellent step, but I don't think we can say we're recovering (or having a comeback).
June 5, 2009 1:30 AM
I disagree. While there is a wealth of development downtown, the problems that have plagued the city over the past 50 years have not changed. The taxes are still grossly high and politics are still corrupt. The projects that are happening are inflated with government dollars and they do not address the fundamental problems with the the city. I love Buffalo, but I maintain a healthy skeptism with the notion that we have truly turned a corner.
June 5, 2009 3:03 AM
Buffalo is indeed on the mend. Everything we see here tells us this. But the real corner that we've yet to round is where we are no longer dwelling on the riches of the past but laying the groundwork for a magnificent future. You look at other cities in the same predicament: St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Detroit, and you see the early signs of stabilization and recovery for some, but continued decline and despair for others. There's not much of a roadmap here, populations keep falling and major investments are scarce, yet among all of these once great cities that have lost half or more of their citizens, Buffalo seems to have a better chance of recovery. As is so often stated here, the biggest obstacle to Buffalo's turnaround is Albany. Albany has turned all of NYS into a zombie kept alive only to bleed it out some more. But fear not: Rule One in the parasite handbook is "Never kill the host".
June 5, 2009 1:04 PM
"You look at other cities in the same predicament: St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Detroit, and you see the early signs of stabilization and recovery for some, but continued decline and despair for others."
Pittsburgh is a model of "urban renaissance"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/28/g20-pittsburgh-us-hosting_n_208735.html
June 5, 2009 5:52 AM
There will be no comeback for Buffalo if the Public Bridge Authority, Byron Brown, and Brian Higgins have their way. All movement forward will come to a screeching halt if the bridge plaza happens.
Did you know that the Wilson Farms on Niagara/Hampshire will be the new location of the world's largest duty free? That spot is where the new plaza/truck stop will begin.
If you love Buffalo and don't want this city to continue to make poor transportation choices, don't let this happen. Call Byron and Brian to tell them not to let this happen.
June 5, 2009 8:47 AM
PBM, the new bridge design looks great. I can't wait until construction begins!
June 6, 2009 10:27 PM
You think we need to spend $770 million dollars for a new bridge when traffic has decreased greatly? How about our tax dollars building the largest duty free in North America and a 517 car parking garage?
The latest plan of the month hasn't been approved and most likely never will. Buffalo deserves better than being a doormat for a truck plaza.
June 5, 2009 9:36 AM
I couldn't disagree more. The new bridge and travel plaza will help, not hurt.
pops1586 - right on.
June 5, 2009 10:20 AM
The bridge plaza without shared border management needs to be stopped at all costs. Bulldozing a rare, valuable neighborhood for a project with questionable economic development potential is a poor idea. This project as well as the new elevated rt 5 and the buffalo creek casino show that Buffalos leadership has learned very little from its planning blunders of the past.
That being said it is great to see that unlike the 50s and 60s citizen groups are stepping up and opposing some of these and other short sighted development plans. It worked with blocking a 150 million dollar zoo that we couldnt afford and I hope it will work on stopping the peace bridge plaza re-construction. Citizen involvement and less tolerance for poor leadership tells me WNY is turning the corner. We still have a lot of work ahead.
June 5, 2009 8:57 AM
Buffalo is on its way back. I think citizens have really taken their neighborhoods back and forced the city and developers into more quality development. People have begun to develop the city on their own, DESPITE City Hall and DESPITE powerful developers. However, the big hurdle remains to make Buffalo and New York State an affordable place to do business. Until then, we'll continue to see the City improve, but I don't imagine a major boom on the horizon until we become less cost prohibitive for major employers and work give new entrepreneurs incentives to succeed.
June 5, 2009 9:10 AM
Other then the problems that need not be mentioned on the NY State level there is definitely a postive vibe in this city, thanks in part to BR. Erie county control board going soft is another move in the right direction as well..
June 5, 2009 10:01 AM
It is imperative to build on the progress that is being made. The city has to be marketed as a destination LOCALLY first. We have a substantial regional population who think the City is a crime infested, arson prone dump. Those are the hearts and minds that need to be won over. And frankly it doesn't need to start with politicians, but our own media!
The News & 2/4/7 immediatley remind folks that we are the third poorest city in the us, and that manufactureing jobs are gone, and the ones that remain are soon to vanish too. By gone times of proserity, add to the defeatism that surround the downtown like the waff of Cheerios in the morning. And every single day, we are reminded of how awful The City of Buffalo is, and how small Western New york is! ENOUGH.
Private investment once made this city great. It can happen again, but the corner is not at 90 degrees, rather a long sweeping curve, and we have just entered the turn.
June 6, 2009 11:16 AM
Thank you. I feel that a lot of the areas ills are a matter of perception. Weather its defeatist collums in the Buffalo News or TV news that focuses on highlighting every violent crime within city limits, the media does its share to paint WNY as lousy place to live. I think the media outlets have figured out that negativity sells in this town. Many people around here dont take news as genuine unless it has a bitter spin to it. Im not asking for storys on sunshine and rainbows all of the time but the media should tell the whole story and not just the negative side.
June 5, 2009 10:01 AM
What a negative concept "comeback" is! Who wants to go backwards? Buffalo has wonderful energy and has been especially blessed by the enthusiasm, talent and efforts of a couple of new generations of people who are investing in the city. So stop focussing on recapturing some bygone prominence and appreciate where we are right now. This comeback nonsense reminds me of all the self conscious boost Buffalo stuff. Methinks thou dost protest too much. It makes one wonder why the hard sell! Just focus on doing the great things we've been doing and relax.
June 5, 2009 10:19 AM
It seems like every decade since the 1960s, there's been the promise and hype of a "renaissance" in Buffalo. I don't see a comeback anytime soon. Neighborhoods on the East Side will get worse before they get better; Kensington, East End/Delavan-Bailey and Schiller Park are still falling fast, with little or no hope for a turnaround. Riverside is struggling, and blue-collar inner ring suburban neighborhods are starting to see problems with an increasingly obsolete housing stock and many other issues; problems that other Rust Belt 'burbs have been facing for 20 or 30 years.
The city as a whole, though, appears to be bottoming out. At least Buffalo's bottom isn't as bad as that of Toledo, Cleveland (outside of downtown, University Circle, Shaker Square/Larchmere and Ohio City/Tremont) or the accelerating freefall of Detroit. Buffalo will NEVER return to the glory days of the 1950s; sorry, old farts, but Sattlers, the Town Casino, Freddie's Donuts, Deco, Broadway as a shopping destination and all the other things that you nostalgically weep for aren't coming back.
As other cities continue to boom, Buffalo's national stature will continue to shrink. Buffalo will lose some of its reputation as it's rediscovered, though. I see Buffalo in 10 or 20 years as being much like Providence today; a decent, livable place with a hip edge, but still old school blue collar locals-only at its heart.
June 6, 2009 11:33 AM
Love the Providence RI comparison. I think as a region we should accept our populaion decline as a reality and work to make greater Buffalo a vibrant small city instead of an empty big one. That means tough choices including govt consolidation, shrinking transportation infrastructure, halting outward sprawl and telling the Bills no if they should ask for a 500+million dollar new stadium. When we start growing again we can look to add and expand and maybe get the NFL back.
That being said Id like to point somthing out on the supposed "unrealistic" idea of becoming a center of manufacturing again. I dont think this is as far off as some would like to believe. Two things that heavy manufacturing need, cheap power and fresh water still exist in WNY in abundance. I read that at its peak Beth Steel needed somthing like 16 million gallons of water every day for its daily needs. There are only a few places in the world where this can be done and have acces to cheap electricity and Buffalo is one of them.
Problem is that in spite of this, as a nation, it is tough to compete with other countries because our costs are too high. National healthcare(sorry right wingers) would allow US factories to compete nationaly cost wise and our region could rival nearby Hamilton for production of durable goods. If the federal govt got serious about making the US a nation of producers instead of a nation of consumers Buffalo could once again see large scale industrial development.
June 6, 2009 1:43 PM
pit>"Two things that heavy manufacturing need, cheap power and fresh water still exist in WNY in abundance. ...in spite of this, as a nation, it is tough to compete with other countries because our costs are too high."
Primarily blaming foreign competition ignores WNY falling way behind other parts of the U.S. in attracting new factories. In another thread I linked a recent article discussing how "disappearing manufacturing in the U.S." is a myth:
"The myth of US industry's demise
By Michael Brush MSN Money 5/20/2009
Chrysler bankrupt, General Motors on the brink, layoffs almost too deep to count. No wonder the recession has brought out a chorus of hand-wringers lamenting that America "doesn't make anything anymore" and that all the good jobs have been outsourced.
Few myths could be further from the truth. Despite headlines about low-wage workers in China and our factory jobs going to India -- which has happened in a lot of industries -- the U.S. is still far and away the biggest manufacturer in the world.
U.S. workers produce 21% of all factory goods made globally, or about $1.7 trillion worth per year. That's significantly lower than the peak of 28% in 1985 but only slightly below the long-term average of 23% for 1970 through 2006. China, the second-biggest global producer, doesn't even come close. It makes just 13% of the world's stuff, or $1 trillion worth. ...
...During the previous economic boom, manufacturing contributed more to U.S. growth than any other sector...."
Whole article here:
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/the-myth-of-us-industrys-demise.aspx
June 6, 2009 1:50 PM
The power and water were also here in 2000, 1990, 1980.... and yet manufcturing companies disproportionately built new U.S. factories elsewhere. WNY is now near the U.S. average of what percent of jobs here are in the manufacturing sector. At one time it was among the nation's larger manufacturing centers, and now it's average and falling.
The Toyota power-train factory in Buffalo, West Virginia (without a Great Lake, with same health care system as here, etc.) has more employees than WNY's GM power-train factory. Honda factories employ over 40,000 in Ohio (also same health care system, and which is on Lake Erie but that's not where these plants are).
Evidently, adjacency to a Great Lake isn't a major factor in factory location-choosing as it was in the case of Beth Steel, or maybe other places in the U.S. can also offer a sufficient supply of it from rivers. Power costs are one factor among many.
June 5, 2009 11:23 AM
My perspective on Buffalo is from living in Massachusetts for the last 35 years and visiting the city at least once a year for those 35 years. At the end of the 80's and early 90's, I would come home to five or six "For Sale" signs on each side of a city block in the nicer neighborhoods. I thought that this signaled "the end" for the city. I felt like sending Jimmy and Tony letters of Congratulations for driving everyone out of the city limits. After Tony's tax reevaluation and the start and growth of the unbelievable neighborhood pride regenerator, the GardenWalk, the "For Sale" sign epidemic ended and city houses started to be attractive to buyers again. Since the beginning of the new century, Buffalo has shown some very visible signs of new construction and rehabilitation growth in the Downtown area, and to my eyes, since around 2005, significant housing rehabilitation in the more desirable neighborhoods of the city. While housing rehabilitation in the area from Richmond to Linwood is encouraging, what Harvey Garrett and others have done in the area below Richmond is thrilling and inspiring. The efforts on the lower West Side are indicative of a spirit of activism and entrepreneurship and strong citizen participation that I have seen grow in numbers and strength over the last 10 years. Of course Buffalo is far from perfect and yes, the city has suffered many losses and it would be great to see the lower West side spirit take hold on the East Side. But when I see and read about life and morale in Michigan this week or hear on the radio about Dayton, Ohio loosing its only Fortune 500 company, NCR, to some place in Georgia, I can only acknowledge that hard times comes to everyone and I know that Buffalo is a great survivor.
June 5, 2009 12:47 PM
I look at the Elmwood Village, Downtown, and to a degree Hertel and have to say, yes, Buffalo is getting better. Let's keep focusing on these areas to get them where they need to be. Then we can do something with the other parts of town like the East Side (for which there may be no hope, build a wall around it and let them kill each other off).
June 5, 2009 1:04 PM
Where did Buufalo go? It's always been here and always will be.
NOW DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE OUT OF CONTROL TAXES!!!!
June 5, 2009 2:54 PM
"Comeback" is one of those stupid media terms...cities never "return"; they never stop rising and falling. All older cities in the Midwest and Northeast, from Buffalo to Chicago to Philadelphia down to St. Louis will always rise and fall and rise a bit, then fall a bit. That's the nature of cities. But that doesn't have to change the meaning of living there for most people. All older cities face enormous systemic problems in a country whose economy is so volatile and capricious, whose population and leaders listen seriously to faddish pronouncements by MSN or the tiresome Richard Florida. No, I don't think Buffalo will ever come back; no cities come back. They change, evolve, usually slowly, and people continue to live and find meaning in their lives within them. When you have self-consciousness about where you live as being cutting edge or progressive or ahead, there lies the seed of provincialism.
Buffalo will always be an interesting and textured place to live. It is much more than "working class" (a reductive, increasingly obsolete term; all cities are working class). It is layered with colorful history and it carries an almost ineffable quality of American life at its most authentic. The city has been anchored by cultural sophistication and refinement for 150 years. The houses seem to murmur to eachother, and even when we build new things or change a neighborhood, the ancestry of the streets continues to perfume the atmosphere. This is all beyond and superior to "hip or "cool." It even surpasses in meaning economic growth, which is enviable. But when growth stalls, do creativity and meaning stall with it? Not always. Not here, as so many events, concerns, and people described in BRO prove.
So I reject this question: "will Buffalo come back?" It's the wrong question to ask. This is not how we should look at cities. It assumes a sort of plateau wherein all is well if we reach it. That's not the nature of economies or demographics. Let's recognize the energy that seems to be pulsing through Buffalo lately and nourish it. Elect better leaders; woo more business; take pleasure in the beauty we're lucky to have inherited. But then one has to just live and embrace one's environment. That's what's heppening here, and it's meaningful. And it never ends.
June 7, 2009 3:18 PM
Someone's been hitting the authentic, genuine, real and honest loganberry-flavored Kool-Aid a bit too hard ...
June 7, 2009 6:34 PM
Dan, I complimented your first comment above but now you're losing me again with your lame "real and honest" (neither) comedy act.
I doubt I have many interests in common with EricOak, but he brings an interesting perspective and explains his views in reasonable ways. There's nothing loganberry-ish about his comments. If you disagree with him, great - but why not reply with a specific intelligent rebuttal instead of your tired stale loganberry "jokes"?
June 5, 2009 3:36 PM
I agree the City is showing signs of improvement but I think there's a long road back to decent population growth and prosperity. Unfortunately Buffalo sometimes feels like a satellite outpost at the end of the New York State Thruway syatem, a frontier city with no clear direction or no constant stream of commerce, it seems cutoff from the rest of the east coast but not quite part of the midwest. Many of the projects in Buffalo certainly show promise because SOMETHING is finally happening, but they have heavy government subsidy and we're still not seeing the big blockbuster private sector investments. It would help if the market showed population and income growth to justify it. It would help if in reality there weren't large swaths of land in the city that were "crime infested, arson prone dump"s. Thats a really really large east side out there and frankly most of it is a big hole, its a huge underutilized taxable area laid to waste by thugs who seem to operate carelessly without societal rules or decency. Instead we focus regional policing resources on college drinking parties near Canisius. Nice. Though some neighborhoods seem to have been taken back by caring citizens I think theres still at least as many areas still overpowered by those who would do harm.
June 5, 2009 3:59 PM
Yes!
June 5, 2009 6:13 PM
I agree with Eric Oak's reasons why Buffalo4Life's question as worded isn't meaningful enough to answer.
Certainly in an economics sense the answer would be "no", but it's not clear that's what the question is intending to ask at all.
That said, I've no idea what sbrof means by "it [Buffalo] is experiencing more growth and prosperity than in decades".
Most geographic portions of Buffalo (other than those BR usually focuses on for their upbeat mission, which is fine) aren't at all having more prosperity in the 00s decade than in the 90s, 80s, etc.
I'm not saying that relates to the Buff4Life's question, since I don't get what the question is asking. But that's my comment about sbrof's comment.
June 5, 2009 7:41 PM
The post is supposed to be a vague question, opening up room for a lot of discussion. It was also taken from SSC where a forumer posted the question. It's a vague topic, with no right or wrong answer. I listed a couple facts, you judge for yourself whether it has turned the corner or not.
June 5, 2009 6:30 PM
This would be easier to answer if it involved a list of multiple-choice questions.
June 5, 2009 7:29 PM
Some parts of Buffalo may be experiencing growth, but right now 9% of Buffalo is unemployed, that's about 25,000 people.
Black male unemployment is hovering around 50%. http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/463808.html
Buffalo will never "comeback" unless we work to ensure that all parts of Buffalo "comeback".
June 7, 2009 3:24 PM
> Buffalo will never "comeback" unless we work to ensure that all parts of Buffalo "comeback".
A-friggin-men. Compared to Cleveland and even Detroit, Buffalo has only a very small black middle-class, relatively speaking. One neighborhood on the East Side does not make a solid black middle class.
June 5, 2009 9:29 PM
About the best that can be said for Buffalo is that it has stabilized
It needs a major research university...UB is not there yet
It needs a light rail connecting Airport, Galleria, Central Terminal and Downtown...Amherst...and Buffalo State!
It needs another center for excellence if not 3-4 more.
Every college needs a small business incubator
and Buffalo needs to spend alot more on infrastructure: trees, sidewalks, curbs, period street lighting, repaved streets and recobbled historic districts, lift bridges AND MIDDLE CLASS INFILL!
These are the only ways to attract major employers and middle classes back to urban neighborhoods.
without the above...we arent going to keep our wealthy or our middle class...Buffalo isnt going to grow...
June 6, 2009 12:24 AM
Queen City,
I work in higher education, and I can assure you that UB is considered a major research university throughout academe. It is a member of the most select organization of research universities in the country.
June 6, 2009 4:04 AM
ErikOak, I qualify a major research university by their public private partnerships that create products, new research centers, new companies and new jobs.
If one looks to Rochester, the UofR & RIT together are not as big as UB but every year they manage to add another Center or Center of Excellence, most recently a Center for Excellence in Clinical Trials for FDA...which really helps to attract pharmaceutical and medical device companies, as well as research grants.
Looking at Buffalos natural strengths:
1) UBs supercomputers and UBs access to ultrahighspeed networks that pass thru Buffalo...yet still no Center for Excellence in anything related to Networking, Computers, Storage, Internet, Ecommerce, EBusiness, etc.
2) Buffalos historical strength in Materials: Ceramics, Gases, Plastics, Chemicals, Metals and now Nanomaterials...yet still no Center for Excellence
3) Buffalos historical strength in Transportation, Logistics, Distribution, Warehouse, Supply Chain Management, International Trade, Import/Export Customs, etc. Yet still no Center for Excellence.
4) Buffalo Niagaras historical strength in Power Generation. We are the home of Tesla's AC power! Plus we have Coal, Oil, Gas, Wood, Ethanol, Biodiesel, Hydro, Passive Geothermal, Wind, Solar, etc. Yet still no Center for Excellence in Power Generation, Power Distribution and Power Management.
5) Buffalo Niagaras historical strength in Banking and Finance is another.
ITS NOT JUST CENTERS FOR EXCELLENCE...UBs SMALL BUSINESS INCUBATORS ARE ONLY A FRACTION OF THE SIZE THAT THEY SHOULD BE AND UB SHOULD NOT BE THE ONLY ONE. BUFFALO STATE AND NIAGARA UNIVERSITY AND CANISIUS SHOULD HAVE SMALL BUSINESS INCUBATORS ALSO!
When I say that UB is not a major research university...I judge it by the facts...that its research effort is still in such a state of infancy that it so far has only established 1 Center for Excellence and 1 small business incubator...and its public-private partnership is still in its infancy (my opinion).
June 6, 2009 6:41 AM
I just finished a job involving door-to-door canvassing on more than 400 blocks between Niagara Street and the 198. I walked for 7 weeks on streets which I thought were familiar. yet hadn't seen for 5-10 years - and was shocked every day. Empty houses, burned houses, empty lots, empty BLOCKS, no stores, crumbling sidewalks, people completely demoralized, squatters, drug use and dealing, etc. Less than 10% of what I saw, east of Main St, is worth saving. Even the Mayor's block has houses ready for demolition. The sad sights were almost overwhelming.
The pockets of supposed good fortune look bad, too - Allen Street is half abandoned, Elmwood has dozens of vacant stores, and Hertel is rapidly deteriorating.
Buffalo is impoverished, neglected, nearly hopeless, and completely focused on the Poverty Industry - any perceived progress is from heavily tax-subsidized projects which benefit only the political machine which owns Buffalo & its suburban "developers". Our Mayor has one purpose: to enrich himself, his cronies and his political supporters.
Best thing that could happen to Buffalo: elimination of every State and Federal subsidy program. All of that money is stolen by the machine and used against the citizens of this city. "Friends and Family" get everything in Buffalo - the rest of us are out in the cold.
June 6, 2009 11:09 AM
You are entitled to your opinion of course but I have to take exception with your view on hertel allen and elmwood. Take a look at recent sales in either of these neighborhoods over the past ten years and you will see a steady increase in sale prices. That includes the past few years when prices nationwide fell through the floor.
June 7, 2009 8:06 PM
Go walk the length the Allen, then Elmwood from Allen to Forest, and then Hertel from Elmwood to Main - count the vacant storefronts. I won't even suggest a walk on Grant Street, where my windshield was smashed while I shopped (for the last time) at Guercio's.
Buffalo isn't going to disappear, but it's not through shrinking.
June 7, 2009 8:25 PM
I do on a regular basis. Pretty vibrant places if you ask me. Try looking at the real estate prices for homes in these areas. Homes that are kept up sell witin a week usualy with multiple bids.
Other people have mentioned these parts of town are declining or in danger of decline. Well once the bidding wars stop on the houses in these neighborhoods, then I will start to worry.
Im sorry about your windshield. Its a pretty lousy feeling having your property messed with. But try not to let a random act by a couple of cowards ruin your impression of the city.
June 6, 2009 2:38 PM
Buffalo is poised for a comeback. A lot of well meaning groups who cover well the areas of interests are in place. but Buffalo needs one more thing: a draw, an attraction,a reason. Unlike Niagara Falls, there is nothing uniquely special. Sorry folks, whatever restaurant/hotel you put near the canal is going to do the job. The city has to look south to that incredible waterfront. Put an attraction there that can handle the weather most of the year, and the city has a draw. It has to be big!
Yes, people are retuning to the downtown area. It will not revitalize it on its own. It draws locals.
Build something people want, something the tourists to the falls would like to extend their trips to experience, and the city might make it. Have the rail system to carry then directly from the airport. Anyone got a better idea to a)keep citizens here, b) provide jobs for locals, or c) get tourists with dollars here?
They come through our airport now to see only one thing which is in a different county but not so far away. I saw Dennis Judd who wrote "Cities and Tourists" speak. His concept has merit!
June 6, 2009 3:23 PM
I knew youd have fun with the healthcare stuff.
Look power and electricity alone are not going to bring in employment as you have pointed out in the lack of job creation. Labor costs and clean land are factors that are holding us back. Not to mention the cheap electricity is tough to get as the google people could tell you. Although the Niagara Power Project kicks up tons of clean, reliable low cost power the cost of electricity to all but a few employers is driven up by factors including taxes on private producers and low output-high cost power plants (nuke plant in Oswego) on the grid.
And no manufacturing is not dead in the US as it isnt dead in Buffalo. I will say that as a nation we are becoming less competitive as producers although we consume so much. I didnt click the link you posted but the piece you pasted implies that as a nation our role as a producer is trending down. Why would a steel or auto maker build a factory in WNY when they can get the same cheap power and fresh water in southern Ontario and not pay the high costs of health benifits? How do you like that? Canada, as well as Germany and Japan, whos laws and customs and taxes would be labled socialist by some if implemented in the US, are beating us out for private sector investment in auto manufacturing.
As far as your West Virginia-Ohio comparison I know those places pay less wages than the UAW factories up here. If Toyota, Honda or Huyandi were to locate in WNY would they have to hire UAW workers? (Not a rhetorical question. I dont know if labor contracts apply to all companys that seek to build autos in a geographic area or if it is just a contract between labor and the big three US companies). If this were the case than we are at a sizable disadvantage to these states but this is somthing that could be changed. It would be a lot easier to change a law or union contract than it would be to aquire the cheap power and water that we already have. If WNY had better acces to power, water and competitive labor costs we would be a much more attractive industrial site than either of those two places.
The point of pointing out two major ingredients to heavy industry that still exist in WNY was to show that heavy industry is not as far away as people think. If cheap power were easier to get and healthcare was nationalized, and labor costs were more competitive, WNY would be better equiped to compete with the likes of Southern Ontario, West Virginia or China.
June 6, 2009 8:48 PM
pit>"the piece you pasted implies that as a nation our role as a producer is trending down"
Not really. U.S. manufacturing output grows every year, except for pauses during recessions. It's a trending-down _percent_ of global manufacturing output because manufacturing output of some other countries is growing so much faster. Switching from communism to mostly-capitalism unleashed China, for example. Trending-down percents don't necessarily mean trending-down output.
June 6, 2009 9:00 PM
pit>"Why would a steel or auto maker build a factory in WNY when they can get the same cheap power and fresh water in southern Ontario and not pay the high costs of health benifits?"
Based on that logic, why would Honda build so many plants in Ohio with 40,000 jobs instead of putting them in Ontario right across Lake Erie?
Canada has much lower manufacturing output per capita than the U.S produces per capita, despite Canada having a govt-controlled health care system for a long time. Looking at that, the U.S. must be a better place for manufacturing than Canada.
Regardless, there's no reason to think nationwide health care changes would result in WNY attracting more manufacturing sector jobs relative to other parts of the U.S. - so that's the real issue, not being competitive with other U.S. states. The health care debate may be interesting by itself, but a red herring that way.
Wages paid by Toyota in W.V. and Honda in Ohio aren't low by standards of average WNYers, but to answer your question, as far as I know neither company's U.S. plants have ever been unionized. I think the UAW tried organizing some and never succeeded.
June 7, 2009 1:50 PM
A few final thoughts on WNY heavy industry prospects.
Maybe comparing Canada to Ohio or the US for industrial activity is unfair considering much of canada is remote and or agricultural. I should have been more specific and said southern Ontario. I dont think there would be a way to compare industrial production between a portion of ontario and the state of Ohio but based on my personal observations the industrial belt of Ontario is doing much better than Ohio as a whole. Driving down the QEW you can see factories humming along and freighters floating in the harbors. While the Ohio ive seen save for a more progressive greater Columbus area look very much like the rust belt WNY knows. As you pointed out in the big investment by Honda, Ohio is more "industry friendly" than NYS but I dont think we are that far off. In fact I think we are just a few tweaks from be better than Ohio and Southern Ontario for heavy industry.
What holds WNY back? Why is this region, once a very important player in the nations manufacturing for over a century now in a 40 year run for industrial decline? Taxes? Maybe. It certainly isnt to our advantage being in the highest taxed state in the union. All things being equal site selectors are going to choose a the location with a better value such as Ohio or West Va. but if you consider WNYs assets to heavy production the tax discrepancy could be offset. After all wernt taxes high in the glory days of local industrial production? And again, if taxes were standing in the way why is Southern Ontario with higher taxes doing much better attracting manufacturing? More than taxes I think the high cost of labor has contributed to the local decline of industry. I think these days local unions are more willing to accept wages that are more competitive with other states. Stable, national health care would further lower labor costs for Buffalo and the rest of the nation.
If you have ever been inside a factory like the Ford Stamping Plant or the GM Engine Plant youd see that this type of facility has tons of heavy equipment that must require a huge ammount of electricity. Other factories such as steel requre a similar amount of electricity and large quantities of fresh water. (est 16 mil gallons a day at Beths Lackawana plant) I would guess that a factory such as this the utility bills are much more of a factor on costs than the tax bill. Our cheap power from the local power plant and our vast amount of fresh water from the lake and river combined with lower labor costs, could be used to attract companies to WNY over Ohio W Va or the carolinas for that matter. Dont forget WNY was just an uncooperative Power Authority away from recently adding a steel plant in Niagara County.
The whole purpose for bringing up the topic of heavy industry was to counter the popular belief that this sector of the local economy cant come back. I for one think that hydropower and plentiful fresh water combined with improved labor-management relations, streamlined metropolitan government, national controls on healthcare costs and yes lower taxes would create a good environment in WNY for heavy industry to grow and prosper again. It is a much safer bet to count on the trends of the past 40 years to continue but why not use our still prevalent advantages that brought industry to the region many years ago to start a new trend and bring on an industrial renaissance?
June 7, 2009 6:24 PM
Most of Canada's population isn't in the remote agricultural parts of it. A lot of the U.S. land is agricultural too. Per-capita (per person, so vast empty parts don't matter), the U.S. produces more manufacturing output per year than Canada does.
Instead of Canada, I could have said France, England, or others. France and England also have govt-run health care systems, yet like Canada those have less per capita (per person) manufacturing output than the U.S. produces.
I'm not picking on Canada, but using them as a nearby example of how the excuse that lack of a govt-run health care system is a reason for Buffalo to lose so many manufacturing jobs doesn't add up to me. For one thing, Buffalo loses many jobs to other parts of the U.S. obviously. For another thing, some nations with govt-run health care have more per-capita manufacturing production that the U.S., and some (such as Canada) produce less per person than the U.S. Impacts are complex. It's one factor among many, and even in Canada, England, and France the money for health care doesn't grow on trees.
Govt-run health care is an interesting topic, but not a major reason for Buffalo's economic trends compared to the rest of the U.S.
And in general, foreign countries aren't the big issue when there's so much difficultly competing with most or all of our other 49 states.
June 7, 2009 6:52 PM
"It is a much safer bet to count on the trends of the past 40 years to continue but why not use our still prevalent advantages that brought industry to the region many years ago to start a new trend and bring on an industrial renaissance?"
Being on a Great Lake just doesn't seem to matter as much to as many companies as it did 100 years ago or even 50 years ago. Same with Niagara hydropower.
My only guess is that other business factors must outweigh those things. Maybe fresh water from the many rivers across the U.S. is as sufficient to most co's as being on a Great Lake. And maybe most of the benefit of Lake Erie access was for shipping, and now other alternatives have replaced that.
It's not just heavy industry that's at issue. Remember those 3 less-heavier co's who announced departure from WNY a couple weeks ago. One made modern hydraulic products for trucks, another made medical and veterinary equipment, and one made science education products. Something like 180 jobs among those 3 co's. Those add up too.
With the hydropower, for better or worse the state govt owns it, or at least legally controls it. They consider it a resource of the entire state and allocate only so much of it for cheap sale. I don't know how that can be changed or if it's even practical to change it very much.
June 7, 2009 2:08 AM
Queencity,
A few points:
-Canisius does have a small business incubator.
-I judge a major research university by membership in the most select organization of research universities in the country--the American Assocation of Universities. Their high standards judge by quality of academic programs and research. By any academic standard UB is considered a major research university. The business sector is not a qualified arbiter of what constitutes a major research university.
-UB is the area's largest employer; it has internationally recognized collections; it has Nobel and Pulitzer prize winners; it has dozens of doctoral and professional programs and an internationnaly recognized center for bioinformatics.
-I question the urgency to look at New York State's poorest city, Rochester, as a model for a city "coming back."
June 7, 2009 7:08 PM
NY was onc e agreat stae, Buffalo is still charming. Taxes are killing both.
June 7, 2009 7:34 PM
Whatever, what's your source for per capita manufacturing data? I've understood that Germany has had higher manufacturing output per capita than the US for years and the following data table, although a bit old, indicates that the US has fallen far lower:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ind_man_val_add_cur_us_percap-added-current-us-per-capita
I'm sure current statistics would be more discouraging. With that said, I don't think western New York will see more heavy manufacturing opportunities. Now can you work on that YouTube video about traffic on the 190?
June 7, 2009 11:48 PM
paul>"Whatever, what's your source for per capita manufacturing data? I've understood that Germany has had higher manufacturing output per capita than the US for years and the following data table, although a bit old, indicates that the US has fallen far lower"
I didn't mention Germany. As I wrote, some nations are higher than the U.S. In that list you link, Germany ranked higher for that as of 2004.
My source? I didn't want to hide behind data. More personal and emotional this way. New approach to increase my approval ratings.
No, but seriously... there's sources, and it looks like in newer data as of 2007, Germany ranks worse then the U.S., just barely.
From
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/india-among-top-12-manufacturers-finds-unido/444286/
"The Financial Express: April 08, 2009 New Delhi: United Nations Industrial Development Organisation (Unido) found that the share of developing countries in the world’s manufacturing value-added output has almost doubled in the last 18 years due to the shift of production units and outsourcing of services from developed nations.
Unido in the International Yearbook of Industrial Statistics 2009 stated that developing countries produced almost 30% of world manufacturing value added (MVA) at the end of 2008 as compared to 16% in 1990. The per capita MVA doubled as early as 2006, while the industrialised world achieved merely 30% increase, it added.
...According to Unido analysis based on 2007 figures, India ranks among the top 12 producers of MVA. ... Among industrialised countries, Japan accounts for most MVA per capita, followed by Switzerland, Singapore, Ireland, Finland, Sweden, USA, Germany and Austria.
Luxemburg, Republic of Korea, Denmark, Iceland, Canada, Belgium, United Kingdom, Norway, Netherlands, Italy and France come lower down the list. ..."
So according to that, the U.S. edges out Germany and is well above Canada, the U.K, and France, among others.
June 8, 2009 12:02 AM
Here's similar ranking (Competitive Industrial Performance) from the U.N. very recently that includes manufacturing value added per capita and some other measures combined, Ch 11 here, from 2005:
http://www.unido.org/fileadmin/user_media/Publications/IDR/2009/IDR_2009_print.PDF
In that one, Germany ranks higher than the U.S., but the UK and France are behind us, Canada even further down the list.
The U.S. still ranks well for these kind of manufacturing/industrial rankings (#11 out of 122 in that).
Here's another, not manufacturing per capita, but a much broader "global competitiveness" ranking from the World Economic Forum for Global Competitiveness.
http://www.allcountries.org/ranks/global_competitiveness_index_2008-2009.html
1 United States 5.74
2 Switzerland 5.61
3 Denmark 5.58
4 Sweden 5.53
5 Singapore 5.53
6 Finland 5.50
7 Germany 5.46
8 Netherlands 5.41
9 Japan 5.38
10 Canada 5.37
11 Hong Kong SAR 5.33
12 United Kingdom 5.30
13 Korea, Rep. 5.28
14 Austria 5.23
15 Norway 5.22
16 France 5.22
... full list of 134 nations at link above.
June 8, 2009 10:09 AM
The global competitiveness numbers don't isolate manufacturing, so I'm not sure why you included it.
Your previous references list industrial performance on page 118 (of the 'unido' file). The rankings are:
1. Singapore
2. Ireland
3. Japan
4. Switzerland
5. Sweden
6. Germany
7. Finland
8. Belgium
9. South Korea
10. China
11. United States
This compares 2000 to 2005 and the United States went from ninth place to 11th place. (I may have missed your specific reference in over 100 pages, but I didn't find any chart that listed the U.S. as number one in manufacturing.) In this economic climate, countries may move up/down one or two levels on a list, but the trend seems clear: on a per capita basis, U.S. manufacturing may not be disappearing but it is in certain decline.
June 8, 2009 3:17 PM
And look at the nations topping your list. Ireland? Japan? those economies are in freefall. Singapore has been ravaged by China's grab for manufacturing share and it's crown jewel, the Port Of Singapore is under pressure from China and Dubai. The only thing preventing those european countries from fully de-industrializing are the protectionist unions and their political stranglehold on Europe. Meanwhile, it's entirely possible for the US to remain just behind China on lists such as this, but from a very great distance...
June 8, 2009 5:58 PM
There's an error in what you wrote:
"9. South Korea
10. China
11. United States"
#10 on that page says Taiwan, not China as you wrote. Economically, there's a huge difference. China is actually way down that list at #26, still at that point in time ahead of Malta and Slovakia:
"23. Denmark
24. Hungary 0.436 0.415
25. Thailand
26. China
27. Malta
28. Slovakia"
June 8, 2009 6:06 PM
paul>"The global competitiveness numbers don't isolate manufacturing, so I'm not sure why you included it."
I wrote that the latter ref doesn't isolate per-capita manufacturing, so I'm not sure why you repeated that either. As usual, we're both not sure why the other wrote what we wrote. Life is full of unsureness. But those competitiveness numbers do account for manufacturing and many other factors as I said. Anyone can read or ignore as they wish.
The first two refs I linked do isolate manufacturing: 2008 per-capita MVA reported by Financial Express, and the U.N.'s 2005/2000 CIP index rankings which includes per-capita MVA with their other industrial measures as explained at the link.
June 8, 2009 6:09 PM
paul>"on a per capita basis, U.S. manufacturing may not be disappearing but it is in certain decline"
"May not" be? U.S. manufacturing is nowhere near "disappearing". Neither is WNY's manufacturing, and for the sake of WNY's prosperity it had better not.
By the U.N.'s CIP index which includes per-capita manufacturing and other industrial measures, the U.S. fell only very slightly from 2000 to 2005. Canada and England, both with rather different politics than the U.S. in some ways, both fell even more than the U.S. in that same index and time frame.
I might be wrong, but you sound argumentative and I don't know why. Are you arguing anything I wrote, or anything you're guesssing I'm thinking? Maybe you're not arguing at all. I can't tell.
Careful reading shows I first mentioned per-capita manufacturing output in response to someone's blaming lack of a govt-controlled health care system for Buffalo's manufacturing issues. My point was that some nations which have full govt-controlled heath care like Canada, England, and some others are ranked lower in per-capita manufacturing output than the U.S. That's confirmed in both the 2007 MVA rankings I cited (which you asked me to post) and 2004 version you linked. And some with govt-controlled heath care rank higher as I noted. I've no reason to think that policy change would make WNY be better competitive with the other 49 U.S. states, but if anybody wants to think that they can.
June 8, 2009 6:21 PM
Whatever, no argument. Just seeking your clarification. Are you making a connection between per capita manufacturing and national healthcare? I don't see one as a result of another. Actually, one reason Toyota located their latest manufacturing plant in Canada is because of their national healthcare. They cited it is a reduced overall expense for them when compared to US sites.
June 8, 2009 8:38 PM
Nope, wasn't claiming a cause-effect in the opposite direction. Just offered counter-examples about a generalized cause-effect I thought somebody else claimed.
I pointed out some advanced industrialized nations who've for a long time had fully govt-controlled health care yet had worse (sometimes worsening) performance of manufacturing per capita than the U.S. has had. No doubt there's examples in which that was one factor cited for choosing Canada (or England or France) as in your example, and also there's other examples in which it hasn't mattered. Even Toyota has chosen the U.S. in many more cases than Canada, and Honda's choices in Ohio, on and on. I haven't seen a big move toward Canada over all these years.
Regarding Buffalo-WNY-Upstate, as I said the competition is much more with other U.S. states. If it can't compete well with those, I'm very hesitant to blame foreign competition - especially when the U.S. is generally still strong for manufacturing output vs. the rest of the world.
June 8, 2009 9:35 PM
Yes, I agree that the competition is between western New York and other states.
When you get the 190 YouTube video made, I hope you'll enter it in the Buffalo Film Festival. :)
June 8, 2009 6:29 PM
I am fairly new to Buffalo. I live in Riverside with my husband. I moved here from the clean and lovely suburbs of Rochester. One thing that has really bothered me since I moved here, is the trash and litter that blows through Buffalo. I see people throwing their used Tim Horton cups out of their cars onto the streets....I have approached these people and have kindly picked up their trash for them. However, I am afraid that I may get hurt doing this. I am infuriated with the indifference and lack of enforcement for keeping our city, streets, rivers clean and our wild life safe. Where are the campaigns for preventing littering? If NY state needs money so badly why aren't we fining and warning people that if you litter,you get a ticket. Is there any enforcement for the littering laws here? We have Buffalo trash cans with the "Olmsted Park" printed on them. Instead perhaps we should print on them..."Keep NY Beautiful...Do not Litter! $250 fine enforced". There should be signs up all over the place for this. People tell me that is the least of our problems in Buffalo, but I believe a clean neighborhood is a good place to start.
June 9, 2009 7:34 PM
I agree. A clean city is crucial to any new steps being taken within a city like Buffalo. Though, we are rated as one of the cleanest US cities for population size (Rochester didn't make the cut- not large enough). So, I wouldn't complain about it too much, but I agree it definitely needs to be addressed and enforced.